Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 I am left wondering what is the exact place of +ACI-recepies+ACI- when one is focused in finding the real caustive factor. Undaubtdly recepies - as we have discussed before - have some relative value. So , maybe one could say: - Recepies may be useful tools when regarding simptoms that need urgent remedy. Be it because one will loose the patient, be it because indeed the patient is in great distress, be it with the intention of lifting the patient's moral. (and I ask the 5E practicioners whether I am correct or not) So in the case of dermatosis, if it is the small intestine that is distressed (p. ex.), and is unable to separate the good from the bad +ACI-food+ACI- and thus it is poisoning the blood, the lung official may be very successfuly eliminating the poison thru the skin. Now if we are sucessfull in supress this drainage - what will happen? The small int. is still sick, so the poison will now be deviated to god knows where... ...left wondering... -geo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hello Geovani, In my experience most Acupuncturists rely on symptomatic receipts and 5 elements to come up with a treatment, and this is not good or is it the traditional method of treating, It is far better to also have a good understanding of the 8 conditions. Because every disease or problem has one or more conditions attached to it, how can you treat correctly if you don't know what to do with the needles after you have inserted them, the 8 conditions will tell you what meridians to choose in your diagnosis and how to treat the points after you have chosen them. e.g. needle shao fa, sedation or tonification, moxa, and length and frequency of treatments, etc. Recipes have their place if you are unable to diagnose exactly what meridians or points to choose, this is how acup has developed over the centuries with the loss of traditional understanding of the original sciences that make up a Acup treatment. Originally a Traditional Chinese Doctor had the ability to put 3 or more of the sciences together and come up with very effective treatments. Far stronger than our present results using only one science for a treatment. There are only a handful of truly traditional Doctors alive today who have the ability to put the sciences together and who have a full understanding of all of the sciences. These people usually don't pass on this knowledge, that is why it is not taught today even in China, because they don't know. Yes, there is a place for receipes today, and some of them are excelent, but should only hold them in reserve if a traditional treatment is difficult to diagnose or you dont get the results you expect. Cheers Murray. - geovani +ADw-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AD4- +ADw-acupuncture+AEA-+AD4- Friday, March 10, 2000 10:13 AM +AFs-acupuncture+AF0- 5-E and recipies... +AD4- +ACI-geovani+ACI- +ADw-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I am left wondering what is the exact place of +ACI-recepies+ACI- +AD4- when one is focused in finding the real caustive factor. +AD4- Undaubtdly recepies - as we have discussed before - +AD4- have some relative value. So , maybe one could say: +AD4- - Recepies may be useful tools when regarding simptoms +AD4- that need urgent remedy. Be it because one will loose +AD4- the patient, be it because indeed the patient is in great +AD4- distress, be it with the intention of lifting the patient's moral. +AD4- (and I ask the 5E practicioners whether I am correct or not) +AD4- +AD4- So in the case of dermatosis, if it is the small intestine that +AD4- is distressed (p. ex.), and is unable to separate the good from the +AD4- bad +ACI-food+ACI- and thus it is poisoning the blood, the lung official +AD4- may be very successfuly eliminating the poison thru the skin. +AD4- Now if we are sucessfull in supress this drainage - what will +AD4- happen? The small int. is still sick, so the poison will now +AD4- be deviated to god knows where... ...left wondering... +AD4- +AD4- -geo- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- ------ +AD4- DON'T HATE YOUR RATE+ACE- +AD4- Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds+ACE- Get rates as low as +AD4- 0.0+ACU- Intro or 9.9+ACU- Fixed APR and no hidden fees. +AD4- Apply NOW+ACE- +AD4- http://click./1/2120/1/+AF8-/331483/+AF8-/952647185/ +AD4- ------ +AD4- +AD4- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 FYI I tried to check out +ADwAPA-Dialogues on 5-E acupuncture, go to: www. and find 5E+AF8-acup +AD4APg- but search returned zero. I enjoy the discussions on 5 Elements. IT would have been my preference in School except the California State Board has little to do with it. Ed Kasper L.Ac. edkasper+AEA-pacbell.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 +AD4- +ACI-geovani+ACI- +ADw-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I am left wondering what is the exact place of +ACI-recepies+ACI- +AD4- when one is focused in finding the real caustive factor. +AD4- Undaubtdly recepies - as we have discussed before - +AD4- have some relative value. So , maybe one could say: +AD4- - Recepies may be useful tools when regarding simptoms +AD4- that need urgent remedy. Be it because one will loose +AD4- the patient, be it because indeed the patient is in great +AD4- distress, be it with the intention of lifting the patient's moral. +AD4- (and I ask the 5E practicioners whether I am correct or not) +AD4- +AD4- So in the case of dermatosis, if it is the small intestine that +AD4- is distressed (p. ex.), and is unable to separate the good from the +AD4- bad +ACI-food+ACI- and thus it is poisoning the blood, the lung official +AD4- may be very successfuly eliminating the poison thru the skin. +AD4- Now if we are sucessfull in supress this drainage - what will +AD4- happen? The small int. is still sick, so the poison will now +AD4- be deviated to god knows where... ...left wondering... +AD4- +AD4- -geo- +ACI-murray cole+ACI- +ADw-murrayc+AEA-primus.com.au+AD4- Hello Geovani, In my experience most Acupuncturists rely on symptomatic receipts and 5 elements to come up with a treatment, and this is not good or is it the traditional method of treating, It is far better to also have a good understanding of the 8 conditions. Because every disease or problem has one or more conditions attached to it, how can you treat correctly if you don't know what to do with the needles after you have inserted them, the 8 conditions will tell you what meridians to choose in your diagnosis and how to treat the points after you have chosen them. e.g. needle shao fa, sedation or tonification, moxa, and length and frequency of treatments, etc. Recipes have their place if you are unable to diagnose exactly what meridians or points to choose, this is how acup has developed over the centuries with the loss of traditional understanding of the original sciences that make up a Acup treatment. Originally a Traditional Chinese Doctor had the ability to put 3 or more of the sciences together and come up with very effective treatments. Far stronger than our present results using only one science for a treatment. There are only a handful of truly traditional Doctors alive today who have the ability to put the sciences together and who have a full understanding of all of the sciences. These people usually don't pass on this knowledge, that is why it is not taught today even in China, because they don't know. Yes, there is a place for receipes today, and some of them are excelent, but should only hold them in reserve if a traditional treatment is difficult to diagnose or you dont get the results you expect. Cheers Murray. geovani+AD4- Thanks Murray. I understand what you are saying up to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far. There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, and the more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of the imbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a second and third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditions that you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call 5E) states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrent of ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairs of the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can not be acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation and domination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could cause one particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles. So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element if we look for it in the +ACI-spirit+ACI- - roughfly, a level of the mental and the emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should be identified. How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to the above? Unfortunatly I am very +ACI-green+ACI- in the understanding of this traditional +ACI-energetic level+ACI- approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here) will go into it soon... +AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwB\ fAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8- +AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA\ 9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0- Dialogues on 5-E acupuncture, go to: www. and find 5E+AF8-acup -welcome- +AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA\ 9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2000 Report Share Posted March 12, 2000 +ADwAIQ-DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC +ACI--//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN+ACIAPg- +ADw-HTML+AD4- +ADw-HEAD+AD4- +ADw-META content+AD0-text/html+ADs-charset+AD0-utf-7 http-equiv+AD0-Content-Type+AD4- +ADw-META content+AD0-'+ACI-MSHTML 4.72.2106.6+ACI-' name+AD0-GENERATOR+AD4- +ADw-/HEAD+AD4- +ADw-BODY+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT face+AD0-Arial size+AD0-2+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-/FONT+AD4-Ed Kasper +ACY-lt+ADsAPA-A href+AD0AIg-edkasper+AEA-pacbell.net+ACIAPg-edkasper+AEA-pacbell.net+ADw-/A+AD4AJg-gt+ADsAPA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-FYI I tried to check out+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-lt+ADsAJg-lt+ADs-Dialogues on 5-E acupuncture, go to:+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-A href+AD0AIg-+ACIAPg-www.+ADw-/A+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- and find+ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- 5E+AF8-acup +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- but search returned zero.+ADw-BR+AD4-I enjoy the discussions on 5 Elements. IT would have been my preference in School except the California State Board has little to do with it.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ed Kasper L.Ac.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-A href+AD0AIg-edkasper+AEA-pacbell.net+ACIAPg-edkasper+AEA-pacbell.net+ADw-/A+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4APA-FONT color+AD0AIw-000000+AD4-geovani+ACY-gt+ADs- Yes....onelist has some bugs sometimes...they+ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT color+AD0AIw-000000+AD4APA-/FONT+AD4-are fixing it. Try this adresses:+ADw-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPg-Addresses:+ADw-BR+AD4-Post message: +ADw-A href+AD0AIg-5E+AF8-acup+AEA-+ACIAPg-5E+AF8-acup+AEA-+ADw-/A+AD4- +ADw-BR+AD4-Subscribe:+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-A href+AD0AIg-5E+AF8-acup-+AEA-+ACIAPg-5E+AF8-acup-+AEA-+ADw-/A+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-BR+AD4-Un:+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-A href+AD0AIg-5E+AF8-acup-+AEA-+ACIAPg-5E+AF8-acup-+AEA-+ADw-/A+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-BR+AD4-List owner:+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-A href+AD0AIg-5E+AF8-acup-owner+AEA-+ACIAPg-5E+AF8-acup-owner+AEA-+ADw-/A+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-BR+AD4-URL to this page: +ADw-A href+AD0AIg-5E+AF8-acup+ACIAPg-5E+AF8-acup+ADw-/A+AD4- +ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-BR+AD4-Options:+ADw-BR+AD4AJg-bull+ADs- Listed in directory +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-bull+ADs- Open membership +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-bull+ADs- Unmoderated +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-bull+ADs- All members may post +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-bull+ADs- Primary language: English +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-bull+ADs- Archives for members only +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/DIV+AD4- +ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT style+AD0AIg-BACKGROUND-COLOR: +ACM-ffffff+ACIAPgA8-/FONT+AD4APA-BR+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-------+ADw-BR+AD4-GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds+ACEAJg-nbsp+ADs- Get rates as low as 0.0+ACU- +ADw-BR+AD4-Intro or 9.9+ACU- Fixed APR and no hidden fees.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Apply NOW+ACEAPA-BR+AD4APA-A href+AD0AIg-http://click./1/937/1/+AF8-/331483/+AF8-/952739730/+ACIAPg-http://click./1/937/1/+AF8-/331483/+AF8-/952739730/+ADw-/A+AD4APA-BR+AD4-------+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4APA-/BODY+AD4APA-/HTML+AD4- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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