5E and 8 conditions

[Guest guest]

geovani> Thanks Murray. I understand what you are sayingup to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far.There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, andthe more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of theimbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a secondand third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditionsthat you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call 5E)states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrentof ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairsof the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can notbe acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation anddomination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could causeone particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles.So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element ifwe look for it in the "spirit" - roughfly, a level of the mental andthe emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should beidentified.

 

How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to theabove? Unfortunatly I am very "green" in the understanding of thistraditional "energetic level" approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here)will go into it soon...

 

Hi Geovani, First you need to choose the correct meridian or meridians, by selecting the symptoms that match the meridian indications, [if you don't have this info let me know and I'll send it to your email address. The 8 conditions are how you treat the selected points, because each disease has 1 or more condition attached to it. E.G. it can be like a day, each day has conditions, it could be windy, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, raining,snowing etc.

 

Its the same with a problem or disease,it also has a condition, [ most acupuncturists think that the patient has the conditions] this is not correct, the condition belongs to the disease, it's the disease that changes the bodies energy each time you see them, as you know the disease changes for all sorts of reasons, as it goes deeper or gets better, the symptoms change.

 

You are correct when you say the organ needs to be identified first, you cannot diagnose properly by picking the emotions, when you treat a person you mostly have an effect on the physical about 90%, and 10% approx on the mental or emotional, but no acupuncture has an affect on the spiritual, it never has and it never will, this a great misunderstanding and mistranslation. This idea was introduced over the centuries,after the original sciences were developed and has no basis in the original sciences.

 

Only the person can change the spiritual, if they want to. This is a very important point and will help you sort the real practitioners from the esoterical types, remember that Acupuncture is very real, people are real, disease is real, treat what is real, what you can see and touch. Don't bring spiritual ideas into your acupuncture, keep them separate and you will be safe and on the road to being a useful practitioner to your patients.They are 2 different areas.

 

If you can't understand an answer that you are given, keep asking the practitioner or teacher and if it is no clearer or they say you will understand one day, give them a miss because they don't know themselves. With a good understsnding of Acupuncture anyone can give you a clear easy understood explanation.

 

I hope I don't offend or upset anyone, but I also was fooled for years on these points. I hope I have been able to help you a little. Cheers Murray.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, "treat what is real, what you can see and touch", and sense, of course. And I think you con not be a good acupunctorist if you don't practice Qigong and sense the energy, yours and the patient's. So I "touch" this energy and I have more information about treatments and deseases, so when you say esoteric, you refer to energy? If you'd believe in Qi, you probably would be thinking in a different way... You don't treat the patient, you don't treat his soul, you don't treat even a desease. You are treating the sum of this, plus yourself your own energy, mixed with the station, the moon day, etc. All this, that nowadays is not so taught into Chinese Universities as before, because of politician interests...

More decades will be passing by before we could understand acupuncture science (and all the books that burnt out... all that information we won't able ever to read).

I think scientific acupuncture is usefull: recipes, french acupuncture, because we are helping people and our body is able to adapt to any condition, so even if you do something not very clear, the damage won't be so bad with this, no side-effects, and somtimes this acupuncture is what a patient needs, and not the "sindromes" and so on. And sometimes you should consider there's something beyond, related to energy levels, but not because you won't be able to find an explanation. If you don't know what is happening, then you don't know it, is not spiritual or energy, just you don't know it. But when is energy, when is Shen, when is the sum of all factors, when you feel there's something beyond and can feel it with your hands, then is this, is not quimic, is not desease, maybe is just this you feel, and it has no name, at least a Wester name, maybe is because in chinese they are talking with ideograms.

I don't know if I am explaining myself, that you have to conseider it all, and that you don't know, you don't know it, just it. And recipes are good. Our work is to find the place for every technique, and trying to help as best as posible, without pullin' the leg to our patients, nor the money out.

 

Muchas gracias por su atención,

Thank you very much for all your attention,

 

Josep Carrion.

 

jcarrionterapeuta

 

-----Mensaje original-----De: murray cole [murrayc]Enviado el: sábado, 11 de marzo de 2000 10:38Para: acupuncture onelistAsunto: acupuncture 5E and 8 conditions"murray cole" <murrayc

geovani> Thanks Murray. I understand what you are sayingup to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far.There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, andthe more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of theimbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a secondand third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditionsthat you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call 5E)states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrentof ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairsof the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can notbe acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation anddomination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could causeone particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles.So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element ifwe look for it in the "spirit" - roughfly, a level of the mental andthe emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should beidentified.

 

How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to theabove? Unfortunatly I am very "green" in the understanding of thistraditional "energetic level" approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here)will go into it soon...

 

Hi Geovani, First you need to choose the correct meridian or meridians, by selecting the symptoms that match the meridian indications, [if you don't have this info let me know and I'll send it to your email address. The 8 conditions are how you treat the selected points, because each disease has 1 or more condition attached to it. E.G. it can be like a day, each day has conditions, it could be windy, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, raining,snowing etc.

 

Its the same with a problem or disease,it also has a condition, [ most acupuncturists think that the patient has the conditions] this is not correct, the condition belongs to the disease, it's the disease that changes the bodies energy each time you see them, as you know the disease changes for all sorts of reasons, as it goes deeper or gets better, the symptoms change.

 

You are correct when you say the organ needs to be identified first, you cannot diagnose properly by picking the emotions, when you treat a person you mostly have an effect on the physical about 90%, and 10% approx on the mental or emotional, but no acupuncture has an affect on the spiritual, it never has and it never will, this a great misunderstanding and mistranslation. This idea was introduced over the centuries,after the original sciences were developed and has no basis in the original sciences.

 

Only the person can change the spiritual, if they want to. This is a very important point and will help you sort the real practitioners from the esoterical types, remember that Acupuncture is very real, people are real, disease is real, treat what is real, what you can see and touch. Don't bring spiritual ideas into your acupuncture, keep them separate and you will be safe and on the road to being a useful practitioner to your patients.They are 2 different areas.

 

If you can't understand an answer that you are given, keep asking the practitioner or teacher and if it is no clearer or they say you will understand one day, give them a miss because they don't know themselves. With a good understsnding of Acupuncture anyone can give you a clear easy understood explanation.

 

I hope I don't offend or upset anyone, but I also was fooled for years on these points. I hope I have been able to help you a little. Cheers Murray.

 

 

[Guest guest]

geovani> Thanks Murray. I understand what you are saying

up to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far.

There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, and

the more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of the

imbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a second

and third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditions

that you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call 5E)

states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrent

of ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairs

of the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can not

be acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation and

domination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could cause

one particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles.

 

So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element if

we look for it in the " spirit " - roughfly, a level of the mental and

the emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should be

identified.

 

How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to the

above? Unfortunatly I am very " green " in the understanding of this

traditional " energetic level " approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here)

will go into it soon...

 

 

---

 

Hi Geovani, First you need to choose the correct meridian or meridians, by

selecting the symptoms

that match the meridian indications, [if you don't have this info let me know

and I'll send it to

your email address. The 8 conditions are how you treat the selected points,

because each disease has

1 or more condition attached to it. E.G. it can be like a day, each day has

conditions, it could be

windy, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, raining,snowing etc.

 

Its the same with a problem or disease,it also has a condition, [ most

acupuncturists think that the

patient has the conditions] this is not correct, the condition belongs to the

disease, it's the

disease that changes the bodies energy each time you see them, as you know the

disease changes for

all sorts of reasons, as it goes deeper or gets better, the symptoms change.

 

You are correct when you say the organ needs to be identified first, you cannot

diagnose properly by

picking the emotions, when you treat a person you mostly have an effect on the

physical about 90%,

and 10% approx on the mental or emotional, but no acupuncture has an affect on

the spiritual, it

never has and it never will, this a great misunderstanding and mistranslation.

This idea was

introduced over the centuries,after the original sciences were developed and has

no basis in the

original sciences.

 

Only the person can change the spiritual, if they want to. This is a very

important point and will

help you sort the real practitioners from the esoterical types, remember that

Acupuncture is very

real, people are real, disease is real, treat what is real, what you can see and

touch. Don't bring

spiritual ideas into your acupuncture, keep them separate and you will be safe

and on the road to

being a useful practitioner to your patients.They are 2 different areas.

 

If you can't understand an answer that you are given, keep asking the

practitioner or teacher and if

it is no clearer or they say you will understand one day, give them a miss

because they don't know

themselves. With a good understsnding of Acupuncture anyone can give you a clear

easy understood

explanation.

 

I hope I don't offend or upset anyone, but I also was fooled for years on these

points. I hope I

have been able to help you a little. Cheers Murray.

 

 

 

geovani> Yes... do send me the info you have sugested, please. It is

very helpful, to me, to clear and deepen my understanding on the zang-fu

approach. But let me clarify... when I say " spiritual " , I am not following

some " new age pseudo-esoteric wannabe acupuncturists " at all, but I

am refering JR Worsley's 5E acupuncture specificly. I wonder if you

where aware of this......I mean....if you know what is it about.

 

PS: ...you are not offending or upseting me at all ... :~)