Guest guest Posted March 11, 2000 Report Share Posted March 11, 2000 Hello! this is Mark please send your messeges in simple text. not in HTML format, otherwise we read messages full of strange caracters and we dont understand the right sense of the messages. greetings to everibody - <acupuncture > <acupuncture > Saturday, March 11, 2000 11:20 AM acupuncture Digest Number 178 > ------ > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > http://click./1/936/1/_/331483/_/952770051/ > ------ > There are 5 messages in this issue. > > Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Insomnia > becvaj1.ete > 2. Re: 5-E and recipies... > " murray cole " <murrayc > 3. Re: 5-E and recipies... > " geovani " <inandor > 4. RE: 5-E and recipies... > Ed Kasper <edkasper > 5. 5E and 8 conditions > " murray cole " <murrayc > > > __________________________ ___ > __________________________ ___ > > Message: 1 > Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:37:17 +0100 > becvaj1.ete > Insomnia > > > > Dear friends, > I have to face with insomnia. During years I was trying to help to my > daughter (A.D.H.D., sleep disorders, nightmares, several epilepsy > seizures...) with Reiki, Shiatsu, Reflexology etc. There was not many > nights I could sleep without interruption. Now (when the health state of > my daughter is a little bit better) I have troubles to fall asleep. I am > going tired and yawn in the bed but after 30-60 minutes sleep goes away... > I am lying with eyes open have to go urinate frequently... I think the > problem is fall asleep. When I fall asleep my sleep is ussually good > without interruption. > (Other problem is that I have to wake up very early in order to go by bus > for my job.) > Of course during the day I am tired... > > Could you reccomed me some acupoints to focus on? (I was trying Heart 7, > Kidney 3, Spleen 6 with only small succes..) > > Many thans. > > Josef > > > > > __________________________ ___ > __________________________ ___ > > Message: 2 > Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:51:27 +1000 > " murray cole " <murrayc > Re: 5-E and recipies... > > Hello Geovani, In my experience most Acupuncturists rely on symptomatic > receipts and 5 elements to come up with a treatment, and this is not good or > is it the traditional method of treating, It is far better to also have a > good understanding of the 8 conditions. > > Because every disease or problem has one or more conditions attached to it, > how can you treat correctly if you don't know what to do with the needles > after you have inserted them, the 8 conditions will tell you what meridians > to choose in your diagnosis and how to treat the points after you have > chosen them. e.g. needle shao fa, sedation or tonification, moxa, and length > and frequency of treatments, etc. > > Recipes have their place if you are unable to diagnose exactly what > meridians or points to choose, this is how acup has developed over the > centuries with the loss of traditional understanding of the original > sciences that make up a Acup treatment. Originally a Traditional Chinese > Doctor had the ability to put 3 or more of the sciences together and come up > with very effective treatments. Far stronger than our present results using > only one science for a treatment. > > There are only a handful of truly traditional Doctors alive today who have > the ability to put the sciences together and who have a full understanding > of all of the sciences. These people usually don't pass on this knowledge, > that is why it is not taught today even in China, because they don't know. > > Yes, there is a place for receipes today, and some of them are excelent, but > should only hold them in reserve if a traditional treatment is difficult to > diagnose or you dont get the results you expect. > > Cheers Murray. - > geovani +ADw-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AD4- > +ADw-acupuncture+AEA-+AD4- > Friday, March 10, 2000 10:13 AM > +AFs-acupuncture+AF0- 5-E and recipies... > > > +AD4- +ACI-geovani+ACI- +ADw-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- I am left wondering what is the exact place of +ACI-recepies+ACI- > +AD4- when one is focused in finding the real caustive factor. > +AD4- Undaubtdly recepies - as we have discussed before - > +AD4- have some relative value. So , maybe one could say: > +AD4- - Recepies may be useful tools when regarding simptoms > +AD4- that need urgent remedy. Be it because one will loose > +AD4- the patient, be it because indeed the patient is in great > +AD4- distress, be it with the intention of lifting the patient's moral. > +AD4- (and I ask the 5E practicioners whether I am correct or not) > +AD4- > +AD4- So in the case of dermatosis, if it is the small intestine that > +AD4- is distressed (p. ex.), and is unable to separate the good from the > +AD4- bad +ACI-food+ACI- and thus it is poisoning the blood, the lung official > +AD4- may be very successfuly eliminating the poison thru the skin. > +AD4- Now if we are sucessfull in supress this drainage - what will > +AD4- happen? The small int. is still sick, so the poison will now > +AD4- be deviated to god knows where... ...left wondering... > +AD4- > +AD4- -geo- > +AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- ---- -- > +AD4- DON'T HATE YOUR RATE+ACE- > +AD4- Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds+ACE- Get rates as low as > +AD4- 0.0+ACU- Intro or 9.9+ACU- Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > +AD4- Apply NOW+ACE- > +AD4- http://click./1/2120/1/+AF8-/331483/+AF8-/952647185/ > +AD4- ---- -- > +AD4- > +AD4- > > > > __________________________ ___ > __________________________ ___ > > Message: 3 > Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:52:58 -0300 > " geovani " <inandor > Re: 5-E and recipies... > > > > +AD4- +ACI-geovani+ACI- +ADw-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- I am left wondering what is the exact place of +ACI-recepies+ACI- > +AD4- when one is focused in finding the real caustive factor. > +AD4- Undaubtdly recepies - as we have discussed before - > +AD4- have some relative value. So , maybe one could say: > +AD4- - Recepies may be useful tools when regarding simptoms > +AD4- that need urgent remedy. Be it because one will loose > +AD4- the patient, be it because indeed the patient is in great > +AD4- distress, be it with the intention of lifting the patient's moral. > +AD4- (and I ask the 5E practicioners whether I am correct or not) > +AD4- > +AD4- So in the case of dermatosis, if it is the small intestine that > +AD4- is distressed (p. ex.), and is unable to separate the good from the > +AD4- bad +ACI-food+ACI- and thus it is poisoning the blood, the lung official > +AD4- may be very successfuly eliminating the poison thru the skin. > +AD4- Now if we are sucessfull in supress this drainage - what will > +AD4- happen? The small int. is still sick, so the poison will now > +AD4- be deviated to god knows where... ...left wondering... > +AD4- > +AD4- -geo- > > > > > +ACI-murray cole+ACI- +ADw-murrayc+AEA-primus.com.au+AD4- > > Hello Geovani, In my experience most Acupuncturists rely on symptomatic > receipts and 5 elements to come up with a treatment, and this is not good or > is it the traditional method of treating, It is far better to also have a > good understanding of the 8 conditions. > > Because every disease or problem has one or more conditions attached to it, > how can you treat correctly if you don't know what to do with the needles > after you have inserted them, the 8 conditions will tell you what meridians > to choose in your diagnosis and how to treat the points after you have > chosen them. e.g. needle shao fa, sedation or tonification, moxa, and length > and frequency of treatments, etc. > > Recipes have their place if you are unable to diagnose exactly what > meridians or points to choose, this is how acup has developed over the > centuries with the loss of traditional understanding of the original > sciences that make up a Acup treatment. Originally a Traditional Chinese > Doctor had the ability to put 3 or more of the sciences together and come up > with very effective treatments. Far stronger than our present results using > only one science for a treatment. > > There are only a handful of truly traditional Doctors alive today who have > the ability to put the sciences together and who have a full understanding > of all of the sciences. These people usually don't pass on this knowledge, > that is why it is not taught today even in China, because they don't know. > > Yes, there is a place for receipes today, and some of them are excelent, but > should only hold them in reserve if a traditional treatment is difficult to > diagnose or you dont get the results you expect. > > Cheers Murray. > > geovani+AD4- Thanks Murray. I understand what you are saying > up to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far. > There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, and > the more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of the > imbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a second > and third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditions > that you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call 5E) > states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrent > of ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairs > of the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can not > be acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation and > domination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could cause > one particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles. > > So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element if > we look for it in the +ACI-spirit+ACI- - roughfly, a level of the mental and > the emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should be > identified. > > How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to the > above? Unfortunatly I am very +ACI-green+ACI- in the understanding of this > traditional +ACI-energetic level+ACI- approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here) > will go into it soon... > > +AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8 AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8- > +AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0 APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0- > Dialogues on 5-E acupuncture, go to: > www. and find 5E+AF8-acup > -welcome- > +AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0 APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0APQA9AD0- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________ ___ > __________________________ ___ > > Message: 4 > Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:05:05 +0000 > Ed Kasper <edkasper > RE: 5-E and recipies... > > FYI I tried to check out +ADwAPA-Dialogues on 5-E acupuncture, go to: www. and find 5E+AF8-acup +AD4APg- but search returned zero. > I enjoy the discussions on 5 Elements. IT would have been my preference in School except the California State Board has little to do with it. > > Ed Kasper L.Ac. > edkasper+AEA-pacbell.net > > > > > > __________________________ ___ > __________________________ ___ > > Message: 5 > Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:38:21 +1000 > " murray cole " <murrayc > 5E and 8 conditions > > geovani> Thanks Murray. I understand what you are saying > up to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far. > There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, and > the more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of the > imbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a second > and third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditions > that you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call 5E) > states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrent > of ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairs > of the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can not > be acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation and > domination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could cause > one particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles. > > So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element if > we look for it in the " spirit " - roughfly, a level of the mental and > the emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should be > identified. > > How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to the > above? Unfortunatly I am very " green " in the understanding of this > traditional " energetic level " approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here) > will go into it soon... > > Hi Geovani, First you need to choose the correct meridian or meridians, by selecting the symptoms that match the meridian indications, [if you don't have this info let me know and I'll send it to your email address. The 8 conditions are how you treat the selected points, because each disease has 1 or more condition attached to it. E.G. it can be like a day, each day has conditions, it could be windy, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, raining,snowing etc. > > Its the same with a problem or disease,it also has a condition, [ most acupuncturists think that the patient has the conditions] this is not correct, the condition belongs to the disease, it's the disease that changes the bodies energy each time you see them, as you know the disease changes for all sorts of reasons, as it goes deeper or gets better, the symptoms change. > > You are correct when you say the organ needs to be identified first, you cannot diagnose properly by picking the emotions, when you treat a person you mostly have an effect on the physical about 90%, and 10% approx on the mental or emotional, but no acupuncture has an affect on the spiritual, it never has and it never will, this a great misunderstanding and mistranslation. This idea was introduced over the centuries,after the original sciences were developed and has no basis in the original sciences. > > Only the person can change the spiritual, if they want to. This is a very important point and will help you sort the real practitioners from the esoterical types, remember that Acupuncture is very real, people are real, disease is real, treat what is real, what you can see and touch. Don't bring spiritual ideas into your acupuncture, keep them separate and you will be safe and on the road to being a useful practitioner to your patients.They are 2 different areas. > > If you can't understand an answer that you are given, keep asking the practitioner or teacher and if it is no clearer or they say you will understand one day, give them a miss because they don't know themselves. With a good understsnding of Acupuncture anyone can give you a clear easy understood explanation. > > I hope I don't offend or upset anyone, but I also was fooled for years on these points. I hope I have been able to help you a little. Cheers Murray. > > > > > > > __________________________ ___ > __________________________ ___ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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