Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Hi Patrick, I wasn't discussing Shen only the spiritual aspect that people bring into acup and these are two different areas. Murray - Info Nonidrink <info <acupuncture > Monday, March 20, 2000 10:09 PM SV: acupuncture 5E and 8 conditions > " Info Nonidrink " <info > > Murray, > > Thanks for you interpretation of what SHEN is. I think many > people have they own interpretation of SHEN vis á vis Mind > and Soul/Spirit > > You are absolute in your discourse as if you have the key > and the answers. Of course you don't and nor do I. I've learned > to deal and treat SHEN as SHEN and simply leave it at > that. > > Splitting up body/mind/soul would be a " mistake " in treatment. > For example treating SHEN is the same as treating the > body/mind/soul all in one. You need not have a philosophical > debate on what is what and whether or what exist. > > I agree to a certain extent to treat the physical. But ask yourself > this question : Is the mind physical? Sure the brain is physical! > > Another thing is that Ren Mai, Tu Mai, Chong Mai, Dai Mai, > Yang Wei, Yin Wei, Yang Qiao and Yin Qiao are abstract > and dont really have their own meridians , besides Ren and > Tu/Du. > > Because this physical manisfestation lacks should you not > use them and increase the scope of your treatment? > What I mean here is , well I'm going back to SHEN . Treat > SHEN as it is instead of getting into the discourse of whether > or not we can treat SHEN(spirit) > > We can treat SHEN and one can interpret it how one likes! > > hmm after reading this it does seem a touch assertive it isn't > written to offen . Please take it as you wish! > > Sincerely > > Patrick Dooley, President > Global Commerce > --- > TCM, Acupuncturist. > Personal and Leadership Facilitator. > --- > > Sweden Phone: +46 70 354 6541 > : +46 70 483 6873 > > TOLL FREE > Fax: +1 (877) 863-6816 > Voicemail: +1 (877) 863-6816 > > Morinda Founders Member ID# 84919 > ICQ# 710309 > > ------------- > - ###################################### - > - ### " The mind is like a parachute, ### - > - ### functions ONLY when open! " ### - > - ###################################### - > ------------- > > Manuia (mah noo'ya) Tahitian for " Good Fortune " > Learn how you too can benefit from the NoniDrink! > http://www.nonidrink.com > patrick > ------------- > > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: murray cole [murrayc] > Skickat: den 11 mars 2000 10:38 > Till: acupuncture onelist > Ämne: acupuncture 5E and 8 conditions > > > " murray cole " <murrayc > > > geovani> Thanks Murray. I understand what you are saying > up to the point where my understanding of TCM permits me, so far. > There seem to be three levels of understanding envolved here. First, and > the more superficial (in the understanding of the nature of the > imbalance of the patient) the following of recepies. And at a second > and third level I am placing the diagnosis related to the 8 conditions > that you mention and the Caustive Factor approache. The later (what I call > 5E) > states that deseises - cronic conditions, here - are always decorrent > of ONE distressed element (from 5), and in fact one of the two pairs > of the element. But to identify this distressed organ/meredian can not > be acheived in a very simple manner - because of the generation and > domination cicles of the elements, any one of the 12 zang-fu could cause > one particular simptom through the propagation efect of those cicles. > > So the ancient people discovered that one can find this element if > we look for it in the " spirit " - roughfly, a level of the mental and > the emocional body. But in the end... the organ/vicera should be > identified. > > How would you relate the 8 conditions diagnose approache to the > above? Unfortunatly I am very " green " in the understanding of this > traditional " energetic level " approache - although Mr. Wu (my teacher here) > will go into it soon... > > Hi Geovani, First you need to choose the correct meridian or meridians, by > selecting the symptoms that match the meridian indications, [if you don't > have this info let me know and I'll send it to your email address. The 8 > conditions are how you treat the selected points, because each disease has 1 > or more condition attached to it. E.G. it can be like a day, each day has > conditions, it could be windy, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, raining,snowing > etc. > > Its the same with a problem or disease,it also has a condition, [ most > acupuncturists think that the patient has the conditions] this is not > correct, the condition belongs to the disease, it's the disease that > changes the bodies energy each time you see them, as you know the disease > changes for all sorts of reasons, as it goes deeper or gets better, the > symptoms change. > > You are correct when you say the organ needs to be identified first, you > cannot diagnose properly by picking the emotions, when you treat a person > you mostly have an effect on the physical about 90%, and 10% approx on the > mental or emotional, but no acupuncture has an affect on the spiritual, it > never has and it never will, this a great misunderstanding and > mistranslation. This idea was introduced over the centuries,after the > original sciences were developed and has no basis in the original sciences. > > Only the person can change the spiritual, if they want to. This is a very > important point and will help you sort the real practitioners from the > esoterical types, remember that Acupuncture is very real, people are real, > disease is real, treat what is real, what you can see and touch. Don't bring > spiritual ideas into your acupuncture, keep them separate and you will be > safe and on the road to being a useful practitioner to your patients.They > are 2 different areas. > > If you can't understand an answer that you are given, keep asking the > practitioner or teacher and if it is no clearer or they say you will > understand one day, give them a miss because they don't know themselves. > With a good understsnding of Acupuncture anyone can give you a clear easy > understood explanation. > > I hope I don't offend or upset anyone, but I also was fooled for years on > these points. I hope I have been able to help you a little. Cheers Murray. ------ > PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2121/1/_/331483/_/953553983/ > ------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Hello Patrick, Murray and all the other listers, I like to give you my two bits on this topic. I think " spirit " , " soul " or " emotions " play a big part in TCM. Personally it gives me great satisfaction that they are integrated in our health concept and not separated like in the western world. In the TCM paradigm they are important diagnostic features that can be helpful in differentiating patterns. They can also play a part in treatment and assessment. In the long history of Chinese medicine they have been in and out of fashion and were certainly not in favor with Mao and his followers. When Ted Kapchuk read from classics during his seminars he always pointed out the spiritual character of the prescriptions. The more practical approach is very well demonstrated in the work of Leon Hammer. We all have our preferences and favorites but if we choose to ignore this part of the tradition we hamper our possibilities and omit important tools. Sincerely yours Rob Jansen. Talk to your friends online with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2000 Report Share Posted March 22, 2000 Hi Rob, I agree with you. How you work with this spiritual "things"? How do you manage them, and when... you know what I mean. I work with Shu points like Ub 44-47-49-54, etc. and adding my intention on them. Muchas gracias por su atención, Thank you very much for all your attention, Josep Carrion. jcarrionterapeuta -----Mensaje original-----De: Vibeke en Rob [JetteS]Enviado el: martes, 21 de marzo de 2000 12:49Para: acupuncture Asunto: Re: acupuncture Re: Shen Vibeke en Rob <JetteS Hello Patrick, Murray and all the other listers,I like to give you my two bits on this topic.I think "spirit", "soul" or "emotions" play a big partin TCM. Personally it gives me great satisfaction thatthey are integrated in our health concept and notseparated like in the western world. In the TCMparadigm they are important diagnostic features thatcan be helpful in differentiating patterns. They canalso play a part in treatment and assessment. In thelong history of Chinese medicine they have been in andout of fashion and were certainly not in favor withMao and his followers. When Ted Kapchuk read from classics during hisseminars he always pointed out the spiritual characterof the prescriptions.The more practical approach is very well demonstratedin the work of Leon Hammer. We all have our preferences and favorites but if wechoose to ignore this part of the tradition we hamperour possibilities and omit important tools.Sincerely yours Rob Jansen.Talk to your friends online with Messenger.http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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