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+ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT size+AD0-2+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- I am glad to have the oportunity to follow these discussions+ADw-BR+AD4-on 5E/8P. I would like to ask you Lon, can any acupuncture paradigm+ADw-BR+AD4-- more specificaly 8P - reach the proper depth, without the understanding+ADw-BR+AD4-of the spirit of points? By not taking in consideration the +ACY-quot+ADs-spirit of points+ACY-quot+ADs- +ADw-BR+AD4-is not any system lacking profundity? If the 8P practicioner reaches+ADw-BR+AD4-a point with his patient where the +ACY-quot+ADs-main+ACY-quot+ADs- phisical symptoms are gone...+ADw-BR+AD4-will there not be a certain absense of ground to follow the treatment,+ADw-BR+AD4-regarding those emotional/mental/spiritual left-over issues?+ADw-BR+AD4-I like to regard 8P as a good tool for removal of blocks, other then+ADw-BR+AD4-AE, H/W, Possession, etc... (damp, cold... as Janine once put it with +ADw-BR+AD4-other words)+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-And... generaly speaking, can a non-constitucional paradigm, realy +ADw-BR+AD4-cure as deeply as a constitucional one?+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Lon: The notion that points function in a spiritual depth has nothing to due +ADw-BR+AD4-with 5E VS. 8P treatment. I think we need to discuss terminology.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- I am not conveying the idea that spiritual depth belongs to Worsley+ADw-BR+AD4-in any manner. I will repeat: I am NOT advocating for Worsley. The question +ADw-BR+AD4-above is related to the emotional/mental aspects of acup. points unrelated to+ADw-BR+AD4-any particular system. I refer to 8P because that is the context here...+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-1) The term +ACY-quot+ADs-five elements+ACY-quot+ADs- refers to many traditions of thought regarding +ADw-BR+AD4-acupuncture, each relatively more or less developed, which revolve +AEA- the five +ADw-BR+AD4-elements. Go read the volumes written by Matsumoto and Birch on 5E and tell +ADw-BR+AD4-me if there is anything in there that seems sympathetic to the Worsley +ADw-BR+AD4-tradition. I will mention that I've learned a few treatments from Kikko's +ADw-BR+AD4-students that+ACY-nbsp+ADs- are very deep and effective in dealing with spirit. +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- Right, of course that the 5 element dinamic relation of the 5 aspects of+ADw-BR+AD4-manifestation does not +ACY-quot+ADs-belong+ACY-quot+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- to any system. +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-2) People here use the term +ACY-quot+ADs-Five Element+ACY-quot+ADs- as Ivan has above to signify a +ADw-BR+AD4-spiritual orientation toward healing. +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- I am not sure where you are refering to... The law of five +ADw-BR+AD4-elements is a law of nature, doesn't belong to anyone. 5E acup. +ADw-BR+AD4-(Worsley's) apart from the constitucional orientation, seems to +ADw-BR+AD4-have gone deep into the psico-emotional aspects of points.+ADw-BR+AD4-As i read other authors on acup. points, i don't seem to find+ADw-BR+AD4-such depth in their meaning (although there may be...?).+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Lon+ACY-gt+ADs-...This is contrasted with +ACY-quot+ADs-eight +ADw-BR+AD4-principle+ACY-quot+ADs- which people take to be synonymous with Atheistic TCM as +ADw-BR+AD4-formulated by Mao and the Gang of Four and then propagated by certain linear +ADw-BR+AD4-thinkers in the West.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan: Well, I am trying to gouge the potencialities of any acup. paradigm+ADw-BR+AD4-that do NOT take in account the psico-emotional aspects of points - nothing+ADw-BR+AD4-to do with Worsley here. Although I question if there are other paradigms+ADw-BR+AD4-where the +ACY-quot+ADs-spiritual+ACY-quot+ADs- aspects of points are dealt with deeply as in the +ADw-BR+AD4-Worslean system.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-3) The use of the terms 5E (THIS SEEM TO BE WORSLEY'S) +ADw-BR+AD4-and 8P as suggested in +ACM-2 above may have been true 20 years +ADw-BR+AD4-ago in this country (but not necessarily now) but these divisions are +ADw-BR+AD4-not historically true as the Classic texts are filled with discussion of +ADw-BR+AD4-both 5E and yin/yang thinking. +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- Now... this last +ACY-quot+ADs-5E+ACY-quot+ADs- is not the same as the former. How could+ADw-BR+AD4-any Classic discuss Worsley?? (NOTE: this is a reference to an earlier+ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4-

+ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT size+AD0-2+AD4-statement from Lon: +ACY-quot+ADs-Worsleys system is as old as Worsley himself+ACY-quot+ADs-)+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Lon+ACY-gt+ADs-...I think it causes a fair amount of separation +ADw-BR+AD4-in our profession when people speak in a way that suggests that 5E is +ADw-BR+AD4AJg-quot+ADs-spiritual+ACY-quot+ADs- or +ACY-quot+ADs-flaky+ACY-quot+ADs- or that 8p is +ACY-quot+ADs-symptomatic+ACY-quot+ADs- or more +ACY-quot+ADs-realistic.+ACY-quot+ADs- I'm +ADw-BR+AD4-attempting here to show that they complement each other and that the +ADw-BR+AD4-similarities are greater than the differences.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- Well, in a way even the more +ACY-quot+ADs-rudimentar+ACY-quot+ADs- acup. proceedure+ADw-BR+AD4-is based on 5 elements priciples. To simply tonify you use 5E (the point+ADw-BR+AD4-of the mother element).+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-quot+ADs-5E+ACY-quot+ADs- here is Worsley's?+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-4) If one looks at the two systems, it is clear that they are inextricably +ADw-BR+AD4-linked. Five-element is deeper and deals most notably with constitution and +ADw-BR+AD4-is linked to time (the endless cycling of change implicit in dao (great, +ADw-BR+AD4-moving away, far away, return, and center.) +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- Now is my turn to ask: what is this +ACY-quot+ADs-Five-element+ACY-quot+ADs- here? The general+ADw-BR+AD4-5E priciple of elements, other 5E paradigm, or the Worsley system?+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Lon+ACY-gt+ADs-...The eight principles are +ADw-BR+AD4-relatively linear, are linked to physical substrate, represent a relatively +ADw-BR+AD4-outer physical level of being. 8P is linked to space. In this world space and +ADw-BR+AD4-time are woven together and not separate.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-5) The spiritual functioning of the points is implicit within them and +ACo-does +ADw-BR+AD4-not+ACo- lie in the domain of either the five element or the eight principle +ADw-BR+AD4-system. Treating K-23 for its deep function is neither 5E or 8P and it is +ADw-BR+AD4-congruent with both.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- The spiritual functions of points are facts, agreed.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Doesn't make +ADw-BR+AD4-any diference wether the praticioner is aware of them or not? I would say+ADw-BR+AD4-it does, no?+ACY-nbsp+ADs- That is the question basicaly.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan asks: generally speaking, can a non-constitutional paradigm, really +ADw-BR+AD4-cure as deeply as a constitutional one?+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Lon:+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-1) 8P paradigms all have notions of the importance of constitution though +ADw-BR+AD4-this view is relatively quantitative (what is a person's relative endowment +ADw-BR+AD4-of yin and yang?) and limited as opposed to 5E which takes a qualitative view +ADw-BR+AD4-of constitution and is quite elaborate (if accounting for 2 elements within +ADw-BR+AD4-you come up with near infinite types).+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- They may have +ACY-quot+ADs-notions+ACY-quot+ADs-, but the idea of an +ACY-quot+ADs-ongoing+ACY-quot+ADs- constitucional+ADw-BR+AD4-element/function that should be wiewed during treatment doesn't seem to be part+ADw-BR+AD4-of the 8P paradigm.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-2) I do believe that 5E is deeper as it affords a +ADw-BR+AD4-much more elaborate view of innate tendencies than 8P. +ADw-BR+AD4-I believe the 5E view must be embraced to reach a +ADw-BR+AD4-patient at their depth and create a foundation for healing that impacts +ADw-BR+AD4-evolution. I also believe that embracing the 8P, since we live in a world +ADw-BR+AD4-with gravity, is imperative in this regard as well. I think both need to be +ADw-BR+AD4-embraced, however 5, by the virtue of being closer to one (they are both odd +ADw-BR+AD4-numbers as well) than 8 (which is further from one and even (dualistic), is +ADw-BR+AD4-deeper. +ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-3) And finally, I do not believe that a human possessing a refined sense of +ADw-BR+AD4-being is ultimately limited in their ability to promote healing in another by +ADw-BR+AD4-the window they are looking through. The soul connection between patient and +ADw-BR+AD4-practitioner may be equally strong regardless of where the practitioner went +ADw-BR+AD4-to school and spirit will tend to transcend theory in any person with a +ADw-BR+AD4-commitment to healing.+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- Of course... some heal by their mere presence. And i also agree+ADw-BR+AD4-that 5 (Worsley) and 8 can be used, toghether, alternatively or else... +ADw-BR+AD4-but it seems very significant to keep an eye on the CF (or any other +ADw-BR+AD4-name one wishes to call it...)+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4-Thanks. I sugest though,+ACY-nbsp+ADs- that we diferentiate clearly+ADw-BR+AD4AJg-quot+ADs-5E+ACY-quot+ADs- as a natural law, +ACY-quot+ADs-5E+ACY-quot+ADs- as some systems are called, and +ACY-quot+ADs-5E+ACY-quot+ADsAPA-BR+AD4-as the Worsley's approach. You seem to have used it in all this+ADw-BR+AD4-three different meanings/contexts intermixed...+ADw-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4-

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+ADw-DIV+AD4APA-FONT size+AD0-2+AD4-Ivan+ACY-gt+ADs- Any comments?+ADw-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-BR+AD4APA-/FONT+AD4APA-/DIV+AD4APA-/BODY+AD4APA-/HTML+AD4-