Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Michael, Have you ever read Ramsey Clark's book " The Fire This Time " about the gulf war. We, the US killed thousands upon thoudands of civilians knowingly. Many died after that war due to lack of medical supplies and clean water. Is this justified? Shall we go get the N. Korean leader next? and then Indonesia's corrupt leader? How about the dictator in Myanmar. He makes Sadaam look almost saintly. Iraq was a progressive third world country with modern facilities before we went in to the first Gulf War. Even a vast number of rural areas had indoor plumbing and electricty. You won't find this in many other third world countries with brutal dictatorships. We don't care much about those though because they don't have the natural resources we want. I don't like Sadaam either. The fact that he didn't choose exile means he didn't care enough about protecting his people. So I know he lacks compassion. But lets be real. The current administration could care less about the Iraqi people. Oil is the game. I respectfully disagree with you about this war, Michael. Pegasus - frandoch Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:22 AM [CrystalHW] Re: Universal Haven OUR LOVED ONES Hi there, Please read this right through. Love and Light Michael. The Second Gulf War The UK is involved in the invasion of Iraq. There have been very powerful arguments put forward against this war - from the UN, from Europe, from France, Germany, Russia, China to name but a few. It has divided this nation, right down to individual families, and as always in war, it will be the innocent on both sides who pay the price. This post will probably make me very unpopular with some of you, but there has been so much misinformation put out by governments, and by sections of the media, that when I read some of the posts on this and other forums, I feel that some balance might help. First some background about me. I hate war. I think it is obscene. There is no glory in it - except the glory of those who fight it. I was a child during the Second World War. I lost family or friends in that war, in the Korean War and in the Northern Ireland 'war'. As a child I lived in Portsmouth, the premier naval port, which suffered dreadful bombing. I spent many cold, dark, wet nights huddled in a tin shelter covered with earth and grass, as bombs rained down around us. Nearby houses were destroyed. Large parts of the city were reduced to rubble. Many thousands died. I also served in the military. I was lucky. The day before I was due to go and fight in the Suez War, it was called off. But I was involved in some difficult and frightening situations. The reason for telling you this is that I want you to accept that I know war. I've been there. That's why I hate it. That's why I know that it's unnecessary, if only we could accept that we are all one; that what we do to others we do to ourselves. But we're not there, yet. But I have faith that we are getting there. With a heavy heart, I want to explain to you why I believe that we must deal with the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and why I believe that military action is the only way. We have been misled by our leaders. The case put forward in support of this war doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The UN Weapons Inspectors were achieving some cooperation from Iraq, so why not give them more time. Iraq is the size of France - four times the size of this country. There were 100 Inspectors. 6000 litres of anthrax and 8000 litres of nerve gas could be stored in an average house - or split up into small batches and spread around the country. His missiles could be hidden in a small warehouse, or in underground facilities, of which there are many, many we don't know about. There is a lot of evidence that he has been exporting his weapons to friendly Arab states. Saddam has been refusing to obey UN Resolutions for 12 years. (I know he's not the only one; can we leave that argument for another post?) When pushed to the brink, he always allows something to discovered, something he had 'forgotten'. He is a master of brinkmanship. He is not a rational man. He gassed 5000 of his own people in one day in the north. He has drained the marshes in the south, which were essential for the Marsh Arabs to survive. He has butchered tens of thousands of his own people. He has butchered members of his own family who dared to question him. He denies having Scud missiles, and yet was firing them overnight towards our military bases in Kuwait. He is quite capable of carrying out chemical and biological attacks on his own people, and blaming us. He will probably release vast quantities of crude oil into the Gulf as he did in the last Gulf War, if he can, destroying not only marine life, but also the land of nations around the Gulf, causing starvation amongst their peoples. Saddam Hussein has no concern for human life. His sole interest is his survival and power. If he has to die, he will take as many with him as he possibly can. I could go on and on about this man and what he has done to his people and to Iran, and to Kuwait, but I want to keep this as short as possible. The arguments can go back and forth. There is no black and white here, just a range of greys. So let me put, what I believe, is the reason why have to take military action against this evil man. Left to his own devices, whatever measures we take to contain him, there is a wealth of evidence that within two years, he will have nuclear weapons, and the means to deliver them. His first target will probably be Israel. If he fires a nuclear weapon at Israel, Israel will probably fire ten back. We will be in a nuclear war. Some say that a 'limited' nuclear war may be what this planet needs to wake it up to the horror of these weapons. That the last time anything like this happened was in 1945 when two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, causing horrific devastation and death; that the effects of those bombs is still being felt in the children and grandchildren of the survivors. There is some justification for this point of view. But there is no such thing as a limited nuclear war. And those atomic bombs were mere firecrackers compared to the nuclear weapons of today. The only thing limited about a nuclear war is that it will be limited to this planet. When the nuclear power station in Chernobyl, Russia, exploded some years ago, a cloud of radioactive dust blew across Europe and the UK. There is still farmland in this country that cannot be farmed for decades, even centuries, because of contamination. And remember that the air circulates around the planet in about 48 hours. Yes, we've been misled, and yes, war is horrible, but I sincerely believe that it is necessary; that unless we deal with this situation now, we will have to deal with an infinitely worse one in a few years' time. The UN has proved itself unwilling to enforce its mandates. It's no good threatening to take action unless you are prepared to carry it out. I know that this war is a response to Sept 11, and that the case put forward to justify it is questionable, but there is a growing 'alliance of the willing', nations who are prepared to draw the line and say 'so far, no further'. We face difficult times, when terrorism will have terrifying weapons at its disposal. Unless free nations are prepared to stand up and be counted, to protect that freedom, then I believe that we risk wiping humanity from the face of this planet, which would probably be a good thing from the planet's point of view. But I also know that there is a wave of spiritual awakening spreading across our beautiful planet. And I am proud of those children who are prepared to defy us, and walk out of schools and colleges in protest at the stupidity of their elders. They are the future, and I have high hopes of them. But in the meantime, I believe that we, their elders, have got to start putting right some of our mistakes, at whatever cost. I am very sad that innocent people on both sides will die; that families on both sides will grieve. My heartfelt sympathy and love goes out to all the wives and families of those who are, at this moment, risking their lives to protect us, I pray they return safely. I shall have a light in my window. Love and Light (sadly no laughter) Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Pegasus Thank you for your reply. > Have you ever read Ramsey Clark's book " The Fire This Time " about the gulf war. No. I will look for it. > We, the US killed thousands upon thoudands of civilians knowingly. Many died after that war due to lack of medical supplies and clean water. Is this justified? No, it is not justified. >Shall we go get the N. Korean leader next? We may have to. The countries in that region are running very scared of N Korea, especially Japan. N Korea has been 'testing' cruise missiles (Chinese)across the Sea of Japan, towards Japan , and N Korea has nuclear weapons, and the means of delivery. It has been suggested that N Korea is upping the ante so as to get massive aid from the US. I hope that's the reason. > Iraq was a progressive third world country with modern facilities before we went in to the first Gulf War. Even a vast number of rural areas had indoor plumbing and electricty. You won't find this in many other third world countries with brutal dictatorships. We don't care much about those though because they don't have the natural resources we want. True. > The current administration could care less about the Iraqi people. Oil is the game. You may very well be right. I hope you're wrong. If the leaders of the Alliance of the Willing walk away and leave Iraq after this war then they deserve all they get. Unfortunately, as ever, it will be the innocent who will pay for that betrayal. But if, as I hope, they honour their word, then perhaps, just perhaps, we may actually be moving forwards at last. I pray we are. >I respectfully disagree with you about this war, Thank you for your 'respectfully'. You have the absolute right to disagree with me. May I pose a gentle question? In all the opposition to my sadly held view, from various groups and forums and people I talk to, no-one has ever offered a viable alternative. It's fine to say I'm wrong - but it would be constructive to end that criticism with a statement of how it should be. If you have an alternative to deal with the problems we face, please tell me. I would welcome it, and I would post it everywhere. Michael. , " Peg R " <pegsram@n...> wrote: > Michael, > Have you ever read Ramsey Clark's book " The Fire This Time " about the gulf war. We, the US killed thousands upon thoudands of civilians knowingly. Many died after that war due to lack of medical supplies and clean water. Is this justified? Shall we go get the N. Korean leader next? and then Indonesia's corrupt leader? How about the dictator in Myanmar. He makes Sadaam look almost saintly. Iraq was a progressive third world country with modern facilities before we went in to the first Gulf War. Even a vast number of rural areas had indoor plumbing and electricty. You won't find this in many other third world countries with brutal dictatorships. We don't care much about those though because they don't have the natural resources we want. I don't like Sadaam either. The fact that he didn't choose exile means he didn't care enough about protecting his people. So I know he lacks compassion. But lets be real. > The current administration could care less about the Iraqi people. Oil is the game. I respectfully disagree with you about this war, Michael. Pegasus > > - > frandoch@a... > > Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:22 AM > [CrystalHW] Re: Universal Haven OUR LOVED ONES > > > Hi there, > > Please read this right through. > > Love and Light > > Michael. > > The Second Gulf War > > The UK is involved in the invasion of Iraq. There have been very powerful > arguments put forward against this war - from the UN, from Europe, from > France, Germany, Russia, China to name but a few. It has divided this > nation, right down to individual families, and as always in war, it will be > the innocent on both sides who pay the price. > > This post will probably make me very unpopular with some of you, but there > has been so much misinformation put out by governments, and by sections of > the media, that when I read some of the posts on this and other forums, I > feel that some balance might help. > > First some background about me. I hate war. I think it is obscene. There > is no glory in it - except the glory of those who fight it. > > I was a child during the Second World War. I lost family or friends in that > war, in the Korean War and in the Northern Ireland 'war'. As a child I lived > in Portsmouth, the premier naval port, which suffered dreadful bombing. I > spent many cold, dark, wet nights huddled in a tin shelter covered with earth > and grass, as bombs rained down around us. Nearby houses were destroyed. > Large parts of the city were reduced to rubble. Many thousands died. > > I also served in the military. I was lucky. The day before I was due to go > and fight in the Suez War, it was called off. But I was involved in some > difficult and frightening situations. > > The reason for telling you this is that I want you to accept that I know war. > I've been there. That's why I hate it. That's why I know that it's > unnecessary, if only we could accept that we are all one; that what we do to > others we do to ourselves. But we're not there, yet. But I have faith that > we are getting there. > > With a heavy heart, I want to explain to you why I believe that we must deal > with the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and why I believe that military > action is the only way. > > We have been misled by our leaders. The case put forward in support of this > war doesn't stand up to scrutiny. > > The UN Weapons Inspectors were achieving some cooperation from Iraq, so why > not give them more time. Iraq is the size of France - four times the size > of this country. There were 100 Inspectors. 6000 litres of anthrax and 8000 > litres of nerve gas could be stored in an average house - or split up into > small batches and spread around the country. His missiles could be hidden in > a small warehouse, or in underground facilities, of which there are many, > many we don't know about. There is a lot of evidence that he has been > exporting his weapons to friendly Arab states. > > Saddam has been refusing to obey UN Resolutions for 12 years. (I know he's > not the only one; can we leave that argument for another post?) When pushed > to the brink, he always allows something to discovered, something he had > 'forgotten'. He is a master of brinkmanship. He is not a rational man. He > gassed 5000 of his own people in one day in the north. He has drained the > marshes in the south, which were essential for the Marsh Arabs to survive. > He has butchered tens of thousands of his own people. He has butchered > members of his own family who dared to question him. He denies having Scud > missiles, and yet was firing them overnight towards our military bases in > Kuwait. > > He is quite capable of carrying out chemical and biological attacks on his > own people, and blaming us. He will probably release vast quantities of crude > oil into the Gulf as he did in the last Gulf War, if he can, destroying not > only marine life, but also the land of nations around the Gulf, causing > starvation amongst their peoples. Saddam Hussein has no concern for human > life. His sole interest is his survival and power. If he has to die, he > will take as many with him as he possibly can. > > I could go on and on about this man and what he has done to his people and to > Iran, and to Kuwait, but I want to keep this as short as possible. The > arguments can go back and forth. There is no black and white here, just a > range of greys. > > So let me put, what I believe, is the reason why have to take military action > against this evil man. Left to his own devices, whatever measures we take to > contain him, there is a wealth of evidence that within two years, he will > have nuclear weapons, and the means to deliver them. > > His first target will probably be Israel. If he fires a nuclear weapon at > Israel, Israel will probably fire ten back. We will be in a nuclear war. > Some say that a 'limited' nuclear war may be what this planet needs to wake > it up to the horror of these weapons. That the last time anything like this > happened was in 1945 when two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, causing > horrific devastation and death; that the effects of those bombs is still > being felt in the children and grandchildren of the survivors. There is some > justification for this point of view. But there is no such thing as a > limited nuclear war. And those atomic bombs were mere firecrackers compared > to the nuclear weapons of today. The only thing limited about a nuclear war > is that it will be limited to this planet. > > When the nuclear power station in Chernobyl, Russia, exploded some years ago, > a cloud of radioactive dust blew across Europe and the UK. There is still > farmland in this country that cannot be farmed for decades, even centuries, > because of contamination. And remember that the air circulates around the > planet in about 48 hours. > > Yes, we've been misled, and yes, war is horrible, but I sincerely believe > that it is necessary; that unless we deal with this situation now, we will > have to deal with an infinitely worse one in a few years' time. The UN has > proved itself unwilling to enforce its mandates. It's no good threatening to > take action unless you are prepared to carry it out. I know that this war is > a response to Sept 11, and that the case put forward to justify it is > questionable, but there is a growing 'alliance of the willing', nations who > are prepared to draw the line and say 'so far, no further'. We face difficult > times, when terrorism will have terrifying weapons at its disposal. Unless > free nations are prepared to stand up and be counted, to protect that > freedom, then I believe that we risk wiping humanity from the face of this > planet, which would probably be a good thing from the planet's point of view. > > But I also know that there is a wave of spiritual awakening spreading across > our beautiful planet. And I am proud of those children who are prepared to > defy us, and walk out of schools and colleges in protest at the stupidity of > their elders. They are the future, and I have high hopes of them. But in the > meantime, I believe that we, their elders, have got to start putting right > some of our mistakes, at whatever cost. > > I am very sad that innocent people on both sides will die; that families on > both sides will grieve. > > My heartfelt sympathy and love goes out to all the wives and families of > those who are, at this moment, risking their lives to protect us, I pray they > return safely. I shall have a light in my window. > > Love and Light (sadly no laughter) > > Michael. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 In a message dated 3/23/03 2:17:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, frandoch writes: << May I pose a gentle question? In all the opposition to my sadly held view, from various groups and forums and people I talk to, no-one has ever offered a viable alternative. It's fine to say I'm wrong - but it would be constructive to end that criticism with a statement of how it should be. If you have an alternative to deal with the problems we face, please tell me. I would welcome it, and I would post it everywhere. Michael. >> Dear Michael, Once again many words of wisdom flow from your keyboard. Are you related to me and my husband? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Thank you for your reply and your kind words. As to your question, i will email you. Love and Light Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Michael said: May I pose a gentle question? In all the opposition to my sadly held view, from various groups and forums and people I talk to, no-one has ever offered a viable alternative. One suggestion is not to attack unless attacked. There is also the approach taken by Gandhi and Martin Luther King. The US is the wealthiest, most powerful nation. What if we had set the precedent of compassion and forgiveness instead of premptive strike? What if we had agreed to put Osama bin Laden on trial in an international court of law instead of seeking him down to kill him? I wish the American government had looked at more options in both the 911 scenario and this war. I wish the people in government trusted more in the Universe. This morning on the NY times website I saw a photo of a toddler with the side of her face burned from the coalition's bombing. She will be scarred for the rest of her life. How can we justify this?? Thanks for letting me voice my feelings. Pegasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Dear Micheal, You wrote: I was a child during the Second World War. I lost family or friends in that > war, in the Korean War and in the Northern Ireland 'war'. As a child I lived > in Portsmouth, the premier naval port, which suffered dreadful bombing. I > spent many cold, dark, wet nights huddled in a tin shelter covered with earth > and grass, as bombs rained down around us. Nearby houses were destroyed. > Large parts of the city were reduced to rubble. Many thousands died. Now the same thing is happening in Iraq.They are faced all these disasters in their own land.We must be sorry for them too as well as your countries' children. You wrote: > Saddam has been refusing to obey UN Resolutions for 12 years. (I know he's > not the only one; can we leave that argument for another post?) Why do we leave that argument.That is the case.There are many countries including US and Israel at the top of the list.How and why can a person in your level treat differently .Besides, who do you think have the invoices of the weapons(if still there are any;until now,Iraq did not use any nuclear weapon) which are sold to Iraq to use against Iran ,who do you think sold all weapons to El Kaide and Afhgan people to fight against Russia. Who do you think made meetings with the participation of Oil companies,International Banking Leaders and army officers in Washington,DC. six months before now about the distribution of oil revenues.Do you know the partners or bigger shareholders of the companies which are selected to build for war and rebuild after war. Can you tell me that if someone from a far country comes to your house and tells you " from now on i will administer you.I will put the rules for thirty years to bring democracy to your household.These are the articles of the Capitulation you will accept.After now i will do the harvest in your garden and give you what i decide. " He will bring his family flag and will put it in front of your house. " Can you tell me now what US and UK are doing in other's land.Why UK dealt with Suez Channel and before India.What is US doing now in Afhganistan.These are all for national resources.So called powerful countries are trying to get national resources of other countries who are gifted by God for some period. You wrote: He is quite capable of carrying out chemical and biological attacks on his > own people, and blaming us. He will probably release vast quantities of crude > oil into the Gulf as he did in the last Gulf War, if he can, destroying not > only marine life, but also the land of nations around the Gulf, causing > starvation amongst their peoples. If this happens,who do you think is the guilty. Who forces it. You wrote: Saddam Hussein has no concern for human life. Do US and UK have any concern for Irak people's life.Do you know how many were killed in 1991. You wrote: I could go on and on about this man and what he has done to his people Dear Micheal,maybe in near future we will see what US made its people . You wrote: there is a wealth of evidence that within two years, he will have nuclear weapons, and the means to deliver them. Who do you think will sell those weapons.Why those nations are not offended to produce and sell these chemical and biological weapons as well as nuclear ones. You wrote: I know that this war is > a response to Sept 11, Do you really believe in that.Everyone knows that US has only 50 years oil deposit.Iraq is the second biggest oil producer (first is Saudi Arabia).Everybody easily say nowadays that after Iraq's invasion US will direct to Iran.I myself read in one speech of an American congressman who was though against war talking about Saudi government as " puppet government " .Whose puppet.If Saudis know it ,will they like it. Please keep in mind that oil market began to turn to Euro instead of US dollar which effects US trade who have a large dollar emission. You wrote: But I also know that there is a wave of spiritual awakening spreading across > our beautiful planet. I believe in that. And I am proud of those children . I am proud of children too.However as far as there will be adults who prepare school books with putting seeds of hostile ideas against races,nations,religious the world peace will come very slowly. You wrote: My heartfelt sympathy and love goes out to all the wives and families of > those who are, at this moment, risking their lives to protect us, I pray they > return safely. I shall have a light in my window. I have a light in my window too.For all who has to fight just for they are young and has to obey leaders decisions and who are trying to stay alive under bombs defending their lands and families. Finally,i want to say that we reiki people are supposed to reach a point which is love and respect to all creatures.From the beginning of all these war scenerios for some years,i hoped God will prevent it.I know,now ,wars are also a part of the plan which is the highest good of all. May love and peace prevail. Lale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 says it all .....I wholeheartedly agree with you ..and our British govt should know better too ....Fiona x www.redvelvetuk.com www.redvelvetuk@... womens menstrual well-being, Pleasure Puss cloth pads, Mooncup, and other related goodies - Peg R Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:49 PM Re: [CrystalHW] war vs. peace Michael said: May I pose a gentle question? In all the opposition to my sadly held view, from various groups and forums and people I talk to, no-one has ever offered a viable alternative. One suggestion is not to attack unless attacked. There is also the approach taken by Gandhi and Martin Luther King. The US is the wealthiest, most powerful nation. What if we had set the precedent of compassion and forgiveness instead of premptive strike? What if we had agreed to put Osama bin Laden on trial in an international court of law instead of seeking him down to kill him? I wish the American government had looked at more options in both the 911 scenario and this war. I wish the people in government trusted more in the Universe. This morning on the NY times website I saw a photo of a toddler with the side of her face burned from the coalition's bombing. She will be scarred for the rest of her life. How can we justify this?? Thanks for letting me voice my feelings. Pegasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Thanks for link to redvelvet - as a homeopath I will distribute amongst others who may wish to know! Peace, love and harmony Teresa x > www.redvelvetuk.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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