Digest Number 956

[Guest guest]

>

 

Instead of pointing out the supposed vacuities of those on the list, why don't

we keep the discussion as to enlighten us as to the differences between the

terms you are describing. Perhaps how you see them in your own clincal practice,

Ken?

 

> >

> > I had no idea this little reply would spark such discussion.

>

> Well, it's certainly an important point

> for anyone practicing Chinese herbal

> medicine to know what bu3 fa3 is all

> about. And those who understand it

> all to mean " tonify " are seriously

> and needlessly hampered.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

 

> Instead of pointing out the supposed vacuities of those on the

list, why don't we keep the discussion as to enlighten us as to the

differences between the terms you are describing. Perhaps how you see

them in your own clincal practice, Ken?

 

Believe me I am aware of the discomfort

caused by talking with people about

knowledge. And normally, I oblige

requests to shut up and go away on

any given subject. It's not so

easy for me in this case because

while you and no doubt others feel

(even if they don't express) displeasure

with me suggesting that the field suffers

from issues of illiteracy, others have

let me know that they value the discussion.

 

Of course, it goes without saying...because

I say it all the time...it's an important

issue to me, regardless of the fact that

it is neither comfortable nor remunerative

to talk about it.

 

There's one main reason why I don't get

more involved in the specific clinical

discussions. I have always been taught

and in all of my clinical work pretty

much follow the dictum that " you must

look at the patient " . This dimension

is naturally not available in this

forum, and so I don't use the forum

as a medium for pursuing clinical

ideas very much, as you notice from

the content of my posts. It's not

that I'm averse to it or in any

way opposed to it. I just personally can't

get very far, either in reading

about signs and symptoms and herbs

and theories and certainly in

writing about it, given the restraints

of the medium.

 

I believe that you can only go so

far with these issues when it comes

to addressing clinical specifics

outside of the clinic. And rather than

talk about things that I find virtually

impossible to discuss here, I choose

to deal with topics that I find more

well suited to the medium.

 

I'm doing some workshops on the use

of medicinal herbs in external applications

for a wide range of conditions at a couple

of conferences in Europe in May and June,

which is why I can't be at the CHA conference

that's upcoming. And working with patients

and students, these kinds of questions

naturally come up and hopefully get

answered during the ebb and flow of

a day's work.

 

I don't disagree with you that we need

to take it down to the practical level

of what's in front of you and what do

all of these various words mean in terms

of dealing with clinical realities. I just

don't find in myself the facility to

provide enough data to replace the visual

and palpitory information gained in

clinical interactions when writing posts

to this list.

 

Maybe some time our paths will cross

and we can get down to those kinds of

details together. And when you're in

China, you might make a point of talking

with doctors you encounter there and

see how things interrelate in their

perspectives.

 

When are you leaving?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

I also find this to be a limitation. One, not being able to see the

patient, which is where one can get additional insights and put the

entire clinical picture together. Second, if I (or another

practitioner) was able to examine the patient, I might come up with

different conclusions from the four diagnoses.

 

 

On Saturday, April 6, 2002, at 02:51 PM, dragon90405 wrote:

 

> There's one main reason why I don't get

> more involved in the specific clinical

> discussions. I have always been taught

> and in all of my clinical work pretty

> much follow the dictum that " you must

> look at the patient " . This dimension

> is naturally not available in this

> forum, and so I don't use the forum

> as a medium for pursuing clinical

> ideas very much, as you notice from

> the content of my posts. It's not

> that I'm averse to it or in any

> way opposed to it. I just personally can't

> get very far, either in reading

> about signs and symptoms and herbs

> and theories and certainly in

> writing about it, given the restraints

> of the medium.

[Guest guest]

(I tried to answer before but got a glitch so don't know if I got through,

sorry, if this is a repeat)

 

I'm out of here in a few days for a month in Beijing. I'll bring some of this up

with the doctors there and plan to com back with

definetive answers for much of this. ;-) ;-)

 

Ken, what I'm trying to say is that your energies would be better appreciated if

you would share your knowledge rather than your

opinions about the lack of knowledge of those to whom you are talking. Colleen

made a very clear statement about why she continues to

use " tonify " . If you know something more about tonify, it's subtleties, and the

various original words then, tell us.

If you have something to say about Bu, if it is bu we are talking about, then

educate us.

Your audience, this group, has some of the best educated Chinese Doctors in the

English speaking world and that could lead to a very

fruitful discussion. Something that would really help.

I bring up the clinic, not because I want you to discuss your experience with

patients, but because the clinic and for me the herbs

especially are the best illustration of language and theory. For example, off

the top of my head, the differences in language between the

qualities of Gou Qi Zi and Dang Gui. Or Sha Shen and Shu Di.

I couldn't agree more that case studies are incredibly important. A lot of what

I know is from books. If I didn't Bensky in English my

education in herbs would be much more limited. When the Dr. Jiao book comes out

it will be that much better. The Flaws Books have

been incredibly helpful.

OK, so if I knew Chinese my knowledge would be much, much better. I have tried

to pin down Chinese colleagues on these language

issues and they sort of shrug their shoulders. To them its only different

charactors meaning the same thing in English to a great extant.

So even if I did read Chinese I would still need someone in English to explain

the subtleties to me. Ken, if you are one of those persons

who can explain it then come forward and do it.

 

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Doug,

>

>

> > Instead of pointing out the supposed vacuities of those on the

> list, why don't we keep the discussion as to enlighten us as to the

> differences between the terms you are describing. Perhaps how you see

> them in your own clincal practice, Ken?

>

> Believe me I am aware of the discomfort

> caused by talking with people about

> knowledge. And normally, I oblige

> requests to shut up and go away on

> any given subject. It's not so

> easy for me in this case because

> while you and no doubt others feel

> (even if they don't express) displeasure

> with me suggesting that the field suffers

> from issues of illiteracy, others have

> let me know that they value the discussion.

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

>

> I'm out of here in a few days for a month in Beijing. I'll bring

some of this up with the doctors there and plan to com back with

> definetive answers for much of this. ;-) ;-)

 

Bon voyage. I'll look forward to reading your

reports.

>

> Ken, what I'm trying to say is that your energies would be better

appreciated if you would share your knowledge rather than your

> opinions about the lack of knowledge of those to whom you are

talking.

 

Like each of us, I bring my own experience

and values to the group dynamics. The one

thing that I value most about interchange

with others is when they find my faults.

 

I understand what you're saying and I recognize

that the prevailing cultural attitude supports

an approach that suggests that " I'm OK. You're

OK, " and that everyone is entitled to their own

view of things. But in my experience, I have

benefited most consistently from exchanges

with people who have had the willingness and

insight to be able to tell me that I'm wrong.

 

You're telling me that I'm making a mistake

by pointing out people's mistakes; and it

may well be perceived as a mistake by many.

But I'm not really in it for an approval

rating. And when people say that words mean

something that they don't, what compels me

to act is a deeper set of concerns about the

integrity of the processes of communication.

 

Colleen made a very clear statement about why she continues to

> use " tonify " . If you know something more about tonify, it's

subtleties, and the various original words then, tell us.

 

To show you how incredibly slow and dull witted

I am, it took us years to put together a

book about just one word, qi4. Discussions

of Chinese words take time. My aim in

presenting the work that's in our books

as well as what I present to this list

is to encourage people to make the investment

of time. I've got a list of words that

I'm constantly working on, and I'm generally

quite happy to share my work in progress

with who ever expresses an interest.

 

 

> If you have something to say about Bu, if it is bu we are talking

about, then educate us.

 

I thought that's what I did by pointing

out the discrepancies associated with

the word " tonify " .

 

> Your audience, this group, has some of the best educated Chinese

Doctors in the English speaking world and that could lead to a very

> fruitful discussion. Something that would really help.

 

Happy to take part in such discussions,

but I don't have a syllabus...yet.

That's the point I've been making. It's

not a matter than can be adequately address

in an ongoing series of fairly casual

chats about it. And this doesn't mean

that I don't think the causal chats are

important. Obviously I do or I wouldn't

take part.

 

But they're not a substitute for an

education in the subject.

 

> I bring up the clinic, not because I want you to discuss your ...

Ken, if you are one of those persons

> who can explain it then come forward and do it.

 

I'll continue to do what I can.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Dear Liz,

 

I'm sending you Reiki White Light Healing Energy,

Please take it in and expel the darkness

You know the darkness therefore you can know the power

of the light. don't be afraid, you can sense the

lightworkers around you

 

love, light and peace,

Barbara, in tokyo

 

> Message: 8

> Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:23:42 -0700 (PDT)

> Elizabeth Walker <lizard_mama9

> Prayers

>

> Dear all,

>

> I am in a dark place right now and i hope you all

could say a lil

prayer

for me or send me a lil light to let me find my way

back. I go

throught

this now and again with my depression, but today is a

bad one. Thank

you

all.

> Love and light

> liz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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