RE: luo points...

[Guest guest]

Hello

 

If the luo connecting points are what I think i.e. the Junction points a Five Element person uses them as one of the sets of command points to end a treatment on the particular Element that you are treating that person on. That is to ground them and command their weakest element to heal for them.

 

Gye

 

-

dautobrody

acupuncture

Monday, 12 February 2001 9:00

acupuncture luo points...

Here's a question for you all..when and why do you use the luo connecting points for treatment, as opposed to just using points on that meridian? (ie- using the luo connecting point on the lung meridian to affect large intestine?).And, do you often use the antique points as opposed to points elsewhere on the meridian? Or is this also a case of "it depends", which I often hear from teachers :)Lauren

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

the Luo points are conection points conecting Zang with Fu, in general if

you observes a disfunction between then in the Yin Yang relations, if one is

in excess, the other is weak you use it when you have a disorder in the same

element. When a element is in excess you use the Luo point to punctuate, and

the excess go to the acoplate in its " yuan " point, you first punctuate the

luo poit of the organ in excess and then the yuan point of the weak organ.

Is easy to know when it ocurs, in example, if a couple is in disorder in its

relationing the Yin and the Yang reflect it.

 

RT de Aguiar - São Paulo, Brasil)

 

--------------------

Be the change that you want to see in the world. -- M. K. Gandhi

 

-

<dautobrody

<acupuncture >

Sunday, February 11, 2001 7:00 PM

acupuncture luo points...

 

 

> Here's a question for you all..

> when and why do you use the luo connecting points for treatment, as

opposed

> to just using points on that meridian? (ie- using the luo connecting point

on

> the lung meridian to affect large intestine?).

> And, do you often use the antique points as opposed to points elsewhere on

> the meridian? Or is this also a case of " it depends " , which I often hear

from

> teachers

>

> Lauren

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

geo> Another function that the luo points may have is to

correct the " akabani unbalance " . When a meredian has

more Qi in one side of the body then the other (measured

through the akabani test), one may puncture the luo point

of the side that has less Qi in order to bring back a balanced

distribuition.

 

geo - Florianópolis, Brasil

[Guest guest]

What is the akabani test? (I'm a first year student, apologies if this is common

knowledge.)

 

Carol

 

On Wed, 14 February 2001, " -geo- " wrote:

 

>

> geo> Another function that the luo points may have is to

> correct the " akabani unbalance " . When a meredian has

> more Qi in one side of the body then the other (measured

> through the akabani test), one may puncture the luo point

> of the side that has less Qi in order to bring back a balanced

> distribuition.

>

> geo - Florianópolis, Brasil

>

>

 

 

********************************

www.chickclick.com

 

Sign up for free email.

http://chickmail.chickclick.com

 

Win free stuff!

http://contests.chickclick.com

********************************

[Guest guest]

Lauren wrote:

> Here's a question for you all..

> when and why do you use the luo connecting points for treatment, as

opposed

> to just using points on that meridian? (ie- using the luo

connecting

point

on

> the lung meridian to affect large intestine?).

 

Hi Lauren!

 

The earliest record we have of the luo points is in the <Huangdi

Neijing>. The style of acupuncture presented in that volume has

several unique traits. The most noteworthy of these is its emphasis

on channels (jing) rather than individual points. For most

illnesses, the <Neijing> simply prescribes a particular channel

rather than individual points. This has led many to speculate that

the roots of acupuncture therapy were more oriented towards channels

(jing), networks (luo), sinews (jin) and other large tracts along

which qi and blood flowed through the body, and less toward isolated

points.

 

So before you use a luo point, it would probably be a good idea to

look at the structure of the thing that originates from it and see

where it leads... so to speak :-)

 

According to the <Neijing>, the network vessels (luo mai) have

several characteristics. Firstly, they are said to " govern the

exterior " (zhu wai), which suggests that their location and sphere of

influence is more superficial than the deeper channels. They are

also said to supplement and " fill out " the circulation of the

channels, presumably bringing blood and qi into the superficial

layers of the body (the smallest branches of the luo, the sun luo and

fu luo, roughly parallel modern capillaries, at least conceptually).

Each of the luo mai also has a corresponding " luo point. " There are

15 luo mai altogether, corresponding to the the 12 regular channels,

along with the Ren and Du vessels and an " odd man out " called the

" Great Luo of the Spleen " which in distributed throughout the

thoracic area. The luo mai of the twelve regular channels are all

located on the four limbs and serve as conduits (connecting vessels)

between the corresponding interior/exterior channels (i.e. lung and

large intestine, spleen and stomach, etc). They are said to

strengthen the physiological connection between these organs. Each

of the luo mai has its own set of illnesses listed in the <Lingshu>

part of the <Neijing>.

 

Every luo mai has a specific path, all of which are described rather

explicitly in the <Jing Mai> chapter of the <Ling Shu>. For example,

here's a rough translation of the section on the Hand Taiyin Lung luo

mai:

 

" the divergence [luo] of the Hand Taiyin is called Lieque [the name

of LU07, an ancient term which referred to lightning and the rift in

the sky it came out of -- hence the luo point at which the " bolt " of

lung channel qi diverges]. It originates above the wrist between the

muscles [that is, the abductor pollicis longus and brachioradialis].

It travels parallel to the [shaoyin] channel, directly enters into

the palm and disperses throughout the yuji [thenar eminence]. "

 

Hence (and to finally start to answer your question :-) the lung luo

mai is an actual anatomical tract, the parts of which can be treated

according to the fundamental TCM dictum " wheresoever the channel

travels, there it can effect a cure " ( " jing mai suo guo, zhu zhi suo

ji " ). Stimulating Lieque LU07 (with a needle, heat, friction,

focused intention, what have you) could therefore treat stagnation

and pain anywhere along the length of its luo mai, for example, in

the thenar eminence.

 

The <Ling Shu> goes on to list some specific illnesses associated

with each luo mai. Once again, for the Hand Taiyin Lung luo mai, it

writes (forgive my clunky translation):

 

" Its illnesses: Excess, thus the shou jian [ " acute angle of the

hand " , back of the thenar eminence] has heat. Deficiency, thus the

mouth is open [that is, one is gasping for breath from deficiency of

lung qi]. "

 

So, for example, a patient with hand or wrist pain manifesting as

heat localized around the thenar eminence (i.e. De Quervain's

tenosynovitis) would be a candidate for treatment of the lung luo

mai.

 

Finally the <Ling Shu> notes that the lung luo mai " diverges and

travels to the Yang Ming [large intestine channel]. " Here it would be

appropriate to use zang fu diagnosis in deciding when and how to use

luo points.

 

In the case of the lung and large intestine, the " purging downward

movement " of lung qi has a beneficial effect on the downward

transporation of waste by the large intestine. By the same token,

the unobstructed movement of the bowels assists the lung qi's

downward movement. If there is excess heat in the large intestine so

that the bowel qi is obstructed, this can affect the lung qi and

produce stuffiness in the chest, cough and breathing difficulty.

Conversely, if the lung qi fails to descend, the fluids will not be

sufficiently distributed (remember that the lung " regulates the

waterways " ) and the stool will become hard -- a form of " qi

deficiency constipation. " Furthermore, since the lungs " govern the

qi, " lung deficiency could cause the qi to fail to perform its

securing function, thus giving rise to loose stools.

 

In a nutshell, if a patient shows signs that a lung disorder is

disrupting the function of the large intestine or vice-versa (i.e.

someone with a persistent upper respiratory tract infection develops

constipation or diarrhea), then treating the lung luo point (Lieque

LU07) would be appropriate.

 

In summary, the luo point can be used in the context of the older

channel-based diagnostics (viz. anatomical distibution of signs,

symptoms, hypersensitivies, etc along the path of the affected luo

mai) or according to the zang fu diagnosis which locates illness at

the intersection of interior/exterior organs systems.

 

I'm sure students of Five Elements and other acupuncture schools

could offer additional comments.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Cheers!

 

Matthew

--

" There is no need to struggle to be free;

the absence of struggle is in itself freedom. "

--Chogyam Trungpa

 

 

 

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

+AD4- geo+AD4- Another function that the luo points may have is to

+AD4- correct the +ACI-akabani unbalance+ACI-. When a meredian has

+AD4- more Qi in one side of the body then the other (measured

+AD4- through the akabani test), one may puncture the luo point

+AD4- of the side that has less Qi in order to bring back a balanced

+AD4- distribuition.

 

 

Carol+AD4- What is the akabani test? (I'm a first year student, apologies if

this is common knowledge.)

 

Ivan (-geo-)+AD4- No problem. Maybe it is not common knowledge for

all pt, but it is well known for the 5E pt. The test consists in heating

the nail points of the meredians (ting) through a rapid motion of a Japanese

incense stick a couple of milimeters above the actual points. You count

the number of movements and compare these countings for both sides.

The highest conting is the side whre Qi is deficient.

 

Ivan - Florianopolis, Brasil.

[Guest guest]

Matthew~

Thanks for that in depth answer! I'm a first year student, and haven't gotten

to study the Classics (nei, nan jing) yet...But I see you've retained the

information well:)

Thanks again for shedding some light on the subject. Eventually I'll know

these things, but right now we're studying point location, and some basic

functions of the points (as well as organ/meridian pathologies). But in

time, I'll learn more.

Take Care

 

Lauren

 

And thank you Ivan, for your information as well!!

 

Hope to hear more from you soon.

[Guest guest]

Lauren wrote:

> Here's a question for you all..

> when and why do you use the luo connecting points for treatment, as

opposed

> to just using points on that meridian? (ie- using the luo

connecting

point

on

> the lung meridian to affect large intestine?).

 

Hi Lauren!

 

The earliest record we have of the luo points is in the <Huangdi

Neijing>. The style of acupuncture presented in that volume has

several unique traits. The most noteworthy of these is its emphasis

on channels (jing) rather than individual points. For most

illnesses, the <Neijing> simply prescribes a particular channel

rather than individual points. This has led many to speculate that

the roots of acupuncture therapy were more oriented towards channels

(jing), networks (luo), sinews (jin) and other large tracts along

which qi and blood flow through the body, and less toward isolated

points.

 

So before you use a luo point, it would probably be a good idea to

look at the structure of the thing that originates from it and see

where it leads... so to speak :-)

 

According to the <Neijing>, the network vessels (luo mai) have

several characteristics. Firstly, they are said to " govern the

exterior " (zhu wai), which suggests that their location and sphere of

influence is more superficial than the deeper channels. They are

also said to supplement and " fill out " the circulation of the

channels, presumably bringing blood and qi into the superficial

layers of the body (the smallest branches of the luo, the sun luo and

fu luo, roughly parallel modern capillaries, at least conceptually).

Each of the luo mai also has a corresponding " luo point. " There are

15 luo mai altogether, corresponding to the 12 regular channels,

along with the Ren and Du vessels and an " odd man out " called the

" Great Luo of the Spleen " which in distributed throughout the

thoracic area. The luo mai of the twelve regular channels are all

located on the four limbs and serve as conduits (connecting vessels)

between the corresponding interior/exterior channels (i.e. lung and

large intestine, spleen and stomach, etc). They are said to

strengthen the physiological connection between these organs. Each

of the luo mai has its own set of illnesses listed in the <Lingshu>

part of the <Neijing>.

 

Every luo mai has a specific path, each of which is described rather

explicitly in the <Jing Mai> chapter of the <Ling Shu>. For example,

here's a rough translation of the section on the Hand Taiyin Lung luo

mai:

 

" the divergence [luo] of the Hand Taiyin is called Lieque [the name

of LU07, an ancient term which referred to lightning and the rift in

the sky it came out of -- hence the luo point at which the " bolt " of

lung channel qi diverges]. It originates above the wrist between the

muscles [that is, the abductor pollicis longus and brachioradialis].

It travels parallel to the [shaoyin] channel, directly enters into

the palm and disperses throughout the yuji [thenar eminence]. "

 

Hence (and to finally start to answer your question :-) the lung luo

mai is an actual anatomical tract, which can be treated according to

the fundamental TCM dictum " wheresoever the channel travels, there it

can effect a cure " ( " jing mai suo guo, zhu zhi suo ji " ). Stimulating

Lieque LU07 (with a needle, heat, friction, focused intention, what

have you) could therefore treat stagnation and pain anywhere along

the length of its luo mai, for example, in the thenar eminence.

 

The <Ling Shu> goes on to list some specific illnesses associated

with each luo mai. Each group of luo illnesses is divided into two

classes, " excess " and " deficiency. " Again, for the Hand Taiyin Lung

luo mai, it writes (forgive my clunky translation):

 

" Its illnesses: Excess, thus the shou jian [ " acute angle of the

hand " , back of the thenar eminence] and palm has heat. Deficiency,

thus the mouth is open [that is, one is gasping for breath from

deficiency of lung qi], the emission of urine is conspicuous [i.e.

frequent micturition or enuresis] "

 

So, for example, a patient with hand or wrist pain manifesting as

heat localized around the thenar eminence (i.e. De Quervain's

tenosynovitis) would be a candidate for treatment of the lung luo

mai. The lung luo mai has also classically been used to treat

bedwetting in children and incontinence in the eldery, women

following childbirth, etc.

 

To understand the connection here, one must know that, according to

the physiological theories of TCM, lungs are the " upper source of

water " and the lung qi " regulates the waterways, " which means that

the diffusing and descending activitu of lung qi helps distribute

fluid throughout the body, as well as assists in the elimination of

urine.

 

Finally the <Ling Shu> notes that the lung luo mai " diverges and

travels to the Yang Ming [large intestine channel]. " Here it would be

appropriate to use zang fu diagnosis in deciding when and how to use

luo points.

 

In the case of the lung and large intestine, the " purging downward

movement " of lung qi has a beneficial effect on the downward

transporation of waste by the large intestine. By the same token,

the unobstructed movement of the bowels assists the lung qi's

downward movement. If there is excess heat in the large intestine so

that the bowel qi is obstructed, this can affect the lung qi and

produce stuffiness in the chest, cough and breathing difficulty.

Conversely, if the lung qi fails to descend, the fluids will not be

sufficiently distributed (remember that the lung " regulates the

waterways " ) and the stool will become hard -- a form of " qi

deficiency constipation. " Furthermore, since the lungs " govern the

qi, " lung deficiency could cause the qi to fail to perform its

securing function, thus giving rise to loose stools.

 

In a nutshell, if a patient shows signs that a lung disorder is

disrupting the function of the large intestine or vice-versa (i.e.

someone with a persistent upper respiratory tract infection develops

constipation or diarrhea), then treating the lung luo point (Lieque

LU07) would be appropriate. In cases such as these, it is

traditional to combine the luo point with the corresponding source

(yuan) point (in this case Taiyuan LU09).

 

In summary, the luo point can be used in the context of the older

channel-based diagnostics (viz. anatomical distribution of signs,

symptoms, hypersensitivies, etc along the path of the affected luo

mai) or according to a zang fu diagnosis which locates illness at the

intersection of interior/exterior organs systems.

 

I'm sure students of Five Elements and other acupuncture schools

could offer additional comments.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Cheers!

 

Matthew

--

" There is no need to struggle to be free;

the absence of struggle is in itself freedom. "

--Chogyam Trungpa

 

 

 

 

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

Hello to everybody...

 

I tried today the Akabane test, and I was wandering: how many time for each

point, because 8 of the 10 points of the hans were heat up to 2 minuts, and

nothing, my patient didn't feel it. What about the distance of the tip of the

stick from the skin surface over the Jing-well point, and should I wait until he

feels heat (heat sensation, warm, burning sensation?) even if it is up to 5

minuts or whatever?

 

Thanks to all.

 

Josep.

 

 

 

 

 

Ivan +AFs-inandor+AEA-uol.com.br+AF0-

Thursday, February 15, 2001 6:04 PM

acupuncture+AEA-

Re: +AFs-acupuncture+AF0- luo points...

 

 

 

 

 

+AD4- geo+AD4- Another function that the luo points may have is to

+AD4- correct the +ACI-akabani unbalance+ACI-. When a meredian has

+AD4- more Qi in one side of the body then the other (measured

+AD4- through the akabani test), one may puncture the luo point

+AD4- of the side that has less Qi in order to bring back a balanced

+AD4- distribuition.

 

 

Carol+AD4- What is the akabani test? (I'm a first year student, apologies if

this is common knowledge.)

 

Ivan (-geo-)+AD4- No problem. Maybe it is not common knowledge for

all pt, but it is well known for the 5E pt. The test consists in heating

the nail points of the meredians (ting) through a rapid motion of a Japanese

incense stick a couple of milimeters above the actual points. You count

the number of movements and compare these countings for both sides.

The highest conting is the side whre Qi is deficient.

 

Ivan - Florianopolis, Brasil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------ +ACE- Groups Sponsor

---------------------+AH4--+AH4APg-

eGroups is now +ACE- Groups

Click here for more details

http://click./1/11231/0/+AF8-/331483/+AF8-/982252913/

---+AF8--+AD4-