Guest guest Posted August 10, 2002 Report Share Posted August 10, 2002 Marco, > As to the " secret " in Chinese medicine, Ken > when you mention in an earlier letter about the > intentional " flowery " language inTaoist writing > and how one needs to be a " detective " a term > that I have used to explain the diagnostic > procedure of Chinese medicine, probably this > has and can contribute profoundly on the > " secrecy " aspect to Chinese medicine. I don't know if I used the word " flowery " to describe Daoist texts. Perhaps I should have said " metaphorical " . Flowery is probably less accurate. There are a couple of linguistic and literary mechanisms that come into play and not only with the reading and comprehension of Daoist texts but of Chinese literature in general and of Chinese medical texts particularly. One is metaphor; the other is allusion. In Chinese language and literature one thing or word or concept often is used to compare either similar or dissimilar qualities or characteristics to another. Subsequent to such metaphoric comparisons, the two words/terms/ ideas sometimes come to be " confused " with each other and then to be symbols of one another. In language this is sometimes known as " false borrowing " . The Chinese term is tong1 jia3 zi4. This leads to a difficulty in reading such texts in that words don't always mean what they seem to. Allusion makes such reading even more complex and is a natural development in terms of literary form and function of phenomena such as false borrowing that applies more broadly to the Chinese language generally. It seems that Chinese language users and particularly those who have used it to create its great literature, like to pack as much meaning as possible into as few brushstrokes as possible. When they could plug in vast arrays of information and insights without even mentioning the source to which they were alluding they had accomplished something of great significance, according to Chinese aesthetic standards. Lin Yu Tang explains this brilliantly in his biography of the Song poet, Su Tung Po. Factors such as false borrowing, allusion, metaphor and the urge towards terse expressions that are meant to elaborate themselves in the minds of readers rather than unfold on the page...these things all combine to lend much of the classical literature a quite mysterious or secret flavor. It's not just a trait of the Daoists but of literary people in general. > > Still, would be interesting to compare and > contrast other dogmatically writing on Chinese > medicine such as Confucian and Buddhist and so > forth... > > Or if you or any one would not mind to > summarise some key difference between > particular writings influence by each > respectively... In a couple of chapters of Who Can Ride the Dragon we have taken a stab at doing just this. And the above summary might be better understood in the context of the remarks made in that book. > > What I can gather thus far is that the > " secrecy " of Chinese medicine is both related > to political strategy, probably both > intentional and coheres, as well as the > entity(s) of Chinese medicine I.e. its > particularise and the mere fact it (originates) > comes: > > FAR FAR AWAY A LONG TIME AGO WHEN THE JEDI > ORDER WHERE THE GUARDIAN OF THE " FORCE " > > eh, I am getting confused with things that > possibly have influence the idea of mysticisms > and secrecy... I think that these traits of the language and literature continue to exert a strong influence over the way that the knowledge base of Chinese medicine is perceived and understood. > > By the way, we have come accross a book by Wu > Wei Ping now to put the content into context I > am wondering if any one can mention something > that may bring light on the book and how we in > a way may use it. Which book? And what topics do you seek to cover with it? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2002 Report Share Posted August 11, 2002 Marco, I've been thinking about it and it seems to me that there is another characteristic of Chinese language and literature which has lent to the medical literature and therefore to Chinese medicine in general, a somewhat secret air. I mentioned metaphor and allusion. I think we should add suggestion to the list. By suggestion I refer to that quality of the language and literature to function through suggestion as opposed to direct statement of intended meanings. You know Salvador Dali's critique of the painting The Lacemaker by Vermeer? Curiously, Dali develops a clear explanation of this power of suggestion that is more or less directly applicable to the aspect of Chinese language and literature I'm mentioning here. It is often far more effective...and efficient to suggest subtle and complex ideas than to try and state them bluntly. Dali suggests that Vermeer was a master of this technique and illustrates his thesis in this critique of The Lacemaker. If I remember correctly, it's in Dali's autobiography: Diary of a Genius. If you've never read it, you might get a kick out of it. And as I suggest, this idea pertains to Chinese literature as well as Dutch painting. It's a wonderful example of an idea that rather completely translates from one cultural set to another. And I think you might find it of use in discussing the importance of looking straight at the Chinese medical literature with your students and colleagues. I'm working on an essay regarding metaphor, allusion and suggestion in Chinese language and literature that is specifically cast in a context that relates these issues to Chinese medical knowledge. You might be interested if I can actually finish it. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 Dear Ken, Ken this letter of yours is incredibly interesting if I may say so, and will get both who can ride the dragon and a brief history of Qi no later then dec 24. (here I am alluding to Christmas and since Sweden is one of those countries that actually celebrates the 24th more then the 25th, which I think is amore common practice in the western world, another allusion could be Christmas in Sweden. Although strictly speaking I am not going to be there this dec.) However is this part of the allusion aspect that you mention is prevalent in Chinese medicine, albeit less elegantly done. Still allusionary aspect would it not be very much situational-historical dependent? What I mean is that probably a lot of writers wrote things down taking there allusion and methoprical aspects for granted as some things would have been "common" or shared knowledge between various strata represented by those that held the pen. if this is the case I imagine that learning Chinese language actually means learning understanding comprehending (trying to) Chinese particularities in a given place and time?( and then aim to re-apply it to "here and know"?) As for metaphors and allusion: Come mother Christmas--------------------(unfortunately to obvious as to what event is being referred to) A cold Swedish day---------------------------(i.e. dec 24th) Qi and Dragon will be seen----------------(i.e. A brief history of Qi and Who can ride the Dragon, see=read) By the Quetzal(i.e. The national emblem of Guatemala a bird that now is nearly extinct...) okay so I am not a poet but a good laugh can be therapeutically... Actually your letter explains aspects and highlights aspects more complex then I can relay such as "false borrowing" (as an example). However why is this "a tendency more pronace in Chinese writing"? Until the end of this year a "request" could you not by any chance break down a sample (short) text paragraph about Chinese medical writing and do us the grand favour of identifying the "false borrowing", metaphorical and allusion aspect. I know it is a lot to ask but it is always worth to ask (right?), besides I was thinking of my class (no rhyme intended) Seriously thanks a lot for your responses... As for the Wu Bo Ping book Will need to borrow it and actually read it however I was thinking what can I/we "expect" from it, but will check it out and comment further... Marco - yulong Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:50 PM Re: Digest Number 1084 Marco,> As to the "secret" in Chinese medicine, Ken> when you mention in an earlier letter about the> intentional "flowery" language inTaoist writing> and how one needs to be a "detective" a term> that I have used to explain the diagnostic> procedure of Chinese medicine, probably this> has and can contribute profoundly on the> "secrecy" aspect to Chinese medicine.I don't know if I used the word "flowery"to describe Daoist texts. Perhaps I shouldhave said "metaphorical". Flowery is probablyless accurate. There are a couple of linguisticand literary mechanisms that come into playand not only with the reading and comprehensionof Daoist texts but of Chinese literature ingeneral and of Chinese medical texts particularly.One is metaphor; the other is allusion.In Chinese language and literature one thingor word or concept often is used to compareeither similar or dissimilar qualities orcharacteristics to another. Subsequent tosuch metaphoric comparisons, the two words/terms/ideas sometimes come to be "confused" witheach other and then to be symbols of oneanother. In language this is sometimes known as "false borrowing". The Chineseterm istong1 jia3 zi4. This leads to a difficultyin reading such texts in that words don'talways mean what they seem to. Allusion makes such reading even more complexand is a natural development in terms ofliterary form and function of phenomenasuch as false borrowing that applies morebroadly to the Chinese language generally.It seems that Chinese language users andparticularly those who have used it to createits great literature, like to pack as muchmeaning as possible into as few brushstrokesas possible. When they could plug in vast arraysof information and insights without evenmentioning the source to which they were alludingthey had accomplished something of greatsignificance, according to Chinese aestheticstandards. Lin Yu Tang explains this brilliantlyin his biography of the Song poet, Su Tung Po.Factors such as false borrowing, allusion,metaphor and the urge towards terse expressionsthat are meant to elaborate themselves inthe minds of readers rather than unfold onthe page...these things all combine to lendmuch of the classical literature a quitemysterious or secret flavor.It's not just a trait of the Daoists but ofliterary people in general.> > Still, would be interesting to compare and> contrast other dogmatically writing on Chinese> medicine such as Confucian and Buddhist and so> forth...> > Or if you or any one would not mind to> summarise some key difference between> particular writings influence by each> respectively...In a couple of chapters of Who Can Ridethe Dragon we have taken a stab at doingjust this. And the above summary mightbe better understood in the context ofthe remarks made in that book.> > What I can gather thus far is that the> "secrecy" of Chinese medicine is both related> to political strategy, probably both> intentional and coheres, as well as the> entity(s) of Chinese medicine I.e. its> particularise and the mere fact it (originates)> comes:> > FAR FAR AWAY A LONG TIME AGO WHEN THE JEDI> ORDER WHERE THE GUARDIAN OF THE "FORCE"> > eh, I am getting confused with things that> possibly have influence the idea of mysticisms> and secrecy...I think that these traits of the languageand literature continue to exert a stronginfluence over the way that the knowledgebase of Chinese medicine is perceived andunderstood. > > By the way, we have come accross a book by Wu> Wei Ping now to put the content into context I> am wondering if any one can mention something> that may bring light on the book and how we in> a way may use it. Which book? And what topics do you seekto cover with it?Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 In a message dated 11/16/03 7:58:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Re: OT: stay safe continuation > > I'd like to add my two cents here. My husband drives a truck and I always > send him off with " be safe " . I'd much rather he come home safely, than " have > a nice day " . I also end my conversations on the phone with " Love you " , as > you never know when that conversation (God forbid) might be the last one. With > all the harm in the world, 'Be safe " wishes are very caring thoughts. > > Betty Ott > Soaps by Betty > It is not only the socalled 'harm in the world' that takes our loved ones from us. MJH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 In a message dated 11/16/03 7:58:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > " Rahnny " <Rahn68 > star anise, or anise seed? > > Which one do I buy to get a great black licorice scent? > > Rahnny > > How about the real McCoy? Licorice root, itself. Why settle for wannabe's? MJH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 > Message: 3 > Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:27:21 -0800 > " Patricia Hoffert " <PatriciaHoffert > RE: Question regarding Indigo Crystals > > > Aileen, > > Depending on what you really like, iolite is very similar to a sapphire. > Love, light, Reiki, and PRISMology...Pat... > >##### Yes Pat, I think Iolite is very similar to my eye and would do nicely for what I have in mind...now just to find some!! :-) Thank you! Blessings,Aileen Telepathic Artistry http://www.aileendonovan.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Aileen, How far up into Canada are you? At the Hamburg Fair Grounds this week-end, we are having a gem, fossil, mineral and crystal show. It is Friday from 11 am until 7 pm, and Saturday and Sunday 10 - 5. I hope you find your Iolite. Love, light, Reiki and PRISMology...Pat... > " aileen donovan " <aileendonovan > > >Re: [CrystalHW] Digest Number 1084 >Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:43:16 -0500 > > > > > > Message: 3 > > Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:27:21 -0800 > > " Patricia Hoffert " <PatriciaHoffert > > RE: Question regarding Indigo Crystals > > > > > > Aileen, > > > > Depending on what you really like, iolite is very similar to a sapphire. > > Love, light, Reiki, and PRISMology...Pat... > > > >##### >Yes Pat, I think Iolite is very similar to my eye and would do nicely for >what I have in mind...now just to find some!! :-) >Thank you! > >Blessings,Aileen >Telepathic Artistry >http://www.aileendonovan.com > > > > > > > >files are online at Http://www.solarraven.com/crystal-entry.html > files, photos, and message archives can be found At: > >, photos, and message archives can be found At: > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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