Guest guest Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 Dear Vicky; You know how to ask the questions .... truly, think about it. A naturally living adult eating health food ... still by the stats has a high chance of getting cancer. Why? Because neither natural foods (including breast milk) nor for that matter, a healthy immune system, are guarantees for good health. Just pieces of the puzzle. There is a term maybe you have heard, " Terrain Medicine " I like it because it offers good graphic for the fact recognized by ayurveda as well for the importance of looking at the whole terrain. Here's some food for thought. Breastfeeding first 6 months has major major advantages to health … you all know many of them, including that a newborn's digestive as well as immune system are immature and Baby is protected by Mom's antibodies thru the milk, right? Antibodies help us fight off an invading organism. But the disease process according to Ayurveda is a 6 step process (called samprapti, one of the things a good diagnostician identifies is which stage the imbalance is at). (Each stage can be discussed in terms of the different doshic possibilities but I'm needing to simplify inspite of my interest). 1. Sanchaya – Accumulation of impurities - in the digestive system. This manifests with Vata in terms of cold, in abdominal distension, gas and bloating. With Pitta summed in terms of sour in indigestion, heartburn, sour, acidic PH. With Kapha summarized in heaviness & cold with heaviness in stomach, poor appetite. 2. Prakopa – Aggravation of the accumulation; provocations 3. Overflow and spreading of the impurities 4. Relocation, depositing in new area of impurities/toxins 5. Manifestion of symptoms, at which point it can be labled more in allopathic terms 6. Diversification, complications, damage to the tissue or organ/s More simply said, Maharishi Vedic Medicine explains that Disease is Blockage of the Flow of Innate Intelligence Through its Channels. We have many kinds and sizes of channels! So, if a baby gets exposed to whooping cough, could be the antibodies are even there for it, but 1. Maybe there are obstacles to proper function of them. 2. Or Excesses of other things, 3. Or the immune response mechanism itself may otherwise be distorted, 4. Or the (virus is it?) disease may be feeding so easily off accumulations of incomplete products of digestion or other impurities, that it is having a hey don't bother me day. To avoid, watch out for the QUALITY of the breast milk, and other physical and non-physical " nourishment " by observing wise lifestyle and eating habits in Mom, and supporting happy restful postpartum. Yes even though all breast milk we could pretty generally say is better than anything else this is an issue to baby's health too, and Ayurveda takes up where it seems most other health systems pretty much leave off. Unfortunately the fight to just get moms to breastfeed overshadows attention/time for all these other issues. In this line of thinking, here are a few more specific ways a Baby might still get sick: 1. If Mom is highly toxic with anything from breast implants to just the usual petrochemical load whether environmental, dietary or body care products, these play their part easily crossing into the milk. 2. A pregnant mom creates toxins which her body excretes thru breast milk, so nursing a toddler (not really baby pre 6 months, but this was on my mind) would not be recommended at this time. 3. If there is lots of stress, from whatever factors – say moving a household at 3 months postpartum, or worse maybe, at 8 months pregnancy when the subtlest product of digestion which has so much to do with immune strength, vitality and glow of life is being passed on to Baby if Mom is in a healthy peaceful and settled state …then Mom and Baby are at a disadvantage no matter how much breastfeeding. 4. If Baby's constitution from genetics through pregnancy nutrition and other experiences and birth experience is completely processing whatever biologically is asked of it, weakness is a side effect or a way of speaking of this phenomenon. 5. If Mom does not get enough rest and support, or is in a chronic rough emotional state, her cortisol (stress hormones) are high and immune system gets challenged. 6. Baby's, just from the vibrational influence alone will also be high. Chronic stress is a big disease precursor. 7. If Mom eats lots of vata increasing and constipating foods, or for whatever other reason Baby is pooping infrequently, toxins back up and create complications such as above. 8. If Mom doesn't get enough good quality cholesterol nor enough EFA 3s her hormones alone will be poor and emotional state prone to depression, creating as I've seen excess codependent emotional energy/stress relationship between her and baby easily be a factor too. 9. If Mom eats a lot of red meat, her milk is heavier and harder to digest. Depending upon Baby's constitution and inherent or acquired digestive strength, this may be a bigger or smaller health issue. Certainly influences the personality/hormonal/tempermental factors. 10. If Mom eats lots of heavy fermented dairy, white flour/sugar/fried things, and cold foods and drinks, her digestive system and resultant immune system will be weaker and prone to phlegm. 11. If Baby frequently is put to breast more than every 2 hours after the first couple weeks, Baby is getting sweet/fresh milk on top of sour milk and digestive system, confused, creates incomplete products of digestion. Think how we feel eating before we have emptied our stomach from a previous meal or snack. Occasionally, no big deal. But often? Yech. Ahem, looking at the (cough cough) respiratory system now, in addition to overall immune STRENGTH and ability to fight off a viral exposure …. Whooping Cough? Just on the level of organizing principles here, not any specific prescription of treatment, but we can look at Aviva Rom's book or any other source of info with these principles and do a better job, right? What corrects these obstructions, excesses, etc? Often the Various levels of digestive fires or transformational chemistries translate enzyme processes (of which there are many!) need to be often babied … forgive the pun. Herbs, exercise, heat, essential oils, rest, touch therapies, energy therapies and of course Maternal intakes and maternal/infant exposures all can be used. Well, whatever the virus, bacteria, fungus, or other disease organism, certainly it has to be dealt with first. Ayurveda says, in order 1. Clear invading organism. (I generally call on therapeutic grade essential oils here). 2. Remove aama (toxins, impurities, obstacles, like that) 3. Rebalance the metabolism (doshas) while addressing the client's presenting complaint 4. Rejuvenate/rebuild Ayurveda is … " Mother of Healing " (Dr. Vasant Lad) " Knowledge of How to Surf the Ever Changing Waves of Life Successfully " (Dr. Saraswati Buhrman) " Knowledge of Life for Longevity " (Maharishi Vedic Medicine) Hope this answers your quesiton? Warm Regards; Martha > You know what I don't understand, Martha? A newborn baby of a natural living > mother who is entirely breastfed for 6 months should have a strong immune > system. He is so new to the world, for heavens sake. So why would he get > whooping cough, allergies, colds, etc.? > Thank you for all the time you expend to share your knowledge. Vicky > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 You certainly are thorough, Martha, and a natural teacher. I can agree with everything you said, now that I understand it all better. I think it would be good, on a side note, to discuss breastfeeding in terms of being the norm, rather than an advantage. Formula has become the norm, unfortunately, so we talk about the advantages of breastfeeding, instead of saying the disadvantages of formula. Boy, being healthy, it's not so easy to get to the beginning of good health, such a shame we can't even give it to our newborns, so they aren'talready born with distorted immune systems. When are you coming to Portland? Vicky ---- Martha Oakes 06/16/05 19:44:52 ayurveda Why do breast fed babies get sick? Dear Vicky; You know how to ask the questions .... truly, think about it. A naturally living adult eating health food ... still by the stats has a high chance of getting cancer. Why? Because neither natural foods (including breast milk) nor for that matter, a healthy immune system, are guarantees for good health. Just pieces of the puzzle. There is a term maybe you have heard, " Terrain Medicine " I like it because it offers good graphic for the fact recognized by ayurveda as well for the importance of looking at the whole terrain. Here's some food for thought. Breastfeeding first 6 months has major major advantages to health … you all know many of them, including that a newborn's digestive as well as immune system are immature and Baby is protected by Mom's antibodies thru the milk, right? Antibodies help us fight off an invading organism. But the disease process according to Ayurveda is a 6 step process (called samprapti, one of the things a good diagnostician identifies is which stage the imbalance is at). (Each stage can be discussed in terms of the different doshic possibilities but I'm needing to simplify inspite of my interest). 1. Sanchaya – Accumulation of impurities - in the digestive system. This manifests with Vata in terms of cold, in abdominal distension, gas and bloating. With Pitta summed in terms of sour in indigestion, heartburn, sour, acidic PH. With Kapha summarized in heaviness & cold with heaviness in stomach, poor appetite. 2. Prakopa – Aggravation of the accumulation; provocations 3. Overflow and spreading of the impurities 4. Relocation, depositing in new area of impurities/toxins 5. Manifestion of symptoms, at which point it can be labled more in allopathic terms 6. Diversification, complications, damage to the tissue or organ/s More simply said, Maharishi Vedic Medicine explains that Disease is Blockage of the Flow of Innate Intelligence Through its Channels. We have many kinds and sizes of channels! So, if a baby gets exposed to whooping cough, could be the antibodies are even there for it, but 1. Maybe there are obstacles to proper function of them. 2. Or Excesses of other things, 3. Or the immune response mechanism itself may otherwise be distorted, 4. Or the (virus is it?) disease may be feeding so easily off accumulations of incomplete products of digestion or other impurities, that it is having a hey don't bother me day. To avoid, watch out for the QUALITY of the breast milk, and other physical and non-physical " nourishment " by observing wise lifestyle and eating habits in Mom, and supporting happy restful postpartum. Yes even though all breast milk we could pretty generally say is better than anything else this is an issue to baby's health too, and Ayurveda takes up where it seems most other health systems pretty much leave off. Unfortunately the fight to just get moms to breastfeed overshadows attention/time for all these other issues. In this line of thinking, here are a few more specific ways a Baby might still get sick: 1. If Mom is highly toxic with anything from breast implants to just the usual petrochemical load whether environmental, dietary or body care products, these play their part easily crossing into the milk. 2. A pregnant mom creates toxins which her body excretes thru breast milk, so nursing a toddler (not really baby pre 6 months, but this was on my mind) would not be recommended at this time. 3. If there is lots of stress, from whatever factors – say moving a household at 3 months postpartum, or worse maybe, at 8 months pregnancy when the subtlest product of digestion which has so much to do with immune strength, vitality and glow of life is being passed on to Baby if Mom is in a healthy peaceful and settled state …then Mom and Baby are at a disadvantage no matter how much breastfeeding. 4. If Baby's constitution from genetics through pregnancy nutrition and other experiences and birth experience is completely processing whatever biologically is asked of it, weakness is a side effect or a way of speaking of this phenomenon. 5. If Mom does not get enough rest and support, or is in a chronic rough emotional state, her cortisol (stress hormones) are high and immune system gets challenged. 6. Baby's, just from the vibrational influence alone will also be high. Chronic stress is a big disease precursor. 7. If Mom eats lots of vata increasing and constipating foods, or for whatever other reason Baby is pooping infrequently, toxins back up and create complications such as above. 8. If Mom doesn't get enough good quality cholesterol nor enough EFA 3s her hormones alone will be poor and emotional state prone to depression, creating as I've seen excess codependent emotional energy/stress relationship between her and baby easily be a factor too. 9. If Mom eats a lot of red meat, her milk is heavier and harder to digest. Depending upon Baby's constitution and inherent or acquired digestive strength, this may be a bigger or smaller health issue. Certainly influences the personality/hormonal/tempermental factors. 10. If Mom eats lots of heavy fermented dairy, white flour/sugar/fried things, and cold foods and drinks, her digestive system and resultant immune system will be weaker and prone to phlegm. 11. If Baby frequently is put to breast more than every 2 hours after the first couple weeks, Baby is getting sweet/fresh milk on top of sour milk and digestive system, confused, creates incomplete products of digestion. Think how we feel eating before we have emptied our stomach from a previous meal or snack. Occasionally, no big deal. But often? Yech. Ahem, looking at the (cough cough) respiratory system now, in addition to overall immune STRENGTH and ability to fight off a viral exposure …. Whooping Cough? Just on the level of organizing principles here, not any specific prescription of treatment, but we can look at Aviva Rom's book or any other source of info with these principles and do a better job, right? What corrects these obstructions, excesses, etc? Often the Various levels of digestive fires or transformational chemistries translate enzyme processes (of which there are many!) need to be often babied … forgive the pun. Herbs, exercise, heat, essential oils, rest, touch therapies, energy therapies and of course Maternal intakes and maternal/infant exposures all can be used. Well, whatever the virus, bacteria, fungus, or other disease organism, certainly it has to be dealt with first. Ayurveda says, in order 1. Clear invading organism. (I generally call on therapeutic grade essential oils here). 2. Remove aama (toxins, impurities, obstacles, like that) 3. Rebalance the metabolism (doshas) while addressing the client's presenting complaint 4. Rejuvenate/rebuild Ayurveda is … " Mother of Healing " (Dr. Vasant Lad) " Knowledge of How to Surf the Ever Changing Waves of Life Successfully " (Dr. Saraswati Buhrman) " Knowledge of Life for Longevity " (Maharishi Vedic Medicine) Hope this answers your quesiton? Warm Regards; Martha > You know what I don't understand, Martha? A newborn baby of a natural living > mother who is entirely breastfed for 6 months should have a strong immune > system. He is so new to the world, for heavens sake. So why would he get > whooping cough, allergies, colds, etc.? > Thank you for all the time you expend to share your knowledge. Vicky > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 Paraphrase from Aviva Jill Romm's Natural Healing for Babies and Children: Chinese medicine also calls whooping cough " the cough of enlightenment " - in the sense that it puts the child through a spiritual trial and the child comes through it with more patience and peacefulness. Whooping cough is called Pertussis after the bacteria - Bortadella Pertussis. It's the P in DPT vaccine. More info on Romm: she deals more with the herbs from Western herbalism and homeopathy. Question: I am new to the list - just a couple months maybe - so my question is: in Ayurveda is the purpose to prevent all illness or is the purpose to minimize illness that will inevitably come? I am familiar with Vedic concepts but not Ayurveda in depth. Do you consider karma or even grace when dealing with the cause of illness or illness in general? Many parents or concerned people ask this question - why do breastfed babies get sick? it's similar to the question of why do vegetarians/healthy eaters get sick? why do children of attachment parents misbehave? As Martha said, it's not a guarantee. Any parent, care giver or health care provider can do all they can to give the best odds to the child for a peaceful, illness free, pain free existence, but there are so many variables in life that ensure surprises will come. Sometimes despite the intent of love and intelligence, fate allows something else. Stress can definitely effect the mother's physical health and can cause mastitis (plugged ducts) in breastfeeding. And babies and children often react to the parents' stress which can cause them stress too. Then immunity is lowered. Deepak Chopra is a medical doctor as well as Ayurvedic doctor and he explains in one of his books that meningitus can live on the spine without causing meningitus if the person deals healthfully with stress, which keeps the immunity high. He explains, as many other holistic healers and quantum physicists, etc. have, that our thoughts/consciousness creates reality. Just as accumulation of impurities happens in the body, it can also happen in the mind (media exposure, arguments, resentments, memories of dysfuntional situations, trauma). If they are not digested properly they build up and warp, grow, manifest, complicate our life. Martha said: watch out for the QUALITY of the breast milk Kalavati: In my learning, I've understood that the quality of breastmilk is actually quite similar among women, no matter what they eat or if they are malnourished, ill or diseased. I do understand that subtle energies can still be there, but that breastmilk is breastmilk. Martha, can you please explain this to me so I can understand what you mean? I've also heard at various times that in Vedic culture women breastfed until around age 5. This allows the growing child to understand in a practical way what breastfeeding is and keeps the " breast consciousness " pure, not perverted like in some cultures. If breastmilk is at the same time fundamentally the same in quality while being versatile to the child's needs, what are the reasons for weaning at 11 months as posted recently? I appreciate Vicky's comment that breastfeeding is the norm and the dysadvantages go to formula. This is helpful to encourage moms to breastfeed because it frees them from the idea that breastfeeding is like gymnastics - nice but not necessary. Martha said: The doctor commented that the recent generation of children were generally the first or second in a long meat and potato type dietary lineage who were changing their dietary habits thanks to guidance from their parents going health food conscious, vegetarian, etc. The effect of exploring many things, changing a deep pattern, whether you call it genetic or not the body has adapted and is having to adapt in new ways. This doctor observed in clients that this creates a more fragile status, where he saw more succeptibility to intense reactions even life threatening to the vaccinations as well as other medical interventions and often, dissease influences. Kalavati: I think this is very true. I think this situation has a lot to do with a gentler consciousness, a gentler being. Anyone familiar with Anthroposophy or Michael W. Fox's Boundless Circle may remember the idea that the more sensitive, evolved souls actually tend to suffer on a more profound level than less aware souls. So, even on a basic physical level, it would make sense that a more delicate, refined body would feel the gap between a lower/heavier bodily consciousness and a higher/lighter spirit consciousness. Martha, do you have any input for my questions and ramblings? Thanks, Kalavati Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Quite agree. to discuss breastfeeding in terms > of being the norm, rather than an advantage. Formula has become the norm, Portland looks like 4th of th 5 weekends in July and the week after in Long Beach, so I'll have a few days possibly before if you are free 1 plus? Did you see my post on the postpartum doulas forum? Any interest in a class, do you think? " tis short notice ... Martha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Very interesting observaton ... so whooping cough is especially difficult experience then... probably because of the cant breathe? middle of the night coughs and the weeks and weeks involved? > Chinese medicine also calls whooping cough " the cough of enlightenment " - in the sense that it puts the child through a spiritual trial and the child comes through it with more patience and peacefulness. So with whooping cough being a bacteria, I'd get serious about the strongest and broadest spectrum antibacterials, found in the (quite heating oils of) clove, cinnamon, thyme, oregano, moutain savory, rosemary, lemon, like that. The Young Living EOIls company blend mentioned before called THieves has many of them, not the green herb ones though. And some consistent attention on anticatarrals, along with the gentler linctus (honey-herb paste) mentioned by Radhika. > is: in Ayurveda is the purpose to prevent all illness I think this is an unreasonable expectation! See three of the definitions of Ayurveda on bottom of message 333 which I think answers your questoin. Do you consider karma or even grace when dealing > with the cause of illness or illness in general? Depends upon how skilled, intuitive or otherwise wise the practitioner is, and in any case of course! Life is found in layers; layered intelligence, layered krma, layered grace, layers of tissues and systems, all this and more. > Sometimes despite the intent of love and intelligence, fate > allows something else. Sometimes the " love too much " issue creates a response in the baby to want to restore balance - changing the subject, or style of behavior or physiological reaction. Sometimes the not enough love similarly calls out the other so many lessons, so many delights, so many creative ways to live life. Parenting is certainly a major spiritual path. > > Stress can definitely ...cause > mastitis (plugged ducts) in breastfeeding. The midwives and herbalists all agree on mastitis - #1 cause is overdoing! Have you ever seen Deepak Chopra's book, Perfect Health? Quite indepth intro to Ayurveda. I used to hear him speak often when he came through Fairfield Iowa. Fascinating speaker, loaded with great info and insight! > > Kalavati: In my learning, I've understood that the quality of breastmilk is actually quite similar among women, no matter what they eat or if they are malnourished, ill or diseased. I do understand that subtle energies can still be there, but that breastmilk is breastmilk. It is wishful thinking, unfortunately. To to the extent it is quite similar compared to say another species, or compared to the dead and polluted forumlas so many infants are sadly fed. Martha, can you please explain this to me so I can understand what you mean? We take some time in the Foundations of New Mother & Infant Care and Cooking class to discuss this in more detail, and also as I believe Vicky's question had this understanding behind it, this is why I spent so much time last night answering this question. Please read my response again; all those things can affect quality of the breast milk not just vibrationally. Consider this also; some women's milk is sweeter tasting, some creamier and more yellow, some more blue and thin, just like some goat milk tastes great and other tastes " goaty " . Any mother's milk - cow, goat, mare, human etc can vary within the species including also bitter, spicey, even sour or astringent. Dairy men know this. Petrochemical, heavy metal and other pollutants are also being measured in milk of some neighborhoods and some women. Depends upon what Mom's been eating, how fed, exercised, what sun, happiness factors as well as others discussed in post 333 all influence the quality of the milk. Very simply put, heavy,old foods makes the breast milk heavier and harder to digest, too light and too much change in Mom's life makes it less nutritious and less tasty, and physical, emotional, mental or spiritual heat/intensity can make it sour, spicy or otherwise less than ideal in that direction!!! Ayurveda defines 3 basic types of breast milk issues by doshic qualities! I've also heard at various times > that in Vedic culture women breastfed until around age 5. This allows the growing child to understand in a practical way what breastfeeding is and keeps the " breast consciousness " pure, not perverted like in some cultures. Certainly a good perspective if one chooses to breastfeed for so long. The issue is Maternal physical health and maternal-infant emotional needs which may dictate this more, or perhaps certain areas of the country you have heard about. What I have heard is different, either way the loving attengtions is of course key. If breastmilk is at the same time fundamentally the same in quality while being versatile to the child's needs, what are the reasons for weaning at 11 months as posted recently? The quality or the breast milk and of Mother's experience/ease in nuturing also will decline if as I see WAY too often happens, the mother is bent on too much activity, lots of raw foods, low fat diet, insufficient EFA 3s and B 12, and leftovers. The child's needs change, requiring more concentrated and diverse nourishment for growth, becoming dominant by the end of the first year usually. If it is comfortable to extend breastfeeding and it is not becoming an emotional strain on top of the bliss of it, by all means enjoy! My concern is for the way under-cared for mothers, if the babies are provided suitable solid and liquid foods, and understanding weaning becomes more of a big " issue " emotionally after about a year. Otherwise it is healthwise wise to look at the situation. As they say in India, if the goat (used in certain cultures as work animal!) is not carrying the load properly, one must lighten the load - or strengthen the goat. This is also provided very well with ayurvedic medicine rejuvenative dietary, lifestyle and herbal supports. Usually I find such is needed in addition to lighening the breastfeeding, or weaning. I appreciate Vicky's comment that breastfeeding is the norm and > the dysadvantages go to formula. I do not expect that anyone on this forum has any less concern for the importance for everyone to understand breastfeedin is normal and formula is very abnormal. Forgive if the use of the word advantages inplied ANYTHING else! It was chosen not on that issue of comparison, but to bring attention to the specifics of breastmilk, what it does for the baby's immune system, and to start the conversation from there, per Vicky's questoin. If (when!) I turn this into an article for publication, I'll be more careful to explain my intent, and to preface with what is obvious to us all here. > > Kalavati: (re immunization reactions) to do with a gentler consciousness, a gentler being. Anyone familiar with > Anthroposophy or Michael W. Fox's Boundless Circle may remember the idea that the more sensitive, evolved souls actually tend to suffer on a more profound level than less aware souls. So, even on a basic physical level, it would make sense > that a more delicate, refined body would feel the gap between a lower/heavier bodily consciousness and a higher/lighter spirit consciousness. Well put. Who is Michael Fox - the movie star? Is Boundless Circle a good movie? Namaste Martha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Dear Martha ~ Thank you for all of your input to my questions! Michael W. Fox (Not Michael J. Fox!) is a spiritual veterinarian so to speak. He has written a lot of books on caring for animals and lead the humane society at some point. Boundless Circle is a book - a really good book - about spiritual connection to/through all beings. Yes, Perfect Health is the book I was referring to. Thanks~ Kalavati Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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