Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been doing some research on addiction. I found it strange that > there is little or no mention of addiction in the four major > classics. I'm sure the ancient Chinese would of drank excessive > alcohol and in more recent times, thousands were addicted to opium. > So where's all the literature on it? > > Anyone got any ideas? Hi Attilio! Just a guess: They didn't consider it much of a problem? Celebrated drunkenness even? Thinking of that painting of the Chinese philosopher being carried home by his pals. In one of the textbooks, can't find it now. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Attilio, I have not actually spent any time looking in the Classics for information on Addiction. I have, however, spent the last 2 1/2 years working as a addiction counselor in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I spent about 18 months working as the detox counselor. I was unable to get acu-detox implemented before the center closed b/c of financial mis-management. My belief is that it will be left to this generation of practitioners to create the literature. I am pretty sure I am not the one to create such as I am not a writer and have no inclination to produce literature. I get the impression that practitioners are hesitant to work with addicts as they tend to be contrary to authority and non-compliant. I have heard of many out-patient detox programs yet to my knoledge there are very few RTC-setting acupunture programs, at least in the U.S. (I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico). I am longing to hear of programs (residential) in which is an integral component of the treatment planning. The treatment center in which I am (again) working is open to my practicing here, however, as is the case in many aspects of this particular nation/society lack of funding inhibits implementation. While I am willing to practice at low cost I am unwilling to practice at no cost. I appreciate any and (mostly) all input regarding this topic. My long-term goal is to focus on working with addicts and also with veterans (I am a Gulf War Veteran-1991). We tend to be a much overlooked group once our services are completed. Be well. Peace, Daniel Craig, DOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Historically addiction in China has not been well documented as it was not seen as a major cause of disease (with epidemics ect going around). In the classics (such as the Huang Din Nei Jing, and Taoist texts) it is clear that from a physicians and scholars point of view anything to the excess was considered dangerous to ones health. And for alcohol disorders there are a few mentions of the pathological manifestations that can occur, such as Heat, or Damp Heat, toxins etc. Opium was seen as a well accepted social drug, and not really harmful in its initiall introduction to China. I'm sure, with a little more searching we could find some literature from the late 1800's. Addiction has become worse in the last 20 + years in China due to the rise in Heroin abuse. So i guess this generation may be the ones to do the new literature. DSW Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've been doing some research on addiction. I found it strange that > > there is little or no mention of addiction in the four major > > classics. I'm sure the ancient Chinese would of drank excessive > > alcohol and in more recent times, thousands were addicted to opium. > > So where's all the literature on it? > > > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Hi Attilio! > > Just a guess: They didn't consider it much of a problem? Celebrated > drunkenness even? > > Thinking of that painting of the Chinese philosopher being carried home > by his pals. In one of the textbooks, can't find it now. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Thanks Dave and Pete. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. 07786198900 enquiries <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sydneytcm 25 August 2005 03:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Addiction Historically addiction in China has not been well documented as it was not seen as a major cause of disease (with epidemics ect going around). In the classics (such as the Huang Din Nei Jing, and Taoist texts) it is clear that from a physicians and scholars point of view anything to the excess was considered dangerous to ones health. And for alcohol disorders there are a few mentions of the pathological manifestations that can occur, such as Heat, or Damp Heat, toxins etc. Opium was seen as a well accepted social drug, and not really harmful in its initiall introduction to China. I'm sure, with a little more searching we could find some literature from the late 1800's. Addiction has become worse in the last 20 + years in China due to the rise in Heroin abuse. So i guess this generation may be the ones to do the new literature. DSW Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've been doing some research on addiction. I found it strange that > > there is little or no mention of addiction in the four major > > classics. I'm sure the ancient Chinese would of drank excessive > > alcohol and in more recent times, thousands were addicted to opium. > > So where's all the literature on it? > > > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Hi Attilio! > > Just a guess: They didn't consider it much of a problem? Celebrated > drunkenness even? > > Thinking of that painting of the Chinese philosopher being carried home > by his pals. In one of the textbooks, can't find it now. > > Regards, > > Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Hi Daniel, You might be interested in contacting Mitch Lehmann in San Diego. He is also a veteran, and working with the VA in San Diego to do some acupuncture with veterans who experience Post Traumatic Stress and also addictions. You can reach him through Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in San Diego. Andrea Beth Dmasky, L.Ac. Daniel Craig <domdanc wrote: Attilio, I have not actually spent any time looking in the Classics for information on Addiction. I have, however, spent the last 2 1/2 years working as a addiction counselor in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I spent about 18 months working as the detox counselor. I was unable to get acu-detox implemented before the center closed b/c of financial mis-management. My belief is that it will be left to this generation of practitioners to create the literature. I am pretty sure I am not the one to create such as I am not a writer and have no inclination to produce literature. I get the impression that practitioners are hesitant to work with addicts as they tend to be contrary to authority and non-compliant. I have heard of many out-patient detox programs yet to my knoledge there are very few RTC-setting acupunture programs, at least in the U.S. (I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico). I am longing to hear of programs (residential) in which is an integral component of the treatment planning. The treatment center in which I am (again) working is open to my practicing here, however, as is the case in many aspects of this particular nation/society lack of funding inhibits implementation. While I am willing to practice at low cost I am unwilling to practice at no cost. I appreciate any and (mostly) all input regarding this topic. My long-term goal is to focus on working with addicts and also with veterans (I am a Gulf War Veteran-1991). We tend to be a much overlooked group once our services are completed. Be well. Peace, Daniel Craig, DOM http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Modern TCM treatments for addiction stem from the treament of former Kuo Min Tong soldiers who were opium addicts. When they joined the Maoist 8th route army and were later wounded it was dicovered that patients who recieved Ac analgesia had a lessened drug craving. Later Drs at Kwang Wah developed a further refined protocol and from this the current Lincoln Hospital / NADA protocol was developed. Doc Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sydneytcm 25 August 2005 03:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Addiction Historically addiction in China has not been well documented as it was not seen as a major cause of disease (with epidemics ect going around). In the classics (such as the Huang Din Nei Jing, and Taoist texts) it is clear that from a physicians and scholars point of view anything to the excess was considered dangerous to ones health. And for alcohol disorders there are a few mentions of the pathological manifestations that can occur, such as Heat, or Damp Heat, toxins etc. Opium was seen as a well accepted social drug, and not really harmful in its initiall introduction to China. I'm sure, with a little more searching we could find some literature from the late 1800's. Addiction has become worse in the last 20 + years in China due to the rise in Heroin abuse. So i guess this generation may be the ones to do the new literature. DSW Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've been doing some research on addiction. I found it strange that > > there is little or no mention of addiction in the four major > > classics. I'm sure the ancient Chinese would of drank excessive > > alcohol and in more recent times, thousands were addicted to opium. > > So where's all the literature on it? > > > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Hi Attilio! > > Just a guess: They didn't consider it much of a problem? Celebrated > drunkenness even? > > Thinking of that painting of the Chinese philosopher being carried home > by his pals. In one of the textbooks, can't find it now. > > Regards, > > Pete I am only one; but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse to do the something I can do. - Helen Keller Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Addiction is documented in Qing Dynasty medical texts with regard to opium addiction. I am not aware of the scope of references to alcohol abuse in classical literature. Zhang Zhong-Jing refers to " jiu ke " (which appears to mean more or less, alcohol users) as a certain class of patients and I believe he had a different approach to treating them. But this has nothing to do with treating people for alchohol abuse specifically. Li Dong-Yuan had a famous formula to deal with the side effects of too much alcohol, with appropriate modifications based on symptoms. In modern Taiwan, it is recognized that this formula reduces the effects of alcohol somewhat, and it is considered to be a risky formula to use in alcoholics because they can drink more yet get less drunk. This is a bad thing because then their alcohol intake then increases. But I am not aware of Li Dong-Yuan having any formulas for chronic alcohol abuse. So in short, further research will need to be done to figure out if there was any recognition of alcoholism as a disease or something requiring treatment in classical Chinese medical literature. At what point was it recognized in European literature? Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Do you have a reference for the addicted Kuo Min Tong soldiers Doc? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. 07786198900 enquiries <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Doc 25 August 2005 21:58 Chinese Medicine RE: Addiction Modern TCM treatments for addiction stem from the treament of former Kuo Min Tong soldiers who were opium addicts. When they joined the Maoist 8th route army and were later wounded it was dicovered that patients who recieved Ac analgesia had a lessened drug craving. Later Drs at Kwang Wah developed a further refined protocol and from this the current Lincoln Hospital / NADA protocol was developed. Doc Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sydneytcm 25 August 2005 03:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Addiction Historically addiction in China has not been well documented as it was not seen as a major cause of disease (with epidemics ect going around). In the classics (such as the Huang Din Nei Jing, and Taoist texts) it is clear that from a physicians and scholars point of view anything to the excess was considered dangerous to ones health. And for alcohol disorders there are a few mentions of the pathological manifestations that can occur, such as Heat, or Damp Heat, toxins etc. Opium was seen as a well accepted social drug, and not really harmful in its initiall introduction to China. I'm sure, with a little more searching we could find some literature from the late 1800's. Addiction has become worse in the last 20 + years in China due to the rise in Heroin abuse. So i guess this generation may be the ones to do the new literature. DSW Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've been doing some research on addiction. I found it strange that > > there is little or no mention of addiction in the four major > > classics. I'm sure the ancient Chinese would of drank excessive > > alcohol and in more recent times, thousands were addicted to opium. > > So where's all the literature on it? > > > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Hi Attilio! > > Just a guess: They didn't consider it much of a problem? Celebrated > drunkenness even? > > Thinking of that painting of the Chinese philosopher being carried home > by his pals. In one of the textbooks, can't find it now. > > Regards, > > Pete I am only one; but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse to do the something I can do. - Helen Keller Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2005 Report Share Posted August 27, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Eric, > > Do you know the name of Li Dong Yuan's famous alcoholism formula? Attilio, As I said, Li Dong-Yuan's formula (ge hua jie cheng tang) is NOT a formula for alcoholism. Not only is it NOT a formula for alcoholism, it is a formula that is very risky to give to alcoholics!!! Ge hua jie cheng tang is a formula for treating alcohol accumulation, possibly with retching and vomiting, diarrhea [or] glomus blockage, headache, [and/or] inhibited urination. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2005 Report Share Posted August 27, 2005 Eric, I asked what it was called not that I was going to use it on patients. I did read the rest of your mail which included the section on its harmful effects. Many thanks for the info. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. 07786198900 enquiries <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Eric Brand 27 August 2005 17:13 Chinese Medicine Re: Addiction Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Eric, > > Do you know the name of Li Dong Yuan's famous alcoholism formula? Attilio, As I said, Li Dong-Yuan's formula (ge hua jie cheng tang) is NOT a formula for alcoholism. Not only is it NOT a formula for alcoholism, it is a formula that is very risky to give to alcoholics!!! Ge hua jie cheng tang is a formula for treating alcohol accumulation, possibly with retching and vomiting, diarrhea [or] glomus blockage, headache, [and/or] inhibited urination. Eric http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Eric, > > I asked what it was called not that I was going to use it on patients. I did > read the rest of your mail which included the section on its harmful > effects. It's not a harmful formula. It is a great formula. It should be used on patients. It is just not a formula for alcoholism, that's all. It is a formula for treating alcohol accumulation (jiu ji), for offsetting the heat and toxin produced by alcohol overcomsumption ( " jiu da re you du " = " alcohol is very hot and is toxic " ). It has nothing to do with addiction or chronic abuse. It is a formula to resolve the symptoms of drinking too much. It is perfectly appropriate for the symptoms listed in its indications, but no mention is made of its use in alcoholism. It appears to be a formula meant for short term use in a normal patient who drank too much one night. Some modern doctors think that it is problematic to give to alcoholics because it reduces the side-effects of drinking too much and thus can encourage them to drink more with fewer adverse effects. But even with reduced side effects (possibly better alcohol metabolism???), increasing alcohol consumption in an alcoholic is not generally desired. For the alcohol user who drinks too much one night, it is ideal. It is a formula for alcohol use, not chronic alcohol abuse per se. I hear that it causes one to feel less drunk and reduces hangover. I was simply replying because the message heading somehow got turned into Li Dong-Yuan's famous formula for alcoholism. I was pointing out that it is not a formula for alcoholism. I am unaware of Chinese medical theory for alcoholism. It may exist but someone needs to research it and let us know. As far as I know, theory of addiction is only present in Qing Dynasty texts for opium. Alcohol addiction may have established theory, I just haven't read about it yet. Best, Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 Hi Eric, Attilio & All, > Li Dong-Yuan's formula (ge hua jie cheng tang) is NOT a formula for > alcoholism. Not only is it NOT a formula for alcoholism, it is a > formula that is very risky to give to alcoholics!!! It is a formula > for treating alcohol accumulation, possibly with retching and vomiting, > diarrhea [or] glomus blockage, headache, [and/or] inhibited urination. > Eric See data on Gehua Jiecheng Tang at: http://qualiherbeast.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=108 http://www.itmonline.org/arts/jinyuan.htm http://www.itmonline.org/arts/pueraria.htm http://www.holsome.com/html/products/before_after.html http://www.herbalmedicineuk.com/Pages/product_full.mv?code=F3710 http://www.craneherb.com/Products/Product009279 Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Andrea, Thank you for the information. I just got this post today and will search for him soon. Be well. Peace, Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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