Guest guest Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here. Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs. Emre Gurcan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 IMO I think that the FDA and all non-herbal meds should be taken off the shelves. I was on FOUR (4) different kinds at the same time for over the six (6) months LIMIT. I just quite taking them and asked my God & Goddess to help me thru this mess. So it does not do any good when people go out and kill others. What would you do if your kids or kids was on them types and went out and shot up there school and killed ther class mates. Or your husband who worked here in Ohio for the unemployment andecy in Columbus and killed a co-woker. What would you do?????????????????? When you found out that the SSRI pills made him do it you will sue the company who made them pills. Well you will be rich, but your kid(s), or mate will be in prison for the rest of your or there lives. But it is ok for them to take such CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMO Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 IMHO Emre Gurcanyou are so wrong. YOU should NEVER be on thoes types of MED. for more then six(6) months........ NEVER. This was told to me by several Dr.s Both Natural, and Allopathy. Go figure....... It is a big money game Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2002 Report Share Posted December 26, 2002 Emre, with the help of a good Naturopathic Doctor you can ease off these poisons permanently. Because an ND which is a true healer would get to the source of the problem and correct it, as well as designing a program to ease off the SSRI. Janet - emre.gurcan herbal remedies Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:41 PM [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil? Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here.Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.Emre GurcanFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Dear Cat, Just getting caught up on my emails, and I see you're the one who started this great debate ROTFLOL ;o) Wellllllllll, not to worry. I love a good debate. I suggest you send me your full name and address off list, and I'll have my office fire off one of those free cassette lectures. Many of your answers (and solutions) are in there. I'm not sure about the 5-htp as I don't think it has much of a track record yet???, anyway, I think you need to get more specific with your symptoms as there are probably other physical things going on with you. Right??? After listening to my cassette lecture, you'll understand how important "Nutrition" plays a part in this merry go round you've gotten yourself onto. It's the place to start. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - Cat <catlovescats herbal remedies Tuesday, December 24, 2002 8:45 PM [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil? Hey there! I'm new... I've been diagnosed with OCD and GAD and have been on Paxil for almost 2 years... It's worked wonderfully but as I have no insurance the $100 a month is killing me! The last time I tried to stop "cold turkey" I had a terrible time. Back to the suicidal, check-everything-3-times-before-you-can-leave-the-house, high-strung, extremely anxious person I was. I really don't want to go there again!!! (I swear I'm not crazy - don't be afraid! )I've been doing some 'net searching and saw 5-htp... I was wanting to know if anyone is using it and how that's going... Also, what else is good with that? I've read some on Vit. B-6 and Taurine and Magnesium (I think)...Any advice would be most appreciated!Merry Christmas!Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 herbal remedies , " Dr. Ian Shillington " <Dr.IanShillington@G...> wrote: > Dear Cat, > > Just getting caught up on my emails, and I see you're the one who started this great debate ROTFLOL ;o) > Yup, I'm the instigator! It just shows you really can argue about anything. LOL Sending an email your way. Thanks! Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Dear Randy, Not that everyone goes homicidal on SSRI pills, you are absolutely correct in that every school shooting to date, there was a psychiatric drug involved. Furthermore, I once did a study on "Serial Killers", and discovered that every single one of them was or had been on Psych drugs. Interesting statistic. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - Randal Wilson, Sr. herbal remedies Tuesday, December 24, 2002 9:36 PM Re: [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil? Get off that Paxil now before you go off and kill some one. My opinion. go to www... scroll down and you'll see a link to a wierd place and go there and there will be a Million links. look for it. All thoes kids killing them selves in schools. WELL they all were on thoes SSRI Pills. My opinion. Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Dear Sara, The advice may be very "incomplete". But "irresponsible"??? I don't think so. Its basis is quite accurate so I hope that "smack" aside the head was with a noodle rather than a 2x4. ;o) Even though one can go through a physical "Hell" when one quits "cold turkey", this is sometimes a better alternative than to continue living in the surrealistic nightmare of psych drugs. Notice, I say "sometimes". Ideally, one would also start a detox program and get started on a Nutritional regimen at the same time one quits the drugs (cold turkey or otherwise). I can guarantee you that "clinical depression" is NEVER, nor has it EVER been the "Cause" for suicide or any other condition. "Clinical Depression" is itself a "SYMPTOM". It is the end result. It is the effect created, not the "Cause". Suicide is simply the bottom of the "Clinical Depression" barrel. The rest of that barrel is, "Dying" and various degrees of it. Suicide and Death itself are simply at the bottom of that same barrel. I know whereof I speak here, having had to hand approx 10,000 cases with a plethora of supposed "mental" disorders of which over 2,000 of them were directly observable by me personally. Most undoubtedly you may have suffered from chemical imbalances due to toxicity, but more importantly you were also suffering from "Bio-chemical" imbalances. I'd also be willing to bet the farm that you have had an inordinate amount of stress in your life as well. And I don't just mean mental stress (at the root of all debility), but also physical stress as well from bad nutrition and from improper bio-chemical supplementation. The reason why one can continue to have suicidal tendancies after having taken psych drugs is because these drugs lodge in the fatty tissues of the body and can have a "time release" effect under certain circumstances. As long as you continue to look at these "mental" disorders as the "Cause" rather than simply as symptoms, you'll never be able to go deeper to find a permanent cure. I wrote an article a few weeks ago to the list having to do with "Labels" (of diseases) and how the medical profession has done all of us a disservice by practising this custom. I suggest you read it for it may give you a fresh new viewpoint on this. THERE ARE NO INCURABLE DISEASES!!! NONE! As a corrollary, one could also say that, "ALL DISEASE IS CURABLE!!!" ALL OF IT! Some people are NOT curable, but all disease IS. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - sfatula (aka Sara) <sfatula_2000 herbal remedies Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:12 AM [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? *smacks head*Your advice here is irresponsible, IMO. It is dangerous to quit some medications cold turkey, which is what you seem to be suggesting, and SSRI's are one type of medication in that category.Besides which, did you ever consider that the common reason SSRI's are prescribed (clinical depression) could be the underlying cause for suicide? Having suffered with chemical imbalances that had me on Zoloft (another SSRI) for years, I can tell you that even with medication it is still possible to experience suicidal episodes.Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Doc, another great article thanks ;-) I have a question on 5-HTP. Isn't the main ingredient griffonia seeds? and what in the world did they do to them to merit naming it "5-HTP"? Sounds fishy to me. Janet - Dr. Ian Shillington herbal remedies Saturday, December 28, 2002 4:51 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Boy, if I hear St. John's Wort compared to psych drugs one more time, I think I'll scream. Calling St. John's Wort "Herbal Prozac" is probably the greatest insult one could level towards such a great herb. Do you know that using SJW in this fashion and for "mental" disorders has just recently become the vogue??? What a crock!!! The only possible effect SJW could have on anyone who was somewhat uptight with a "mental" disorder would be that it tends to purify the system somewhat, and that this action might then relieve internal disorders allowing a person to possibly feel more relaxed. And I say this reservedly. Historically, SJW is used as an Astringent, an expectorant, and as a diuretic. It's main use for centuries has been in the area of coughs, colds, and primarily in lung diseases. It is also one helluva diuretic and is highly esteemed in handling urinary problems, and also for helping with sores, wounds, ulcers, and swellings, etc. I'd never use SJW on a patient of mine who was complaining of a "mental disorder". There are far better herbs for this such as Lobelia, Passion Flower, Hops, Valerian, Black & Blue Cohosh, and Skullcap to name the major players in this arena. If I didn't know better (and maybe I don't), I'd say this SJW push is a plot by the pharmaceuticals to Black PR herbal remedies. What better way to "prove" herbal medicine doesn't work than by pushing the wrong herb to handle some symptom. Sheesh!!! Let me say this loud and clear, "ST. JOHN'S WORT IS NOT, AND NEVER HAS BEEN, DESIGNED TO HANDLE ANY KIND OF MENTAL PROBLEM"!!!!! If it should ever do so, it is either by accident, or because it is relieving some internal physical pressure that is contributing to the mental problem, and that's it. That's all of it. As far as using 5-HTP is concerned, I've never used it personally and so am not speaking from experience here, but my first thought would be to use an orginal Tryptophan source rather than a processed version of the "real" thing. This is IMOHO. Have you ever noticed that right after eating a big turkey dinner, you tend to want to go to sleep??? Welllllllll, that's because turkey is loaded full of L-Tryptophan (the real thing). You can cook a turkey (and make sure it's certified ORGANIC!!!), and have leftovers for a week or two. Great stuff, easy to make, and is actually efficient to have on hand for a fast meal!!! And it will keep you relaxed LOL ) I agree that it can be very traumatic to come down off of these insane and destructive psych drugs, but the key to cutting these out "Cold Turkey" is NUTRITION. These drugs not only destroy vitamins in the body, they also interfere with enzyme production and activity. Soooooooooo, cutting 'em out "cold turkey" is NOT recommended unless at the same time you start a nutritional program to offset the somatics turned on by the withdrawal. This can be done using the Total Nutrition Formula and the Dragon Snot Recipe (in the files). A common regimen would be to start the DS on Day 1 while at the same time cutting back to 2/3rds of the SSRI taken. On Day 2 continue the DS and cut back to 1/3rd the SSRI dosage. On day 3, cut out the SSRI altogether. When proper nutrition is taken into consideration, it can be done that fast. As a word of caution: Remember, these drugs also lodge in the fatty tissues of the body, and can, under a detox situation or under some heavy physical activity, cause a person to reexperience the effects of these drugs, even when having lain dormant over a period of years. I'd recommend anyone who is coming off of any of these psych drugs (or street drugs for that matter), that they do a thorough and complete detox of the entire body while cutting out the drugs cold turkey. This is the safest way to recover from the negative effects of these horrors. Remember, that as Naturopaths, we want to handle the "source" or "cause" of the problem. Substituting SJW (or any herb) for Paxil without making any of the other necessary lifestyle changes is just substituting one bandaid for another, and this is NOT what natural healing is all about. Ohhhhhhh, bandaids have their uses, and no doubt about that, but why go on suffering when you can go for the gusto and shoot for a permanent "CURE". Depression and anxiety are only symptoms. It is the end result of a previous "Cause", and that "Cause" is almost always an imbalance in the nutritional or biochemical (herbs, amino acids, enzymes, etc.) activity happening in the body. Yes, there can be true "mental" reasons such as stress, and mental aberrations as a result of unpleasant experiences "causing" the conditions, but these can be handled too, without the use of drugs. Sara, if you are winning using SJW and 5-HTP, then by all means keep using them, but don't stop there with the symptomatic relief you are getting from these. Why walk when you can learn to fly??? Look for the "Cause", and if you can't find it on your own, give me a call and I'll help. Using the above 2 regimens is about 1/100th of what you can do and is very limited in scope. Trust me on this one, there are whole new vistas you can open up for yourself. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - sfatula (aka Sara) <sfatula_2000 herbal remedies Wednesday, December 25, 2002 6:34 AM [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? St. Johnswort works pretty well as a mild SSRI (the same type of medication as Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, etc.). I remember reading about a couple of other things that work well as SSRI's, one of them being the 5-htp. With SSRI's, you should never quit taking them cold turkey. A few months ago, I was on 100mg of Zoloft twice a day, so when I declared my independence from pharmaceuticals I knew it would be one of the last I could quit taking entirely. I finally got taken off of it at the beginning of this month (after being gradually stepped down and at the same time stepping up my use of St. Johnswort and 5-htp to compensate).SaraFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Dear Emre, Your post seems to me to be very allopathically oriented and not naturopathic or herbally supportive and therefore comes across as being quite ignorant of what herbs can truly do??? When you say, "Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician.", I have to ask these questions, "What exactly do you mean by a 'qualified physician'?", and "Are you not aware that it is these 'qualified physicians' who get people on SSRI's in the first place???". In my evaluation, this is like asking an IRS agent to do one's taxes, or like asking a wolf to look after the sheep. Furthermore you say, "Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.", and again I have to ask, "Who in hell would want to replace depression drugs with an herbal 'look-a-like' since they are so destructive in the first place?", and "why would anyone want to take depression drugs since they truly have no benefit whatsoever?". I don't necessarily mean to come down on you hard here, and my father always told me I had the subtlety and finesse of a bowel movement ;o) however, I need to ask you, "Did you come to this list to learn of alternative, naturopathic methods, or did you come here to flaunt, 'Having been on SSRI for two years and having studied these drugs very extensively at professional level' and promote your own allopathic "professionalism"??? If you think you have all the answers and yet are promoting allopathy, I kinda wonder why you're here. ??? Just asking. Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - emre.gurcan herbal remedies Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:41 PM [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil? Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here.Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.Emre Gurcan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Dear Doc, Your father was right. Until you have had severe panic disorder and nothing natural works, do not throw words of ignorance out. I tried everything herbal , I went off my meds and nothing worked.NOW I have to agree with you on Dr.s they like to give out Drugs and keep you on them but believe me, we all are differant and sometimes nature just doesn't have the answer.Sometimes things like changing your thinking, your stress level and your focus in life come first.Unfortuanately I have been on many differant antidepressants for almost 13 years because of severe panic disorder. It's not a pretty illness and there are no herbs to lighten the load. I changed my brain process in thinking, deleted as much stress as possible and am down to 25 mgs of Paxil and am looking forward to the day of not taking any drugs, but am very thankfull they were available to help me when I was so very ill. Walk ten minutes in my shoes and you would not be so bold about why some do have to take the antidepressants, even though we dont want to. So when people ask you for a alternative measure remember they are hurting not trying to look ignorant. Thank You, Henrietta herbal remedies , " Dr. Ian Shillington " <Dr.IanShillington@G...> wrote: > Dear Emre, > > Your post seems to me to be very allopathically oriented and not naturopathic or herbally supportive and therefore comes across as being quite ignorant of what herbs can truly do??? > > When you say, " Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. " , I have to ask these questions, " What exactly do you mean by a 'qualified physician'? " , and " Are you not aware that it is these 'qualified physicians' who get people on SSRI's in the first place??? " . In my evaluation, this is like asking an IRS agent to do one's taxes, or like asking a wolf to look after the sheep. > > Furthermore you say, " Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs. " , and again I have to ask, " Who in hell would want to replace depression drugs with an herbal 'look-a-like' since they are so destructive in the first place? " , and " why would anyone want to take depression drugs since they truly have no benefit whatsoever? " . > > I don't necessarily mean to come down on you hard here, and my father always told me I had the subtlety and finesse of a bowel movement ;o) however, I need to ask you, " Did you come to this list to learn of alternative, naturopathic methods, or did you come here to flaunt, 'Having been on SSRI for two years and having studied these drugs very extensively at professional level' and promote your own allopathic " professionalism " ??? > > If you think you have all the answers and yet are promoting allopathy, I kinda wonder why you're here. ??? > > Just asking. > > Doc > > Ian " Doc " Shillington N.D. > 505-772-5889 > Dr.IanShillington@G... > - > emre.gurcan@p... > herbal remedies > Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:41 PM > [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil? > > > Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here. > Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs. > > Emre Gurcan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 EXACTLY! St.John's Wort is like taking nothing when it comes to depression. Someone did want the herbs to look like they were failing here. True we need a better solution. Thank You, Henrietta herbal remedies , " Dr. Ian Shillington " <Dr.IanShillington@G...> wrote: > Boy, if I hear St. John's Wort compared to psych drugs one more time, I think I'll scream. Calling St. John's Wort " Herbal Prozac " is probably the greatest insult one could level towards such a great herb. > > Do you know that using SJW in this fashion and for " mental " disorders has just recently become the vogue??? What a crock!!! The only possible effect SJW could have on anyone who was somewhat uptight with a " mental " disorder would be that it tends to purify the system somewhat, and that this action might then relieve internal disorders allowing a person to possibly feel more relaxed. And I say this reservedly. > > Historically, SJW is used as an Astringent, an expectorant, and as a diuretic. It's main use for centuries has been in the area of coughs, colds, and primarily in lung diseases. It is also one helluva diuretic and is highly esteemed in handling urinary problems, and also for helping with sores, wounds, ulcers, and swellings, etc. > > I'd never use SJW on a patient of mine who was complaining of a " mental disorder " . There are far better herbs for this such as Lobelia, Passion Flower, Hops, Valerian, Black & Blue Cohosh, and Skullcap to name the major players in this arena. > > If I didn't know better (and maybe I don't), I'd say this SJW push is a plot by the pharmaceuticals to Black PR herbal remedies. What better way to " prove " herbal medicine doesn't work than by pushing the wrong herb to handle some symptom. Sheesh!!! Let me say this loud and clear, " ST. JOHN'S WORT IS NOT, AND NEVER HAS BEEN, DESIGNED TO HANDLE ANY KIND OF MENTAL PROBLEM " !!!!! If it should ever do so, it is either by accident, or because it is relieving some internal physical pressure that is contributing to the mental problem, and that's it. That's all of it. > > As far as using 5-HTP is concerned, I've never used it personally and so am not speaking from experience here, but my first thought would be to use an orginal Tryptophan source rather than a processed version of the " real " thing. This is IMOHO. Have you ever noticed that right after eating a big turkey dinner, you tend to want to go to sleep??? Welllllllll, that's because turkey is loaded full of L- Tryptophan (the real thing). You can cook a turkey (and make sure it's certified ORGANIC!!!), and have leftovers for a week or two. Great stuff, easy to make, and is actually efficient to have on hand for a fast meal!!! And it will keep you relaxed LOL ) > > I agree that it can be very traumatic to come down off of these insane and destructive psych drugs, but the key to cutting these out " Cold Turkey " is NUTRITION. These drugs not only destroy vitamins in the body, they also interfere with enzyme production and activity. Soooooooooo, cutting 'em out " cold turkey " is NOT recommended unless at the same time you start a nutritional program to offset the somatics turned on by the withdrawal. This can be done using the Total Nutrition Formula and the Dragon Snot Recipe (in the files). A common regimen would be to start the DS on Day 1 while at the same time cutting back to 2/3rds of the SSRI taken. On Day 2 continue the DS and cut back to 1/3rd the SSRI dosage. On day 3, cut out the SSRI altogether. When proper nutrition is taken into consideration, it can be done that fast. > > As a word of caution: Remember, these drugs also lodge in the fatty tissues of the body, and can, under a detox situation or under some heavy physical activity, cause a person to reexperience the effects of these drugs, even when having lain dormant over a period of years. > > I'd recommend anyone who is coming off of any of these psych drugs (or street drugs for that matter), that they do a thorough and complete detox of the entire body while cutting out the drugs cold turkey. This is the safest way to recover from the negative effects of these horrors. > > Remember, that as Naturopaths, we want to handle the " source " or " cause " of the problem. Substituting SJW (or any herb) for Paxil without making any of the other necessary lifestyle changes is just substituting one bandaid for another, and this is NOT what natural healing is all about. Ohhhhhhh, bandaids have their uses, and no doubt about that, but why go on suffering when you can go for the gusto and shoot for a permanent " CURE " . Depression and anxiety are only symptoms. It is the end result of a previous " Cause " , and that " Cause " is almost always an imbalance in the nutritional or biochemical (herbs, amino acids, enzymes, etc.) activity happening in the body. Yes, there can be true " mental " reasons such as stress, and mental aberrations as a result of unpleasant experiences " causing " the conditions, but these can be handled too, without the use of drugs. > > Sara, if you are winning using SJW and 5-HTP, then by all means keep using them, but don't stop there with the symptomatic relief you are getting from these. Why walk when you can learn to fly??? Look for the " Cause " , and if you can't find it on your own, give me a call and I'll help. Using the above 2 regimens is about 1/100th of what you can do and is very limited in scope. > > Trust me on this one, there are whole new vistas you can open up for yourself. > > Love, > > Doc > > Ian " Doc " Shillington N.D. > 505-772-5889 > Dr.IanShillington@G... > - > sfatula (aka Sara) <sfatula_2000> > herbal remedies > Wednesday, December 25, 2002 6:34 AM > [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? > > > St. Johnswort works pretty well as a mild SSRI (the same type of > medication as Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, etc.). I remember reading > about a couple of other things that work well as SSRI's, one of them > being the 5-htp. With SSRI's, you should never quit taking them > cold turkey. A few months ago, I was on 100mg of Zoloft twice a > day, so when I declared my independence from pharmaceuticals I knew > it would be one of the last I could quit taking entirely. I finally > got taken off of it at the beginning of this month (after being > gradually stepped down and at the same time stepping up my use of > St. Johnswort and 5-htp to compensate). > > Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Henrietta, I too have taken anti anxiety meds, despite my heated resistance to them. I was given a choice - go to a mental hospital or take this addictive body shattering drug so we can control what we did to you. You see, my nervous system imbalance was caused my a "mistake" in an ER 10 years ago that fried my nervous system. I applaud your efforts to get off these drugs. But there are herbs, nutrition and lifestyle changes that DO lighten that load. You have been doing it already yourself, by changing your stress levels and resisting the meds to your utmost ability. I am almost completely off the ativan. You must keep trying for you though, or you will never be free. Doc Shillington is the most loving and caring healer I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I really don't think he meant to offend you here my dear. I think you should make that free call to him and find out just how good he really is, and more importantly how he can help you help yourself right out of that Paxil-built cage you are in. From someone who has been and IS in your shoes, please keep with us here and give it a go! (((HUGS))) Janet - hdefago <hdefago herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 4:36 AM [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Dear Doc,Your father was right. Until you have had severe panic disorder and nothing natural works, do not throw words of ignorance out. I tried everything herbal , I went off my meds and nothing worked.NOW I have to agree with you on Dr.s they like to give out Drugs and keep you on them but believe me, we all are differant and sometimes nature just doesn't have the answer.Sometimes things like changing your thinking, your stress level and your focus in life come first.Unfortuanately I have been on many differant antidepressants for almost 13 years because of severe panic disorder. It's not a pretty illness and there are no herbs to lighten the load. I changed my brain process in thinking, deleted as much stress as possible and am down to 25 mgs of Paxil and am looking forward to the day of not taking any drugs, but am very thankfull they were available to help me when I was so very ill. Walk ten minutes in my shoes and you would not be so bold about why some do have to take the antidepressants, even though we dont want to. So when people ask you for a alternative measure remember they are hurting not trying to look ignorant.Thank You,Henriettaherbal remedies , "Dr. Ian Shillington" <Dr.IanShillington@G...> wrote:> Dear Emre,> > Your post seems to me to be very allopathically oriented and not naturopathic or herbally supportive and therefore comes across as being quite ignorant of what herbs can truly do???> > When you say, "Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician.", I have to ask these questions, "What exactly do you mean by a 'qualified physician'?", and "Are you not aware that it is these 'qualified physicians' who get people on SSRI's in the first place???". In my evaluation, this is like asking an IRS agent to do one's taxes, or like asking a wolf to look after the sheep.> > Furthermore you say, "Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.", and again I have to ask, "Who in hell would want to replace depression drugs with an herbal 'look-a-like' since they are so destructive in the first place?", and "why would anyone want to take depression drugs since they truly have no benefit whatsoever?".> > I don't necessarily mean to come down on you hard here, and my father always told me I had the subtlety and finesse of a bowel movement ;o) however, I need to ask you, "Did you come to this list to learn of alternative, naturopathic methods, or did you come here to flaunt, 'Having been on SSRI for two years and having studied these drugs very extensively at professional level' and promote your own allopathic "professionalism"???> > If you think you have all the answers and yet are promoting allopathy, I kinda wonder why you're here. ???> > Just asking.> > Doc> > Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.> 505-772-5889> Dr.IanShillington@G...> - > emre.gurcan@p... > herbal remedies > Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:41 PM> [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil?> > > Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here.> Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.> > Emre GurcanFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Dear Henrietta, I've answered your comments below in this color and italics. Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - hdefago <hdefago herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 5:36 AM [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Dear Doc,Your father was right. He usually was ;o) Until you have had severe panic disorder and nothing natural works, do not throw words of ignorance out. Even though I personally have never had any of those symptoms, I certainly do not speak from a position of ignorance here. Throughout the years I have personally had over 2,000 psych cases of every varying condition on my lines including suicidal schizoid manic depressives who were so bad off that they considered me a martian or an FBI agent. Sometimes, when one has a condition, one can not see the forest for the trees so to speak. Not having had any of those conditions, I have had the benefit of researching them from an exterior viewpoint. IE. It is awful hard to learn about unconsciousness when one is unconscious. I tried everything herbal , I went off my meds and nothing worked. Wellllllll, I'm sure you tried everything you were aware of, or could find at the time, but I can guarantee you there are Naturopathic programs out there that you've never even dreamed of. I'm not talking about allopathically comparing a pharmaceutical with an herb here. Most pharmaceuticals originally came from herbs anyway, and never make the mistake of thinking herbs are less potent. Anyone with the correct knowledge could take Poppy Plants and make an opium concoction (illegal) that would rival any mixture of morphine made by the pharmaceuticals. I'm certainly not recommending this, but only put it forward to make a point. Had you been working with me directly when you came off your meds, I'm absolutely confident you would have noticed major changes. NOW I have to agree with you on Dr.s they like to give out Drugs and keep you on them but believe me, we all are differant and sometimes nature just doesn't have the answer. Yes, you are absolutely correct in that we are all different, but there are some things we all share. IE. We all breathe air, and basically our bodies all work the same way. We all have to eat, breathe, and expell fecal matter. However, it has been my experience in dealing with all physical illness that for those who truly are looking for answers, nature and naturopathic technology come through every time. The key words there are "truly are looking". I once had a patient who had lung cancer and went on the herbal regimen I recommended. She swore she wanted to get better, and would do anything to have it happen. Part of the regimen was to give up all white sugar. This, the patient refused to do, and she ended up dying, refusing to give up her one "sin" as she called it. The herbal program kept her alive 6 months past the due date the medicos had given her, and when she passed on, it was realively pain free and with minimal drugs (morphine only the last 4 days of her life), however the point here is that, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Many people have told me they are willing to "DO ANYTHING", to get better, but when they find out what "Anything" is, they chicken out. Sometimes things like changing your thinking, your stress level and your focus in life come first. Absolutely 100% spot on. And this too is all part of a Naturopathic approach. Throw in 1. Exercise; 2. Nutrition; & 3. Biochemistry (herbs, vitamins, etc. etc.) to what you just said and you have a workable solution to handling just about any disease especially when done together. What you suggested is probably the toughest part. Unfortuanately I have been on many differant antidepressants for almost 13 years because of severe panic disorder. It's not a pretty illness and there are no herbs to lighten the load. I disagree. There are most emphatically, certain herbs that could lighten the load, however with a 13 year history, you are one of those who I'd never recommend to quit "cold turkey". Gradient scale would be the key with you. However, it's not just the herbs that would help to lighten the load. There are also Nutritional, exercise, and other Bio-chemical factors to take into consideration here. Natural healing is very seldom, if ever, a one shot cure procedure. It requires a full program of natural healing that has a holistic viewpoint. In other words, we just don't look at the one symptom of "severe panic disorder", we also have to look at what else physically is happening around the entire body, plus take a look at the person's lifestyle. One must also look at what is happening spiritually, but I ain'ta gonna go there as it is against our list's policies to get into religious dogma. I changed my brain process in thinking, deleted as much stress as possible and am down to 25 mgs of Paxil and am looking forward to the day of not taking any drugs, This is good, and shows that you do have a willingness to beat this ;o) but am very thankfull they were available to help me when I was so very ill. Walk ten minutes in my shoes and you would not be so bold about why some do have to take the antidepressants, Honey, I may not have walked in your shoes, however as I said above, I have certainly and unequivocably followed and examined your footsteps, and for much longer then ten minutes Your problems and the problems of others, are my life's work. even though we dont want to. This one I don't buy. There is always a choice. Always! Sometimes it is just a matter of looking long enough to find the right solution. We may not always wish to be in the traps and the circumstances we find ourselves in, however these were always preceded by our own choice of entrance. Always! So when people ask you for a alternative measure remember they are hurting not trying to look ignorant. I don't think anyone tries to "look ignorant", and as a matter of fact I think many try to look "knowledgable" when in fact they are very ignorant. No one that I know of likes to be "wrong", however a person who will never admit, if only to himself, that he has made a mistake, has a tough time learning anything. Gawd only knows the number of times I've been wrong and boy there's been some doozies. But a major difference between myself and many others is that, I have no fear of being wrong. I know my "bed-side manner" sucks big time, but I offer no apologies for that. I think it was Alcoholics Anonymous that coined the phrase, "Tough Love", but regardless of who originally thought of it, it is a concept I firmly believe in. I've never yet helped one single person by having a "Mrs. Pattycake" attitude. I've helped thousands by demanding they meet a high, tough standard. I'd like to leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors, Richard Bach, who penned, "Illusions, the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah". "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours" ;o) Much love, Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Robin, I hope you don't mind me putting in my 2 cents. I was just reading some of my wife's e-mail and noticed your discussion. This information comes from someone who was diagnosed as a manic-depressive bi-polar disorder nos II, wow ,yeah I couldn't believe it at first either, I was told to get a grip, grow up, be a man, and just get over it. Well after numerous psychiatrists and many different medications some that worked and the last one that almost shut my body down. My wife became a certified herbalist while trying to find something that would help and after years of searching we did find something that not only keeps me stabile but doesn't destroy my body in the process. After years of not being able to work I can now keep a job. If you do have a problem there are ways to take care of it and I like you did not get along with groups that had my same problem because they just wanted to blame the meds or someone else blah, blah, blah,. Hope this gives you some hope and things do get better. Keep Hoping, Albert M sherrymartin - Robin herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 6:36 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? I am really hoping that this isn't true and that I can find a natural substitute for my anti-psychotic medication. I was truly hoping to find an answer here. I understand so well what Henrietta is talking about though. I remember myself before medication and I don't remember it being any more difficult than living with the medication. The problems are just different. Without the medicine I lose touch with reality and have a hard time in staying focused. With the medicine I am zonked out and have little to no emotion. It's a terrible thing to try to keep a job when its almost impossible to wake up in the morning. For me, the medicine does not fix you, it merely hides the symptoms of my illness from other people. It does not actually help me since I have only exchanged one set of problems for another. I have an easier time dealing with the symptoms of the illness rather than the effects of the medications. Once you get used to it and know what your body (mind) is up to, it isn't as scary to live through. I think I would rather be obvious as having an illness and living without meds than living with the effects of these meds. If I can't find a natural alternative I will probably be just going without the meds and hoping I can keep it together. Living on these meds is not a life. The more I learn about me and my illness the more I learn that psychiatry is NOT a science and they probably know less than I do about my body and my own mind. Anywho, thats my 2 cents. - Robin - hdefago <hdefago herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 4:36 AM [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Dear Doc,Your father was right. Until you have had severe panic disorder and nothing natural works, do not throw words of ignorance out. I tried everything herbal , I went off my meds and nothing worked.NOW I have to agree with you on Dr.s they like to give out Drugs and keep you on them but believe me, we all are differant and sometimes nature just doesn't have the answer.Sometimes things like changing your thinking, your stress level and your focus in life come first.Unfortuanately I have been on many differant antidepressants for almost 13 years because of severe panic disorder. It's not a pretty illness and there are no herbs to lighten the load. I changed my brain process in thinking, deleted as much stress as possible and am down to 25 mgs of Paxil and am looking forward to the day of not taking any drugs, but am very thankfull they were available to help me when I was so very ill. Walk ten minutes in my shoes and you would not be so bold about why some do have to take the antidepressants, even though we dont want to. So when people ask you for a alternative measure remember they are hurting not trying to look ignorant.Thank You,Henriettaherbal remedies , "Dr. Ian Shillington" <Dr.IanShillington@G...> wrote:> Dear Emre,> > Your post seems to me to be very allopathically oriented and not naturopathic or herbally supportive and therefore comes across as being quite ignorant of what herbs can truly do???> > When you say, "Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician.", I have to ask these questions, "What exactly do you mean by a 'qualified physician'?", and "Are you not aware that it is these 'qualified physicians' who get people on SSRI's in the first place???". In my evaluation, this is like asking an IRS agent to do one's taxes, or like asking a wolf to look after the sheep.> > Furthermore you say, "Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.", and again I have to ask, "Who in hell would want to replace depression drugs with an herbal 'look-a-like' since they are so destructive in the first place?", and "why would anyone want to take depression drugs since they truly have no benefit whatsoever?".> > I don't necessarily mean to come down on you hard here, and my father always told me I had the subtlety and finesse of a bowel movement ;o) however, I need to ask you, "Did you come to this list to learn of alternative, naturopathic methods, or did you come here to flaunt, 'Having been on SSRI for two years and having studied these drugs very extensively at professional level' and promote your own allopathic "professionalism"???> > If you think you have all the answers and yet are promoting allopathy, I kinda wonder why you're here. ???> > Just asking.> > Doc> > Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.> 505-772-5889> Dr.IanShillington@G...> - > emre.gurcan@p... > herbal remedies > Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:41 PM> [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil?> > > Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here.> Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.> > Emre GurcanFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Suzi, I could give you $1,000,000,000 for that reply!!!! I sincerely hope so. I am not as bad off as some people. People who are heroin addicts have a much harder time than I do. I just want *off-the-meds*. I didn't even take aspirin for headaches before this blasted thing came out and bit me. I could hug you for ten lifetimes! I hope you are right! - Robin - Suzanne Nottmeier herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 6:54 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Robin, With your will power and committment and Docs help I'm sure you will get your mind and health back Suzi Robin <lezibeth wrote: Shelby I agree 100% There are times when my brain produces strange thoughts. I have to pause many times a day and ask myself if it is a me thought or an illness thought. It's easier to sort it out and see what is real after you practice for a little bit. The key is to pause and reflect. That is always in your power (well, at least until I am *really* off the wall then I have no power or control over my thoughts but it always passes) I agree that there is a lot more that people can do to help themselves. Thats why I don't belong to any groups regarding my particular illness. I saw that they were not trying to help themselves or trying to find any REAL answers. They only exchanged complaints and compared symptoms. I don't have time for that. I want my brain back and my life back. The brain is only a part of the body. - Robin Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Oh gawd Albert I thought I had done something wrong at first!! LOL!! Thank you for your 2 cents, I will collect as many of those as I am able to until I am rich! *smile* Here's a pic of me sick and not sick, so you can see the difference. I am not that bad off like some are, but I want off this medicine so bad I can taste it. I would rather live with the symptoms than with the meds. I think they are bad for you in the long run. I can't imagine living with them the rest of my life. I am too stubborn to do that! I have said since coming to awareness (I was not aware and 100% GONE for six solid months in 2001) that I will beat this and I fully belive this. I think that is 50% of the "cure" I am seeking. Even if I am not 100% "normal" and I have to live with some things, thats ok and I can handle that. I am not asking for the world, just a little bit of control over me. Thanks for your reply, and I am getting hope! Can you tell me what herbal remedy worked for you? I am not depressive but without medicines I am extremely paranoid, with meds I am only a little bit and only when I don't catch it in time to stop the thought process. I have gained at least that much control over it, but I want to have enough to keep my job. Gawd I could go on forever, I will stop here. Any advice, recipes, concoctions or even fairy tales are greatly appreciated. I will try anything once and if it don't work I'll try something else. - Robin - Sherry Martin herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 9:30 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Robin, I hope you don't mind me putting in my 2 cents. I was just reading some of my wife's e-mail and noticed your discussion. This information comes from someone who was diagnosed as a manic-depressive bi-polar disorder nos II, wow ,yeah I couldn't believe it at first either, I was told to get a grip, grow up, be a man, and just get over it. Well after numerous psychiatrists and many different medications some that worked and the last one that almost shut my body down. My wife became a certified herbalist while trying to find something that would help and after years of searching we did find something that not only keeps me stabile but doesn't destroy my body in the process. After years of not being able to work I can now keep a job. If you do have a problem there are ways to take care of it and I like you did not get along with groups that had my same problem because they just wanted to blame the meds or someone else blah, blah, blah,. Hope this gives you some hope and things do get better. Keep Hoping, Albert M sherrymartin - Robin herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 6:36 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? I am really hoping that this isn't true and that I can find a natural substitute for my anti-psychotic medication. I was truly hoping to find an answer here. I understand so well what Henrietta is talking about though. I remember myself before medication and I don't remember it being any more difficult than living with the medication. The problems are just different. Without the medicine I lose touch with reality and have a hard time in staying focused. With the medicine I am zonked out and have little to no emotion. It's a terrible thing to try to keep a job when its almost impossible to wake up in the morning. For me, the medicine does not fix you, it merely hides the symptoms of my illness from other people. It does not actually help me since I have only exchanged one set of problems for another. I have an easier time dealing with the symptoms of the illness rather than the effects of the medications. Once you get used to it and know what your body (mind) is up to, it isn't as scary to live through. I think I would rather be obvious as having an illness and living without meds than living with the effects of these meds. If I can't find a natural alternative I will probably be just going without the meds and hoping I can keep it together. Living on these meds is not a life. The more I learn about me and my illness the more I learn that psychiatry is NOT a science and they probably know less than I do about my body and my own mind. Anywho, thats my 2 cents. - Robin - hdefago <hdefago herbal remedies Monday, December 30, 2002 4:36 AM [herbal remedies] Re: 5-htp instead of Paxil? Dear Doc,Your father was right. Until you have had severe panic disorder and nothing natural works, do not throw words of ignorance out. I tried everything herbal , I went off my meds and nothing worked.NOW I have to agree with you on Dr.s they like to give out Drugs and keep you on them but believe me, we all are differant and sometimes nature just doesn't have the answer.Sometimes things like changing your thinking, your stress level and your focus in life come first.Unfortuanately I have been on many differant antidepressants for almost 13 years because of severe panic disorder. It's not a pretty illness and there are no herbs to lighten the load. I changed my brain process in thinking, deleted as much stress as possible and am down to 25 mgs of Paxil and am looking forward to the day of not taking any drugs, but am very thankfull they were available to help me when I was so very ill. Walk ten minutes in my shoes and you would not be so bold about why some do have to take the antidepressants, even though we dont want to. So when people ask you for a alternative measure remember they are hurting not trying to look ignorant.Thank You,Henriettaherbal remedies , "Dr. Ian Shillington" <Dr.IanShillington@G...> wrote:> Dear Emre,> > Your post seems to me to be very allopathically oriented and not naturopathic or herbally supportive and therefore comes across as being quite ignorant of what herbs can truly do???> > When you say, "Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician.", I have to ask these questions, "What exactly do you mean by a 'qualified physician'?", and "Are you not aware that it is these 'qualified physicians' who get people on SSRI's in the first place???". In my evaluation, this is like asking an IRS agent to do one's taxes, or like asking a wolf to look after the sheep.> > Furthermore you say, "Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.", and again I have to ask, "Who in hell would want to replace depression drugs with an herbal 'look-a-like' since they are so destructive in the first place?", and "why would anyone want to take depression drugs since they truly have no benefit whatsoever?".> > I don't necessarily mean to come down on you hard here, and my father always told me I had the subtlety and finesse of a bowel movement ;o) however, I need to ask you, "Did you come to this list to learn of alternative, naturopathic methods, or did you come here to flaunt, 'Having been on SSRI for two years and having studied these drugs very extensively at professional level' and promote your own allopathic "professionalism"???> > If you think you have all the answers and yet are promoting allopathy, I kinda wonder why you're here. ???> > Just asking.> > Doc> > Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.> 505-772-5889> Dr.IanShillington@G...> - > emre.gurcan@p... > herbal remedies > Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:41 PM> [herbal remedies] 5-htp instead of Paxil?> > > Having been on SSRI for two years and having studies these drugs very extensively at professional level, just a word of caution here.> Never quit SSRI's without the advise of a qualified physician. It may have severe consequences. Herbal remedies, however potent they may be, are no replacements for depression drugs.> > Emre GurcanFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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