Finding a Naturopathic Physician

[Guest guest]

Hi Jana,

If you're looking for a Naturopathic physician you have to be aware that

in the states where Naturopaths are not licensed, anyone can call

themselves a Naturopathic doctor. Tennessee is an unlicensed state and

you will find many more mail order " naturopaths " than real

Naturopathic physicians.

Unfortunately there are people that purchase their " degree "

through the mail from " schools " like Clayton. These people have

no more training than anyone on this group or the average health food

store employee.

Real Naturopathic physicians have graduated from a four year post

graduate medical school. They must meet the same pre-medical educational

requirements that conventionally trained doctors must before attending

medical school - essentially a bachelors degree with specific course

requirements like a year of organic chemistry, physics, biology

etc.

In Naturopathic medical school students are taught by professors that

have taught at conventional medical schools. The first two years are

devoted to basic and clinical sciences such as anatomy, pathology,

biochemistry etc. The curriculum in terms of the basic and clinical

sciences is very similar to that of convention medical schools.

As a student, during my first semester at Bastyr University I was

required to take 32 credits of courses. The course work was arduous and

at least twice the load of what I experienced as a full time

undergraduate student. Human and gross anatomy alone required huge

amounts of time studying and working in the cadaver lab. We're talking

full time spent in classes and then another 40 hours/week

studying.

Of course, the difference in the training from conventional medical

schools is with respect to philosophy and therapies. We are trained

thoroughly in therapeutic diets, clinical nutrition, botanical medicine,

homeopathy, physical medicine (spinal manipulation, hydrotherapies, etc),

and counseling. In addition we get a significant amount of training in

pharmacology - we need to understand the medications so many people are

taking. In the last 2 years of medical school students enter the clinic

working with patients under the supervision of licensed physicians.

 

Graduates must pass state medical board exams before practicing, even if

they move to unlicensed states. In Arizona where I'm licensed,

Naturopaths are recognized as primary care physicians and we can

prescribe virtually all pharmaceutical medications. We also must get

advanced pharmacy training if we choose to exercise these prescriptive

rights. There is a time and place for medications. Sometimes it just

calling in a lower dose medication so you can wean a patient off without

having to ask an MD to help you.

Most docs are $120,000 or more in debt when they graduate. On the other

hand you have the mail order ND's whose only requirement is to send a

check for a couple thousand and perhaps read some lay health

books.

But here's the most amazing part of this all. The reason Naturopathic

physicians are licensed in only 14 states is mostly because legislation

is always very fiercely opposed. But not by the American Medical

Association. It's the fake mail order naturopaths that fight legislation.

Fake naturopaths can't call themselves naturopathic doctors in licensed

states. That would be like your garbage man deciding to call himself an

MD and start seeing patients. They fight legislation so they can continue

to perpetrate this fraud.

There are a lot more mail order " naturopaths " then legitimately

trained Naturopathic doctors. They have a lot more money than us. They

retain the highest paid government lobbyists and have been very effective

at preventing qualified physicians trained in the natural healing arts

from being licensed in the majority of states. As such they are

preventing the finest health care available from reaching the majority of

people.

It's hard to imagine that these supposed health advocates would do more

to harm and halt the progress of alternative medicine in this country

than the AMA and Quackbusters combined. But think about the ethics of

people that would purchase a " diploma " through the mail and

then without any clinical training set up shop, see patients and call

themselves doctors.

If you're interested in finding a legitimate Naturopathic physician that

has graduated from a 4 year Naturopathic medical school you can go to

 

www.naturopathic.org or try google the state association where you

live.

~Michael Uzick, ND

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

 

www.DoctorUzick.com

-------------------------------

[Guest guest]

You make a very good case for licensed Naturopaths and I have to agree

that there are a lot of scammers with mail order degrees - like Hulda

Clark for example, or no credentials at all and those kind of people

enable mainstream medicine to paint all alternative practitioners and

advocates with the same broad brush they supply buckets of paint for.

 

But this is a sticky widget r me and the other side of the coin is

that there are a lot of very knowledgeable natural health people who

do not have licensing because their states resist licensing - or else

they resist licensing because it would limit their choices in

alternative therapies.

 

I am not so sure that this has to do with the lobbying of unlicensed

naturopaths - they strike me as a group with very little organization.

Certainly nothing like the AMA who has a villainous record of

suppression of homeopathic and alternative healing and who keeps a

tight rein on what they allow their members to do. Few, if any, on

the planet have the lobby that Big Pharma has - and you can bet your

life quite literally that they do not want any licensed healers who

are not approved to dispense and prescribe their medications.

 

Given the track record of the AMA in suppressing homeopathic and

natural healing and the way the AMA makes their members tow the line

on what they can and cannot do insofar as treatments, I have to wonder

just how much they allow their naturopathic members to think outside

the box?

 

Personally, I have always thought that a true naturopath was someone

who believed that diet, exercise, lifestyle and nature are the only

way to heal sickness and illness and who resists all prescribed

medications. Perhaps doctor of integrative would be a better term for

a naturopath who also prescribes and is under the auspices of the AMA.

 

I personally have not been to any kind of doctor for decades now.

Unless it was for a broken bone or physical trauma I would NOT go to a

mainstream doctor. Now, if I could not heal myself, I would not

hesitate, to seek the advice of a naturopath/integrative medicine type

who COULD dispense drugs. However, if that doctor tried to prescribe

drugs or only offered a narrow range of accepted alternatives I was

unhappy with, I would not hesitate to seek out another

naturopath/natural healer who thought more outside the box.

 

No doubt, though, I would have to take a long look though, at anyone

with only a " mail order " or as some call it a " matchbox " diploma who

had no hands on training under quality natural healers. I would want

someone who was short on hype and long on performance with a good

track record, and training.

 

Don't get me wrong - I wish there were a way to qualify all natural

healers, so long as freedom of thought and new ideas were not

suppressed. Given the vested interests of those with trillions of

dollars at stake, I do not see how we can do that in a way that is

outside the control and influence of those whose only market place is

out bodies and who profit only so long as there is continued sickness

and limited healing.

 

Thanks for your knowledge and perspective on the matter, and the well

thought out post.

 

 

oleander soup , " Michael Uzick, N.M.D. "

<druzick wrote:

>

> Hi Jana,

>

> If you're looking for a Naturopathic physician you have to be aware

> that in the states where Naturopaths are not licensed, anyone can

> call themselves a Naturopathic doctor.

[Guest guest]

At 09:13 PM 6/7/2007, you wrote:

You make a very good case for

licensed Naturopaths and I have to agree

that there are a lot of scammers with mail order degrees - like

Hulda

Clark for example, or no credentials at all and those kind of people

enable mainstream medicine to paint all alternative practitioners

and

advocates with the same broad brush they supply buckets of paint

for.

But this is a sticky widget r me and the other side of the coin is

that there are a lot of very knowledgeable natural health people who

do not have licensing because their states resist licensing - or

else

they resist licensing because it would limit their choices in

alternative therapies.

Knowledgeable people and doctors of medicine are two different things. I

take it that you consider yourself someone knowledgeable in the area of

health, in particular with regard to " natural " therapies and

health. I assume that you might be interested in sharing your knowledge

with people afflicted with various health conditions. Perhaps this is a

passion of yours. While it might be more effective for you to realize

your passion by obtaining a phoney diploma, that would be a very

questionable ethical and legal act.

 

I am not so sure

that this has to do with the lobbying of unlicensed

naturopaths - they strike me as a group with very little

organization.

Certainly nothing like the AMA who has a villainous record of

suppression of homeopathic and alternative healing and who keeps a

tight rein on what they allow their members to do. Few, if any, on

the planet have the lobby that Big Pharma has - and you can bet your

life quite literally that they do not want any licensed healers who

are not approved to dispense and prescribe their

medications.

I'm not speaking of rumors or conspiracy theories. The

organizations representing diploma mill " naturopaths " ,

" doctors of nutrition " , PhD's etc. in fact lobby against the

licensing of formally trained Naturopathic doctors.

They actually employ the services of the top lobbyists in the country and

have been very successful. If it wasn't for these efforts alone,

competently trained doctors of Naturopathy would be licensed in the

majority of states in the USA rather than the minority. I'm not saying

big pharma and the AMA are the friends of Naturopaths and alternative

medicine. But when it comes down to the effort put forth to lobby,

protest and ship bus loads of people to state assemblies to fight against

licensing, it is the fake ND's that have almost exclusively done so.

 

 

Given the track

record of the AMA in suppressing homeopathic and

natural healing and the way the AMA makes their members tow the line

on what they can and cannot do insofar as treatments, I have to

wonder

just how much they allow their naturopathic members to think outside

the box?

There are no naturopathic members of the AMA. If you're referring to

complementary MD's, certainly things have not been easy for them. Many

many more MD's have been imprisoned, had their licenses revoked and have

been vilified than Naturopaths. We are too small for them to notice. Also

times have changed dramatically since the 70s, when even the idea of

eating whole grain bread was ridiculed by the medical

establishment.

 

Personally, I have

always thought that a true naturopath was someone

who believed that diet, exercise, lifestyle and nature are the only

way to heal sickness and illness and who resists all prescribed

medications. Perhaps doctor of integrative would be a better term

for

a naturopath who also prescribes and is under the auspices of the

AMA.

Well, lots of people believe these things, but that doesn't make them

Naturopathic doctors. You've essentially described some of the principals

of Naturopathic medicine. However, I would say while it would be nice if

these were the ONLY ways to heal sickness and illness, it's simply not

true. Indeed there is a place for both natural and drug medicine. The

philosophy of a true Naturopathic physician is to utilize the safest and

most effective therapies without judgement of their origin or class.

Sometimes drug treatments are safer and more effective than natural

treatments.

I've treated a lot of post menopausal women. Many woman go through the

change with few symptoms. However, women that have severe symptoms get

little relief from natural treatments. I can assure you I've tried

unsuccessfully many times. You might not appreciate what this is like for

a women, without experiencing it first hand or having a partner or close

friend that has gone through it. They suffer greatly.

When symptoms are severe, it's not just the hot flashes or insomnia that

can be a burden, but these women often feel as though they are losing

their minds. They almost always break down crying during the visit. It

can be extremely debilitating. I don't give a damn about philosophies,

especially if they don't work. When you're faced with a desperate patient

and all the soy isoflavones and black cohash etc. etc. etc. etc.... she

can shove down her throat don't make a damn difference, you have to

figure out what will. Bio-identical hormone replacement therapy is

nothing short of a god send for these women. These are drugs, but they

are safer forms and thus my preference. Still there are some that refuse

to use them because they think drugs and hormones are evil and they make

their patients swallow a dozen pills, stand on their heads and swish oil

in their mouths. But they get little to no relief. That's a religious

belief, not a medical philosophy.

There is an historic precedence for the title of Naturopathic doctor.

These were trained physicians like Benedict Lust. There were dozens

Naturopathic medical schools in this country that trained real doctors.

Today Naturopaths are trained as integrative physicians. We are formally

trained in this fashion. MD's try to learn this stuff on their own after

medical school. In Tucson we have Dr. Andrew Weil's Integrative medicine

fellows. They mostly learn body mind medicine. They typically don't have

a clue about how to treat patients with natural therapies. They invite

the Naturopaths to come and teach them. I've lectured to the fellows on

two occasions. My colleague - a Naturopath - attended their grand rounds

and taught them true integrative medicine for years without any

compensation. These are great people and their hearts are in the right

place, but they severely lack training. I lectured on the benefits of

injectable vitamin B12 in the treatment of people with HIV/AIDS. There's

so much published research and clinical experience to share for this one

treatment which make such a huge difference. These doctors knew nothing

about it. They were taught in medical school that vitamin B12 injections

were quackery for anything but cases of pernicious anemia. They couldn't

believe the research I showed them, the cases I reported. They were

excited out of their minds. This stuff is old hat to Naturopaths. You

lean it in school and use it in clinic. It's basic stuff.

I personally have not been to any kind of doctor for decades

now.

Unless it was for a broken bone

or physical trauma I would NOT go to a

mainstream doctor. Now, if I could not heal myself, I would not

hesitate, to seek the advice of a naturopath/integrative medicine

type

who COULD dispense drugs. However, if that doctor tried to prescribe

drugs or only offered a narrow range of accepted alternatives I was

unhappy with, I would not hesitate to seek out another

naturopath/natural healer who thought more outside the box.

No doubt, though, I would have to take a long look though, at anyone

with only a " mail order " or as some call it a

" matchbox " diploma who

had no hands on training under quality natural healers. I would want

someone who was short on hype and long on performance with a good

track record, and training.

Don't get me wrong - I wish there were a way to qualify all natural

healers, so long as freedom of thought and new ideas were not

suppressed. Given the vested interests of those with trillions of

dollars at stake, I do not see how we can do that in a way that is

outside the control and influence of those whose only market place

is

out bodies and who profit only so long as there is continued

sickness

and limited healing.

It's happening in 14 states, the District of Colombia, Puerto Rico and

the Virgin Islands. If it weren't for the fake ND's we would be licensed

in all the states. I'm happy to blame the AMA and FDA when they are

responsible. This is coming from very greedy selfish people who happen to

strongly believe in alternative medicine, but would like to fancy

themselves doctors without achieving this distinction.

~M

 

 

 

Thanks for your knowledge and

perspective on the matter, and the well

thought out post.

Tony

--- In

 

oleander soup , " Michael Uzick, N.M.D. "

<druzick wrote:

>

> Hi Jana,

>

> If you're looking for a Naturopathic physician you have to be aware

 

> that in the states where Naturopaths are not licensed, anyone can

 

> call themselves a Naturopathic doctor.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

 

www.DoctorUzick.com

-------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Minnesota was the first state to pass Freedom of Healthcare regulations. Any person is allowed to practice as long as s/he tells the patient where s/he got her/his degree or if the person is self taught without a degree, and the practitioner cannot diagnose or promise a cure.

 

I have a self taught naturopath who has helped me more than any licensed physician. I could practice naturopathy if I wanted to. Or you could call in a half naked shaman to toss chicken feathers about the room. I'm sure that this latter case has killed fewer patients than modern medicine.

 

At one time, the State of MN wanted to license Massage Therapists so they would be separated from the Prostitutes who work in massage parlors. However, the therapists united and told the state to license the prostitutes instead.

 

Licensing is restriction of free trade, and unconstitutional.

 

Many call for licensing to rid the field of quacks, however, as we all know, that system creates a lot of licensed quacks.

 

Yes, nobody is as united as the AMA, and look what they've brought us. The wealthy know something the rest of us don't get: competition is a sin (quotation by David Rockefeller) and the best way to get rid of competition is to form alliances that create powerful monopolies. Medicine is a powerful monopoly.

 

As far as what doctors who use alternatives should call their medicine, there is only one real choice of terms: Rational Medicine: give the patient what the patient needs NOW.

 

David

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

You again make some very good and eloquent points. I don't intend to

enter into a prolonged debate but I will respond to some of your

points with my points of view:

 

> Knowledgeable people and doctors of medicine are two different

> things. I take it that you consider yourself someone knowledgeable in

> the area of health, in particular with regard to " natural " therapies

> and health. I assume that you might be interested in sharing your

> knowledge with people afflicted with various health conditions.

> Perhaps this is a passion of yours. While it might be more effective

> for you to realize your passion by obtaining a phoney diploma, that

> would be a very questionable ethical and legal act.

 

I agree, although I can see how some might wish to do so purely out of

the desire to give more credence to what they have to say. Yes, I am

" somewhat knowledgeable " in regards to natural therapies and health,

having likely spent more hours researching and studying them privately

that many who have accredited degrees. In medicine, a formal education

normally handicaps one's knowledge of natural health.

 

Having said that, I harken back to the term " somewhat knowledgeable "

as being very apropos for my overall knowledge of natural health,

except possibly for oleander - and even there, I am still learning.

 

> I'm not speaking of rumors or conspiracy theories. The organizations

> representing diploma mill " naturopaths " , " doctors of nutrition " ,

> PhD's etc. in fact lobby against the licensing of formally trained

> Naturopathic doctors.

 

Please provide me with evidence of this! I just cannot see the

combined forces of every diploma mill in the known universe even

approaching the power and lobbying influence of a single major

pharmaceutical company, let alone the entire trillion dollar plus goliath!

>

> They actually employ the services of the top lobbyists in the country

> and have been very successful. If it wasn't for these efforts alone,

> competently trained doctors of Naturopathy would be licensed in the

> majority of states in the USA rather than the minority. I'm not

> saying big pharma and the AMA are the friends of Naturopaths and

> alternative medicine. But when it comes down to the effort put forth

> to lobby, protest and ship bus loads of people to state assemblies to

> fight against licensing, it is the fake ND's that have almost

> exclusively done so.

 

That is a fascinating assertion. I have heard nothing of such a

thing. I would think that such an ability to hire top lobbyists in

the country and send busloads of people would be vigorously employed

against such things as the North American Trilateral agreement,

S-1082, the FDA guidelines issue, etc., but I have seen nor heard

nothing of the sort. If I am wrong, then I want to know about it so I

can admit my ignorance and go forward better informed - as soon as I

digest my plate of crow!

 

> There are no naturopathic members of the AMA. If you're referring to

> complementary MD's, certainly things have not been easy for them.

> Many many more MD's have been imprisoned, had their licenses revoked

> and have been vilified than Naturopaths. We are too small for them to

> notice. Also times have changed dramatically since the 70s, when even

> the idea of eating whole grain bread was ridiculed by the medical

> establishment.

 

About the only thing I see that has changed since the 70's is where

the AMA has given in when the overwhelming weight of evidence, such as

taking daily multivitamins, has made them look ridiculous to continue

their opposition, or else where industry and mainstream medicine have

gained a foothold in an area that was previously a threat to their

profits.

 

> Sometimes drug treatments

> are safer and more effective than natural treatments.

> I've treated a lot of post menopausal women. Many woman go through

> the change with few symptoms. However, women that have severe

> symptoms get little relief from natural treatments. I can assure you

> I've tried unsuccessfully many times. You might not appreciate what

> this is like for a women, without experiencing it first hand or

> having a partner or close friend that has gone through it. They

suffer greatly.

>

This is an area where I have to fall back on my " somewhat

knowledgeable " description and bow to your superior knowledge and

experience. It appears that " natural " bioidentical hormones are

outside mainstream medicine outside mainstream medicine and considered

by some to be more in the natural arena than the FDA approved drugs

are. Maybe that is why natural bioidentical hormones are under attach

by mainstream medicine just like natural supplements are.

 

> There is an historic precedence for the title of Naturopathic

doctor. > These were trained physicians like Benedict Lust. There were

dozens Naturopathic medical schools in this country that trained real

> doctors.

 

That was before politics and corruption forced the monopoly of

mainstream medicine on us - shutting down rival schools of naturopathy

and homeopathy and tying us into the clutches of those who doctored by

medicine instead of by healing.

 

I lectured on the benefits of injectable

> vitamin B12 in the treatment of people with HIV/AIDS. There's so much

> published research and clinical experience to share for this one

> treatment which make such a huge difference. These doctors knew

> nothing about it. They were taught in medical school that vitamin B12

> injections were quackery for anything but cases of pernicious anemia.

> They couldn't believe the research I showed them, the cases I

> reported. They were excited out of their minds. This stuff is old hat

> to Naturopaths. You lean it in school and use it in clinic. It's

basic stuff.

 

Good stuff. Too bad someone is not teaching them about the use of

oleander to treat HIV. The OPC product has treated over 350 patients

during the past 3 years and ALL are alive and well, with HIV symptoms

either reversed or stabilized.

 

In the instance of oleander use in treating cancer and other

conditions such as hep-c, as it happens there are doctors in Mexico

who come to Texas to be trained by a lay person not far from me in the

uses and preparation of oleander extract. This person has no

credentials, not even a paper diploma. Just a decades long record of

saving lives and relieving suffering.

 

And therein lies part of the rub. Natural healing has it's share of

quacks, but it also has a pretty impressive honor role of

" unqualified " people who have made real contributions to healing and

have saved many, many lives. Where do people like that fit into the

paradigm of licensing?

 

> It's happening in 14 states, the District of Colombia, Puerto Rico

> and the Virgin Islands. If it weren't for the fake ND's we would be

> licensed in all the states. I'm happy to blame the AMA and FDA when

> they are responsible. This is coming from very greedy selfish people

> who happen to strongly believe in alternative medicine, but would

> like to fancy themselves doctors without achieving this distinction.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree if you say that it is solely

a powerful organization of fake ND's that prevents the double-edged

sword of licensing in all 50 states, at least until I am shown some

compelling evidence to the contrary. And I am not saying I could not

be wrong - just that I would be shocked to be that ignorant of such an

organized and powerful effort.

 

It appears to me that some individuals and institutions in the filed

of naturopathy want to distance themselves from others with the issue

of accreditation of Naturopathic Doctors and the elevation of ND's

among the public, academia and the law to being the professional

equals of their mainstream counterparts.

 

It usually takes at least 11 years to become a doctor: 4 years of

college, 4 years of medical school, and 3 years working in a hospital.

Would it not follow that it should take approximately the same period

of time to become a qualified Naturopathic Physician if they are to be

considered equals?

 

I understand that " accredited " naturopathic colleges require no more

than 4 years to earn their " doctors " degrees. Does that not open them

up to the same criticism, at least to a degree, that some give to

naturopaths who obtained their credentials via correspondence school

study?

 

In closing, I would just like to say that there are a great many of us

who are advocates of natural healing and, at a time when we are under

attack, we would best be advised to seek unity. No doubt, we, need to

be able to find a way to weed out the quacks and charlatans but we

should do it without creating a caste system where those who are

genuinely interested in helping and healing do not have part of the

group, such as accredited naturopathic doctors, looking down their

noses and pointing fingers at another par, say non accredited

naturopaths, who in turn look down their noses at still another part,

say " somewhat knowledgeable " self taught people like myself.

 

In that scenario, all the noses are pointed down at me!

 

:-)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/8/2007 11:26:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, murielblackley2 writes:

Anyone with a modicum of common sense and the time and inclination to learn can learn to help themselves safely to some degree at least with natural remedies, that's the whole point of the pharmaceutical company backlash.

 

Here here. It's exactly how I saved my life and why I do what I do now.

 

DavidSee what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/8/2007 1:38:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, goebelchx writes:

David, I may not agree w/ you on some political-religious stances, but Icompletey am with you in health and probably most philosophy. If I werestuck on a island w/ just 100 people, I would choose you for one ofthem, because you a avid in dispensing anything good you've everlearned.Keep fighting the good fight for the sake of everyone's health andhealthy state of awareness.Dr. Goebel

 

Thanx, Doc.See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Missed it first time around - I'm only going to respond to one part

of this ...

 

" > Sometimes drug treatments

> are safer and more effective than natural treatments.

> I've treated a lot of post menopausal women. Many woman go through

> the change with few symptoms. However, women that have severe

> symptoms get little relief from natural treatments. I can assure

you

> I've tried unsuccessfully many times. You might not appreciate what

> this is like for a women, without experiencing it first hand or

> having a partner or close friend that has gone through it. They

suffer greatly. "

 

Well, sorry to upset you, but I for one have not gone near a doctor

to treat my menopausal symptoms, I have done a lot of research and

followed my gut on what remedies are best suited to ME and guess

what - yes, I've found great relief, all on my very own!!!!! There

are many other women out there just like me who don't go to doctors

as we are not impressed with the drugs they expect us to swallow.

 

Anyone with a modicum of common sense and the time and inclination to

learn can learn to help themselves safely to some degree at least

with natural remedies, that's the whole point of the pharmaceutical

company backlash. I stopped making money for them years ago when I

realised they were killing my dog. Manged to kep her alive three

years longer than my vet said she would live. Later I realised they

were killing me too and weaned myself off the drugs my doctor had had

me on for years. Haven't quite got all the 'side effects' sorted

yet, but getting there.....

 

I'm delighted to find sites such as this where people can share their

knowledge, and people like Tony are happy to pass on their experience

which is greater than mine.

 

 

oleander soup , " Tony " wrote:

>

> You again make some very good and eloquent points. I don't intend to

> enter into a prolonged debate but I will respond to some of your

> points with my points of view:

>

> > Knowledgeable people and doctors of medicine are two different

> > things. I take it that you consider yourself someone

knowledgeable in

> > the area of health, in particular with regard to " natural "

therapies

> > and health. I assume that you might be interested in sharing your

> > knowledge with people afflicted with various health conditions.

> > Perhaps this is a passion of yours. While it might be more

effective

> > for you to realize your passion by obtaining a phoney diploma,

that

> > would be a very questionable ethical and legal act.

>

> I agree, although I can see how some might wish to do so purely out

of

> the desire to give more credence to what they have to say. Yes, I

am

> " somewhat knowledgeable " in regards to natural therapies and health,

> having likely spent more hours researching and studying them

privately

> that many who have accredited degrees. In medicine, a formal

education

> normally handicaps one's knowledge of natural health.

>

> Having said that, I harken back to the term " somewhat knowledgeable "

> as being very apropos for my overall knowledge of natural health,

> except possibly for oleander - and even there, I am still learning.

>

> > I'm not speaking of rumors or conspiracy theories. The

organizations

> > representing diploma mill " naturopaths " , " doctors of nutrition " ,

> > PhD's etc. in fact lobby against the licensing of formally

trained

> > Naturopathic doctors.

>

> Please provide me with evidence of this! I just cannot see the

> combined forces of every diploma mill in the known universe even

> approaching the power and lobbying influence of a single major

> pharmaceutical company, let alone the entire trillion dollar plus

goliath!

> >

> > They actually employ the services of the top lobbyists in the

country

> > and have been very successful. If it wasn't for these efforts

alone,

> > competently trained doctors of Naturopathy would be licensed in

the

> > majority of states in the USA rather than the minority. I'm not

> > saying big pharma and the AMA are the friends of Naturopaths and

> > alternative medicine. But when it comes down to the effort put

forth

> > to lobby, protest and ship bus loads of people to state

assemblies to

> > fight against licensing, it is the fake ND's that have almost

> > exclusively done so.

>

> That is a fascinating assertion. I have heard nothing of such a

> thing. I would think that such an ability to hire top lobbyists in

> the country and send busloads of people would be vigorously employed

> against such things as the North American Trilateral agreement,

> S-1082, the FDA guidelines issue, etc., but I have seen nor heard

> nothing of the sort. If I am wrong, then I want to know about it

so I

> can admit my ignorance and go forward better informed - as soon as I

> digest my plate of crow!

>

> > There are no naturopathic members of the AMA. If you're referring

to

> > complementary MD's, certainly things have not been easy for them.

> > Many many more MD's have been imprisoned, had their licenses

revoked

> > and have been vilified than Naturopaths. We are too small for

them to

> > notice. Also times have changed dramatically since the 70s, when

even

> > the idea of eating whole grain bread was ridiculed by the medical

> > establishment.

>

> About the only thing I see that has changed since the 70's is where

> the AMA has given in when the overwhelming weight of evidence, such

as

> taking daily multivitamins, has made them look ridiculous to

continue

> their opposition, or else where industry and mainstream medicine

have

> gained a foothold in an area that was previously a threat to their

> profits.

>

> > Sometimes drug treatments

> > are safer and more effective than natural treatments.

> > I've treated a lot of post menopausal women. Many woman go

through

> > the change with few symptoms. However, women that have severe

> > symptoms get little relief from natural treatments. I can assure

you

> > I've tried unsuccessfully many times. You might not appreciate

what

> > this is like for a women, without experiencing it first hand or

> > having a partner or close friend that has gone through it. They

> suffer greatly.

> >

> This is an area where I have to fall back on my " somewhat

> knowledgeable " description and bow to your superior knowledge and

> experience. It appears that " natural " bioidentical hormones are

> outside mainstream medicine outside mainstream medicine and

considered

> by some to be more in the natural arena than the FDA approved drugs

> are. Maybe that is why natural bioidentical hormones are under

attach

> by mainstream medicine just like natural supplements are.

>

> > There is an historic precedence for the title of Naturopathic

> doctor. > These were trained physicians like Benedict Lust. There

were

> dozens Naturopathic medical schools in this country that trained

real

> > doctors.

>

> That was before politics and corruption forced the monopoly of

> mainstream medicine on us - shutting down rival schools of

naturopathy

> and homeopathy and tying us into the clutches of those who doctored

by

> medicine instead of by healing.

>

> I lectured on the benefits of injectable

> > vitamin B12 in the treatment of people with HIV/AIDS. There's so

much

> > published research and clinical experience to share for this one

> > treatment which make such a huge difference. These doctors knew

> > nothing about it. They were taught in medical school that vitamin

B12

> > injections were quackery for anything but cases of pernicious

anemia.

> > They couldn't believe the research I showed them, the cases I

> > reported. They were excited out of their minds. This stuff is old

hat

> > to Naturopaths. You lean it in school and use it in clinic. It's

> basic stuff.

>

> Good stuff. Too bad someone is not teaching them about the use of

> oleander to treat HIV. The OPC product has treated over 350

patients

> during the past 3 years and ALL are alive and well, with HIV

symptoms

> either reversed or stabilized.

>

> In the instance of oleander use in treating cancer and other

> conditions such as hep-c, as it happens there are doctors in Mexico

> who come to Texas to be trained by a lay person not far from me in

the

> uses and preparation of oleander extract. This person has no

> credentials, not even a paper diploma. Just a decades long record of

> saving lives and relieving suffering.

>

> And therein lies part of the rub. Natural healing has it's share of

> quacks, but it also has a pretty impressive honor role of

> " unqualified " people who have made real contributions to healing and

> have saved many, many lives. Where do people like that fit into the

> paradigm of licensing?

>

> > It's happening in 14 states, the District of Colombia, Puerto

Rico

> > and the Virgin Islands. If it weren't for the fake ND's we would

be

> > licensed in all the states. I'm happy to blame the AMA and FDA

when

> > they are responsible. This is coming from very greedy selfish

people

> > who happen to strongly believe in alternative medicine, but would

> > like to fancy themselves doctors without achieving this

distinction.

>

> I guess we will have to agree to disagree if you say that it is

solely

> a powerful organization of fake ND's that prevents the double-edged

> sword of licensing in all 50 states, at least until I am shown some

> compelling evidence to the contrary. And I am not saying I could

not

> be wrong - just that I would be shocked to be that ignorant of such

an

> organized and powerful effort.

>

> It appears to me that some individuals and institutions in the filed

> of naturopathy want to distance themselves from others with the

issue

> of accreditation of Naturopathic Doctors and the elevation of ND's

> among the public, academia and the law to being the professional

> equals of their mainstream counterparts.

>

> It usually takes at least 11 years to become a doctor: 4 years of

> college, 4 years of medical school, and 3 years working in a

hospital.

> Would it not follow that it should take approximately the same

period

> of time to become a qualified Naturopathic Physician if they are to

be

> considered equals?

>

> I understand that " accredited " naturopathic colleges require no more

> than 4 years to earn their " doctors " degrees. Does that not open

them

> up to the same criticism, at least to a degree, that some give to

> naturopaths who obtained their credentials via correspondence school

> study?

>

> In closing, I would just like to say that there are a great many of

us

> who are advocates of natural healing and, at a time when we are

under

> attack, we would best be advised to seek unity. No doubt, we, need

to

> be able to find a way to weed out the quacks and charlatans but we

> should do it without creating a caste system where those who are

> genuinely interested in helping and healing do not have part of the

> group, such as accredited naturopathic doctors, looking down their

> noses and pointing fingers at another par, say non accredited

> naturopaths, who in turn look down their noses at still another

part,

> say " somewhat knowledgeable " self taught people like myself.

>

> In that scenario, all the noses are pointed down at me!

>

> :-)

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael Uzick, N.M.D.,

 

Here in Texas, there is no licensing law, yet. I have friends who are

very competent who have been practicing 20+ years here. So, in a state

like Texas, anyone wanting a naturopathic doctor must shop around.

Usually the better know ones are pretty easy to find, if you ask at

enough health food stores, and other licensed practitioners. So, in

Texas you can find a good naturopath w/o a license, but I would advise

a patient (that I did not see to make the referral) to not be hasty,

and ask around a lot before deciding upon a choice of doctor. Bastyr

and the main Homeopathic schools are well enough known if one asks

around ans looks on the internet. The doctor you see here should at

least have a few cerificates from such schools.

 

Dr. Goebel

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

David,

I may not agree w/ you on some political-religious stances, but I

completey am with you in health and probably most philosophy. If I were

stuck on a island w/ just 100 people, I would choose you for one of

them, because you a avid in dispensing anything good you've ever

learned.

 

Keep fighting the good fight for the sake of everyone's health and

healthy state of awareness.

 

 

Dr. Goebel

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with

FareChase.

http://farechase./

[Guest guest]

Janna -

 

There is no way that we can tell you exactly who to use unless we have

firsthand knowledge of them. The best d most well intended advice any

of us give without such knowledge might still lead you astray.

 

I think you just have to take the time to get involved a bit with the

natural health community, seek their advice, do some checking, get

some references, and then go to places like curezone to see what other

people do successfully and what has not worked. That will at least

arm you with some ammunition to judge whatever a natural healer

recommends.

 

Also, I would advise to not rush into buying any recommended

treatment, supplement or medicine based on the first visit. See what

they have to say and then check it out on the forums, including this

one (just tell us what they recommended and I wager there will be no

shortage of advice). Curezone is one of the best I have found - and

this one, of course (smile), but we are mostly about oleander and

Curezone has special forums for almost everything. Too many of the

forums I have seen all across the net purport to be about natural and

alternative healing, but seem to either be a front for mainstream

medicine or have planted agents who dominate the forum and discourage

any treatment or medicine outside the mainstream.

 

You can take it to the bank that I won't allow that here! Just as I

will not knowingly allow charlatans or quacks.

 

Ironically, several of the worst quacks I have ever known were

licensed doctors. And so were some wonderful, hardworking and

compassionate people who really cared for their patients. You just

never know - neither mainstream nor alternative healing has a monopoly

on quackery. Certificates and degrees are good indicators, but not

guarantees.

 

 

oleander soup , <cr8iveart wrote:

>

> I have learned more in the last couple of days, than in several

years of trying desperately to feel

> healthy again. It has been a very slow and difficult process.Thanks

for all the posts on Iodine and

> Sodium Chlorite and healthy oils. Thanks for you, I think, ,

for posting the Moreless page link. I

> was getting really worried - I would have these wonderful ph

readings a couple hours after eating, but

> the low readings in the morning. I didn't realize that I was dumping

toxins, after sleeping. It has been a

> frightening experience - being " released " from drs, pronounced

" cured " and realizing that nothing has

> changed in my body to rebuild or recover good health, then, starting

this journey. In memphis I found

> one dr. who professes to be " holistic " and sells these bottles of

very expensive serums - liver extract,

> adrendal extract, etc. - problem is everyone gets the same stuff

(oh I forgot sodium bicarbonate at $6

> a bottle was one of his, too), and the naturopath who perscribe

lithium ornate and almost had me in

> the hospital. We have one woman who comes to Memphis every other

week from Nashville, who

> charges an arm and a leg - nothing on insurance either, but it

supposed to be good. Yes, it works to

> research and study, but there is a lot of conflicting information

and for someone with OCD, I can

> research forever and not act, because I feel overwhelmed. Dr.

Goebbels, I have been to the

> homeopathic web site, but I do not know which schools are legitamite

and which or not. (I don't think

> that anyone in the general public does either, LOL) And, I have

researched a lot, much more than the

> general public. My friends think I should just stop and leave it

with what I am doing now. I know that I

> can feel even better and not have reoccurring cysts. Most people out

there exposed to two people

> such as the ones that treated me would say that anyone who went to

one of them was crazy. Yes, TN

> has no licensing program and it really hurts us. But, to just say

that going to the web site and

> researching the dr. doesn't really help when one doesn't know which

schools are for real and which

> are not. How does one know for sure? Janna

[Guest guest]

oleander soup , " murielblackley2 "

<murielblackley2 wrote:

 

> I'm delighted to find sites such as this where people can share their

> knowledge, and people like Tony are happy to pass on their experience

> which is greater than mine.

 

Thank you Muriel - although I must point out that I am far from being

as experienced or as knowledgeable as some in this forum. I have

learned much, but still have much to learn and continue learning every

day.

 

I am of the opinion that nature probably holds the answer to every

illness and condition, although we may not have yet discovered the

answer in every instance. And some people may reach a point where

they feel the suffering is simply too great to continue what has been

a fruitless search in nature and I can understand them, and their

doctors seeking more immediate relief.

 

It surely must be an anguishing position for a caregiver to be in when

confronted with such a situation and I can also understand when they

make a decision to ease the suffering of their patients through more

conventional means.

 

I personally would advocate searching in nature to the greatest extent

possible and bearable, so long as life itself is not threatened, but

that is easy to say on paper and perhaps much more difficult during

actual treatment.

 

I admire and applaud you for your persistence and determination to

find the answer in nature and would hope it serves as an example for

patients and caretakers alike. Yours is the path I would have taken.

 

As it so happens, I am currently fighting a spider bite that looks

very much like that of a brown recluse. Although I am told that such

bites are rare where I live now, I have been bitten twice before by

brown recluse spiders and know the classic signs well (if not a

recluse, what else can cause such a nasty bite? Black widow?).

 

The first time, I went to a conventional doctor who botched the

procedure and left me crippled for months when he thrust a deadening

needle too far and into my bursal sac. The second time, I handled it

myself and was successful, although it was a scary thing to watch the

progression of the bite until the tide was turned.

 

This time, I am again handling it myself, but only because I am

confident that I know what I am doing. And that is a key to anyone

seeking treatment or treating themselves - you, or your caregiver must

know what you or they are doing.

 

You do not want to be someone's guinea pig - you want to find someone

who knows how to treat your condition if at all possible. Preferably,

knows how to treat it naturally. Being a natural caregiver, licensed

or not, does not mean that person is versed in every possible natural

treatment for every possible condition - that would be impossible. So

I would advise seeking out someone who has successful experience at

treating whatever ails you - and avoid those who would experiment

blindly or turn too quickly to other methods due to their own lack of

training and/or experience.

 

Tony

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/9/2007 9:38:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, donnab2 writes:

As it so happens, I am currently fighting a spider bite that looksvery much like that of a brown recluse. Although I am told that suchbites are rare where I live now, I have been bitten twice before bybrown recluse spiders and know the classic signs well (if not arecluse, what else can cause such a nasty bite? Black widow?).Tony,We have had good luck with people using Myrrh for their recluse bites. Just make a paste of it and apply.Maybe the health food store in Uvalde would have some capsules of Myrrh.We had one lady come in the store one day with an ugly bite on her foot. She is diabetic, also. We gave her some and she used it and it healed right away. She sings her praises about myrrh.Good luck,Donna

 

Ron Salley's Healon PF works on these spider bites....My firstaid kit always has a bottle. It will last at least seven years.

 

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/Newsletters/06_Dec.htm#Miracle_

 

and http://www.mnwp.org/RSalley/index.html

 

In college I had a black widow bite me in three spots....I didn't know it til the next day while riding my bike home from school, three spots, my neck, arm, and thigh began swelling up. The next day, places on my body that have never itched before, itched like crazy: under my fingernails, behind my eyes, seven inches up my rectum. I went to a doctor. He gave me sleeping pills. Said, "Go home, take these, and it will be gone by morning."

 

DavidSee what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

As it so happens, I am currently fighting a spider bite that looks

very much like that of a brown recluse. Although I am told that such

bites are rare where I live now, I have been bitten twice before by

brown recluse spiders and know the classic signs well (if not a

recluse, what else can cause such a nasty bite? Black widow?).

 

Tony,

We have had good luck with people using Myrrh for their recluse bites.

Just make a paste of it and apply.

Maybe the health food store in Uvalde would have some capsules of Myrrh.

We had one lady come in the store one day with an ugly bite on her

foot. She is diabetic, also. We gave her some and she used it and it

healed right away. She sings her praises about myrrh.

Good luck,

Donna

[Guest guest]

Hi Donna,

 

I have an elderly friend who has diabetes. She always wears socks but the last time I visited her she told me that she has a very bad sore on her toe and that she was going to be scheduled for surgery, because it had gangrene? or it will get gangrene? I don't remember which one. Do you mean I could go into a health food store, buy Myrrh and solve her problem? I would probably have to do it for her as she lives alone and does not take care of herself. Her eating habits are horrid and her sugar readings sometimes scare me half to death. She has a nurse that comes in to check on her. Conventional medicine again. And I wonder.... What are they thinking? She does give herself insulin shots. "Ouch!"

 

I have no idea how the sore has progressed, but I have gone to see her enough that I can "boss her around" LOL! Like when cleaning her house and she wants to help, under no uncertain terms I say..... No. Sit down. Sometimes I am stern and she does take it well. In fact, she has the same child like reaction my mom used to have. LOL So.... I believe that during my next visit, which now with this information will be today, I can say.... Take your sock off and then I can medicate the sore.

 

Before I knew about natural alternatives, I would have said, she must go to an assisted living facility. But no. From what I see they medicate them according to doctor's orders and many of the seniors there are very unhappy and there is nothing I can do for them, except pray for them and send healing light. By the way. In this assisted living facility, they have removed all vitamins from the patients and they can only be given what the doctor prescribes. I wonder if this just pertains to this facility or if it is becoming common practice. Is this the way the FDA will get in through the back door?

 

Anyway, I am going to pick up the Myrrh and see if we can save this lady's foot.

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

May

 

The Best Years in Life (under construction).......

/

http://thecorner4women.com

"Empowering Women Throughout the World"

http://dipetanesoutheast.com

 

 

Donna Bullock <donnab2oleander soup Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 7:51:32 AMRe: Re: Finding a Naturopathic Physician

 

As it so happens, I am currently fighting a spider bite that looksvery much like that of a brown recluse. Although I am told that suchbites are rare where I live now, I have been bitten twice before bybrown recluse spiders and know the classic signs well (if not arecluse, what else can cause such a nasty bite? Black widow?).Tony,We have had good luck with people using Myrrh for their recluse bites. Just make a paste of it and apply.Maybe the health food store in Uvalde would have some capsules of Myrrh.We had one lady come in the store one day with an ugly bite on her foot. She is diabetic, also. We gave her some and she used it and it healed right away. She sings her praises about myrrh.Good luck,Donna

[Guest guest]

Myrrh is really good stuff with a long, long history of use. Kind of

like oleander.

 

I have no myrrh, but I do have some ledum palustre (homeopathic

remedy), plenty of the best colloidal silver on the planet, bromelain,

apple cider vinegar and garlic.

 

Bromelain, a naturally occuring compound found in the pineapple plant,

is magical stuff for fast healing and for greatly increasing the

absorption of whatever else you are taking.

 

 

oleander soup , Donna Bullock <donnab2 wrote:

>

>

> As it so happens, I am currently fighting a spider bite that looks

> very much like that of a brown recluse. Although I am told that such

> bites are rare where I live now, I have been bitten twice before by

> brown recluse spiders and know the classic signs well (if not a

> recluse, what else can cause such a nasty bite? Black widow?).

>

> Tony,

> We have had good luck with people using Myrrh for their recluse bites.

> Just make a paste of it and apply.

> Maybe the health food store in Uvalde would have some capsules of Myrrh.

> We had one lady come in the store one day with an ugly bite on her

> foot. She is diabetic, also. We gave her some and she used it and it

> healed right away. She sings her praises about myrrh.

> Good luck,

> Donna

>

[Guest guest]

Chelation therapy can save the limbs of diabetics. It restores normal

blood flow everywhere in the body, notably the extremties.

 

Dr. Goebel

 

 

 

 

______________________________\

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[Guest guest]

oleander soup , May <luellamay129 wrote:

>> May

 

 

> ,

 

The myrrh was for the spider bite......The reason I mentioned she was diabetic

was

because being bitten on her foot she needed to be careful of any bad sores.

I don't know if it would help your friend or not.

 

About the nursing homes keeping the people druged up. I have seen that before. I

do

know they will take your vitamins away. Sooooo you just have to sneak them in.

 

Donna

[Guest guest]

I notice that Healon PF contains Triethanolamine as do several

of his other products. TEA is made

by DOW Chemical and used as an emulsifier and is a chemical. http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred_id=1084

Maybe he has taken this out?

 

Several years ago we had a seemingly influx of people with brown

recluse bites and most of them had been bit on the rear-end. One lady had gone to the hospital where

they lanced the bite and did a very poor job. It was one of the worse bites

that I have seen and I wondered even how she was functioning. The venom had spread throughout her body

and she had cysts come up on her abdomen and under her arms. Topically we used several treatments but

mainly Oxy-SC (diluted) along with colloidal silver and a product called

Oxy-Balm. We also had her do several

liver/gallbladder/digestive tract cleanses and put her

on a very healthy diet. She also

took the Oxy-SC and colloidal silver orally. We also advised her to keep herself

well-hydrated with pure, clean water.

It wasn’t long before she felt much better and the cysts begin to

heal. The venom doesn’t affect

everyone like it did her, but you just never know. I do believe that she probably had a

compromised immune system at the time which did not help her situation.

 

I’m sure there are a lot of natural remedies that will

work effectively. Let us know how

you are doing…

 

Be Well~

Loretta

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Donna!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

May

 

The Best Years in Life (under construction).......

/

http://thecorner4women.com

"Empowering Women Throughout the World"

http://dipetanesoutheast.com

 

 

donnab236 <donnab2oleander soup Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 3:07:58 PM Re: Finding a Naturopathic Physician

 

oleander soup, May <luellamay129@ ...> wrote:>> May> ,The myrrh was for the spider bite......The reason I mentioned she was diabetic was because being bitten on her foot she needed to be careful of any bad sores.I don't know if it would help your friend or not.About the nursing homes keeping the people druged up. I have seen that before. I do know they will take your vitamins away. Sooooo you just have to sneak them in.Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/9/2007 6:26:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drlanphier writes:

I notice that Healon PF contains Triethanolamine as do several of his other products. TEA is made by DOW Chemical and used as an emulsifier and is a chemical. http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred_id=1084 Maybe he has taken this out?

 

I always research anything I can't pronounce, and I never found this info. Thanx....I'll speak w/ Ron and find out why the heck it's in there....Though, I've never found anything that will heal a painful crack in the skin of my heal overnight like his product. And there's nothing on the market that helps diabetic wounds.

 

Sorry for the overlook.....especially since I pointed out the carcinogens in that High End skin line from La Mer......full of carcinogens.

 

DavidSee what's free at AOL.com.