Irritability

[Guest guest]

The foregoing may or may not clear up the differences. I believe one must defer to clinical experience and I would like to know if it is Alon Marcus’ experience that septic patients do have a bow-string pulse without liver involvement and if these patients are irascible as well as vexed. If seems to me that patients that are constipated due to heat, for example, are irascible as well as vexed, and I am still not sure that this has to be due to liver qi. The argument that any blockage of qi affects the liver and thus whenever there is irascibility one must explain it by binding depression of liver qi (pain is a good example) seems overly simplistic and inelegant. Of course,this does not mean it is not true, and clinical experience must be the final judge.

>>>>>>>>Obviously I agree. I have seen patients with what was called bowstring fast pulse in septic patients (not that I think that many Dr in china are sensitive pulse takers) and often their symptoms were physical irritability as well as short temper that were not diagnosed as liver related but as pathogenic factors agitating the heart and stomach. To state that any one symptom is associated with a particular pattern in TCM I think is grossly misunderstanding on Chinese medicine. The beauty of Chinese medicine is it ability to put all clinical presentation in a clinical perspective that is unique to the patient. A symptom or sign only has meaning within a larger picture which gives it meaning. As for the pulse we can not forget that any pain can result in bowstring pulse.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " David Frierman " <davidfrierman@h...>

wrote:

>

 

David,

 

Very nice, very nice. I think the distinction you make hits the nail

on the head. Vexation (fan) is pathognomonic of heat. When

working on Chinese Medical Psychiatry, our research showed

that heat is really the only mechanism of vexation, while irritability

(yi nu) is pathognomonic of liver depression.

 

(Although it is possible to find Chinese authors who seem to attribute

vexation to non-heat mechanisms, I think one needs to be clear that

there are different levels of Chinese medicine even amongst Chinese

themselves. When reading the Chinese literature, one sees a wide range

of knowledge and expertise, just as when reading the English language

literature. In other words, certain authors are more authoritative

than others. If we look at the compound term, vexation and agitation,

vexation is a subjective symptom, while agitation is an objective

sign. Agitation refers to restless movement or fidgeting.

Vexation, on the other hand, specifically refers to a subjective

feeling of heat in the chest which is always associated with some

sort of heat evils.)

 

As for Wiseman's terminology, while we at Blue Poppy accept Wiseman's

terms as our " standard, " we don't necessarily agree with all of them.

In our opinion, irascibility is too strong a word for yi nu. I see a

continuum from irritability to irascibility, and, clinically speaking,

yi nu covers the entire range. Frankly, I actually prefer what the

Chinese itself simply says, i.e., easy anger. That term is clear,

unambiguous, and faithful to the Chinese words. It also does not

quantify the intensity of the anger. It merely states that the person

gets angry easily (and, therefore, one would assume, frequently).

Sometimes I think Nigel is guilty of over-translation.

 

When we at Blue Poppy Press do our books or when I am writing articles

for publication, if I disagree with a Wiseman term (such as

irascibility or string-like pulse), I do either of two things. In a

book, I will typically discuss this discrepancy in a footnote the

first time I introduce a non-standard term. In less formal settings, I

typically present Wiseman's term first and then follow it with

something like " or bowstring pulse " the first time I use the term.

Then I go on to use my term choice after that. This means that A)

everyone knows what Wiseman's standard term is (and, therefore,

ultimately the Chinese characters in question), and B) allows me to

express my own preferences. Thus the reader is able to cross-reference

my terms with Wiseman's, but I am able to have my own opinions. When

talking/teaching or corresponding via e-mail, I sometimes just use my

own preferred term. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I guess I assume that

I have explained myself so many times in so many places in public

and in print, on audio and video, that most people understand my own

term choices. However, realistically, I know this is not true.

 

Although I totally support Nigel's endeavor and generally support the

overwhelming majority of his term choices, I don't think he has

necessarily chosen the best possible English terms in all cases. When

one is coming up with literally thousands of term choices, everyone of

them cannot be equally insightful and felicitous.

 

In any case, I do think David is correct that some of Alon's issues

seem to have to do again with semantic issues.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

While I generally agree that it is mistake to attribute a single

meaning to most signs and symptoms, the fact of the matter is that

there are always exceptions to every rule. There are a very few signs

or symptoms which always do mean only one thing. Take for instance

static spots or static macules on the tongue.

 

Bob

 

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> The foregoing may or may not clear up the differences. I believe one

must defer to clinical experience and I would like to know if it is

Alon Marcus' experience that septic patients do have a bow-string

pulse without liver involvement and if these patients are irascible as

well as vexed. If seems to me that patients that are constipated due

to heat, for example, are irascible as well as vexed, and I am still

not sure that this has to be due to liver qi. The argument that any

blockage of qi affects the liver and thus whenever there is

irascibility one must explain it by binding depression of liver qi

(pain is a good example) seems overly simplistic and inelegant. Of

course,this does not mean it is not true, and clinical experience must

be the final judge.

>

> >>>>>>>>Obviously I agree. I have seen patients with what was called

bowstring fast pulse in septic patients (not that I think that many Dr

in china are sensitive pulse takers) and often their symptoms were

physical irritability as well as short temper that were not diagnosed

as liver related but as pathogenic factors agitating the heart and

stomach. To state that any one symptom is associated with a

particular pattern in TCM I think is grossly misunderstanding on

Chinese medicine. The beauty of Chinese medicine is it ability to put

all clinical presentation in a clinical perspective that is unique to

the patient. A symptom or sign only has meaning within a larger

picture which gives it meaning. As for the pulse we can not forget

that any pain can result in bowstring pulse.

>

> Alon

[Guest guest]

Take for instance static spots or static macules on the tongue.>>>>>>Well the stasis still can be due to coldness, heat, deficiency etc. Therefore as for treatment it must be put in context

Alon

[Guest guest]

That's not the issue. You said that no sign or symptom ever only

indicated a signle disease mechanism/pattern. While most signs and

symptoms have several possible indications, there are a small group of

signs and symptoms which each have only a single indication.

 

At this point, it seems clear to me that you are arguing simply for

the sake of arguing. I'm out'a here.

 

Bob

 

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Take for instance

> static spots or static macules on the tongue.

> >>>>>>Well the stasis still can be due to coldness, heat, deficiency

etc. Therefore as for treatment it must be put in context

> Alon

[Guest guest]

there are a small group of signs and symptoms which each have only a single indication

>>>>no argument here

alon

 

-

pemachophel2001

Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:43 PM

Re: "Irritability"

That's not the issue. You said that no sign or symptom ever only indicated a signle disease mechanism/pattern. While most signs and symptoms have several possible indications, there are a small group of signs and symptoms which each have only a single indication.At this point, it seems clear to me that you are arguing simply for the sake of arguing. I'm out'a here.Bob, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Take for instance > static spots or static macules on the tongue.> >>>>>>Well the stasis still can be due to coldness, heat, deficiency etc. Therefore as for treatment it must be put in context> AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Irritability

Irritability can be caused from any number of things that happen throughout the day or night. Little things just bug you and make you " crabby " . You become edgy, and feel like nothing is going right and then it's like the straw that broke the camels back. Often times, lack of sleep, or getting out of the wrong side of the bed sets the stage for being irritable all day. But don't fear, you have the power to change your own mood. Essential oils can help along the way. Several oils are known to help take the edge off of irritability. Cypress, Coriander

, Litsea Cubeba, , Neroli ,

Ylang Ylang , Melissa, Lavender and

Roman Chamomile . Using any of these oils singly or blending a few together will often lighten the mood and situation. Most of these oils are known as euphoric, or good feeling oils so using them can help uplift your mood and although they won't remove the source of irritation, they may help you look at the situation in a different light! Try a blend of Ylang Ylang , - 15 drops Coriander - 10 drops

Roman Chamomile - 5 drops Blend well and use in the diffuser or mix several drops in 1 ounce of a massage oil and enjoy a massage. This blend can also be added to the bath (use 5-6 drops in the tub).

-- Diana Gonzalez Nothing wastes more energy than worrying - the longer a problem is carried, the heavier it gets. Don't take things too seriously - live a life of serenity, not a life of regrets.

-Unknown