Digest Number 1539

[Guest guest]

Double blind testing and CM

Western trained physicians will not accept CM whether in research form or by scientific proof . The reason being and many will say is that "I was not trained that way" and mainly they don't even understand their own form of western medicine. regards,

Jose Rivera MD

At least we still have Savants in CM

[Guest guest]

Jose,

 

> Double blind testing and CM

> Western trained physicians will not accept CM whether in research

form or by scientific proof . The reason being and many will say is

that " I was not trained that way " and mainly they don't even

understand their own form of western medicine.

> regards,

> Jose Rivera MD

> At least we still have Savants in

 

I know an awful lot of Western trained

physicians, both those who have also

had training in Chinese medicine as

well as those who have not, who " accept "

Chinese medicine...of course we have to

define what we really mean by that word.

 

What I mean is that they have observed its

usefulness, observed the fact that some

patients like and even favor it over

Western medicine, and understand the

economic implications of their observations.

 

I also know many MDs who are drawn,

just like their new age alternative

peers to the depth perception which

such things like Chinese medicine

provide them when looking at their

own training and experience.

 

I always feel uncomfortable whenever

I read or hear generalizations about

such vast numbers of people.

 

I have said for some time that the

battle that we have to wage here

can only be fought...and won...

one mind at a time.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken Rose wrote:

I also know many MDs who are drawn,just like their new age alternativepeers to the depth perception whichsuch things like Chinese medicineprovide them when looking at theirown training and experience.

 

Ken,

 

This is most true for me and my study of physiology, which is a vast science and rapidly growing month by month. Simply doing taichi, practicing in my meditation path and doing my forest running all add dimensions to my observation and studies of physio. Seems like my further studies of CM and taoist nutrition force my eyes along many pathways that I would not have thought to look. Over the past two decades I've looked carefully at what happens to various organ systems during night time sleep. We're actually doing the heavy lifting at night which is the unique time when growth hormone is in the blood, the parasympathetic system is full one, and the liver produces somatomedins (little growth hormones) for all the tissues of the body. I can see what CM calls Kidney function by looking at what embryologically was the same tissue:gonad, adrenal cortex and kidney in the first weeks of life. The gonad tears away from the adrenal, sinks through the kidney and travels south to the pelvis. Meanwhile the steroid hormones of the adrenal cortex have many homologous functions with gonadal steroids. CM also directs us to look at the connection between the thyroid and the kidney. I could go on and on. As a physiologist, I'm happy to have such a guide as Chinese medicine.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

 

To my simplistic view of things, the kind

of correlation of knowledge, experience,

and understanding of the body that you

refer to is a second missing key in the

transmission of Chinese medicine from its

native time and place to the contemporary

Western world. Nigel Wiseman has already

eloquently if not thoroughly described

the first such missing key: language.

 

But it is just one in a set of keys, which

if they were to come into the possession

of Western students and practitioners, could

make life much happier for all concerned.

 

I'm not sure what to call this one that

you've described, but in my assessment it

is of equal importance, certainly, to

language and except that it is to a certain

degree dependent upon successful language

to acquire and use effectively, I would

say this kind of key to understanding would

come first.

 

So that there is no mystery about what

I'm talking about, the set of keys I'm

referring to constitute the table of

contents of Who Can Ride the Dragon?

 

That book was written more than five years

ago, so of course I'd present it somewhat

differently today. But this is not fishing

for an invitation to explain the difference.

 

I might want to do that some day, but

today is not the day.

 

I remain committed to the notion that

a certain grounding in a range of topics

and particularly access to a range of

points of view related to the subject

of Chinese medicine are absolute prerequisites

to the successful study and practice of

the various methodologies contained in

these traditions of medicine. And by and

large, the ones presented in Who Can Ride

the Dragon? define, for me at least, an

irreducible minimum of materials which

provide someone who has never had such

access with a start.

 

As Z'ev has said many times, it's the

starting that is the crucial thing.

Well begun, the journey can continue

a lifetime.

 

I believe that until and unless there

comes into existence a community of

students, practitioners and patients

who share a common grasp of certain ideas

and methodologies such as is described

and suggested by this broad overview

of the subject, the various political,

social, and economic woes which occupy

the attention of folks on this list will

remain incomprehensible and therefore

unresolved.

 

Hence the primacy of the language key.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

My response to Jason today is also my response in part to your comments here. The more ephemeral (or in some ways practical) issue of what is CM's root is embodied in language both from the oral traditions and the written traditions. It is embodied as well in the culture which gave rise to these traditions. CM's exposure to WM should benefit each rather than diminish one in favor of the other. Having said that, paradigms sometimes eat each other (my apologies to Simon in using that word with so little rigor). I would like to see CM flourish in America with its root intact. How else could it flourish?

 

Red Pine translates the Taoteching, Chapter 22 beginning with:

 

Heavy is the root of light

still is the master of busy

(ending with)

too light he loses his base

too busy he loses his command.

 

In commentary Ch'eng Hsuan-Ying says, "Roots are heavy, while flowers and leaves are light. The light wither while the heave survive. "Still" means tranquil, and "busy" means excited. Excitement is subject to birth and death. Tranquility endures. Hence the still rule the busy."

 

I sense the problem that is posed in my comments to Jason today is answered herein. It also correlates to your comments below.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

-

kenrose2008

Sunday, July 27, 2003 4:06 AM

Re: Digest Number 1539

Emmanuel,To my simplistic view of things, the kindof correlation of knowledge, experience,and understanding of the body that yourefer to is a second missing key in thetransmission of Chinese medicine from itsnative time and place to the contemporaryWestern world. Nigel Wiseman has alreadyeloquently if not thoroughly describedthe first such missing key: language.But it is just one in a set of keys, whichif they were to come into the possessionof Western students and practitioners, couldmake life much happier for all concerned.I'm not sure what to call this one thatyou've described, but in my assessment itis of equal importance, certainly, to language and except that it is to a certaindegree dependent upon successful languageto acquire and use effectively, I wouldsay this kind of key to understanding would come first. So that there is no mystery about whatI'm talking about, the set of keys I'mreferring to constitute the table ofcontents of Who Can Ride the Dragon?That book was written more than five yearsago, so of course I'd present it somewhatdifferently today. But this is not fishingfor an invitation to explain the difference.I might want to do that some day, buttoday is not the day.I remain committed to the notion thata certain grounding in a range of topicsand particularly access to a range ofpoints of view related to the subjectof Chinese medicine are absolute prerequisitesto the successful study and practice ofthe various methodologies contained inthese traditions of medicine. And by andlarge, the ones presented in Who Can Ridethe Dragon? define, for me at least, anirreducible minimum of materials whichprovide someone who has never had suchaccess with a start.As Z'ev has said many times, it's thestarting that is the crucial thing.Well begun, the journey can continuea lifetime. I believe that until and unless therecomes into existence a community ofstudents, practitioners and patientswho share a common grasp of certain ideasand methodologies such as is describedand suggested by this broad overviewof the subject, the various political,social, and economic woes which occupythe attention of folks on this list willremain incomprehensible and thereforeunresolved.Hence the primacy of the language key.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

>

> My response to Jason today is also my response in part to your

comments here. The more ephemeral (or in some ways practical) issue

of what is CM's root is embodied in language both from the oral

traditions and the written traditions. It is embodied as well in

the culture which gave rise to these traditions.

 

Your recent reference to Kuhn reminded me

of a statement he made at the end of the

postscript to the second edition of Structure

of Scientific Revolutions in which he talked

about the fact that scientific knowledge

like language is the property of a group of

people or it is nothing at all. To understand

either, Kuhn suggests, we have to know the

peculiar characteristics of the group that

invented them.

 

I think that regardless of the academic debate

about Kuhn's various theories, this statement

remains sound and as true and applicable to

the situation we face with respect to the

transmission of Chinese medicine to the West

today as it has always been.

 

CM's exposure to WM should benefit each rather than diminish one

in favor of the other. Having said that, paradigms sometimes eat

each other (my apologies to Simon in using that word with so little

rigor). I would like to see CM flourish in America with its root

intact. How else could it flourish?

 

Flourishing is implicitly metabolic in character.

The flower eats the decomposing matter in

the soil. What we are discussing is...or should

be...pattern integrity recognition, which, by

the way, was Bucky's term to define the gist

of what the mind/brain is all about.

 

Chinese medicine and Western medicine will

and must and can only eat each other just

as China and the West will continue to

compete for resources. Check out this link

to a document entitled Who Will Feed China

in which the author explores and extrapolates

various trends with respect to consumption of

resources as they pertain to China's

ascendancy on the geopolitical stage.

 

The Huainanzi includes a passage which

pertains, the gist of which is that nothing

wastes your qi like eating too much.

 

All of which is only to suggest, by light

touches albeit, that in the ongoing pattern

of mutual destruction/creation that is

inherent in the kind of cultural interface

that comes into being when we talk about

the confluence of Chinese and Western

medicine, one thing we can do is eat

consciously...and suggest that others

at the table also follow certain rules of

etiquette which seem to have served

so far...just for a couple thousand years

or so...to permit the banquet to go on

and on and on.

 

Hence, again, the primacy of language.

 

Reminds me of a story that illustrates

the efficacy of language in negotiating

these kinds of cross cultural opportunities.

I was in a little restaurant in Chengdu in

1992. I'd just gotten to China and could

speak next to no Chinese. After a plate

of jiaozi, I had to go to the bathroom

and asked the waitress in my best pigeon

Chinese where it was. She went away

at once and came back with a little

plate of vinegar.

 

Made perfect sense.

 

 

 

 

>

> Red Pine translates the Taoteching, Chapter 22 beginning with:

 

Point of order. I believe this is chapter 26, at least

it is in the copy I have to hand. I know there are

various versions of the text in ciruclation,

especially since the discovery of the Ma Wang Dui

materials.

 

Curiously, Chapter 22 also contains a

sentiment which is applicable to the

conflict of paradigms issue:

 

Yield and become whole.

Bend and become straight.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

Indeed, the quote was Chapter 26. My error. Now that I'm reviewing Chapter 22 I'm caught by the commentary of Wu Ch'eng regarding the first verse. Your personal summary and interpretation below at the end is exquisite. Thank you.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

-

kenrose2008

Sunday, July 27, 2003 4:53 PM

Re: Digest Number 1539

Emmanuel,> > My response to Jason today is also my response in part to your comments here. The more ephemeral (or in some ways practical) issue of what is CM's root is embodied in language both from the oral traditions and the written traditions. It is embodied as well in the culture which gave rise to these traditions.Your recent reference to Kuhn reminded meof a statement he made at the end of thepostscript to the second edition of Structureof Scientific Revolutions in which he talkedabout the fact that scientific knowledgelike language is the property of a group ofpeople or it is nothing at all. To understandeither, Kuhn suggests, we have to know thepeculiar characteristics of the group thatinvented them.I think that regardless of the academic debateabout Kuhn's various theories, this statementremains sound and as true and applicable tothe situation we face with respect to thetransmission of Chinese medicine to the Westtoday as it has always been. CM's exposure to WM should benefit each rather than diminish one in favor of the other. Having said that, paradigms sometimes eat each other (my apologies to Simon in using that word with so little rigor). I would like to see CM flourish in America with its root intact. How else could it flourish?Flourishing is implicitly metabolic in character.The flower eats the decomposing matter inthe soil. What we are discussing is...or shouldbe...pattern integrity recognition, which, bythe way, was Bucky's term to define the gist of what the mind/brain is all about.Chinese medicine and Western medicine willand must and can only eat each other justas China and the West will continue tocompete for resources. Check out this linkto a document entitled Who Will Feed China in which the author explores and extrapolates various trends with respect to consumption ofresources as they pertain to China'sascendancy on the geopolitical stage.The Huainanzi includes a passage whichpertains, the gist of which is that nothingwastes your qi like eating too much.All of which is only to suggest, by lighttouches albeit, that in the ongoing patternof mutual destruction/creation that isinherent in the kind of cultural interfacethat comes into being when we talk aboutthe confluence of Chinese and Westernmedicine, one thing we can do is eatconsciously...and suggest that othersat the table also follow certain rules ofetiquette which seem to have servedso far...just for a couple thousand yearsor so...to permit the banquet to go onand on and on.Hence, again, the primacy of language.Reminds me of a story that illustratesthe efficacy of language in negotiatingthese kinds of cross cultural opportunities.I was in a little restaurant in Chengdu in1992. I'd just gotten to China and couldspeak next to no Chinese. After a plateof jiaozi, I had to go to the bathroomand asked the waitress in my best pigeonChinese where it was. She went awayat once and came back with a littleplate of vinegar.Made perfect sense.> > Red Pine translates the Taoteching, Chapter 22 beginning with:Point of order. I believe this is chapter 26, at leastit is in the copy I have to hand. I know there arevarious versions of the text in ciruclation,especially since the discovery of the Ma Wang Duimaterials.Curiously, Chapter 22 also contains asentiment which is applicable to theconflict of paradigms issue:Yield and become whole.Bend and become straight.Ken

[Guest guest]

Ted,

 

Instead of saying your reactions were all in your head, the practioner should

have checked why you

had such an untoward reaction. It maybe well worth your time and health to seek

out another

practioner.

 

Bindi

 

 

 

> There are 25 messages in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Herbal Reaction

> " tedd " <tguenzel

>