[} Journalist Discusses Current Reality in Iraq

[Guest guest]

Eyewitness Interview: " Iraq Is An Absolute Disaster " :

 

Journalist Michael Ware is the Baghdad Bureau Chief

for Time Magazine. He was embedded in Fallujah during

the recent US offensive earlier this month, and has

covered the war in Iraq since February 2003. He joins

us today with his perspective on the situation in

Iraq.

 

Audio Interview:

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7484.htm

 

MICHAEL WARE INTERVIEW ON WNYC HOST LEONARD LOPATE

 

NOVEMBER 24 2004

 

 

 

[RUSH TRANSCRIPT]

 

 

 

LOPATE: I’m Leonard Lopate, this is WNYC 93.9 We’re

on line at WNYC.org. In the news today are reports

that American Forces are continuing military

operations to overcome isolated pockets of resistance

in Fallujah and it’s surrounding areas. Are things

going as well as that suggests? Well, joining me now

with an eye-witness account is embedded journalist

Michael Ware, Baghdad bureau chief for TIME magazine,

he recently returned from Fallujah where he was

tracking Alpha Company’s third platoon. Very pleased

to welcome you to the show. Hi.

 

 

 

WARE: Thank you.

 

 

 

LOPATE: When did you get back from Fallujah?

 

 

 

WARE: I left Iraq on Saturday afternoon and arrived in

New York on Sunday evening.

 

 

 

LOPATE: How long had you been there?

 

 

 

WARE: Well, I’ve been based in Iraq for almost two

years now. So this is a rare respite.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Did you feel that it was okay to leave

Fallujah because things have been brought under

control?

 

 

 

WARE: No, I mean, I don’t think we’re ever going to be

able to confidently say that Fallujah is under

control. I guess it depends on what your measure of

control really is. There will always be insurgents in

Fallujah. Fallujah is the dark heart of the

insurgency. We may be able to dominate the city now

that it’s been retaken, but whether you effectively

control it; whether you stamp out that rising tide of

resistance, I don’t think so.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Is this like Groznyy in Chechnya , where

the Russian forces have pretty much levelled the city

and still face constant resistance?

 

 

 

WARE: Yeah, I mean, there’s things of Groznyy, but

certainly it’s not a direct comparison by any measure.

There has been widespread destruction in Fallujah in

the course of this terrible, terrible battle…

 

 

 

LOPATE: Mosques and homes?

 

 

 

WARE: Oh, absolutely, I mean… For example, the

military unit I was with, I mean, the operation in

Fallujah involved largely Marines, but also some army

elements. I was with one of those elements. The way

they proceeded through the city, given that there was

booby-traps, improvised explosive devices, riddling

the streets everywhere. Entire houses were rigged to

blow. The way they proceeded was what they call

“Reconnaissance by Fire.” If you’re going to go down a

street first you scour it for any potential danger.

How do you do that? You do it with a 25mm cannon on an

armoured Bradley fighting vehicle. Or you do it with

one 20mm tank round. Just blow up everything that

looks vaguely suspicious. Then if someone shoots at

you from a building, or there’s an explosion near a

vehicle, don’t mess with it. Don’t go into the

building looking for the guy… just level the building.

And then go through the rubble afterwards.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, that can’t be pleasing people who

are not in support of the insurgents, but who consider

Fallujah their home…

 

 

 

WARE: Well, Fallujah, is actually called the City of

Mosques . And whether you’re a Sunni, like most of the

people in Western Iraq are, or whether you’re just an

ordinary Iraqi, it still has some resonance. And to

see a city destroyed liked that obviously won’t go

without some repercussion.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Especially since one of our reasons for

being in Iraq is to liberate these people, isn’t it?

Or…. do you think the people of Fallujah felt

liberated?

 

 

 

WARE: Well, I’m often troubled by just exactly why it

is that the West went into Iraq . Because, it seems to

me that the best justification that was made was

somehow it related to the war on terror, yet I’m

afraid to say, as in Fallujah, with all of Iraq , if

this is to prevent terrorism, then it’s failing. We’re

promoting, or spawning, or giving birth to terrorism,

by our presence there.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, in a way you represent a couple of

countries, because you’re from Australia , which

supports the war effort…

 

 

 

WARE: Yep.

 

 

 

LOPATE: And you work for TIME magazine, which is

an international publication, but is really an

American publication. So, ah, do you feel that, that

you’re an outsider from both of the… both of the

cultures you have grown up in and worked within?

 

 

 

WARE: No, clearly you can’t shed your, your, cultural

grounding, like you take off a coat. I mean, I can’t

divorce myself entirely from that, but what’s my role

in Iraq ? What was my role in Afghanistan for the year

before I went to Iraq ? It’s to observe and to report…

I need to maintain some sort of sense of …of…

neutrality, if not objectivity…

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, both Afghanistan …. Well,

Afghanistan to a lesser degree… but Iraq was very much

a … the big story up to the election, it seems… both

of them seem to be on the back burner, but we do hear

ominous things, such as Afghanistan is now a… one of

the major producers of… of opiates in the world…

maybe, right now, the most dangerous one… Ah, this is

after it was liberated… In Iraq we now… we’ve heard

51, maybe more, Americans killed just as a result of

the fighting in Fallujah. 868 I think wounded as …

according to today’s New York Times… This doesn’t

sound like a very good thing….

 

 

 

WARE: Well… It’s….

 

 

 

LOPATE: I mean, how much success can we claim?

 

WARE: Okay, in Fallujah, it was a sweeping military

victory. The objective was to retake territory. To

deny the insurgents sanctuary. By and large that’s

been accomplished. Congratulations. Has that broken

the back of the insurgency? No. Not at all… Maybe

you’ve dented them temporarily…

 

 

 

LOPATE: The numbers I’ve heard is 250 insurgents

rounded up, which doesn’t seem like very much

considering the cost in American lives, and Iraqi

lives… the Iraqis who have fought along side the

Americans. Haven’t most of the insurgents just slipped

out and regrouped elsewhere?

 

 

 

WARE: Yeah, when they say “250 insurgents rounded up”,

that’s just men of fighting age. Some will be

insurgents, most certainly. Others may not be. Some

we’ll never determine. And, I don’t know, just every

step take we’re alienating the Iraqi people more and

more and more… And we’re producing more terrorists and

insurgents.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Do we have any idea of how many insurgents

were in Fallujah and the surrounding areas when this

whole thing began?

 

 

 

WARE: There’s various estimates. Military intelligence

was telling me prior to the operation that their best

guess, based on signal intelligence and human

intelligence was anything from 1500 to three thousand.

Others put it upward of 5000 insurgents. However, I

can tell you for a fact, most of them had already left

the city well before the operation began.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Were they part of some kind of a unified

military force?

 

 

 

WARE: This is a very complex issue. But in a nutshell,

there’s essentially a two track war in Iraq . There

always has been. There’s been the high profile

terrorist war led by foreign Jihadis, come to fight

the Holy War inspired by Osama bin Laden, now led by

Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Then there’s the home grown

insurgency; former military officers who are fighting

a war of liberation. We’ve seen those two wars merge.

That happened at the beginning of the year. Now,

during the course of this year there was some friction

between those two interests. However, as they were

saying to me shortly before the operation when I

asked, “Is it possible for you to band together

again?” They said, “There is one thing that will unify

us once more. And that’s an attack on Fallujah.”

 

 

 

LOPATE: Hmm. Well, what separates them is very

different visions as to what an Iraq after all this

ends would look like…

 

 

 

WARE: Yeah, that’s one of the things… I mean it was

issues of tactics. I mean, former professional

military officers don’t like suicide bombings, don’t

accept the collateral damage that the foreign Jihadis

accept. Then there’s also the broader issue as you

touch upon, the Jihadis want to establish an Islamic

state. Not just in Iraq , but throughout the entire

Muslim world. The insurgents, the home grown former

military officers, they’re fighting to free their

country. The most interesting thing though is, that

the Jihadis, the al Qaida backed sponsored, inspired,

Holy Warriors, have hijacked the entire insurgency.

And now the military officers too are seeking an

Islamic state.

 

 

 

LOPATE: How would you suggest the military deal

with the issue of bombing mosques? We’ve been

criticised for shooting at them, but the insurgents

often use them as, as havens, don’t they?

 

 

 

WARE: Yeah, it’s a very thorny issue. I mean, the

entire crux of this war is… it’s a matter of

propaganda and perception. This is a war, as the

insurgents were telling me even last year, it’s not

going to be won and lost on the battlefield, but on

television. This is what the military calls an “IO

Campaign.” An Information Operation. So, the

insurgents are extraordinarily adept at it, much

better than the US military. So, by using a mosque as

a fighting position, that has immediate tactical

advantage, but they know that forces the US military

to reduce that mosque to rubble, and that has an

enormous play….

 

 

 

LOPATE: Did they have a lot of sophisticated

weapons themselves?

 

 

 

WARE: The insurgents? The insurgents have

untapped resources to weaponry and explosives. Both

within the country and stuff that just pours in over

the open borders that we have left largely unattended.

They don’t have great use of heavy weaponry, like

Dushka heavy machine guns, yet they still have mortar

systems, they are very adept, in fact the military

intelligence officers I mix with describe them as

ingenious at improvised explosive devices, booby

traps, and the way they lay their snares for us, are

just extraordinary.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Would securing the borders have been a

better tactic? Perhaps we could have avoided some of

these problems?

 

WARE: IT certainly would have assisted. You can never

guarantee that you would prevent… but, it would have

assisted the Islamization of this fight. I mean, a lot

of the… the religious fervour that is now fuelling

this war… has come across the borders. Yes, there was

fertile ground inside Iraq for this, but it took that

inspiration from abroad to really set it aflame…

 

 

 

LOPATE: You talked about the information war, why

has there been such disagreement over the dead and

wounded on both sides? Is it because… the US

government agencies have been downplaying them, and

the… the Iraqi insurgents have been inflating them? Or

is this also a way that the different media control

reporting on this war…..?

 

WARE: It’s a very complicated issue, but let me boil

it down to one broad principle: In this war, like

every other war I’ve been in, there’s one absolute,

and that is that everyone lies. On all sides. Civil,

military, the West, the Insurgents, the Jihadis,

everyone is spinning the story. For their own

purposes. I mean, don’t forget….

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, what does that mean for you? You

were covering the story. You had to go to the sources

you could go to… How much could you trust them?

 

 

 

WARE: Oh, I don’t trust anyone… ever. Ever. I just can

never turn my back, and I can never trust anything

that’s told to me. So, you need to check, recheck, and

check again. For example, in terms of the insurgents,

that’s how I began this long road and painful path

that I’ve eventually taken of actually being able to

penetrate the insurgents, and even the al Qaida

Jihadis. I’d be told many things by them in meetings

with them. As would all reporters. But a man masking

his face in a scarf sitting in a car can tell you

anything he likes. So, I kept saying, “Well, how do I

know it’s true?” And it was from that that they

eventually took me in deeper and deeper and deeper, to

just show me, to prove to me their bona fides, and

then the extent of what they were doing. It’s only

with your own eyes that you can ever know anything.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Is that why you allowed yourself to be

embedded with Alpha Company’s 3rd platoon? Because,

people have been concerned that embedded reporters

only see what they’re allowed to see?

 

 

 

WARE: Well, that’s very true. That’s the nature of

embedding. And that happens on both sides. When the

insurgents take me, to essentially in inverted commas,

“embed me” with their side, They only want to show me

what they want me to see. It’s the same with the US

military. So, it’s up to us to be there to see it. So,

and… and the army, particularly, as opposed to the

Marines, were much better on this… on press freedom,

in this particular operation in Fallujah. I mean, I

was with the 3rd Platoon of Alpha Company from the 2nd

Battalion 2nd Infantry Regiment. They said to me,

“Where do you want to be?” and I said, “I want to be

right where your boys are.” So, I was with 3rd Platoon

which was the very first troops to set foot inside

Fallujah on Monday night November 8. And they led the

battle all the way through that week. And I was there

side by side with them. Anything other than that

prohibits me from really knowing the truth.

 

 

 

LOPATE: My guest is Michael Ware, who is Baghdad

bureau chief at TIME magazine. Recently he returned

from Fallujah, where he was tracking Alpha Company’s

3rd Platoon in their battles in Fallujah. We will

continue our conversation after we take a little break

here on WNYC. Stay with us.

 

 

 

(MUSIC BREAK)

 

 

 

LOPATE: We’re back with Michael Ware who is

Baghdad bureau chief for TIME magazine. Recently he

returned from observing the fighting in Fallujah. This

is WNYC 93.9 AM820. We’re on line at WNYC.org. What

pressures are there on people reporting from Iraq ?

Recently the Wall Street Journal’s reporter got into

trouble for sending private email messages to friends

that revealed things that she wasn’t even putting in

her articles, but people still… supporters of the war

effort.. still wanted the Wall Street Journal to fire

her for doing that.

 

 

 

WARE: Oh, I mean that was absolutely ludicrous. I

know Farnaz very well. There’s not a single one

amongst us in Baghdad who could quibble with a

skerrick or a phrase of that email. And quite frankly,

I was stunned by it, because, most of us have put that

into print anyway. And certainly, when we avail

ourselves of broader media opportunities on television

and radio, we are all saying the exact same thing:

Iraq is an absolute disaster. And it’s …it’s… it’s not

improving. It’s deteriorating with a rapid pulse. It’s

a failing mission. I mean, for me, I’ve been asked,

“Are we winning?” And I say, “Well, that’s not really

the proper question. The question is how can we

prevent from losing?”

 

 

 

LOPATE: But, aren’t a lot of people putting their

hopes… pinning their hopes on the elections that are

coming up?

 

 

 

WARE: Well they can pin as much as they like on those

elections. I don’t know what good it’s going to do

them. I mean, I’ll tell you right now, you can set any

Disneyland date you like, let’s call it January 30th.

You can hold an election. It will certainly look like

an election. And it will sound like an election. But,

anything other than sham, you can’t hope to produce. I

mean, the… the West will do it’s best to support this

process, but under no circumstances can I see any

election in Iraq now or anywhere near in the future

that will produce anything akin to a real mandate for

anyone.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Why was Fallujah deemed so important to

win? Couldn’t it have just been cordoned off and kept

under control?

 

 

 

WARE: That… That’s… That was one option, although

that’s not as a simple a thing to do as one might

think. I mean, until you’re out on a battlefield, you

don’t really understand the nature of the confusion of

it all. And to seal a city, I mean, can you appreciate

just how many tens of thousands of troops you would

have to dedicate to that task? I mean, you’d almost

have to introduce the draft here in America just to

seal off Fallujah, to add to the troop numbers that

are already there. The other thing is that there was a

political imperative. I mean, obviously, Fallujah was

a festering sore. It was a gross act of brazen

defiance against the Iraqi government and against the

US forces…

 

 

 

LOPATE: Worse that Mosul ? Worse that Baquba?

 

 

 

WARE: Oh, absolutely. Now, I’ve spent a lot of time in

all those places: in Baquba, in Ramadi, in Tikrit, in

Behji, in Mosul , in Kirkuk … Oh, I’ve spent much time

in all those places on both sides of the fence.

Fallujah was particularly symbolic, I mean,

operationally it was very key. It was actually a city

that the insurgents and the Jihadis controlled. And on

their secret websites and on their secret message

boards, that I’ve been able to monitor, through the

assistance of the insurgents.. I get to see the way

they talk… and they referred to Fallujah as… as … Iraq

and The Independent Islamic State of Fallujah….

 

 

 

LOPATE: So, it had a symbolic significance?

 

 

 

WARE: Absolutely. But, I mean, militarily? At best

this is a tactical victory. We have reclaimed

territory. Strategically, it’s done nothing to stop

the terror. And much like the entire invasion of Iraq

of itself, but you know…. In many ways there was

certain reasons for doing it, but, but this is… this

is…(stend ?) nothing.. nothing at all. I mean, it was

important… I mean, cos, at the heart of an insurgency,

or an insurgent war, classic counter-insurgency

tactics is that essentially you must deny population

from the insurgents. It’s not about taking territory

and holding ground. That’s got nothing to do with the

nature of the fight in Iraq . So, we’re supposed to

drive a wedge between the ordinary people who support

and shelter, or at the very least, acquiesce to the

presence of the insurgents. By that measure, how are

we fairing? Well, their support is growing. It’s not

reducing.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, one of the first things we heard was

that we had to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi

people. So is that the battle we’re really losing

right now?

 

 

 

WARE: I mean it would be glib to say that the hearts

of minds of the people that we haven’t yet killed…

but… there is an element of…. Truth to that. I mean,

honestly, I see day by day as we add to the ranks of

the insurgency… Now, be it, I’ve been there… I’ve

watched civilians atomized before my eyes by withering

US fire. And….

 

 

 

LOPATE: These are civilians? These are innocent

bystanders?

 

 

 

WARE: Absolutely. I mean, this is the confusion of

war. By no means, is that meant to be a direct

criticism of the military itself or the individual

soldiers involved. I mean, I can talk to you for many

horrid and nightmarish hours about the nature of that,

but let’s not go there. I mean, innocents die.

 

 

 

LOPATE: And it’s hard to tell who is an innocent

and who’s an insurgent, isn’t it?

 

 

 

WARE: Absolutely, and when you have a confused Iraqi

father, driving his terrified family.. trying to

escape a battleground somewhere and he tentatively and

fearfully approaches a US checkpoint, which is manned

by baby-faced teenagers who have seen their friends

and colleagues horrendously torn apart and who are

coming under almost constant fire from every direction

from an enemy who hides as a civilian, and leaps out

when it’s least expected…. As that family approaches

that checkpoint a nervous trigger finger is a

nanosecond away from… from wiping them all out…. And

I’ve… I’ve just experienced far too much of that….

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, we just heard about a soldier

actually killing wounded prisoners…. Because of that

kind of anger? The anger that arises from having seen

your friends die?

 

 

 

WARE: I mean, I wasn’t in the room when that happened.

But I was in that battlefield, and I’ve certainly

seen…. Put it this way, that… wouldn’t have been the

first such occasion. If I had been there…. And even in

Fallujah itself, I saw stuff that was very akin to

that. And that’s the nature of war. And it’s not so

much…. I wouldn’t credit to the anger of an individual

soldier who pulled that trigger. It doesn’t have to be

anger.. You don’t sleep for a week. You’re in

constant battle. You’re on a perpetual adrenaline

rush. It’s all that keeps you going. You’re nerves are

absolutely fried. It’s just instinct half the time.

 

 

 

LOPATE: You sound like you’re battling

post-traumatic stress syndrome. Do you feel that way?

 

 

 

WARE: I don’t know. I’m rarely sober enough to think

about that. No, I’m just joking. I mean, no, I

wouldn’t say that. .. I mean, let’s just say that……

war is not an easy business. And it always exacts a

toll in one form or another. On everyone who is

touched by it.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Is there a humanitarian crisis in

Fallujah? Has the Red Cross gone in there yet?

 

 

 

WARE: When I left Fallujah itself, no. The Red

Crescent or other aid agencies weren’t being allowed

into the city. I mean, that distress me to a great

degree because to whom are they to go in to deliver

aid? In six days of non-stop combat I didn’t see a

single civilian. Now, there were civilians in pockets

of that city. But nothing like the 40,000 that was

originally estimated by military planners. So, the

fact that aid agencies aren’t in there right now,

isn’t to me a terribly disturbing thing… I mean,

obviously that’s a major issue in the Arabic press.

Again, this is the Information War.. it’s being played

up enormously about the innocent death in Fallujah.

Now, I know that civilians were killed, but was it on

the scale that’s being… that’s being drawn for us in

the Arab media. No, not at all.

 

 

 

LOPATE: My guest is Michael Ware, who is Baghdad

Bureau chief for TIME magazine. He was an eye witness

to the fighting in Fallujah from November 8th until

just last Saturday when he returned to the United

States . This is WNYC 93.9 AM820. We’re on line at

WNYC.org. So, are we receiving the… You talked earlier

about “spin”… Are we receiving as distorted a view of

what’s going on in Iraq as the local population is…

from its news sources?

 

 

 

WARE: I mean… To some degree, you must understand it’s

difficult to measure just what message you’re

receiving here in your homes, and in your offices….

 

 

 

LOPATE: You didn’t see the same CNN that we saw?

 

 

 

WARE: No, generally, I watch for example CNN

International… If I get access to news at all. But,

from what I do know, and from you know, what I read,

and what I’m able to absorb, you’re subject to as much

an….a carefully structured campaign of information and

spin as any constituency that is supporting and giving

the mandate for military operations. And that’s from

the Arab side, and from the US side. I mean, it would

be naïve to think that in some fashion we’re not all

being manipulated. And often, it’s subconscious or

it’s not even malign… it’s just so insidious… and

almost imperceptible and sometimes it can turn on

just the hint of nuance… It amounts to a distortion,

at any way you look at it, it amounts to a distortion…

I mean….

 

 

 

LOPATE: It doesn’t matter where we go?… I mean, I

could read your reports in TIME magazine, or watch the

BBC. Or I could watch the French press…. In the end,

I’m going to always get a distorted view, through the

filter of whoever’s doing the reporting?

 

 

 

WARE: I mean, we all do our best. And obviously, some

try harder than others, some succeed better than

others, some are less agenda ridden than others. But,

at the end of the day, I mean, just speaking for my

own personal experience, I mean clearly, I bring

whatever personal filters I have inherent within me,

but I try to, I try to keep them out of my reporting.

But, I mean, all I can ever do for you is I can just

bring you shards…. From the broken glass of… of a war.

I mean, I can only give you the slivers that I am able

to explore… And that’s the best that we can do.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, actually, this war is closest to

World War Two, because so much of it involves urban

warfare, isn’t it? We had Vietnam where it was

dangerous to go out of the cities, but relatively safe

within the cities. And then the First Gulf War was a

long distance war, and we were kind of told that

that’s the way future wars would be conducted. But,

here you were going from house to house. From street

to street. Weren’t you? With these soldiers?

 

 

 

WARE: Actually, we weren’t just going from house to

house. WE were, without a hint of exaggeration,

fighting room to room. I mean, I’m sitting in your

studio here, I’m looking at a large pane of glass that

leads onto the corridor… in one of the fights that the

unit I was with was in… we were on this side of the

pane of glass, and the insurgents were on the other.

We.. They were firing at each other from anything from

four to eight feet away.

 

 

 

LOPATE: How prepared are the soldiers… the

American soldiers for this kind of fighting? In one of

your articles they seemed to be in awe of the

insurgents….

 

 

 

WARE: I mean, I don’t know if the soldiers themselves

are in awe. They certainly have grown to respect their

foe. And any… to do anything else would be

extraordinarily unhealthy for them. I mean, they still

deride them with… with terms and names… but I mean,

that’s the nature of a soldier. But, every individual

grunt has a certain respect for the enemy with whom he

is engaging. They can’t not. I mean, the resilience,

the tenaciousness, and the ingenuity of the

insurgents…. It goes without question. And I mean,

there’s another thing… combat, of any kind, but

particularly something so close as point blank range

in urban warfare, is an extraordinarily personal

affair. There is nowhere to hide from yourself in

combat. There’s… You can’t pretend to be anything

other than you really are. There’s no room for

bravado. There’s no room for pretences of any kind.

You are stripped bare. And you are who you are. And

that’s on all sides of the conflict.

 

 

 

LOPATE: I get the feeling that you’re also telling

me that Fallujah may be won for the moment, and maybe

won for the rest of this war, but there’ll be many

more Fallujahs…

 

 

 

WARE: Oh, absolutely. There’s not going to be the

great…. You know… weeping sore that Fallujah was… I

mean, it was a stellar act of defiance. I mean, to be

able to actually secure and control a city, and to

beat off the US military, and to play such a savvy

political game that it tied the military hands… But,

we’re going to see it popping up here, there,

everywhere… In front, in behind, beside us, up and

down, everywhere. I mean…… this doesn’t feel like

victory to me….

 

 

 

LOPATE: Before the war there predictions that even

if it was easily won that once we left, sectarian

civil war would break out. Now that these soldiers

are, the insurgents… have developed so many battle

skills, do you think that’s even more likely?

 

 

 

WARE: Well, I mean, I know some of the home grown

Iraqi Nationalist insurgents that I deal with itch for

us just to simply get out of the way and let them get

on with it.

 

 

 

LOPATE: What would they bring back, another Saddam

Hussein? Or do they want…..

 

 

 

WARE: Actually, many people joke, perhaps a little too

seriously, that if we release Saddam and allowed him

to run in this election, he would go very close to

winning right now. Simply because so desperately crave

the security which he was able to deliver. But this is

not the real legacy that I fear of the folly of Iraq .

It’s not a civil war that tears Iraq apart, as

dreadful as that would be… We are giving birth to the

next generation of Jihad. September 11 was in many

ways the end note of al Qaida as we know it. Osama

knew that he would be severely impaired after

September 11, really it was an act of inspiration. He

was lifting the lid off the Pandora’s Box of Jihad.

After that, they were looking for a platform upon

which to wage that Jihad, and we gave it to them.

Invading Iraq on the sketchiest of grounds… to prevent

a link to terrorism that was… not… there. Saddam was a

threat? Without a doubt. He was a menace, he was a

dictator to his people. He was a human rights

nightmare. But, was he exporting terror? No! Now, we

are doing that. We’ve created the new Afghanistan .

Where the new generation of Al Qaida is blooding

themselves and returning out to the rest of the world

to spread….

 

 

 

LOPATE: So, we’re seeing a repeat of history? The

last time it was when the Soviet Union went into

Afghanistan and inspired a Jihad? And now the United

States and Britain , and a number of other allies…

Poland , for example, as the President reminds us,

have done the same thing…

 

 

 

WARE: Absolutely, I mean it’s not just turning Iraqis

to a religious fanaticism and a lust for Jihad against

us within Iraq . It’s also, I mean…. Some of these

guys I would speak to would say, “Look, we just want

the Americans out of our country, and we want to be

left to our own devices. Iraqi solutions to Iraqi

problems.” Now these guys say to me, “I’m fighting for

Islam.” And I say, “Well, what will you do when the

Americans leave?” They said, “Well, we’ll follow

them.” And the other thing is , young Muslim men are

pouring in over the borders. Bathing themselves in the

blood of Jihad in Iraq . And then, going home again.

This is Afghanistan . This was what the Al Qaida

generation, or class of veterans from Afghanistan did.

We’re creating the next generation. We’ve already

created their next leader: Abu Muzab al Zarqawi. A

marginal figure before this invasion. Now, he has a

price on his head that is matched only by Osama

himself. And, his place in the Jihad milieu in fact

threatens Osamas.

 

 

 

LOPATE: We’ve run out of time, but I do have to

ask you whether you think anyone in Washington is

listening to you?

 

 

 

WARE: ….. They may listen, but do they hear? I don’t

know. I mean, I’m ….. what am I? I’m just one

insignificant little voice that rails against the

horror and the lunacy that I see. I mean, I don’t have

any expectation whatsoever that I can actually change

things. The best I can do is just document and record

and speak with the voice of the people who are there.

 

 

 

LOPATE: Well, you are the Baghdad bureau chief of

TIME magazine. And I want to thank you so much for

being with us today. Michael Ware, who was recently

tracking Alpha Company’s 3rd Platoon in its attacks on

Fallujah. It’s ultimate recapturing of Fallujah. It’s

been …. It’s been wonderful having you here….thank you

so much…

 

 

 

WARE: Thank you, it’s my pleasure.

 

Transcript provided by Paul: PKJ

 

Copyright: WNYC

 

(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this

material is distributed without profit to those who

have expressed a prior interest in receiving the

included information for research and educational

purposes. Information Clearing House has no

affiliation whatsoever with the originator of this

article nor is Information Clearing House endorsed or

sponsored by the originator.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - You care about security. So do we.