PWCs

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In a message dated 04/18/2001 10:45:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

<< BTW, when PWCs were asked in an informal poll what helps the most with the

digestive system problems, the number one answer was digestive enzymes.

 

Digestive enzymes would definately get my vote too. I almost think they

helped more than acidophilus. Vitamins? Probably helped but I did not

experience significant improvement until I started on enzymes. My doctor

gave me prescription pancreatin. I gained 8 lbs. Took it right back off when

I stopped, but it gave me a jump start. I was concerned about developing a

dependency, therefore I stopped taking them and switched to alternating

papaya with various brands of plant based ones. Now that I have learned more

about TCM, I have gained it back. All in all, I was down to 93- 95 lbs and

am up to about 108. At 5' 4 " I'm still a twig (Yang, Blood & Yin Def). But

enzymes were essential.

 

<< As the vitamins, minerals, and supplements began to do their work over

time

and I had more energy (and the brain fog wasn't as great)

 

The brain fog can be down right dangerous ... I came very close to burning

down our house one night! Mis-programmed the microwave and walked outside.

Luckily my husband was home, I'm not sure I would have handled it effectively

had I been alone. Filled the entire house with thick grey smoke.

 

<< I was as irritable and charming as a rabid porcupine. Or a cactus.

Sometimes I still am. The Liver involvement.

 

Yes I still have to be careful too. Still need alot of work on Yang and

Blood supplementation but I have found it very hard to do without creating

stagnation with the Yin Def. Stagnation relieving herbs are too drying for

me. I'm learning and getting better at it, but it has been a difficult dance

to choreograph.

 

Other than food and herbs? I have found Yoga to be wonderful. Exercise is

essential but I needed to find ways to exercise without beating myself up.

It isn't for everyone, but certainly one to at least try if other forms are

too strenuous.

 

Bottom line ... tough long road. But you know what? Even with all that I

still hope to accomplish, I feel better than I did 20 years ago in my so

called " prime " . Energy level has been very good for at least 5 years now

(except for when I get a little too carried away experimenting with various

properties of herbs and do myself in!) No biggy ... I put myself back

together and continue my quest. Head is clear, vision is clear, outlook

good. It's well worth the struggle.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

>helped more than acidophilus. Vitamins? Probably helped but I did not

>experience significant improvement until I started on enzymes.

 

In my case there were some high dosages of various vitamins and minerals. I

remember the recommendation for A was 60,000 IU or more a day. (Can't

remember exactly.) I was afraid to stay on this amount for more than 3

weeks because A is one of those fat-soluble vitmains that can build up in

the body and create problems. So I dropped to 40,000. That was too low.

For a few weeks I had to stay on 48,000.

 

Eventually I got down to the 20,000s. But for a long time I had to stay on

24,000 per day. Every time I tried to go below that, I ran into problems.

The infection and the brain fog returned big time. Eventually I got down to

16,000 and then to 8,000. For several months I didn't have to take any A,

but I've recently have had to start back on 2 a day. Considering how much

more active I've been this spring - more than in many years - I don't really

mind.

 

It seems like there was more than on multiple B a day - may have been 3 a

day. Vitamin C and zinc also stands out. And the herb echinacea. I had to

stay on echinacea for years though I was able to drop the dose. Every time

I stopped it or ran out, problems would return. I finally got to the point

where I was off echinacea for many months without problems. I've had to

start that back this spring, but what the hey, it's allergy season and I am

a lot more active physically than I used to be. I've been doing a lot of

carpentry and painting.

 

I got some help from the magnesium pills, but I really improved when I was

placed on the Mg shots. After a few years on Mg shots I had improved to the

point where I now can use the pills instead of the shots.

 

Discovering the digestive enzymes was another step up in terms of feeling

better and having more energy and abilities.

 

>about TCM, I have gained it back. All in all, I was down to 93- 95 lbs and

>am up to about 108. At 5' 4 " I'm still a twig (Yang, Blood & Yin Def).

>But

>enzymes were essential.

 

I went the opposite way with the weight gain - especially when I was on

long-term prednisone treatment. (That was back in the days before I got

into the alternative healing. Live and learn.) For readers unfamiliar with

CFIDS, extremes are common. There often is either weight loss or weight

gain. Sometimes the same individual will experience both. The body

temperature usually will be below normal or there will be a constant

low-grade fever. My below normal body temperature was correlating with how

sick I was. I was the sickest when it was the lowest - down to 96 degrees.

 

White blood cells counts often will be below normal or above normal. Ditto

for red blood cell counts. Settlementaion rates often will be below or

above normal. The PWC often will have insomnia or hypersomnia (sleeping all

the time). The insomnia is by far the more common.

 

Because of these particular symptoms (and others), Western medicine

researchers have been looking increasingly at the Hypothalamus- Pituitary -

Adrenal axis in CFIDS. For some reason it's common for ANA to be slightly

elevated with a speckled pattern in PWCs. (Elevated ANA raises questions of

an autoimmune reaction.)

 

Suspect and rule in or rule out Blood Stasis problems in PWCs. SPET scans

have revealed that blood flow to the brain decreases in many PWCs following

overdoing physically (like aerobic exercise) and may not return to normal

for several days.

 

>The brain fog can be down right dangerous ... I came very close to burning

>down our house one night! Mis-programmed the microwave and walked outside.

>Luckily my husband was home, I'm not sure I would have handled it

>effectively

>had I been alone. Filled the entire house with thick grey smoke.

 

It's true. We sometimes laugh about it, but it can be dangerous.

 

>Yes I still have to be careful too. Still need alot of work on Yang and

>Blood supplementation but I have found it very hard to do without creating

>stagnation with the Yin Def. Stagnation relieving herbs are too drying for

>me.

 

How does it work when you combine the Stagnation relieving herbs with the

Yin tonic herbs? It can be a bit tricky getting the ratios right.

 

I'm Kidney Yin Deficient, but it's to a much lesser degree than the Kidney

Yang Deficiency. I've found that I need the Yin tonic herbs more at night

than during the day. I've found that chewing a very, very tiny piece of

asparagus root along with a very, very tiny piece of licorice root works

very well in my case.

 

I'm fond of Tu Si Zi, aka Semen Cuscutae, aka dodder seeds, because it's

primarily a Yang tonic but it also has Yin tonic properties. Plus, it

benefits Essence. Herbal Epimedii, aka Yin Yang Huo, aka Horny Goat Weed,

has been the best Yang tonic herb for me, probably because it also expels

Wind Cold Dampness, and I have some definite problems with Wind, Cold, and

Dampness. Some of the other Yang tonic herbs are a bit much for me at time.

 

>I'm learning and getting better at it, but it has been a difficult dance

>to choreograph.

 

Same for me. The more I learn, the more I'm able to finetune treatment, and

the better I do.

 

>Other than food and herbs? I have found Yoga to be wonderful. Exercise is

>essential but I needed to find ways to exercise without beating myself up.

>It isn't for everyone, but certainly one to at least try if other forms are

>too strenuous.

 

The Qi Gong works better for me than the Yoga does. Probably because of the

Qi Stagnation and Blood Stasis problems.

 

I want to caution others reading this that first a PWC has to be brought up

to a certain level via other means (like herbs, acupressure, etc.) before

even Yoga or Qi Gong can be attempted. I was unable to do either of these

until after I saw the TCM herbalist and had been on the herbs for 3 weeks.

It may take longer for other people as I was getting some help from the

vitamins and minerals and enzymes when I started the TCM herbs.

 

The Hara breathing exercise also helps me. (There are some posts on this

list about Hara breathing.) Acupressure of Bladder 23 and Bladder 47,

Stomach 36, and Conception Vessel 6 are particularly helpful for me. There

are other acupoints as well. I do acupressure as I watch TV. Sometimes I

do it in the bathtub when the hot water has warmed my muscles and relaxed

them. Massage also helps.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Victoria

 

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In a message dated 04/19/2001 1:20:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

<< How does it work when you combine the Stagnation relieving herbs with the

Yin tonic herbs? It can be a bit tricky getting the ratios right.

 

I pretty much stick to Yin tonics that aren't quite so hard to digest.

Seaweed when I can get away with it (warm weather), I really like privet

berry (ligustrum), and Lycii. I also can take knox gelatin without too much

problem and that seems to do me more good than anything. I take chlorella

religiously. Lots of wimpy ones in other words instead of a few big shots.

I always seem to have problems with the heavier ones no matter what I combine

them with. I also stick to stimulants that aren't terribly drying. My all

time favorite is cinnamon and I also utilize kudzu and a little citrus peel

occasionally. I find I don't need so many stagnation herbs if I'm careful to

address Yang. Cuscuta is about the only Yang tonic I can take in warm

weather. I have had no problem with it and it always seems to help me. I

was doing well on astragalus in the winter but I don't dare take it now in

spring.

 

I went for the longest time feeling as if I was going in circles. I'd do

better .... then revert .... then do better ... then revert again. As I

mentioned in previous posts the seasons seem to play a very large part with

me. Probably because I am both Yin and Yang Def. ... those definately change

seasonally.

 

I am currently working on supplementing Fire and Water, since Wood and Metal

are most prevalent in the atmosphere now. Along with that I am sedating Wood

and Metal (but not depleting them, I have deficiencies across the board). I

took your idea about the weights and balances and ran with it. Thankyou!

You can map out whats going on outside, then match it up to whats going on

inside (body) and see where you need to supplement or sedate. Anyway, I know

that sounded like a bunch of beans, but I am doing well as a result. (I

wasn't after the arrival of spring) An interesting thing happened today

though. I was supplementing Heart Qi (albizzia and cinnamon) along with

supplementing Kidney Yin. I started to get VERY nervous and had a dry mouth.

I knew that taking something cooling would not be the answer (been there done

that) so it occurred to me that to supplement Water, I needed to do both Yin

and Yang ... since I have deficiencies of each. I took some cuscuta and sure

enough, I feel calmer and my tongue is moist ... no more dry yukky mouth.

Pretty cool. There is a definate play between the elements. Before now if I

had a reaction to an herb, I would just try something else. If we think in

terms as you mentioned Victoria about what weights and measures that we need

to acheive that balance, we will be much more successful.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

>I pretty much stick to Yin tonics that aren't quite so hard to digest.

>Seaweed when I can get away with it (warm weather), I really like privet

>berry (ligustrum), and Lycii.

 

I've found privet berries/ fruit (aka Fr Ligustri, aka Nu

Zhen Zi to be a good Yin tonic for me. It's thermal energy is neutral, and

it specifically targets the Kindeys and Liver - just what I need. But it is

contraindicated in Yang Deficiency so I have to make sure to combine it with

Yang tonics since Yang Deficiency is my primary problem.

 

For those new to TCM, some of the Yin tonics can be a bit too heavy,

especially if there are Stagnation and Dampness problems. Yin cools,

moistens, and calms the body. Yang activates and warms. Different herbs in

a particular class of herbs (like Yin tonic herbs, Yang tonic herbs, etc.)

work better for different individuals depending on the total picture.

 

Fr (Fructus, fruit of) Lycii, aka Chinese wolfberry fruit, aka matrimony

vine fruit, aka lycium fruit, aka Gou Qi Zi, primarily is classified as a

Blood tonic, but it's also a Yin tonic. This one is very good in cases

where there is both pronounced Blood and Yin Deficiency. It specifically

targets the Liver, Lung, and Kidney. The Chinese Herbal Medicine Materia

Medica, compiled and translated by Bensky & Gamble states, " Because this

herbs is neither hot nor cold, it is commonly used in treating Liver and

Kidney deficiency. " (p. 334) For those new to TCM, whenever Kidney Yin

Deficiency is present, Kidney Yang Deficiency also always is present to a

lesser degree. And vice versa. Most Yin tonics have Cool or Cold thermal

energy. Take a Yin tonic with Cool or Cold thermal energy, and you will

feel cooler. This is fine as long as you're treating something like Lung

Yin Deficiency or Stomach Yin Deficieny. But when it's Kidney Yin

Deficiency, there almost always are Kidney Yang Deficiency problems to a

lesser extent. The problem with Kidney Yin Deficiency is that a Yin tonic

with Cool or Cold thermal energy can damage the Kidney Yang, and all of a

sudden the person who was too hot (because of Deficiency Heat, aka Yin

Deficiency) can be too cold (due to the Kidney Yang Deficiency). This is

one of the finer points of of selecting herbs when Kidney Yin or Kidney Yang

Deficiency is a major problem. The ones with the neutral thermal energy

often work the best in these cases (though there are exceptions). Lynn is

primarily Kidney Yin Deficient, so she could experience too much cooling

with a Yin tonic with Cool or Cold energy. I'm primarily Kidney Yang

Deficient, and I frequently run into the opposite problem of the Yang tonic

herbs warming me too much and bringing out the Deficiency Heat problems (aka

Yin Deficiency problems). Most of the Yang tonic herbs have warming energy.

A notable exception is Semen Cuscutae, aka dodder seed, aka Tu Si Zi. Note

that the Yin tonic herb Privet Fruit also has neutral thermal energy.

(Note: Another part of the wolfberry plant also gets used in the bark

of the root - Cortex Lycii Radicis, aka Ki Gu Pi. The root bark, unlike the

berries has Cold thermal energy. The primary use of the Root bark is to

cool the Blood. This is another example of different parts of a plant

having different properties.)

 

Seaweed, aka Laminaria japonica, aka Kunbu, has Cold energy. It's not

surprising that you report that you do better with this one in warm weather.

Ot specifically targets the Spleen and Stomach. It acts to soften the

firm and induce urine. (Fan, A Manual of Chinese Herbal Medicine, p. 204.)

 

I also can take knox gelatin without too much

>problem and that seems to do me more good than anything. I take chlorella

>religiously. Lots of wimpy ones in other words instead of a few big shots.

 

It's frequently this way when it comes to treating CFIDS. The milder

substances work the best.

 

>I always seem to have problems with the heavier ones no matter what I

>combine

>them with. I also stick to stimulants that aren't terribly drying. My all

>time favorite is cinnamon and I also utilize kudzu and a little citrus peel

>occasionally. I find I don't need so many stagnation herbs if I'm careful

>to

>address Yang.

 

That's surprising that cinnamon isn't too drying for you. I assume you mean

cinnamon twigs, which have Warm energy and are classified as an herb to

relieve Wind Chill. Rml (Ramulus, twig of) Cinnamon, aka Gui Zhi. Cinnamon

twigs are part of a broad category known as Herbs for Relieving the

Exterior. Cinnamon bark, aka Cortex Cinnamomi Cassiae, aka Rou Gui, has Hot

thermal energy and is classified primarily as an herb for Warming the

Interior and Expeling Cold. Cinnamon bark usually gets used in cases where

Kidney Yang Deficiency is the primary problem, in cases of True Cold - False

Heat where what little Yang there is is " floating " (it " leads fire back to

its source " , Bensky & Gamble, p. 302), and for cases where the Interior Cold

is so entrenched and strong that it's causing Qi Stagnation and/or Blood

Stasis. The bark also " encourages the generation of qi and blood: with qi

and blood tonics as an auxiliary herb for chronic deficiency of qi and

blood. " (B & G, p. 302)

 

Kudzu root, aka Rx (Radix, root of) Puerariae, aka Ge Gen, also is part of

that broad class of Herbs for Relieving the Exterior. It's subclass is

Relieves Wind Heat. (For those new to TCM, the term " Exterior " refers to

head, neck, shoulders, arms, legs, skin, muscles, and meridians. When a

condition is " Interior " it is in the trunk of the body and the Organs.)

 

>As I

>mentioned in previous posts the seasons seem to play a very large part with

>me.

 

Hence, the importance of the Herbs for Relieving the Exterior. So many

people with CFIDS and/or FMS are extremely weather sensitive. My husband

jokes I'm better than any professional weatherperson.

 

Citus peel relieves Qi Stagnation and encourages Qi to move downward. There

are two, and they have slightly different properties. Fr Citri seu Ponciri,

aka Zhi Qiao, is the mature citrus peel, and Fr Citri seu Ponciri Immaturus,

aka Zhi Shi, is the immature citrus peel. (Not only can different parts of

a plant have different properties, properties can vary according to what

stage of growth the part is in. Some believe that the mature citrus peel is

better when Deficiency is present, and the immature citrus peel is better

when there is constipation due to lack of peristalsis. They both have

slightly Cold thermal energy which means that I need to mix them with herbs

with Hot or Warm energy when I use them. My lack of peristalsis ( wavelike

contractions which move fecal matter through the intestines) is due to both

Qi Stagnation and Cold. In fact, they reinforce each other. The Cold makes

the Qi Stagnation worse, and the Qi Stagnation makes the Interior Cold

worse. So I need to treat both at the same time. I usually stick with the

mature citrus because of the severe Deficiency problems. All the herbs that

Move Qi also tend to disperse it. It's important to also include Qi tonic

herbs along with herbs to move Qi if the person has Qi Deficiency problems

along with Qi Stagnation problems.

 

>Cuscuta is about the only Yang tonic I can take in warm

>weather. I have had no problem with it and it always seems to help me.

 

For those who have just joined this discussion Cuscuta is primarily a Tang

tonic herb, but it also supplements Yin. It has neutral thermal energy and

specifically targets the Kidneys and Liver so it's a very good

herb in most cases of Kidney Yin Deficiency or Kidney Yang Deficiency. It

also benefits Jing (Essence). It's contraindicated in pregnancy except to

prevent miscarriage.

 

>I

>was doing well on astragalus in the winter but I don't dare take it now in

>spring.

 

Rx Astragali, aka Huang Qi, is a Qi tonic herb. It's especially good for

supplementing Protective, aka Wei, Qi. Protective Qi is the Qi which

circulates at the surface of the body and gives people resistence to

infections and weather changes. If Protective Qi is Deficient, the person

tends to catch anything which is going around and/or have trouble adjusting

to changes in weather.

 

Unfortunately astragalus is contraindicated in cases of Yin Deficiency with

Heat. All Yin Deficiency is marked by some Heat (Deficiency Heat) because

there is not enough Yin to cool the body properly. The phase " Yin

Deficiency with Heat " means that the Heat is particularly marked. Because

Yin also moistens, people who are Yin Deficient also tend to have problems

with Dryness. Hence, the need to be careful about herbs which tend to dry.

 

A good general rule is that all tonic herbs are contraindicated when

infection is present as they can " feed " the infection. There are exceptions

to this rule, but in general stop all tonic herbs when infection is present.

 

 

>I went for the longest time feeling as if I was going in circles. I'd do

>better .... then revert .... then do better ... then revert again. As I

>mentioned in previous posts the seasons seem to play a very large part with

>me. Probably because I am both Yin and Yang Def. ... those definately

>change

>seasonally.

 

One thing I stress is whenever a person is weather sensitive, always ask

why. The number one reason is Deficient Protective Qi. But, weather

senistivity also results in cases of long-standing Kidney Yang Deficincy and

in cases of Blood Deficiency because there is not enough Blood to moisten

and nurture the muscles properly.

 

For those new to TCM, any time there is an Interior Deficiency problem, it

can cause the person to be impacted more by external weather conditions than

if the person wasn't Deficient. I have had some severe Yang Deficiency

problems. I don't have enough Yang to properly warm my body, so when it

gets " cold " , I really feel it. It's adding cold on top of cold. The reason

I put " cold " in parentheses is because it used to be so severe that anything

below the mid-80s was too cold for me. Likewise, a person who is Yin

Deficient is going to feel the heat more-so than a person who isn't Yin

Deficient. This person already lacks enough Yin to properly cool the body,

so this person isn't going to handle extra heat from the environment very

well. When it Kidney Yin Deficiency, Kidney Yang Deficieny almost always is

going to be present in lesser degree, and vice versa. Hence, people who are

Kidney Yin or Kidney Yang Deficiency don't tend to handle any extremes of

temperature very well.

 

Now here's the kicker. The External and the Internal can reinforce each

other, especially in cases of long-standing Yin or Yang Deficiency. Yang is

damaged by cold, so when Cold invades this person becomes even more Yang

Deficient. This in turn means that the person is even less resistant to

Exterior conditions, including cold weather. Likewise, Yin is damaged by

Heat. Hot weather can cause a Yin Deficient person to become even more Yin

Deficient. These conditons can snowball. So if the Yang or Yin Deficiency

has been long-standing, it will not be enough just to treat the Deficiency.

You're also going to have to use Herbs that Warm the Interior along with the

Yang tonic herbs and identify and treat why the person is so sensitive to

external temperature. In cases of long-standing Yin Deficiency when the

person also is weather sensitive, you're also going to need to identify and

treat why the person is weather sensitive in addition to supplementing with

Yin tonic herbs.

 

>An interesting thing happened today

>though. I was supplementing Heart Qi (albizzia and cinnamon) along with

>supplementing Kidney Yin. I started to get VERY nervous and had a dry

>mouth.

>I knew that taking something cooling would not be the answer (been there

>done

>that) so it occurred to me that to supplement Water, I needed to do both

>Yin

>and Yang ... since I have deficiencies of each. I took some cuscuta and

>sure

>enough, I feel calmer and my tongue is moist ... no more dry yukky mouth.

 

When it's the Kidneys, Yang tonic formulas always include at least one Yin

tonic herb, and Yin tonic formulas always include at least one Yang tonic

herb. Since cuscuta has both Yang and Yin tonic herbs and specifically

target the Kidneys, it serves both functions by itself.

 

Victoria

 

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