Horses

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

You have a very interesting letter. I am so sorry you

are having so much trouble with your horse. I am not a

TCM practitioner, so I can't offer advice in that

regard. I have been breeding quarter horses for over

15 years, so I can tell you of some things I've

observed.

First a little more background about me. At 44 I've

gone back to school to try to enter vet school. I am

also interested in . Unfortunatly, I

live in South Central TX and from what I've observed,

vets around here are anti herbal anything. They call

it the " flower and shrub " method practiced by a bunch

of nuts. How do I know this? I've been doing volunteer

work for vets the past 3 years. Here in TX it seems to

be the " good ole boy " club. No I do not share my

interest in TCM, as I need them to take me seriously.

They also think I'm a little strange anyway!

Back to your horse. Many years ago I had a big

Thouroghbred gelding. He was thin when I bought him,

so I wanted to fatten him up a bit. I did the normal,

high calorie feed and vitamins. The high calorie feed

was corn. It is supposed to put the weight on quickly.

My horse had a horrible allergic reaction to the corn.

He looked like someone on speed. He was very hard to

handle. He would just run and run and run. His eyes

would bug out like he was crazy. I took him off the

corn and vitamins and fed him good quality alfalfa hay

only, he returned to be the sweet, docile animal I had

bought. My point here is, in many areas of the U.S.

the feed is changed by the season. Different formulas

for different seasons. I would check into his feed and

see if there are any changes. It could also be he's

getting a hold of some weed out in the pasture that is

causing agrevation. Also, feed changes can agrevate

founder.

What Victoria said about herbs and animals is correct.

Animals process medicines and herbs very differently

than humans. For instance a 60lb dog can be given

100mg of Benedril for allergies and barely feel

effects. A human would be " knocked out " for days.

While the herbs may be appropriate for the situation

in humans, perhaps they are not appropriate in horses.

 

One more point, most Vets learn TCM at a weekend

seminar. TCM human practitioners usually have Master's

degrees and 3-4 years of intense study. How can a vet

learn TCM for all tUnfortunately animals in 3 days?

Unfortunatly in most states, it is illegal acupuncture

to practice TCM or accupuncture on animals, so that is

probably the reluctance your herbalist is showing.

Another method you might try is massage. I have heard

great stuff about Linda Tellington-Jones' T-Touch

method for calming nervous animals. There have been

some substantuated studies regarding this. Perhaps you

can find a practitioner in your area and see if she or

he can help you.

I hope you are able to work this out. I have six

horses of my own, and I really hate it when they get

sick!

Good Luck!

Cindy

 

 

 

Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site

http://webhosting.

[Guest guest]

> First a little more background about me. At 44 I've

> gone back to school to try to enter vet school. I am

> also interested in . Unfortunatly, I

> live in South Central TX and from what I've observed,

> vets around here are anti herbal anything. They call

> it the " flower and shrub " method practiced by a bunch

> of nuts.

 

I can imagine, my own vet is deeply skeptical, but polite and egoless enough

to support me whatever I try, after all, he knows he cannot help!

 

> Different formulas

> for different seasons. I would check into his feed and

> see if there are any changes. It could also be he's

> getting a hold of some weed out in the pasture that is

> causing agrevation. Also, feed changes can agrevate

> founder.

 

For sure it can - a change in the grass has caused my horses brush with

laminitis every time. He has never had any grain his entire life - lives on

grass hay (the lowest sugar I can get) with supplementary protein, mainly

from alfalfa, nothing molassed etc, etc. Everything is analysed to balance

the minerals perfectly, and even they are from chelate sources, not

sulphates or phosphates which acidify. Also plenty of anti-oxidents given in

as natrual a form as possible - they really help too. I work in the feed

industry and have been researching and picking everyone's brains on that

score for many years, so I know there is not another thing I can do.

 

> While the herbs may be appropriate for the situation

> in humans, perhaps they are not appropriate in horses.

 

Yes, it is a big concern in using TCM. I really need to find a top rate TCM

vet who can at least check over any herbal prescription - even if only over

the net. My own vet is more relaxed - he does not believe there is anything

that could cause any real damage, especially in that he is sure I would

know immediately if it was not right, and stop administering it.

 

Are there TCM vets in China? You'd think some would have 'moved west' at

some point? I did find reference to someone in the North of England - I must

find out who and what she is.

 

> Another method you might try is massage. I have heard

> great stuff about Linda Tellington-Jones' T-Touch

> method for calming nervous animals. There have been

> some substantuated studies regarding this. Perhaps you

> can find a practitioner in your area and see if she or

> he can help you.

 

I did try that years ago - he totally freaked. The person concerned was not

right inside IMO, and he is very sensitive to that. Unfortunately there are

few kinds of pressure/touch he can tolerate (let alone enjoy or be relaxed

by) from a human anyway - he loves mutual horsie massage, but human attempts

at massage tend to irritate him. He loves sheath cleaning, chest and dock

scratches, and ear and face rubs from me, not much else. Grooming really

irritates him.

 

Many thanks for your concern!

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Here is someone in England that may be able to help you.

I met her at an Ohashiatsu class in Evanston, Illinois, near Chicago.

But she lives England. Here is her contact information:

 

Jacqueline Cook

Qualified Practitioner & Teacher

of Shiatsu with Horses and Dogs

 

Rose Cottage, Millaway Farm

Goosey, Nr Faringdon

Oxfordshire, SN7 8PA

United Kingdom

Telephone / FAX 011-44-1367-718958

jacqueline <jacqueline

 

 

Her Website www.shiatsu-for-horses.com <http://www.shiatsu-for-horses.com>

has further information you might find useful.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bryon

 

 

jackie [sMTP:jackie]

Friday, November 15, 2002 5:00 AM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Horses

 

Are there TCM vets in China? You'd think some would have 'moved west' at

some point? I did find reference to someone in the North of England - I must

find out who and what she is.

> Another method you might try is massage. I have heard

> great stuff about Linda Tellington-Jones' T-Touch

> method for calming nervous animals. There have been

> some substantuated studies regarding this. Perhaps you

> can find a practitioner in your area and see if she or > he can

help you.

 

I did try that years ago - he totally freaked. The person concerned was not

right inside IMO, and he is very sensitive to that. Unfortunately there are

few kinds of pressure/touch he can tolerate (let alone enjoy or be relaxed

by) from a human anyway - he loves mutual horsie massage, but human attempts

at massage tend to irritate him. He loves sheath cleaning, chest and dock

scratches, and ear and face rubs from me, not much else. Grooming really

irritates him.

Jackie

 

Cindy [sMTP:aqhahorses4u]

Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:14 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Horses

 

Jackie,

I have been breeding quarter horses for over 15 years, so I can tell you of

some things I've observed.

At 44 I've gone back to school to try to enter vet school. I am also

interested in . Unfortunately, I live in South Central TX

and from what I've observed, vets around here are anti herbal anything. They

call it the " flower and shrub " method practiced by a bunch of nuts. How do I

know this? I've been doing volunteer work for vets the past 3 years. Here in

TX it seems to be the " good ole boy " club. No I do not share my interest in

TCM, as I need them to take me seriously. They also think I'm a little

strange anyway! Back to your horse. Many years ago I had a big

Thoroughbred gelding. He was thin when I bought him, so I wanted to fatten

him up a bit. I did the normal, high calorie feed and vitamins. The high

calorie feed was corn. It is supposed to put the weight on quickly. My

horse had a horrible allergic reaction to the corn. He looked like someone

on speed. He was very hard to handle. He would just run and run and run. His

eyes would bug out like he was crazy. I took him off the corn and vitamins

and fed him good quality alfalfa hay only, he returned to be the sweet,

docile animal I had bought. My point here is, in many areas of the U.S. the

feed is changed by the season. Different formulas for different seasons. I

would check into his feed and see if there are any changes. It could also be

he's getting a hold of some weed out in the pasture that is causing

aggravation. Also, feed changes can aggravate founder.

One more point, most Vets learn TCM at a weekend seminar. TCM human

practitioners usually have Master's degrees and 3-4 years of intense study.

How can a vet learn TCM for all tUnfortunately animals in 3 days?

Unfortunately in most states, it is illegal acupuncture to practice TCM or

acupuncture on animals, so that is probably the reluctance your herbalist is

showing. Another method you might try is massage. I have heard great stuff

about Linda Tellington-Jones' T-Touch method for calming nervous animals.

There have been some substantiated studies regarding this. Perhaps you can

find a practitioner in your area and see if she or he can help you.

Good Luck!

Cindy

 

jackie [sMTP:jackie]

Friday, November 15, 2002 5:00 AM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Horses

 

> First a little more background about me. At 44 I've

> gone back to school to try to enter vet school. I am

> also interested in . Unfortunately, I

> live in South Central TX and from what I've observed,

> vets around here are anti herbal anything. They call

> it the " flower and shrub " method practiced by a bunch of nuts.

 

I can imagine, my own vet is deeply skeptical, but polite and egoless enough

to support me whatever I try, after all, he knows he cannot help!

> Different formulas for different seasons. I would check into his

feed and

> see if there are any changes. It could also be he's

> getting a hold of some weed out in the pasture that is

> causing aggravation. Also, feed changes can aggravate > founder.

 

For sure it can - a change in the grass has caused my horses brush with

laminitis every time. He has never had any grain his entire life - lives on

grass hay (the lowest sugar I can get) with supplementary protein, mainly

from alfalfa, nothing molassed etc, etc. Everything is analysed to balance

the minerals perfectly, and even they are from chelate sources, not

sulphates or phosphates which acidify. Also plenty of anti-oxidants given in

as natural a form as possible - they really help too. I work in the feed

industry and have been researching and picking everyone's brains on that

score for many years, so I know there is not another thing I can do.

While the herbs may be appropriate for the situation > in humans,

perhaps they are not appropriate in horses.

 

Yes, it is a big concern in using TCM. I really need to find a top rate TCM

vet who can at least check over any herbal prescription - even if only over

the net. My own vet is more relaxed - he does not believe there is anything

that could cause any real damage, especially in that he is sure I would

know immediately if it was not right, and stop administering it.

Are there TCM vets in China? You'd think some would have 'moved west' at

some point? I did find reference to someone in the North of England - I must

find out who and what she is.

> Another method you might try is massage. I have heard

> great stuff about Linda Tellington-Jones' T-Touch

> method for calming nervous animals. There have been

> some substantuated studies regarding this. Perhaps you

> can find a practitioner in your area and see if she or > he can

help you.

 

I did try that years ago - he totally freaked. The person concerned was not

right inside IMO, and he is very sensitive to that. Unfortunately there are

few kinds of pressure/touch he can tolerate (let alone enjoy or be relaxed

by) from a human anyway - he loves mutual horsie massage, but human attempts

at massage tend to irritate him. He loves sheath cleaning, chest and dock

scratches, and ear and face rubs from me, not much else. Grooming really

irritates him.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 16/12/2002 15:24:41 GMT Standard Time, bebrandt

writes:

 

 

> Here is someone in England that may be able to help you.

> I met her at an Ohashiatsu class in Evanston, Illinois, near Chicago.

> But she lives England. Here is her contact information:

>

 

Thanks Bryon - I'll keep her name on file in case the herbal approach does

not work, I'd like not to mix things up too much.

 

I am still waiting for the medical herbalist to get out to the horse, but

actually I think he may be doing well on the ayurvedic stuff.

 

The liver/heart tonic seems to give him a good baseline of feeling OK, and he

is now nearing a month on about 25g ashwaganda. This is classed as an

adaptogen, and may work in a similar manner to the way the siberian ginseng

formula works on the metabolism of these horses. Several folk have seen

insulin rise before reducing with that, and this could easily be because the

adrenals are stimulated - so cortisol rises at first too - we don't actually

know.

 

But, I had some blood drawn a couple of weeks ago, and my horses FT4 was up,

just into normal range, but his insulin and cortisol higher (when last year

at this time they fell when the FT4 rose).

 

Interestingly the horse went through a period of additional fatigue begining

just when the blood was taken, which I think could well have been such an

insulin rise. Now however, his energy is slowly rising again, without the

angst that the Ren Shen caused. The last couple of days he has definately

been bouncing with excess energy, getting quite hard to hold again, so I have

high hopes. If this continues I shall leave things as they are and take

another blood mid-january to reassess and decide whether to change over to a

chinese formula. Maybe my herbalist will simply want to augment or adjust the

programme he is on - he has written books on herbs of all kinds so i think he

is pretty flexible. It was he that recommended ashwaganda in the first place

because it can be used as a stand alone adaptogenic herb. I may not be using

enough yet either - hard to get dosage information.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , jackiejataylor@a... wrote:

 

> The liver/heart tonic seems to give him a good baseline of feeling

OK, and he

> is now nearing a month on about 25g ashwaganda. This is classed as

an

> adaptogen, and may work in a similar manner to the way the siberian

ginseng

> formula works on the metabolism of these horses.

 

Can you explain more about ashwaganda? It's in a supplement I'm taking

to assist the thryoid and I'd never heard of it before. (Though you

had mentioned it in a prior post, and I'd forgotten about that.)

 

sue

[Guest guest]

Ashwaganda (Withania Somnifera) is an ayurvedic herb called 'the Indian

ginseng' by some. Michael Tierra has an article about it on his website.

There are also plenty of papers on pubmed about it's action - it is very much

like a gentle version of ginseng I think, and has various anti-oxident,

immuno-modulating, and tonic effects. Also one paper showing it increased

thyroid function in mice, which I have never seen for ginseng.

 

Jackie