RE: DIET THERAPY

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more with your short disertation on dietary therapy

and along those guidelines, I have been looking for a copy of Arisal of the

Clear by Bob Flaws it is currently out of print. Does anyone have a copy I

could purchase. or maybe Gary has a copy he doesn't use. Thanks IRV

[Guest guest]

, Irvcmarcus@a... wrote:

> I couldn't agree more with your short disertation on dietary

therapy

> and along those guidelines, I have been looking for a copy of

Arisal of the

> Clear by Bob Flaws it is currently out of print. Does anyone have

a copy I

> could purchase. or maybe Gary has a copy he doesn't use. Thanks IRV

 

Irv

 

I think he's revising it based on his latest research. You might

want

to wait for the new edition. Or have have you heard it is out of

print

forever?

 

[Guest guest]

 

I can wait, but for how long? do you have any inside info on when the new

edition will be released? Really I'd like to get me hands on a copy of the

" current " book, it is great for patient education purposes. thanks Irv

[Guest guest]

Flaw's book, The Tao of Healthy Eating is the successor to The Arisal of

the Clear, combined with information from his other book, Prince Wen

Hui's Cook. It's been out for two years.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

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Plutarch

 

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info

[Guest guest]

Arisal of the Clear has had a name change to The Tao of Healty Eating.

ISBN0-936185-92-9. Book People out of the Bay area carries it if you have an

account or your local book store can get it for you.

 

Candis Packard

 

Irvcmarcus wrote:

 

> I couldn't agree more with your short disertation on dietary therapy

> and along those guidelines, I have been looking for a copy of Arisal of the

> Clear by Bob Flaws it is currently out of print. Does anyone have a copy I

> could purchase. or maybe Gary has a copy he doesn't use. Thanks IRV

>

> ------

> Make new friends, find the old at Classmates.com:

> http://click./1/7075/11/_/542111/_/964289938/

> ------

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have the revised edition -- or a revised edition -- it's been out a couple of years and it's called (I think) The Tao of Healthy Eating. The book is at my office so I'm not sure of the title.

 

Catherine

 

 

-

Irvcmarcus

Saturday, July 22, 2000 11:18 AM

Re: diet therapy

I couldn't agree more with your short disertation on dietary therapy and along those guidelines, I have been looking for a copy of Arisal of the Clear by Bob Flaws it is currently out of print. Does anyone have a copy I could purchase. or maybe Gary has a copy he doesn't use. Thanks IRVChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

This is a truly excellent discussion and makes me glad I can participate in this forum with thinking people. First of all, the points you make below, are well taken and well thought out. I follow a fairly disciplined diet of organic foods, myself, because I do not like processed foods nor do I believe they are healthy. I would never OK a high fat diet for anyone, per se, nor one replete with processed foods. But that is about as far as I go, due to personal experience. I will, undoubtedly, modify my beliefs and therapies as I continue in my practice.

 

Just a little background for perspective: My family, as are many of the families of the Central Rio Grande Valley and Southern Colorado, are Sefardic Jews ( Iberian Jews ) who entered the region in 1598 after fleeing, first the Spanish and then the Mexican, Inquisitions. They constitute the oldest European population in the United States.

 

They live forever. They have the lowest instance of gastrointestinal disorders ( including colon cancer, and the like ) in the country. They also have the lowest instance of heart disease among the general population. Remember, we are talking about Hispanics that did not emmigrate to the USA ( they were absorbed ) , but a population that predates the signing of the Declaration of Independence by almost 200 years. Recent Hispanic groups constitute an entirely different population.

 

According to research conducted by NM State Univerity, the paucity of these above-mentioned disorders is due precisely to the large quantity of chile they consume. I'm not talking about the tepid fare fare presented as "Mexican Food" throughout the USA, but real, hot, very hot, very "spicey" chile. The early settlers ate what the Pueblo Indians ate ( and still do ) - beans, squash, chile and meat. The diet of this person is an anathema to TCM diet therapy and should promote wholesale disease among its consumers - but it does not.

 

My grandmother lived by herself, in her own house, until she died at age 99. She ate nothing but greasy meat, very hot chile and her personal favorite, large quantities of store-bought chocolate candy, every day for her entire life. Her husband died at the age of 85 ( and he consumed the same diet ) and would have perhaps, lived longer had he not smoked two packs Lucky Strike cigarettes every day for over 70 years ! My father is 80 years old, consumes the same "bad" diet and can outwork any man, half his age, during cattle round-up at our ranch in Northern NM. I can produce hundreds of similar case histories and this is no exaggeration. So what, as a believer in TCM diet therapy, would you say to these people ? " Give up that bad diet of hot chile and greasy meat so your health will improve?"

 

Ida, who is in her 90's, and an extended family member, was asked why she had not stopped smoking as her doctors warned her to give it up or her health would deteriorate. She smoked another cigarette and said, " Si, pero todos estan muertos...." (Yeah, but they're all dead.....) .

 

I only mention these anecdotes to point out that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to any health issue and I see TCM diet therapy as a one-size-fits-all approach.

 

G. Cordova

Tiger Medicine

 

-

cha

Friday, July 21, 2000 10:09 PM

diet therapy

Gary wrote: Coffee is necessary for my health, but it is not for everyone. I base this on the blood-type diet theory. As blood-type A, coffee is more than medicinal, it is essential. For blood-type O it is a big no-no. I do not believe in Chinese Food or Diet Therapy ( yes I am a heretic ). Gary, First, I consider dietary therapy to be fundamental to the long term success of herbal therapy. Unlike acupuncture, which can be of immeasurable benefit, yet remains optional or substitutable, at least. Foods are also on a continuum with herbs and regularly constitute an overlapping topic in TCM texts and classics. And I agree that coffee, like all nonpoisonous substances, is good for some and not for others. I have used blood type therapy myself. Dietary advice is part of my scope of practice in Oregon and since I have a degree in biology and a couple of years of naturopathic school, I have studied and practiced this subject from perspectives other than TCM for 15 years. I also owned a multidisciplinary clinic for three years that included a naturopath who utilized blood type therapy as his foundation of dietary intervention. As a matter of course, I provided all clinic patients with blood type diet info and thus involved hundreds of patients in this therapy. I have several observations to make. Dietary intervention according to blood type seems to affect a symptoms, etc. However, I have also observed that if people continue to eat excessively sweet, spicy and greasy foods, their health does NOT improve, regardless if the only eat foods on their type list. But I'd like to add at the outset that I believe the reverse also is true. TCM dietary therapy is limited in its own right. And scientific ideas like blood type diet can be of importance just as the germ theory of disease often serves us well. Both my staff naturopath and Peter D'adamo are very clear about this. You still have to follow the basic rules of eating. The question is what constitutes such basic rules? I'd like to address your specific comments below. Blood-type food therapy works better although it is an incomplete paradigm. I have experimented upon myself and my patients with typical prescriptions to avoid cold foods, raw foods, spicy foods, greasy foods, ad nauseum. I felt no effects of this therapy upon myself nor did my patients. How many years have you been in practice? And am I correct that your practice has taken place in a warm dry environment for the most part (Arizona and NM)? Raw cold foods are certainly tolerated better in the hot dry climate, as would dairy (yin balancing yang in both cases). I think dairy and raw foods can very problematic in the northwest and my experience suggests this single change can have profound effects on patients health. There is also evidence mounting that many of the most potent and important disease preventing substances in food are more accessible when the food is cooked. For years, emphasis has focused on the substances destroyed by cooking, but lately research has focused on what cooking enhances. While raw foods are higher in vitamins than cooked foods, only a few vitamins are actually destroyed by gentle cooking methods. Yet the breakdown of cellulose by cooking vegetables renders the remaining nutrients far more assimilable. A well known example is lycopene from tomatoes, but this is true of all food compounds called flavonoids, which are turning out to be extremely valuable substances. Many raw food advocates point to the near total elimination of enzymes through cooking. While enzymes are well known to be essential to health, there is no evidence I now of that shows food enzymes to play a necessary role in health. When I asked Peter D'adamo about this, he referred me to the Pottenger studies on cats. Sorry, the fact that cats may thrive on raw milk, a food with easily accessible nutrients and no fiber, proves nothing to me about human needs. Nor does the fact that our ancestors obviously evolved in a raw foods environment in primeval africa. This is because much anthropological consensus now has it that the fire was under primate control before homo erectus evolved in modern homo sapiens (500,000 years ago). Thus, we have always had fire. In addition, dental evidence suggests that our control of fire gave us a serious adaptive advantage over our competitor primates. Evidence now suggests that earlier hominid primates succumbed often to dental caries and parasites caused by eating raw grains and other raw foods. D'adamo also directed me to Weston Price's famous study of dental development and diet. However, the details of this landmark ethnographic style study present people all over the world eating WHOLE foods diets. In no cases were the subjects living mainly on a RAW foods diet. As for spicy and greasy foods prohibition, these concepts are directly linked to herbal properties and can't be dismissed without also completely dismissing the value of herb qualities at the same time. First, it is herbs which give foods spice to begin with. So the same excessive spices are also medicinal in many cases, such as gan jiang, chuan jiao, rou gui, ding xiang, to name a few. These herbs warm the interior. They often aggravate flaring of ministerial fire and yin xu. they treat coldness. It does not seem reasonable to accept these herbal functions and then say there is no effect from eating foods with lots of these herbs. And while different constitutions have different needs and tolerances, it is a central tenet of yin fire theory that all people can be overstimulated by spice, because of its direct effect upon ministerial fire, leading to myriad disease and shortened life. As for greasy, this seems obvious. While the theories regarding fat in the diet shifts a lot, there are some general points of agreement. Fried foods provide fat which has become toxic; animals raised without exercise on corn diet and rendered animal protein produce fat that has pathological imbalances , causing the body to have inflammatory tendencies. Margarine and vegetable shortening cannot be used in normal biological process and just add fat tissue and also cause inflammation. Basically all polyunsaturated oils, pressed or extracted are rancid by the time they are purchased, unless they have been refrigerated in lightproof bottles or otherwise preserved. Rapeseed is a toxic plant, the source of canola. On the other hand, naturally raised meat, dairy, chicken, eggs etc, have got a bad rap. They are safe in moderation. But again, I must return to herbs to drive this home. If certain herbs are said to be greasy and this is a constant cause for concern, this must also be true of foods. Finally, does the spleen like damp. No. Are raw and greasy foods damp? Yes? This is tied to basic TCM theory. We can debate the clinical validity of TCM ideas, but if the spleen does not transform and transport fluids, the whole system falls apart for me. I abandoned it because it is really based on Chinese cultural mores. For example, cheese, yogurt and dairy were looked upon as very bad, not because they were truly bad for one, but because the hated Mongol invaders made it a part of their daily regimen. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. The example you provide is historically correct and TCM dietary texts do not prohibit dairy, but ascribe it properties like any other food. Zhu dan xi refers to the correct and incorrect use of milk in his works, for example. So while chinese popular culture has a problem with dairy for the reason you describe, I don't think there is evidence that this bias extended to medicine as a rule. And these "mores" do explain at all the more important examples you dismiss above. Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Gary,

I lived in New Mexico for seven years, and was privileged to meet many of this long-lived people in the small towns of the Sangre de Cristo mountains. Also, interestingly, I follow the customs of the Sephardic Jews, and my wife is a Sephardic Jew born in Tangier, Morocco. I investigated the history of N.M. Jews while I was there.

 

Another factor in the diet, Gary, was a lot of corn in the diet. The corn, especially non-hybrids such as blue corn, are high in minerals, proteins, and benefit heart and spleen. I saw a lot of vegetables in their diets, and the proportion of meat was quite small. From a Chinese point of view, the diet matches the environment, which also aids longevity (high altitude, dry, a lot of sun, fresh air and open space, agrarian lifestyle, etc.) While your friends may smoke, eat greasy meats and live to ripe years, they also probably grew up on subsistence diets (before WW II, that was what was available), were treated with herbal medicine, worked in the open, and had the stress of working the land, not the computer network. Other authors have noted the general benefits to health enjoyed by agrarian people, before the modern era with pesticides, water, air and food pollution and corporate economics. These people were lucky enough to have built up strong constitutions and have strong ancestry to escape the present epidemics sweeping the population of cancer, heart disease and stress-related autoimmune disorders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on 7/24/00 11:29 AM, tenzin at tenzin wrote:

 

This is a truly excellent discussion and makes me glad I can participate in this forum with thinking people. First of all, the points you make below, are well taken and well thought out. I follow a fairly disciplined diet of organic foods, myself, because I do not like processed foods nor do I believe they are healthy. I would never OK a high fat diet for anyone, per se, nor one replete with processed foods. But that is about as far as I go, due to personal experience. I will, undoubtedly, modify my beliefs and therapies as I continue in my practice.

 

Just a little background for perspective: My family, as are many of the families of the Central Rio Grande Valley and Southern Colorado, are Sefardic Jews ( Iberian Jews ) who entered the region in 1598 after fleeing, first the Spanish and then the Mexican, Inquisitions. They constitute the oldest European population in the United States.

 

They live forever. They have the lowest instance of gastrointestinal disorders ( including colon cancer, and the like ) in the country. They also have the lowest instance of heart disease among the general population. Remember, we are talking about Hispanics that did not emmigrate to the USA ( they were absorbed ) , but a population that predates the signing of the Declaration of Independence by almost 200 years. Recent Hispanic groups constitute an entirely different population.

 

According to research conducted by NM State Univerity, the paucity of these above-mentioned disorders is due precisely to the large quantity of chile they consume. I'm not talking about the tepid fare fare presented as " Mexican Food " throughout the USA, but real, hot, very hot, very " spicey " chile. The early settlers ate what the Pueblo Indians ate ( and still do ) - beans, squash, chile and meat. The diet of this person is an anathema to TCM diet therapy and should promote wholesale disease among its consumers - but it does not.

 

My grandmother lived by herself, in her own house, until she died at age 99. She ate nothing but greasy meat, very hot chile and her personal favorite, large quantities of store-bought chocolate candy, every day for her entire life. Her husband died at the age of 85 ( and he consumed the same diet ) and would have perhaps, lived longer had he not smoked two packs Lucky Strike cigarettes every day for over 70 years ! My father is 80 years old, consumes the same " bad " diet and can outwork any man, half his age, during cattle round-up at our ranch in Northern NM. I can produce hundreds of similar case histories and this is no exaggeration. So what, as a believer in TCM diet therapy, would you say to these people ? " Give up that bad diet of hot chile and greasy meat so your health will improve? "

 

Ida, who is in her 90's, and an extended family member, was asked why she had not stopped smoking as her doctors warned her to give it up or her health would deteriorate. She smoked another cigarette and said, " Si, pero todos estan muertos.... " (Yeah, but they're all dead.....) .

 

I only mention these anecdotes to point out that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to any health issue and I see TCM diet therapy as a one-size-fits-all approach.

[Guest guest]

My grandmother lived by herself, in her own house, until she died at age 99. She ate nothing but greasy meat, very hot chile and her personal favorite, large quantities of store-bought chocolate candy, every day for her entire life. Her husband died at the age of 85 ( and he consumed the same diet ) and would have perhaps, lived longer had he not smoked two packs Lucky Strike cigarettes every day for over 70 years ! My father is 80 years old, consumes the same "bad" diet and can outwork any man, half his age, during cattle round-up at our ranch in Northern NM. I can produce hundreds of similar case histories and this is no exaggeration. So what, as a believer in TCM diet therapy, would you say to these people ? " Give up that bad diet of hot chile and greasy meat so your health will improve?"

 

>>>this is even more true for Yemanite Jews

Alon

-

 

tenzin

Monday, July 24, 2000 11:29 AM

Re: diet therapy

 

This is a truly excellent discussion and makes me glad I can participate in this forum with thinking people. First of all, the points you make below, are well taken and well thought out. I follow a fairly disciplined diet of organic foods, myself, because I do not like processed foods nor do I believe they are healthy. I would never OK a high fat diet for anyone, per se, nor one replete with processed foods. But that is about as far as I go, due to personal experience. I will, undoubtedly, modify my beliefs and therapies as I continue in my practice.

 

Just a little background for perspective: My family, as are many of the families of the Central Rio Grande Valley and Southern Colorado, are Sefardic Jews ( Iberian Jews ) who entered the region in 1598 after fleeing, first the Spanish and then the Mexican, Inquisitions. They constitute the oldest European population in the United States.

 

They live forever. They have the lowest instance of gastrointestinal disorders ( including colon cancer, and the like ) in the country. They also have the lowest instance of heart disease among the general population. Remember, we are talking about Hispanics that did not emmigrate to the USA ( they were absorbed ) , but a population that predates the signing of the Declaration of Independence by almost 200 years. Recent Hispanic groups constitute an entirely different population.

 

According to research conducted by NM State Univerity, the paucity of these above-mentioned disorders is due precisely to the large quantity of chile they consume. I'm not talking about the tepid fare fare presented as "Mexican Food" throughout the USA, but real, hot, very hot, very "spicey" chile. The early settlers ate what the Pueblo Indians ate ( and still do ) - beans, squash, chile and meat. The diet of this person is an anathema to TCM diet therapy and should promote wholesale disease among its consumers - but it does not.

 

My grandmother lived by herself, in her own house, until she died at age 99. She ate nothing but greasy meat, very hot chile and her personal favorite, large quantities of store-bought chocolate candy, every day for her entire life. Her husband died at the age of 85 ( and he consumed the same diet ) and would have perhaps, lived longer had he not smoked two packs Lucky Strike cigarettes every day for over 70 years ! My father is 80 years old, consumes the same "bad" diet and can outwork any man, half his age, during cattle round-up at our ranch in Northern NM. I can produce hundreds of similar case histories and this is no exaggeration. So what, as a believer in TCM diet therapy, would you say to these people ? " Give up that bad diet of hot chile and greasy meat so your health will improve?"

 

Ida, who is in her 90's, and an extended family member, was asked why she had not stopped smoking as her doctors warned her to give it up or her health would deteriorate. She smoked another cigarette and said, " Si, pero todos estan muertos...." (Yeah, but they're all dead.....) .

 

I only mention these anecdotes to point out that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to any health issue and I see TCM diet therapy as a one-size-fits-all approach.

 

G. Cordova

Tiger Medicine

 

-

cha

Friday, July 21, 2000 10:09 PM

diet therapy

Gary wrote: Coffee is necessary for my health, but it is not for everyone. I base this on the blood-type diet theory. As blood-type A, coffee is more than medicinal, it is essential. For blood-type O it is a big no-no. I do not believe in Chinese Food or Diet Therapy ( yes I am a heretic ). Gary, First, I consider dietary therapy to be fundamental to the long term success of herbal therapy. Unlike acupuncture, which can be of immeasurable benefit, yet remains optional or substitutable, at least. Foods are also on a continuum with herbs and regularly constitute an overlapping topic in TCM texts and classics. And I agree that coffee, like all nonpoisonous substances, is good for some and not for others. I have used blood type therapy myself. Dietary advice is part of my scope of practice in Oregon and since I have a degree in biology and a couple of years of naturopathic school, I have studied and practiced this subject from perspectives other than TCM for 15 years. I also owned a multidisciplinary clinic for three years that included a naturopath who utilized blood type therapy as his foundation of dietary intervention. As a matter of course, I provided all clinic patients with blood type diet info and thus involved hundreds of patients in this therapy. I have several observations to make. Dietary intervention according to blood type seems to affect a symptoms, etc. However, I have also observed that if people continue to eat excessively sweet, spicy and greasy foods, their health does NOT improve, regardless if the only eat foods on their type list. But I'd like to add at the outset that I believe the reverse also is true. TCM dietary therapy is limited in its own right. And scientific ideas like blood type diet can be of importance just as the germ theory of disease often serves us well. Both my staff naturopath and Peter D'adamo are very clear about this. You still have to follow the basic rules of eating. The question is what constitutes such basic rules? I'd like to address your specific comments below. Blood-type food therapy works better although it is an incomplete paradigm. I have experimented upon myself and my patients with typical prescriptions to avoid cold foods, raw foods, spicy foods, greasy foods, ad nauseum. I felt no effects of this therapy upon myself nor did my patients. How many years have you been in practice? And am I correct that your practice has taken place in a warm dry environment for the most part (Arizona and NM)? Raw cold foods are certainly tolerated better in the hot dry climate, as would dairy (yin balancing yang in both cases). I think dairy and raw foods can very problematic in the northwest and my experience suggests this single change can have profound effects on patients health. There is also evidence mounting that many of the most potent and important disease preventing substances in food are more accessible when the food is cooked. For years, emphasis has focused on the substances destroyed by cooking, but lately research has focused on what cooking enhances. While raw foods are higher in vitamins than cooked foods, only a few vitamins are actually destroyed by gentle cooking methods. Yet the breakdown of cellulose by cooking vegetables renders the remaining nutrients far more assimilable. A well known example is lycopene from tomatoes, but this is true of all food compounds called flavonoids, which are turning out to be extremely valuable substances. Many raw food advocates point to the near total elimination of enzymes through cooking. While enzymes are well known to be essential to health, there is no evidence I now of that shows food enzymes to play a necessary role in health. When I asked Peter D'adamo about this, he referred me to the Pottenger studies on cats. Sorry, the fact that cats may thrive on raw milk, a food with easily accessible nutrients and no fiber, proves nothing to me about human needs. Nor does the fact that our ancestors obviously evolved in a raw foods environment in primeval africa. This is because much anthropological consensus now has it that the fire was under primate control before homo erectus evolved in modern homo sapiens (500,000 years ago). Thus, we have always had fire. In addition, dental evidence suggests that our control of fire gave us a serious adaptive advantage over our competitor primates. Evidence now suggests that earlier hominid primates succumbed often to dental caries and parasites caused by eating raw grains and other raw foods. D'adamo also directed me to Weston Price's famous study of dental development and diet. However, the details of this landmark ethnographic style study present people all over the world eating WHOLE foods diets. In no cases were the subjects living mainly on a RAW foods diet. As for spicy and greasy foods prohibition, these concepts are directly linked to herbal properties and can't be dismissed without also completely dismissing the value of herb qualities at the same time. First, it is herbs which give foods spice to begin with. So the same excessive spices are also medicinal in many cases, such as gan jiang, chuan jiao, rou gui, ding xiang, to name a few. These herbs warm the interior. They often aggravate flaring of ministerial fire and yin xu. they treat coldness. It does not seem reasonable to accept these herbal functions and then say there is no effect from eating foods with lots of these herbs. And while different constitutions have different needs and tolerances, it is a central tenet of yin fire theory that all people can be overstimulated by spice, because of its direct effect upon ministerial fire, leading to myriad disease and shortened life. As for greasy, this seems obvious. While the theories regarding fat in the diet shifts a lot, there are some general points of agreement. Fried foods provide fat which has become toxic; animals raised without exercise on corn diet and rendered animal protein produce fat that has pathological imbalances , causing the body to have inflammatory tendencies. Margarine and vegetable shortening cannot be used in normal biological process and just add fat tissue and also cause inflammation. Basically all polyunsaturated oils, pressed or extracted are rancid by the time they are purchased, unless they have been refrigerated in lightproof bottles or otherwise preserved. Rapeseed is a toxic plant, the source of canola. On the other hand, naturally raised meat, dairy, chicken, eggs etc, have got a bad rap. They are safe in moderation. But again, I must return to herbs to drive this home. If certain herbs are said to be greasy and this is a constant cause for concern, this must also be true of foods. Finally, does the spleen like damp. No. Are raw and greasy foods damp? Yes? This is tied to basic TCM theory. We can debate the clinical validity of TCM ideas, but if the spleen does not transform and transport fluids, the whole system falls apart for me. I abandoned it because it is really based on Chinese cultural mores. For example, cheese, yogurt and dairy were looked upon as very bad, not because they were truly bad for one, but because the hated Mongol invaders made it a part of their daily regimen. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. The example you provide is historically correct and TCM dietary texts do not prohibit dairy, but ascribe it properties like any other food. Zhu dan xi refers to the correct and incorrect use of milk in his works, for example. So while chinese popular culture has a problem with dairy for the reason you describe, I don't think there is evidence that this bias extended to medicine as a rule. And these "mores" do explain at all the more important examples you dismiss above. Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

While your friends may smoke, eat greasy meats and live to ripe years, they also probably grew up on subsistence diets (before WW II, that was what was available), were treated with herbal medicine, worked in the open, and had the stress of working the land, not the computer network. Other authors have noted the general benefits to health enjoyed by agrarian people, before the modern era with pesticides, water, air and food pollution and corporate economics. These people were lucky! enough to have built up strong constitutions and have strong ancestry to escape the present epidemics sweeping the population of cancer, heart disease and stress-related autoimmune disorders.>>>>Z've this is true for many MODERN Yemenites for example.

alon-

 

 

Monday, July 24, 2000 12:10 PM

Re: diet therapy

Gary, I lived in New Mexico for seven years, and was privileged to meet many of this long-lived people in the small towns of the Sangre de Cristo mountains. Also, interestingly, I follow the customs of the Sephardic Jews, and my wife is a Sephardic Jew born in Tangier, Morocco. I investigated the history of N.M. Jews while I was there. Another factor in the diet, Gary, was a lot of corn in the diet. The corn, especially non-hybrids such as blue corn, are high in minerals, proteins, and benefit heart and spleen. I saw a lot of vegetables in their diets, and the proportion of meat was quite small. From a Chinese point of view, the diet matches the environment, which also aids longevity (high altitude, dry, a lot of sun, fresh air and open space, agrarian lifestyle, etc.) While your friends may smoke, eat greasy meats and live to ripe years, they also probably grew up on subsistence diets (before WW II, that was what was available), were treated with herbal medicine, worked in the open, and had the stress of working the land, not the computer network. Other authors have noted the general benefits to health enjoyed by agrarian people, before the modern era with pesticides, water, air and food pollution and corporate economics. These people were lucky! enough to have built up strong constitutions and have strong ancestry to escape the present epidemics sweeping the population of cancer, heart disease and stress-related autoimmune disorders. on 7/24/00 11:29 AM, tenzin at tenzin wrote:

This is a truly excellent discussion and makes me glad I can participate in this forum with thinking people. First of all, the points you make below, are well taken and well thought out. I follow a fairly disciplined diet of organic foods, myself, because I do not like processed foods nor do I believe they are healthy. I would never OK a high fat diet for anyone, per se, nor one replete with processed foods. But that is about as far as I go, due to personal experience. I will, undoubtedly, modify my beliefs and therapies as I continue in my practice.Just a little background for perspective: My family, as are many of the families of the Central Rio Grande Valley and Southern Colorado, are Sefardic Jews ( Iberian Jews ) who entered the region in 1598 after fleeing, first the Spanish and then the Mexican, Inquisitions. They constitute the oldest European population in the United States. They live forever. They have the lowest instance of gastrointestinal disorders ( including colon cancer, and the like ) in the country. They also have the lowest instance of heart disease among the general population. Remember, we are talking about Hispanics that did not emmigrate to the USA ( they were absorbed ) , but a population that predates the signing of the Declaration of Independence by almost 200 years. Recent Hispanic groups constitute an entirely different population. According to research conducted by NM State Univerity, the paucity of these above-mentioned disorders is due precisely to the large quantity of chile they consume. I'm not talking about the tepid fare fare presented as "Mexican Food" throughout the USA, but real, hot, very hot, very "spicey" chile. The early settlers ate what the Pueblo Indians ate ( and still do ) - beans, squash, chile and meat. The diet of this person is an anathema to TCM diet therapy and should promote wholesale disease among its consumers - but it does not. My grandmother lived by herself, in her own house, until she died at age 99. She ate nothing but greasy meat, very hot chile and her personal favorite, large quantities of store-bought chocolate candy, every day for her entire life. Her husband died at the age of 85 ( and he consumed the same diet ) and would have perhaps, lived longer had he not smoked two packs Lucky Strike cigarettes every day for over 70 years ! My father is 80 years old, consumes the same "bad" diet and can outwork any man, half his age, during cattle round-up at our ranch in Northern NM. I can produce hundreds of similar case histories and this is no exaggeration. So what, as a believer in TCM diet therapy, would you say to these people ? " Give up that bad diet of hot chile and greasy meat so your health will improve?" Ida, who is in her 90's, and an extended family member, was asked why she had not stopped smoking as her doctors warned her to give it up or her health would deteriorate. She smoked another cigarette and said, " Si, pero todos estan muertos...." (Yeah, but they're all dead.....) .I only mention these anecdotes to point out that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to any health issue and I see TCM diet therapy as a one-size-fits-all approach. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

on 7/24/00 4:26 PM, alonmarcus at alonmarcus wrote:

 

My studies and experience, Alon, indicate that Yemenite Jews, like Southwestern Hispanics and Indians, ate much less meat percentage-wise in the past than now, and of much better quality (farm-raised or wild, organic feed, etc.), along with much less sugar and white flour products. Meat simply was not available in quantity, and sugar and refined foods were rare before the 1950's. In fact, a Dr. Cohen did a study with Yemenite Jews, comparing the diabetic rate (less than 3-5%) in Yemen with that of Yemenites who had emigrated to Israel 10 years later, where the diabetic rate was 35%. The main difference was the refined diet of Israelis, including a higher sugar ratio (over 150 lbs. per year) than America, whereas in Yemen, the sugar consumption was something to the order of one pound per year. Similar studies have been done with native American tribes, such as the Pima and Papago in the Southwestern U.S., where the diabetic rate also is about 35%, and obesity rates very high as well.

 

While some old-timers may retain the constitutional strength of their youth, this is certainly not the case of the younger generations. Also, some of the 'evidence' given below may well be anecdotal. Until recently, a local, in season diet, without imported foods or refrigeration, demanded a relatively healthy diet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My grandmother lived by herself, in her own house, until she died at age 99. She ate nothing but greasy meat, very hot chile and her personal favorite, large quantities of store-bought chocolate candy, every day for her entire life. Her husband died at the age of 85 ( and he consumed the same diet ) and would have perhaps, lived longer had he not smoked two packs Lucky Strike cigarettes every day for over 70 years ! My father is 80 years old, consumes the same " bad " diet and can outwork any man, half his age, during cattle round-up at our ranch in Northern NM. I can produce hundreds of similar case histories and this is no exaggeration. So what, as a believer in TCM diet therapy, would you say to these people ? " Give up that bad diet of hot chile and greasy meat so your health will improve? "

 

>>>this is even more true for Yemanite Jews

Alon

[Guest guest]

DIET THERAPY:

 

The spleen is connected to the pancreas and stomach.

It is said that sweet foods tonify the spleen but diabetics are not

supposed to take sweet foods. Can anyone explain???

Also, what are the sweet foods that can be consumed in the daily diet

by a diabetic who has spleen qi deficiency?

 

Salty foods can tonify the kidney. However western doctors advise

patients who have hypertension to refrain from salt. Can anyone

explain please?

Also, what salty foods are good for a hypertensive patient with

kidney energy deficiency?

 

Thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Jerry

[Guest guest]

> The spleen is connected to the pancreas and stomach.

> It is said that sweet foods tonify the spleen but diabetics are not

> supposed to take sweet foods. Can anyone explain???

> Also, what are the sweet foods that can be consumed in the daily

diet

> by a diabetic who has spleen qi deficiency?

 

An excess of a flavor can be as harmful as a deficiency of a

particular flavor. What is excess or deficiency will vary according

to the individual.

 

" Sweetness can boost or strengthen the spleen, but in large amounts,

it can also congest the center. Overeating sweet foods and drinks

is, therefore, also able to damage the spleen. Because the spleen is

no longer able to move and transport body fluids properly, these

gather and accumulate and transform into dampness and phlegm which

then go on to obstruct and stagnate the flow of the qi. Because the

spleen is the root of qi and blood engenderment and transformation,

both the qi and the blood become vacuous and debilitated. Spleen

vacuity due to damage by overeating sweets manifests as abdominal

distention after meals, fatigue, lack of strength, somnolence, bodily

obesity, and possible lower limb swelling and edema. " (Lynn M.

Kuchinski, Controlling Diabetes Naturally with , p.

38.) (My note: " Vacuous " is the term some TCM writers use instead

of " deficient " .)

 

People in Western countries, in particular the U.S. are prone to

Spleen weakness (and even diabetes) because so much sugar is added to

so many different foods. For example, many canned soups will have

sugar as an added product.

 

Kuchinski advises that sweetness be obtained from the natural

sweetness in most " grains, vegetables, and meats " instead

of " overeating sweets or eating intensely sweet foods " . (p. 39.)

Fatty, greasy foods also are contraindicated for diabetes. Dairy is

not a good idea as dairy tends to be extremely Damp-engendering, and

Dampness damages the Spleen. I find it interesting that some Western

researchers who have no knowledge of TCM are looking at the role of

milk in the development of diabetes in some diabetics.

 

> Salty foods can tonify the kidney. However western doctors advise

> patients who have hypertension to refrain from salt. Can anyone

> explain please?

> Also, what salty foods are good for a hypertensive patient with

> kidney energy deficiency?

 

Hypertension is a Western-defined condition. Several different TCM

patterns can underlie high blood pressure. Depending on what the

underlying TCM pattern imbalance is, salt may or may not be

restricted.

 

Again, the problem of Westerners going to extremes plays a role in

this too. There can be a big difference between obtaining the salty

taste from certain seafoods and barley and obtaining it from a bag of

potato chips.

 

Complicating things is that the " taste " of a food may be different

from its actual flavor. " The 'taste' of a food or herb is not always

related to its actual flavour: for instance, lamb is classified

as 'bitter', and so is apple. The 'taste' of a food or herb is

therefore more like its intrinsic quality, rather than its actual

flavour, although in most cases the two will coincide. " (Giovanni

Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 33.)

 

I'll be posting more on tastes.

 

The Chinese idea of a balanced diet is one that contains all 5 tastes.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

" jerryacu " <jerryacu wrote:

 

> DIET THERAPY:

>

> The spleen is connected to the pancreas and stomach.

> It is said that sweet foods tonify the spleen but

> diabetics are not

> supposed to take sweet foods. Can anyone explain???

> Also, what are the sweet foods that can be consumed

> in the daily diet

> by a diabetic who has spleen qi deficiency?

>

> Salty foods can tonify the kidney. However western

> doctors advise

> patients who have hypertension to refrain from salt.

> Can anyone

> explain please?

> Also, what salty foods are good for a hypertensive

> patient with kidney energy deficiency?

 

Foods are naturally sweet or salty (or sour, bitter or

pungent). This advise does not necessarily mean using

salt or sugar. Sweet foods include fruits, of course,

but also whole grains, some vegetables, cinnamon, some

beans (legumes), along with many others. Salty foods

include kelp or seaweed, abalone and other seafood. A

couple of books which may help you sort it all out are

Henry Lu's Chinese System of Food Cures and Healing

with Whole Foods by Paul Pitchford.

 

BTW, though sweet foods may tonify Spleen, too much

sweet can weaken it, therefore you would not use them

to cure weak Spleen. Instead, using the 5 element

theory, one could use foods that would tonify Heart

energy which nourishes Spleen. And that's *very*

simplistic, so don't take it as gospel. Do some

studying and asking more questions.

 

sue

 

 

 

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