Kidney deficiency

August 2, 2003

--- vivianne_valenzuela

<vivianne_valenzuela wrote

> this was a condition that could not be healed

> completely.

He can't cure you completely.

> so far, so my question is: with all these

> treatments plus a balanced

> diet, can my problem be cured at ALL?

Yes.

> Have you known of any similar

> cases that have been successful and needed no more

> acupuncture on a

> regular basis?

All the time in my clinic.

> Another things, is shenyinxu the same

> thing as kidneys' deficiency?

Kidney yin deficiency.

Bye,

Hugo

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August 3, 2003

> However, now I'm attending another doctor who studied Traditional

> , and gave me a chinese diagnostic: Yin

deficiency,

> deficiency in kidneys and spleen and Re. The doctor told me that

she

> needed to find the root of the problem and that the problem in the

> adrenal glands is being caused by the kidneys and spleen. Having

> said this, she made me a list of food that I should include in my

> diet.

The functions of the adrenal glands fall under the Kidneys in TCM.

TCM Organs are not equivalent to the anatomical organs they are named

after. TCM Organs are collections of functions. This is why many

writers will capitalize the names of TCM Organs - Kidneys, Liver,

Spleen, etc. It lets readers know that the TCM Organ is being

refered to and not the anatomical organ. The TCM concept of the

Spleen includes many of the functions of the pancreas.

I don't know if a cure is possible in your case (I'm not a clinical

practitioner, just someone who got interested in TCM because of the

dramatic improvement I got with some very long-standing health

problems.) BUT, a control definitely is possible. I think you're

asking how much longer will you have to keep seeing the TCM healer on

a regular basis. I don't know.

Kidney imbalances can take a long time to correct if they have been

going on for a long time. In my own case, the improvements I got

were so dramatic that I started to learn everything I could about

TCM, and got to the point where I can concoct herbal formulas and

figure out acupressure points to use to help myself. I'm not cured,

but I can do a lot of things I thought were lost to me forever. In

my case I was severely sick for over 20 years before I discovered

TCM. The longer imbalances have gone on, the longer it takes to

treat them. The severe illness (CFIDS - Chronic Fatigue Immune

Dysfunction Syndrome) had been going on for over 20 years, but there

are indications that I had a tendency to Kidney Yang Deficiency even

as a child. If I had known back then what I know now I would have

taken certain lifestyle steps that would have prevented certain

problems.

The Western medical paradigm of a " magic bullet " that is going to

cure individuals has done a lot of damage. You'll always need to be

careful about your diet and about getting enough rest and appropriate

exercise. So will everyone else. The proper diet for you will

change over time as imbalances are corrected. Acupuncture/

acupressure points and herbal remedies also will change as imbalances

are corrected. It's understood in TCM that the clinical picture will

change over time. This is why TCM healers see clients for follow-up

more frequently than Western allopathic healers do.

I assume your diagnosis is Kidney Yin Deficiency. The Kidneys supply

Yin and Yang to the rest of the body. Yin cools, calms, and

moistens; Yang warms, activates, and dries. Whenever a person is

Kidney Yin Deficient, the person also certainly is Kidney Yang

Deficient too (though to a lesser extent). Whenever a person is

Kidney Yang Deficient, the person almost certainly is Kidney Yin

Deficient too (though to a lesser degree). Sometimes the differences

will be so great that the symptoms and signs of the other will be

completely masked.

As the more obvious imbalance is corrected, the signs and symptoms of

the other may start to appear. Your healer will make the necessary

adjustments. As you learn more about TCM, you'll be able to make

some of them. Like reducing the percentage of Yin tonic foods in the

diet and including more Yang tonic foods. Back in the days when I was

very sick, I needed several cups a day of ginger tea to warm up.

These days, I rarely require ginger tea in the summer, and even in

the winter I no longer require it every day. What was correct for me

back then is no longer correct today. There has been a lot of

improvement as imbalances are corrected.

I assume that your allopathic doctor has checked you for

pheochromocytoma because of the elevated DHEA-S level. Also,

Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome.

One of the things that amazes me is how often adrenal (and some other

endocrine disorders) show up in people who have Kidney imbalance.

Very often Western doctors will suspect that something is somehow

related to the adrenal glands, but it doesn't fit the Western model.

In my own case doctors have suspected adrenal problems, but the tests

came back negative, and they were at a loss as to what to do next.

Their training and instincts were right. The symptoms and signs did

point to adrenal problems, but the current Western knowledge of the

adrenals lacks a lot. The TCM knowledge of the Kidneys adds to the

picture considerably. You may want to researach Kidneys as well as

Yin in the message base.

Please share the list of recommended foods that the healer gave you

as there are readers on here who need the information. I'm assuming

that these are Kidney Yin tonic foods and foods to strengthen the

Spleen.

BTW, the Spleen hates Dampness and is damaged by it.

Victoria

August 3, 2003

> Their training and instincts were right. The symptoms and signs did

> point to adrenal problems, but the current Western knowledge of the

> adrenals lacks a lot. The TCM knowledge of the Kidneys adds to the

> picture considerably. You may want to researach Kidneys as well as

> Yin in the message base.

I do wish someone could recommend some good interpretive texts that

reference to WM on this subject - even Chinese papers on Pubmed appear to

contradict one another, and I have found it almost impossible to find data.

I think it a hugely important area - a lot of modern diseases would be

defined as kd deficiencies, partuclarly yin, and yet there is still a need

to define kidney yin, yang and qi in western terms IMO (particularly for

animals with whom we are more reliant on lab data). I am sure there is more

written about it in chinese somewhere - the Chinese seem to be doing a lot

of research.

Jackie

August 3, 2003

In a message dated 8/3/03 8:32:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

jackie writes:

> I think it a hugely important area - a lot of modern diseases would be

> defined as kd deficiencies, partuclarly yin, and yet there is still a need

> to define kidney yin, yang and qi in western terms

I;m not sure it can be done, Chinese medicine we treat patterns NOT diseases.

See below

Amenorrhea with patterns in Chinese medicine, Vacuity of Liver and Kidney,

Depletion of Yin and Dryness of Blood, Obstruction by Phlegm-Dampness, Vacuity

of Qi and Blood, Stagnation of Qi and Stasis of Blood.

Arthritis with patterns in ; Wind Cold Damp, Wind Damp Heat,

Qi & Blood Dual Vacuity, Phlegm & Stasis, Liver Blood-Kidney Yin & Yang

Vacuity with Phlegm & Stasis

Here we have amenorrhea and arthritis nothing in common in western medicine

but in chinese patterns they could both have a Kidney Yin Vacuity.

This could go on for 100,000s of items. And still not get what you were

asking.

Stan

August 3, 2003

> I do wish someone could recommend some good interpretive texts that

> reference to WM on this subject - even Chinese papers on Pubmed

appear to

> contradict one another, and I have found it almost impossible to

find data.

Maybe someone will. There is a lot of modern and old Chinese medical

info that hasn't been translated yet.

>

> I think it a hugely important area - a lot of modern diseases would

be

> defined as kd deficiencies, partuclarly yin, and yet there is still

a need

> to define kidney yin, yang and qi in western terms IMO

(particularly for

> animals with whom we are more reliant on lab data). I am sure there

is more

> written about it in chinese somewhere - the Chinese seem to be

doing a lot

> of research.

For many years there has been a debate in Chinese medicine over which

has the greatest impact on health, the Kidneys or the Spleen. My own

opinion is that they are both critical. The Kidneys supply the Yang

and Yin to the rest of the body. If the Kidneys don't have enough

Yang and Yin to supply to the rest of the body, one or more or all

other Organs are going to become Yang or Yin Deficient. The Spleen

is responsible for extracting the Qi from food and carrying it to the

Lungs where it blends with the Qi from air to form the body's Qi. If

the Spleen is weak, one or more or all other Organs are going to lack

enough Qi.

The Spleen plays a major role in the formation of Blood. The Kidneys

also play a role. If the Spleen is weak (and in some cases if the

Kidneys are weak), the person eventually is going to be Blood

Deficient. And this can feed back into any Yang and Yin problems as

the Blood plays a role in helping to keep Yin and Yang in proper

balance.

It's been known for some time that modern American dietary habits and

lifestyle are hard on the Spleen. They also are hard on the Kidneys.

I too think a lot of modern medical conditions (like CFIDS) as well

as historical medical conditions which have gotten more prevalent

(like diabetes) have Roots of Spleen and/or Kidney imbalances.

Something else that can damage the Spleen in addition to Dampness is

overwork. It's important to get enough rest to keep the Spleen

healthy. Eating on the run or when under stress will weaken the

Spleen. Also eating at irregular hours. Diets with too much fats

(or dairy or wheat which are Damp-engendering) can hurt the Spleen.

But too little fat, calories, and protein can damage it too -

particularly in its Blood-making role. Fad diets and excessive

dieting take a toll on many Americans. Excessive worrying,

obsessing, and studying will damage the Spleen.

The Kidneys - in particular the Kidney Yang - are especially

vulnerable to Cold. But the Spleen also is vulnerable to Cold.

Victoria

August 3, 2003

> I;m not sure it can be done, Chinese medicine we treat patterns NOT

diseases.

For sure, I understand, but there seem to be some diseases which have a

narrower range of possible syndromes in TCM, such as Cushings disease which

it seems is only ever Kd yin deficiency and liver heat (though not the only

outcome of that pattern of course).

And although western medicine may not be able to define 'kidney qi', it

could at least define the bio-medical responses treatment elicits, that's a

start. There are many such papers already out there - Chinese doctors seem

to know a lot about what they are doing in medical terms when they use TCM,

and are keen to define it - I'll copy some of the papers I have found so

far.

And I am looking at it all ways round - can medical data help me define

syndromes better, especially when there is a lack of TCM evidence (as from

an animal)?. Can TCM syndromes help me understand the implications of

medical data that is abnormal, but describes no know WM disease?

I have learned an awful lot by searching out WM data on TCM syndromes -

confirmations of theories I had considering symptoms when WM did not even

know what to measure. For example:

Kidney/ yin deficiency

- hyperinsulin, hyperandrogen

- lipid metabolism disorder and hypertension

- raised ACTH and cortisol

- chronic liver inflammation

- Gastrointestinal mucosa thin, submucosal edema evident

and:

high levels of cAMP

relatively low levels of cGMP

normal to high levels of adrenocortical hormone

relatively high levels of epinephrine & norepinephrine

low levels of electrolyte

over active sympathetic nervous system

under active parasympathetic nervous system

retaining sodium and expelling potassium

acid balance

Liver heat of various kinds:

- higher levels of prostaglandin F2 alpha (PGF2 alpha) and

arginine vasopressin (AVP)

{Vasopressin = posterior pituitary, anti-diuretic hormone, hypertensive -

blood vessel contraction}

- raised norepinephrine (NE) and epinephrine

- lower L-ENK, ANP and gastrin

- higher AVP = emotional modulatory abnormality of the brain

- higher cardiac output

- raised amplitude of electrogastrogram

- intestinal styrenated phenol (SP) and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide

(VIP) - levels raised in ulcerative colitis lowered by treatment for Lv Qi

Stag

This tells me a lot about what functions 'Liver' and 'Kidney' include, and I

desperately needed that information.

But I need more - now I have come up against a knowledge barrier in TCM, I

cannot find an answer to the question " Why can my kd yin deficient horse not

take kd yin tonics? " If I could get enough WM data on precisely what defined

kd yin deficiency and tonification, I may be able to understand the problem,

and find a solution. I have a theory, but I cannot confirm it because of

lack of data.

I understand the altruistic debates about the ramifications and limitations

of comparisons between TCM and WM, but out here where the rubber hits the

road, IMO sometimes there is a need for ALL the knowledge and understand man

has acquired to be used in concert.

Jackie

August 3, 2003

> I;m not sure it can be done, Chinese medicine we treat patterns NOT

diseases.

I think it can be done, but I never said it would be easy.(grin) It

will take a thorough understanding of TCM and a good understanding of

Western medicine. The Chinese are in a position to do this.

> See below

> Amenorrhea with patterns in Chinese medicine, Vacuity of Liver and

Kidney,

> Depletion of Yin and Dryness of Blood, Obstruction by Phlegm-

Dampness, Vacuity

> of Qi and Blood, Stagnation of Qi and Stasis of Blood.

>

> Arthritis with patterns in ; Wind Cold Damp, Wind

Damp Heat,

> Qi & Blood Dual Vacuity, Phlegm & Stasis, Liver Blood-Kidney Yin &

Yang

> Vacuity with Phlegm & Stasis

>

> Here we have amenorrhea and arthritis nothing in common in western

medicine

> but in chinese patterns they could both have a Kidney Yin Vacuity.

> This could go on for 100,000s of items. And still not get what you

were

> asking.

For those new to TCM, what he has done is to list possible Roots/

patterns (underlying TCM imbalances) for amenorrhea and for

arthritis. The possible TCM patterns underlying any Western-defined

medical disorder can be quite varied. For example, asthma can have

one or more of several TCM imbalances underlying it. This is why

what helps one asthmatic may do nothing for a second and may even

make a third sicker. The TCM imbalances are different, and what gets

treated in TCM are TCM imbalances. What helps an asthmatic with Heat

in the Lungs could make an asthmatic with Kidneys Refusing to Receive

Qi sicker.

There is a saying in TCM: Same disease, different treatments;

different diseases, same treatment. In the first case, the

underlying TCM imbalances are different. Like in the asthma example

above. In the second case, even though the disease is different, the

underlying TCM imbalance is the same. (This can be very confusing to

those new to TCM, but after a while it will make sense.)

Back to the example of amenorrhea and arthritis. Not all cases of

amenorrhea are the same. Neither are all cases of arthritis. The

ones that have an underlying Kidney imbalance are going to show signs

and symptoms of Kidney imbalance. For example, problems with

urination, changes in sex drive, sore back, sore knees, problems with

teeth, problems with the ears and hearing, etc. In the case of a

person with arthritis who has an underlying Liver Blood-Kidney Yin &

Yang Vacuity with Phlegm & Stasis pattern, the periods of worst pain

may also coincide with the person having excessive urination. In

cases of asthma with an underlying pattern of Kidneys Refusing to

Receive Qi (a variation of Kidney Yang Deficiency), you may see the

periods when the breathing is the worst coinciding with the person

having to make a lot of trips to the bathroom. (Voice of experience.)

You won't see that in cases of arthritis or asthma where there is not

an underlying Kidney Yang Deficiency.

Why does a particular TCM pattern - say Kidney Deficiency - manifest

as amenorrhea in one person and as arthritis in another? Differences

in inherited and acquired weaknesses. Inherited weaknesses and

tendencies have to do with inherited differences. Examples of

acquired weaknesses includes things like someone being weakened by

malnutrition, surgery, accidents. A person who has broken a bone may

only experience arthritis in that particular area of the body.

Someone else who has worked with his hands a lot may experience the

arthritis primarily in the hands. Someone who is obese may

experience the arthritis primarily in the knees. Men don't get

amenorrhea, only women. (Differences in genetics.)

Often, the longer an imbalance goes on without being treated, the

more ways it will manifest. For example, a woman who is Yin

Deficient and who also has amenorrhea may also develop arthritis. For

those new to TCM, this is why TCM healers put an emphasis on

identifying and treating the Root instead of merely treating

symptoms. If only symptoms are treated, and the Root is left

untreated, the Root can manifest eventually as a another medical

condition.

As far as being able to correlate lab results with specific TCM

imbalances, this may be possible in some cases though not in others.

But the Western way of looking at lab results will have to change.

For example, if you look at CFIDS, there is a wide variation in

symptoms. Some PWCs have below normal body temperatures whereas

others may run a constant low grade fever. Some have elevated white

blood cells counts while others have below normal white blood cell

counts. Some have elevated levels of cortisol whereas others have

below normal levels. Some gain weight while others lose weight. Some

want to sleep all the time while others have insomnia. Some have

trouble warming up and feel cold a lot whereas others feel hot all

the time. What defines CFIDS are not particular lab values but the

fact that specific things will tend to be abnormal. BTW, Kidney

imbalance is one of the things that is seem in a lot of people with

CFIDS. The PWCs who tend to Kidney Yin Deficiency are the ones who

tend to run the low grade fevers (though not in all cases), have

insomnia, feel too hot, and lose weight. The ones in which Yang

Deficiency predominates are the ones who tend to have the below

normal body temperatures, feel cold, want to sleep all the time, and

gain weight. Both groups tend to have back pain. (Back pain is a

general Kidney imbalance symptom. It doesn't define a particular

Kidney imbalance. It tends to be present whenever three is any type

of Kidney Deficiency.)

Victoria

August 4, 2003

> And I am looking at it all ways round - can medical data help me

define

> syndromes better, especially when there is a lack of TCM evidence

(as from

> an animal)?. Can TCM syndromes help me understand the implications

of

> medical data that is abnormal, but describes no know WM disease?

It happens all the time. CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction

Syndrome) is but one example. For new readers I want to point out

that I developed CFIDS back in the early 1970's. This was 10 years

before the outbreak in Incline Village, Nevada (US) first began to

bring what would be known as CFIDS to the attention of the medical

community and the public. I know all about abnormal lab results that

don't fit any defined Western medical condition. Also about

contradictory test results, confusing symptoms, etc. More than one

doctor told me that things just didn't make sense.

One of the things that most impressed me about besides the

dramatic improvements - was the fact that so much of what I was

suffering was just plain old, " garden variety " Kidney Yang

Deficiency. Western medicine was saying, " This is confusing; this

doesn't make sense " , and TCM said, " That's just Kidney Yang

Deficiency. Nothing mysterious. We've known about it for

centuries. " So many of my symptoms were spelled out under Kidney

Yang Deficiency.

I want to caution readers that CFIDS is not equivalent to Kidney Yang

Deficiency. Some PWCs are predominately Kidney-Yin Deficient, and

their symptoms (as well as what they need) are very different from

mine. And, there was and is more going on than Kidney Deficiency in

CFIDS. I believe it is Bob Flaws who has found that the 4 Organs

most affected in people who have Fibromyalgia Syndrome (what some

people believe is CFIDS under a different name) are the Kidneys, the

Liver, the Spleen, and the Heart. (This doesn't mean that other

Organs aren't affected too, just that these 4 are standouts in large

numbers of people with FMS.)

I also want to remind readers that any time a person is Kidney Yang

Deficient, the person almost certainly is Kidney Yin Deficient too

though to a lesser extent. And vice versa. Yang and Yin are not

constant. Not in sick people and not even in well people. They wax

and wane, one giving way to the other. There were times in my

illness that Kidney Yin Deficiency symptoms predominated. It didn't

happen very often, but I can remember one time in particular (after

the 2nd major flare-up) that the predominate symptoms were those of

Kidney Yin Deficiency instead of Kidney Yang Deficiency. I was still

Kidney Yang Deficient, but for a time the Kidney Yin Deficiency was

worse than the Kidney Yang Deficiency, and the Yin Deficiency

symptoms predominated.

The third thing that really impressed me after the dramatic

improvements and so many of my symptoms being spelled out under

Kidney Yang Deficiency was that things that would have helped were

available in the spice section of the supermarket if only I had

known. (I'm talking in particular about the use of ginger tea to

warm me up. One of the milestones for me was when after several

months of TCM treatment and a lot of cups of ginger tea, I could feel

warmth when I touched my face. The ginger started working right away

to improve things. First I no longer was requiring several hot baths

a day to warm up. At first I experienced a gradual reduction in the

number of hot baths I had to take to warm up. It took a few months

for me to improve to the point where I could feel warmth in my skin.

Kidney Yang Deficiency can take a long time to correct. Especially

when it has been going on for years and decades.)

> Kidney/ yin deficiency

> - hyperinsulin, hyperandrogen

> - lipid metabolism disorder and hypertension

> - raised ACTH and cortisol

> - chronic liver inflammation

> - Gastrointestinal mucosa thin, submucosal edema evident

> and:

> high levels of cAMP

> relatively low levels of cGMP

> normal to high levels of adrenocortical hormone

> relatively high levels of epinephrine & norepinephrine

> low levels of electrolyte

> over active sympathetic nervous system

> under active parasympathetic nervous system

> retaining sodium and expelling potassium

> acid balance

I hope that the medical professionals and the students on the list

will save this information to study.

> Liver heat of various kinds:

> - higher levels of prostaglandin F2 alpha (PGF2 alpha) and

> arginine vasopressin (AVP)

> {Vasopressin = posterior pituitary, anti-diuretic hormone,

hypertensive -

> blood vessel contraction}

> - raised norepinephrine (NE) and epinephrine

> - lower L-ENK, ANP and gastrin

> - higher AVP = emotional modulatory abnormality of the brain

> - higher cardiac output

> - raised amplitude of electrogastrogram

> - intestinal styrenated phenol (SP) and vasoactive intestinal

polypeptide

> (VIP) - levels raised in ulcerative colitis lowered by treatment

for Lv Qi

> Stag

Just a reminder that " Wood " (Liver/ Gall Bladder) is the " Mother "

of " Fire " (Heart/ Small Intestine). For those new to TCM, this is

part of what is called 5 Element Theory. A part of this theory

states that what happens to the " Mother " is going to affect

the " Son " . Wood (Liver and Gall Bladder) is the " Mother " , and Fire

(Heart, Small Intestine) is the " Son " of Wood. It's not surprising

that in some cases of Liver Qi Stagnation one sees heart and

intestine (ulcerative colitis) problems. (The small intestine comes

before the large intestine in anatomy, and problems in the small

intestine can carry over into the large intestine.)

5 Element theory further states that any treatment of the " Mother "

will carry over to the " Son " . Tonify the Mother, and the Son

automatically is tonified. Sedate the Mother, and the Son

automatically is sedated.

There are cases where problems in one Organ or organ are not arising

from within that Organ or organ, but from the Mother. The best course

of treatment is not to treat the Son directly but to treat the

Mother. If the healer attempts to treat the heart or intestine

problems directly, results will be inadequate. The Root still exists

in the Mother and continues to pass problems onto the Son. But,

treat the Mother, and the problems in the Son automatically clear up.

> But I need more - now I have come up against a knowledge barrier in

TCM, I

> cannot find an answer to the question " Why can my kd yin deficient

horse not

> take kd yin tonics? "

This is something I want to know too. I have a particular interest

in " knotty " (complex) problems because of my own knotty problems. And

my own problems sometimes with tonification. (Tonification problems

can arise with any of the tonic herbs - Blood, Yin, Yang, and Qi.)

Healers regularly run into situations where even though a medical

problem is not defined or even labeled in Western medicine, a TCM

pattern or patterns are apparent and treatments are avialable.

Sometimes TCM can't help. But there are a lot of situations where

help if not a cure is available via TCM.

Victoria

August 4, 2003

I will like to have more info like this.

I'm trying to under TCM I'm a herbologist/nutritionist using i guess using a

western apporach but try to view/understand things from TCM perspective It helps

me.

Thank you

victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon wrote: