Request for Info

July 20, 2003

Hi all.

I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a

difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other than what's

in the standard textbooks?

Attilio

July 20, 2003

Hi Attilio,

Unschuld writes about it in Medicine in China: A

History of Ideas. Lingshu 77 and 79 give some

interesting variety.

Are your articles web-published?

Lorraine

--- <attiliodalberto

wrote:

> I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i

> pick a

> difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind

> other than what's

> in the standard textbooks?

=====

Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

http://sbc.

July 20, 2003

Thank you Lorraine. I've already looked at Unschuld's book but

haven't seen Lingshu yet. I need to get hold of Lingshu as i only

have Suwen. I'll have a look at chapters 77 and 79 when i find a

copy. Thanks again.

Yes, my articles are web published, below are the links if you wanna

have a look:

http://www.pulsemed.org/attiliobio.htm

http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/webjour.htm

http://www.tcmcentral.com/TCM_press/TCM_Press_arcticle_archive.htm

Attilio

Chinese Medicine , " Lorraine

Wilcox L.Ac. " <xuankong> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> Unschuld writes about it in Medicine in China: A

> History of Ideas. Lingshu 77 and 79 give some

> interesting variety.

>

> Are your articles web-published?

>

> Lorraine

>

> --- <attiliodalberto>

> wrote:

> > I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i

> > pick a

> > difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind

> > other than what's

> > in the standard textbooks?

>

> =====

> Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

>

> SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

> http://sbc.

July 22, 2003

Attilio,

>

> I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a

> difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other than

what's

> in the standard textbooks?

>

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with

what is in the standard textbooks, and I

don't have a bunch of references to hand.

But I have been interested in the various

phenomena that are associated with and

that are labeled as " wind " in Chinese

medicine and have spoken with several

teachers and doctors and fellow students

about it over the years, both here in

China and elsewhere.

I guess the first point to be made is

that, like many if not most if not all

other technical terms in Chinese medicine,

" wind " is part of an elaborate metaphorical

scheme that is used to describe phenomena

and to provide conceptual handles with

which data can be lugged around, associated

with other data, in a kind of mix-and-match

procedure...all for the purpose of finding

an entrance point that allows an intervention

to begin.

In its most basic sense, the notion of

wind is somewhat similar to the concept

of " influenza " in its philological sense,

i.e., an external influence...unnamed and

unknown...that enters from the exterior

and wreaks some particular pattern(s) of

havoc with the normal physiology of the

body.

Of course, there are also phenomena associated

with wind in Chinese medicine that are

endogenous as well as those that are

understood to be exogenous, for example

xue xu resulting in wind that manifests

in a range of symptoms such as rashes,

dizziness, and some kinds of arthritis,

to name just a few.

One of the aspects of wind that has long

interested me is the set of dynamics

associated with trauma. I've come to

think of certain types of injuries as

essentially wind as they come suddenly

from the outside and exert their influence

on the body's systems in a very physical,

mechanical and kinesthetic way.

Well, I just logged on for the first time

and saw this so I thought I'd pipe in.

It dawns on me that this may not at all

be the kind of info you're looking for,

so I'll leave it at that for now. But

I'd be happy to discuss it further if

you or anyone wants to.

Thanks for asking me to join the group.

Ken

July 22, 2003

Hi Ken.

Firstly, let me warmly welcome you to the group. I hope you'll find

it stimulating enough for you.

Yes i am working along the lines you mentioned. I'm trying to get to

the root of Wind but seem to be missing something which follows

along the lines of your discussion. Below is my article so far. See

what you think. It's definetly lacking something but i can't put my

finger on it. Hope you can...

Introduction

Wind in western terms is often embraced during a hot summers day,

used in-doors via a fan to cool us down and also used as a form of

entertainment i.e. flying a kite or wind-surfing. From the view of

Traditional (TCM), the idea of exposing yourself

unnecessarily to Wind is dangerous to the balance of Yin, Yang, Qi

and Blood. In ancient China, the T'ai-I soothsayers utilised belief

in the eight palaces in the eight principal directions of the

compass, which T'ai-I would occupy in a certain order on the so-

called pa-cheng dates, namely, the first day of spring, summer,

autumn, and winter, the autumn and spring equinoxes, as well as the

winter and summer solstices. If the Wind on these days came from the

direction in which T'ai-i happened to be residing, it was the so-

called Wind of repletion and was considered an auspicious omen. If

the Wind blew from the opposite direction, however, it was regarded

as an unfavourable sign (Unschuld 1985, p68-9).

As a spirit or demon, the Wind resided, according to various

indications in Han and pre-Han literature, in caves, tunnels, or

valleys. These terms are also used in acupuncture literature to

designate those holes in the skin through which the so-called Qi is

able to penetrate into the body (as well as flow out) and at which

it was deemed necessary to apply needles in order to influence the

inner Qi. This represents another significant step that marked the

entire subsequent history of medical therapy of systematic

correspondence (Unschuld 1985, p71). The illness-causing potential

of Wind marks a transition, during the final two or three centuries

B.C. from demonological concepts to an idea of influences and

emanations originating from the natural environment of substances

(Unschuld 1985, p68). Wind, Damp, Dryness, Cold, Heat and Summer

Heat are the six climatic changes found in nature. Under normal

conditions, they do not produce pathological changes in the body and

are thus known as the `six types of Qi' (Cheng 1999, p254). These

six types of Qi will only cause disease if either the climatic

changes are extreme or sudden, or if the body's resistance is low.

When responsible for inducing disease, these six types of Qi are

known as the `six exogenous pathogenic factors', all of which can

damage Yin and Yang, Qi and Blood. Wind is the most well known

pathogen in TCM and heads the six exogenous factors. I shall

therefore restrict the focus of this paper to Wind.

Wind (Feng & #20964;) can be separated into two categories: external and

internal. External Wind deals with a human being geographical

location and how the surrounding nature can invade and affect the

balance of Yin and Yang, Qi and Blood within the body. Internal Wind

however, is only related to the Liver (Gan) and is the result of an

improper diet, irregular lifestyle or extreme joy and anger. It is

possible though, for a person to suffer from both external and

internal Wind at the same time. External Wind can also lead to

internal Wind, but internal Wind cannot generate external Wind.

Symptoms always occur because of a reason, and will reflect the

nature of the pathogen (Yanchi 1988, p281). Wind starts by affecting

Blood and Yin with its clinical manifestations always mimicking

those in nature, with rapid changes, intense action and swift

movement (State Administration of TCM 1995, p410). The main clinical

manifestations of external and internal Wind greatly reflect the

nature of Wind:

• Affects the Lung first,

• Affects the skin,

• Affects the top half of the body, like a tree being blown by

Wind,

• Aversion to Wind,

• Causes itching,

• Causes tremors, convulsions, stiffness and paralysis.

• Rapid change in signs and symptoms,

• Rapid onset,

• The migration of signs and symptoms from one area of the

body to the other.

Discussion

External

The body may be `hit' (Chung) by outside agencies such as Wind and

therefore possesses `guards' (Wei) and `army camps' (Ying) to deal

with intruders (Unschuld 1985, p67). Wind can only gain entry into

the body via the skin, mouth and nose if either; the Wei Qi is weak

and the evil Qi is stronger, the evil Qi attacks the body where

vital Qi is deficient or if the evil Qi accumulates, so making

genuine Qi deficient. Wind will usually follow a set pattern of

attack and progression through the body: It firstly disrupts the

movement of the defensive Wei Qi, causing the interstitial spaces of

the skin to open and the hair to rise, giving the feeling of

coldness and the aversion to Wind characteristic of exterior Wind

attack. As these pores close, the patient will feel heat and choking

(Beijing University of TCM 1998, p165). This is the body overheating

as Wei Qi is inhibited in its function of adjusting the opening and

closing of the skin pores; thus the body natural homeostatic

temperature system is hampered, causing the body to become feverish.

If Wind continues to deepen into the channels and collaterals, it

will then migrate to the Lung and obstructs its function. This leads

to the inability of the Lung to properly disperse and descend

fluids, resulting in a runny nose. In some cases, Yin will transform

to Yang, so the disharmony will change from a cold feeling to heat:

with symptoms of a fever, sore throat, dry mouth and yellow thick

phlegm (Williams 1995, p63).

Wind is active and motional, and is the Yang aspect of air. It is

characterised by its ascending, pervading, and its upward, outward

movement; thus it pertains to Yang evils (Beijing University of TCM

1998, p165). Traditionally, diseases due to the six exogenous

factors are closely related to seasonal changes in weather and to

living environments. For example, cold strikes in winter whilst heat

attacks in the summer, dryness occurs in autumn and dampness occurs

due to prolonged exposure to damp. However, with the advent of

technology, seasonally illnesses can strike at any time of the year.

For example, air conditioning can lead to cold attack in summer.

Geographically, dampness occurs in rainy climates, heat in hot

climates and cold in cold climates, whilst Wind is present in all

geographical variations and can attack in any season.

Wind acts to command the movement of the accompanying exogenous

evils' attack against the genuine Qi and also acts as the vehicle

for other pathogenic evils to enter the body; like an amphibious

vehicle carrying soldiers to shore, it allows the transportation of

the other five exogenous evils into the body. Once inside, they form

powerful destructive unions and are categorised as different

syndromes. This is why Wind heads the six pathogenic factors and is

such a deadly and common pathogen in TCM. In the process of causing

disease, the six exogenous factors may influence each other, and may

also, under certain conditions, transform into each other. For

example, pathogenic cold may transform into heat in the interior of

the body, and prolonged summer heat may result in dryness by

consuming the Yin of the body (Cheng 1999, p255).

• Wind-Cold is a Yin pathogenic factor and so will injure

Yang. Wind Cold enters through the pores, TaiYang channels and Lung

(Maclean et al. 1998, p6). It obstructs the circulation of Yang Qi

and Blood (appendix A). Wind-Cold will frequently manifest pain and

discomfort, such as Painful Obstruction Syndrome (Maciocia 1998,

p297). Although it's main clinical features include acute

simultaneous fever and chills, with chills being more predominant

than fever, no sweating, occipital headache, muscle aches, stiff

neck, nasal obstruction or runny nose with thin watery mucous,

sneezing, cough or wheezing with again, thin watery mucous, a thin

white tongue coating and a floating or tight pulse.

• Wind-Heat is very similar to Wind-Cold and will interfere

with the circulation of defensive Wei Qi in the skin and muscles.

This will lead to an aversion to cold since interference with Wei Qi

will not allow the warming of the skin and muscles (appendix A). As

both Wind and Heat are Yang pathogens, the symptoms tend to focus in

the upper body. The main clinical features include a acute fever

with mild chills or no chills, sore, dry or scratchy throat, mild

sweating, headache (usually frontal), thirst, cough with thick or

sticky yellow mucous, nasal obstruction, or nasal discharge which is

thick and yellow or green, red tipped tongue with a thin yellow

coating and a floating, rapid pulse (Maclean and Lyttleton 1998,

p10).

• Wind-Fire is an extreme form of Heat but is much more solid.

Strictly speaking, it is not really an exterior pathogenic factor

(Maciocia 1998, p300).

• Wind-Dampness is a Yin pathogenic factor (appendix A). When

Wind-Dampness invades the body it will migrate around the body. This

will cause Qi stagnation, Blood stasis and Painful Obstruction

Syndrome. (Maciocia 1998, p296).

• Wind-Dryness is a Yang pathogenic factor and will injure

Blood and Yin. It can occur in dry climatic conditions or in

artificial environments, such as in very dry, centrally-heated

buildings. It may follow a Wind Heat attack which dries and damages

body fluids. The Lung system is especially sensitive to dryness. The

clinical symptoms include dryness, particularly in the nose, lips,

mouth and throat, cracked lips, mild fever, aversion to Wind and

Cold, headache, slight sweating, dry cough with little or no mucous,

dry tongue with a slightly red body and a thin white coating, and a

floating, wiry and possible rapid pulse (Maclean et al. 1998, p16).

Once inside the body, Wind moves through the Jinglou system which

forms a network providing a passage of travel. For example, if Wind

travels from the Yangming meridian into the Stomach, it will flow up

the channel to the eyes. What manifests next, depends on the person

physical build. If they are obese, then the Wind cannot escape,

causing fever and yellowing of the eyes. With a thin person, the

Yang Qi is able to disperse outward causing a feeling of coldness

and the eyes to water (Huang Di Nei Jing 1995, p157).

Usually, as Wind enters the skin and moves to the Lung, it will then

move swiftly to the Liver, where it will lead to obstruction with

its intense action and cause hypochondriac pain and vomiting. Wind

will, in accordance with the Five element theory, migrate to the

Spleen (figure 1), where it manifests as a burning sensation in the

abdomen, restlessness and dark scanty urine. This is caused by the

rebellious Qi moving upward due to the disharmony of the five Zang

organs with the obstruction of the six Fu organs. Next the onset of

Shan Jia or herniated mass will occur in the Kidney. The urine will

change to a white colour and become turbid. The last organ in the

chain of events is the Heart. Onset of Wind in this organ will lead

to death within ten days (Huang Dei Nei Jing 1995, p78-79).

(Cannot display the pic, sorry)

Figure 1. The controlling sequence of the Five Elements.

Internal

Internal Wind arises from completely different causes to those of

external Wind. In general internal Wind is the by-product of a

physiological dysfunction involving Yin or Blood deficiency, or Heat

(Maclean et al. 2000, p648). The main clinical manifestations of

interior Wind are tremors, tics, severe dizziness, vertigo and

numbness (Maciocia 1998, p296). The nature of Wind is Yang, with its

season being spring, it's organ the Liver and it's emotion anger.

Any imbalance in any of these aspects will greatly affect the

Liver's function, causing internal Wind.

Internal Liver-Wind tends to be a much more serious disharmony,

especially in women, since the Liver is their congenital organ. It

can therefore lead to a diverse variety of gynaecological disorders.

It can also manifest in conditions such as epilepsy, stroke and

Parkinson disease (Williams 1995, p63). The Liver element is Wood

(Mu & #768;), and is the resolute' organ. It must receive Kidney-water and

be moistened by it. If this does not happen, symptoms of Wind will

manifest (Li 1989, p25). The Liver and Kidney have the same origin.

This is because Liver-Blood relies on Kidney-Jing for its

nourishment and only plentiful Liver-Blood can be transformed into

Kidney-Jing. When Kidney-Jing withers and dries up Liver-Blood

becomes insufficient (Li 1989, p26).

Internal Wind or Liver disharmony, principally arises from three

different conditions:

• Extreme heat can cause Liver-Wind. This happens in the late

stages of febrile diseases when the Heat enters the Blood portion

and generates Wind (Maciocia 1998, p296) (appendix A). The

hyperactivity of pathogenic Heat injuries Ying and Blood, burns the

Liver channel, attacks the Heart and stirs up the Wind in the Liver.

Symptoms include pyrexia with polydipsia, clonic convulsion with

stiff neck, superduction of the eyes, apisthotonos, unconsciousness,

crimson tongue, yellowish fur and a wiry, rapid pulse (Peng 2000,

p209).

• Liver-Yang rising. This condition arises from deficiency of

Liver-Yin, and in prolonged cases causes the rising upwards of Liver-

Yang, which can generate Liver-Wind (Maciocia 1998, p222). The

consumption of Liver Yin and Kidney Yin causes water to fail in

nourishing wood. Yin is therefore unable to suppress the Yang,

leading to the hyperactivity of the Liver Yang and Wind stirring

accompanied with phlegm and mental confusion. Symptoms include

dizziness, a tendency to fall over, severe headaches, numbness and

tremor of the limbs, difficulty in speaking, involuntary movement of

the limbs, walking haltingly, a red tongue, wiry, thready, rapid

pulse or a wiry, tense pulse (Peng 2000, p209).

• A deficiency of Liver-Blood can also cause Liver-Wind. This

is caused by the deficiency of Blood creating an empty space within

the blood vessels. This empty space will be filled by the internal

Wind (Maciocia 1998, p296). The deficiency of Yin and therefore

Blood makes them unable to moisten and nourish the muscles, leading

to the stirring up of endopathic Wind. Symptoms include numbness of

the limbs, muscular contracture, twitching and cramp, reddish tongue

or red tongue with insufficient fluid and a thready pulse (Peng

2000, p210).

Conclusion

Wind is the most important pathogen in TCM. It can affect the body

from both internally and externally. The Huang Dei Nei Jing rightly

states Wind power and our possible defence against this rebellious

pathogen:

" Pathogenic wind is the root of all evil. However, if one is centred

and the emotions are clear and calm, energy is abundant and

resistance is strong; even when confronted with the force of the

most powerful, vicious wind, one will not be invaded " (Huang Dei

Nei Jing 1995, p10).

Attilio

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> Attilio,

>

> >

> > I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a

> > difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other than

> what's

> > in the standard textbooks?

> >

> I have to admit that I'm not familiar with

> what is in the standard textbooks, and I

> don't have a bunch of references to hand.

> But I have been interested in the various

> phenomena that are associated with and

> that are labeled as " wind " in Chinese

> medicine and have spoken with several

> teachers and doctors and fellow students

> about it over the years, both here in

> China and elsewhere.

>

> I guess the first point to be made is

> that, like many if not most if not all

> other technical terms in Chinese medicine,

> " wind " is part of an elaborate metaphorical

> scheme that is used to describe phenomena

> and to provide conceptual handles with

> which data can be lugged around, associated

> with other data, in a kind of mix-and-match

> procedure...all for the purpose of finding

> an entrance point that allows an intervention

> to begin.

>

> In its most basic sense, the notion of

> wind is somewhat similar to the concept

> of " influenza " in its philological sense,

> i.e., an external influence...unnamed and

> unknown...that enters from the exterior

> and wreaks some particular pattern(s) of

> havoc with the normal physiology of the

> body.

>

> Of course, there are also phenomena associated

> with wind in Chinese medicine that are

> endogenous as well as those that are

> understood to be exogenous, for example

> xue xu resulting in wind that manifests

> in a range of symptoms such as rashes,

> dizziness, and some kinds of arthritis,

> to name just a few.

>

> One of the aspects of wind that has long

> interested me is the set of dynamics

> associated with trauma. I've come to

> think of certain types of injuries as

> essentially wind as they come suddenly

> from the outside and exert their influence

> on the body's systems in a very physical,

> mechanical and kinesthetic way.

>

> Well, I just logged on for the first time

> and saw this so I thought I'd pipe in.

>

> It dawns on me that this may not at all

> be the kind of info you're looking for,

> so I'll leave it at that for now. But

> I'd be happy to discuss it further if

> you or anyone wants to.

>

> Thanks for asking me to join the group.

>

> Ken

July 23, 2003

Attilio,

>

> Firstly, let me warmly welcome you to the group. I hope you'll

find

> it stimulating enough for you.

The last thing I need is more stimulation.

I glanced at some of the recent posts about

euthanasia and found that I really couldn't

even begin to think about it. Too stimulating.

I'll have a look at your piece and

let you know my thoughts.

Ken

July 23, 2003

Attilio,

I think your paper could benefit from

a couple of amendments. The first would

be, along the lines to which I referred

yesterday, i.e., inclusion of a relatively brief

discussion of the nature of metaphor in

Chinese medical terminology so that the

reader, presuming little or no previous

knowledge of this aspect of the subject,

is not led to wonder whether or not the

notion of " wind " implies that there are

little...or big winds blowing around inside

the body according to this theory.

Now the question becomes, where you find

the source materials to substantiate such

a discussion. I know that such sources exist,

but I don't have them to hand and can't

guide you to them.

Much of my own understanding has been gained

from personal conversations with teachers,

students, doctors, etc.; and over the years

I have formulated an albeit tentative grasp

of the nature of metaphor in Chinese medical

language and theory.

But I think that it's important to bring some

light to this dimension or risk the typical

danger of being utterly misunderstood by those

native English users who read " wind " and think

" wind " rather than a subtle and useful metaphor

to describe an array of complex dynamics, which

the ancients could not identify in the ways

that modern researchers have been able to.

When a wind blows in the physical environment,

certain effects are seen, felt, and experienced.

Thus when comparable effects were perceived within

the body, a comparable cause was postulated: wind.

This does not discount the ancient origins of the

notion of wind as an invading agency, as described

in various of the citations you've included.

I don't intend this to be a comprehensive

explanation of the origin of the term, just

an indication of the kind of thing I'm talking

about. Were I to set about to do it thoroughly,

I would not begin in medical langauge and literature

but in the broader context of the way in which

the Chinese language functions.

This kind of approach can be found in both

Who Can Ride the Dragon? and A Brief History

of Qi. In fact, there may be some material

on wind in chapter 4 on Qi in Medicine of BHQ.

I don't recall off hand if that stuff survived

the editing process. That poor book was once

more than twice as long as it currently is.

Chapter 5 on Qi Gong was once as long as all

the other chapters combined!

Oh well.

The other thing I'd do to gussy up your

paper is that once I'd established the

metaphoric foundations of the term and its

application to descriptions of pathological

processes, I'd reorganize the presentation

of the excellent citations you've come up with

to accord with this approach, so that the

reader is guided through the particulars in

light of the overall perspective.

There are a few statements that I'm still

puzzling over, such as wind is the yang

aspect of air. This kind of characterization

becomes problematic when a wind results

in a yin pathology.

I'm also not entirely sure what you mean

when you say that the liver is the congenital

organ of women.

But I'm not going to go through the piece

with a fine tooth comb at this point.

I hope my fairly random thoughts are of

some use. If you want to discuss it further,

I'm happy to.

And I'll look forward to seeing the final

version of the piece when it's ready.

Ken

July 23, 2003

Hi Attilio,

You may wish to also consider the nature of wind as a substrate in the body and an analog for qi. There are people who consider environmental "excesses" (wind, humidity, fire etc.) to have a place in the nourishing of the body. Early in the su wen there is a series of statements along the lines of "The east creates wind, wind creates the sour flavor, which creates wood which creates liver", one for each element, its chapter 2, 3, or 4, sorry I'm not much of a quote slinger. I assume that this school of though took off on that. I think it is a Korean school that uses the theory, it was mentioned by a friend who studied in Korea.

All wind pathologies more or less bear out the idea that wind and qi are the same thing, qi basically being domesticated wind, consider:

External wind is typically only possible where there is compromised channels to enter, meaning a vacuity of wei, ying, or qi and blood. This allows a space for unanchored wind to set up shop and invite his rowdy friends over for a kegger.

Internal wind is typically due to deficiency, blood xu = mild internal Sx, yin xu with yang rising = stronger Sx, in the case of fire stirring wind we see the worst Sx. Why is that? In the case of blood xu, the qi is not anchored and it floats about as wind, or wild qi, with yin xu some of the bodies yang energy can get into the act, making the Sx worse because the volume of qi has increased. In the full heat case the heat must be strong enough to sunder the link between qi and blood, but since the person is healthy, and the qi is very active in fighting off the febrile pathogen there is a whole mess of qi available to misbehave. In the other two cases, qi/blood, and yin/yang tend to decline in parallel, so they are almost always attenuated before the pathology kicks in. I think that most wind pathologies, including itching, can be explained plausibly such that wind is rogue qi, not always external and most treatment methods seem to bear this out, as they involve clamping down with heavy meds and then nourishing the yin and blood substrate to reanchor the wayward qi. It is reintegrated into the body. In the case of superficial wind (like itching) the wind is expelled but one always addresses the blood (which is generally either hot or deficient). Some cases I treat where itching is a side complaint clear up without any exterior releasing at all, just nourishing blood is usually plenty.

Perhaps we should regard internal wind as we look at phlegm or blood stasis, a biproduct of pathological processes, which is a pathogen in it's own right. That puts it in with miscellaneous disease factors I think.

Also interesting is the etymology of the character, with the insect radical, and its implications for demonological and pestilential invasion. Consider that many insect medicinals are used for their ability to track wind, in part due to this semantic.

The etymologies and nature of ying and wei are interesting in this circumstance too. The army metaphore is part of it, but I think there are some sociocultural inplications in the definitions of ying and wei. Ying represents a brilliance, as we see from two fire radicals which are the common element in ying and rong, the character which is frequently substituted for ying in classical texts. Wei means to defend, but it also means satilite, or orbit. The army was traditionally a way of exiling criminals, it's job was to patrol the frontiers and stay away from the center. The character's elements are walking and surrounding. In the description of the formation of wei and ying wei is made of the turbid and ying is make of the subtle, why is that? Usually if something is the yin side of a pair it is made of the denser more turbid element, while the yang side is made of the subtle. Here they say it is because the turbid is to coarse to travel in the channels. Our usual interpretation of ying as the fluid in sweat would bear out that it is the heavy element here. But ying is excellent and brilliant and it stays at home, wei is coase and crude and patrols the exterior. Being away from the center in zhong guo is bad, being at the center and directing and leading is good. Life imitates art, or vice versa...

The metaphores of light and heavy medicinals are interesting too, in this age of increased chemical analysis of CHM it's always nice to see that red things still drain heat and rocks still hold things down.

Another thing to look into is the discrepancy between zhen trigram (liver, spring, thunder) in ba gua, and xun (gentle wind). In ba gau theory wind is a much milder and less malevolent force. They are a polarity in the preheaven ba gua. That contrast between absolute raging power and a gentle zephyr is nice. Stephen Birch & Kiko Matsumoto's book FIve Elements and Ten Stems has an interesting organization of five elements (in the human body) as represented by their gua in the "cosmic" arrangement in Maciocia's Fundmentals. The other gua, gen (moutain, stillness) xun (gentil wind) and qian (heaven, breath) are presented as that which is required to balance the body, through the practice of meditation (being still and gently breathing).

Pardon my blathering on, I've been thinking about this a little lately...

Par Scott

> > I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a > > difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other than > what's > > in the standard textbooks?> >> I have to admit that I'm not familiar with> what is in the standard textbooks, and I> don't have a bunch of references to hand.> But I have been interested in the various> phenomena that are associated with and> that are labeled as "wind" in Chinese> medicine and have spoken with several> teachers and doctors and fellow students> about it over the years, both here in> China and elsewhere.> > I guess the first point to be made is> that, like many if not most if not all> other technical terms in Chinese medicine,> "wind" is part of an elaborate metaphorical> scheme that is used to describe phenomena> and to provide conceptual handles with> which data can be lugged around, associated> with other data, in a kind of mix-and-match> procedure...all for the purpose of finding> an entrance point that allows an intervention> to begin.> > In its most basic sense, the notion of> wind is somewhat similar to the concept> of "influenza" in its philological sense,> i.e., an external influence...unnamed and> unknown...that enters from the exterior> and wreaks some particular pattern(s) of> havoc with the normal physiology of the> body.> > Of course, there are also phenomena associated> with wind in Chinese medicine that are> endogenous as well as those that are> understood to be exogenous, for example> xue xu resulting in wind that manifests> in a range of symptoms such as rashes,> dizziness, and some kinds of arthritis,> to name just a few.> > One of the aspects of wind that has long> interested me is the set of dynamics> associated with trauma. I've come to > think of certain types of injuries as> essentially wind as they come suddenly> from the outside and exert their influence> on the body's systems in a very physical,> mechanical and kinesthetic way.> > Well, I just logged on for the first time> and saw this so I thought I'd pipe in.> > It dawns on me that this may not at all> be the kind of info you're looking for,> so I'll leave it at that for now. But> I'd be happy to discuss it further if> you or anyone wants to.> > Thanks for asking me to join the group.> > Ken

July 23, 2003

Thank you Par and Scott for your wonderful feedback. It's gonna take

some time for me to digest all that. Actually, i'm a little ill

after acute food poisoning at a Chinese restaurant. So i'll get back

to you in a few days.

Attilio

July 24, 2003

Hi Par,

Thank you very much for your feedback regarding Wind. I found the

idea of Wind being untamed Qi very interesting. But what makes Qi

wild Wind? Is it it's detachment from Blood, which is the mother or

is it the exhaustion Qi may feel after being attacked by evil Qi?

Can it therefore be corrupted by evil Qi?

Your ideas of Ying and Wei fit well with `the art of war'. I find

that there seem to be great similarities between TCM and `the art of

war'. Chiefly because fighting evil and creating health or peace is

a war between good and evil.

As to the Ba Gua, I'll have to look into that a little more.

Attiilio

Chinese Medicine , " Par Scott "

<parufus@e...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> You may wish to also consider the nature of wind as a substrate in

the body and an analog for qi. There are people who consider

environmental " excesses " (wind, humidity, fire etc.) to have a

place in the nourishing of the body. Early in the su wen there is a

series of statements along the lines of " The east creates wind, wind

creates the sour flavor, which creates wood which creates liver " ,

one for each element, its chapter 2, 3, or 4, sorry I'm not much of

a quote slinger. I assume that this school of though took off on

that. I think it is a Korean school that uses the theory, it was

mentioned by a friend who studied in Korea.

>

> All wind pathologies more or less bear out the idea that wind and

qi are the same thing, qi basically being domesticated wind,

consider:

>

> External wind is typically only possible where there is

compromised channels to enter, meaning a vacuity of wei, ying, or qi

and blood. This allows a space for unanchored wind to set up shop

and invite his rowdy friends over for a kegger.

>

> Internal wind is typically due to deficiency, blood xu = mild

internal Sx, yin xu with yang rising = stronger Sx, in the case of

fire stirring wind we see the worst Sx. Why is that? In the case

of blood xu, the qi is not anchored and it floats about as wind, or

wild qi, with yin xu some of the bodies yang energy can get into the

act, making the Sx worse because the volume of qi has increased. In

the full heat case the heat must be strong enough to sunder the link

between qi and blood, but since the person is healthy, and the qi is

very active in fighting off the febrile pathogen there is a whole

mess of qi available to misbehave. In the other two cases,

qi/blood, and yin/yang tend to decline in parallel, so they are

almost always attenuated before the pathology kicks in. I think

that most wind pathologies, including itching, can be explained

plausibly such that wind is rogue qi, not always external and most

treatment methods seem to bear this out, as they involve clamping

down with heavy meds and then nourishing the yin and blood substrate

to reanchor the wayward qi. It is reintegrated into the body. In

the case of superficial wind (like itching) the wind is expelled but

one always addresses the blood (which is generally either hot or

deficient). Some cases I treat where itching is a side complaint

clear up without any exterior releasing at all, just nourishing

blood is usually plenty.

>

> Perhaps we should regard internal wind as we look at phlegm or

blood stasis, a biproduct of pathological processes, which is a

pathogen in it's own right. That puts it in with miscellaneous

disease factors I think.

>

> Also interesting is the etymology of the character, with the

insect radical, and its implications for demonological and

pestilential invasion. Consider that many insect medicinals are

used for their ability to track wind, in part due to this semantic.

>

> The etymologies and nature of ying and wei are interesting in this

circumstance too. The army metaphore is part of it, but I think

there are some sociocultural inplications in the definitions of ying

and wei. Ying represents a brilliance, as we see from two fire

radicals which are the common element in ying and rong, the

character which is frequently substituted for ying in classical

texts. Wei means to defend, but it also means satilite, or orbit.

The army was traditionally a way of exiling criminals, it's job was

to patrol the frontiers and stay away from the center. The

character's elements are walking and surrounding. In the

description of the formation of wei and ying wei is made of the

turbid and ying is make of the subtle, why is that? Usually if

something is the yin side of a pair it is made of the denser more

turbid element, while the yang side is made of the subtle. Here

they say it is because the turbid is to coarse to travel in the

channels. Our usual interpretation of ying as the fluid in sweat

would bear out that it is the heavy element here. But ying is

excellent and brilliant and it stays at home, wei is coase and crude

and patrols the exterior. Being away from the center in zhong guo

is bad, being at the center and directing and leading is good. Life

imitates art, or vice versa...

>

> The metaphores of light and heavy medicinals are interesting too,

in this age of increased chemical analysis of CHM it's always nice

to see that red things still drain heat and rocks still hold things

down.

>

> Another thing to look into is the discrepancy between zhen trigram

(liver, spring, thunder) in ba gua, and xun (gentle wind). In ba

gau theory wind is a much milder and less malevolent force. They

are a polarity in the preheaven ba gua. That contrast between

absolute raging power and a gentle zephyr is nice. Stephen Birch &

Kiko Matsumoto's book FIve Elements and Ten Stems has an interesting

organization of five elements (in the human body) as represented by

their gua in the " cosmic " arrangement in Maciocia's Fundmentals.

The other gua, gen (moutain, stillness) xun (gentil wind) and qian

(heaven, breath) are presented as that which is required to balance

the body, through the practice of meditation (being still and gently

breathing).

>

> Pardon my blathering on, I've been thinking about this a little

lately...

>

> Par Scott

>

> > > I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a

> > > difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other

than

> > what's

> > > in the standard textbooks?

> > >

> > I have to admit that I'm not familiar with

> > what is in the standard textbooks, and I

> > don't have a bunch of references to hand.

> > But I have been interested in the various

> > phenomena that are associated with and

> > that are labeled as " wind " in Chinese

> > medicine and have spoken with several

> > teachers and doctors and fellow students

> > about it over the years, both here in

> > China and elsewhere.

> >

> > I guess the first point to be made is

> > that, like many if not most if not all

> > other technical terms in Chinese medicine,

> > " wind " is part of an elaborate metaphorical

> > scheme that is used to describe phenomena

> > and to provide conceptual handles with

> > which data can be lugged around, associated

> > with other data, in a kind of mix-and-match

> > procedure...all for the purpose of finding

> > an entrance point that allows an intervention

> > to begin.

> >

> > In its most basic sense, the notion of

> > wind is somewhat similar to the concept

> > of " influenza " in its philological sense,

> > i.e., an external influence...unnamed and

> > unknown...that enters from the exterior

> > and wreaks some particular pattern(s) of

> > havoc with the normal physiology of the

> > body.

> >

> > Of course, there are also phenomena associated

> > with wind in Chinese medicine that are

> > endogenous as well as those that are

> > understood to be exogenous, for example

> > xue xu resulting in wind that manifests

> > in a range of symptoms such as rashes,

> > dizziness, and some kinds of arthritis,

> > to name just a few.

> >

> > One of the aspects of wind that has long

> > interested me is the set of dynamics

> > associated with trauma. I've come to

> > think of certain types of injuries as

> > essentially wind as they come suddenly

> > from the outside and exert their influence

> > on the body's systems in a very physical,

> > mechanical and kinesthetic way.

> >

> > Well, I just logged on for the first time

> > and saw this so I thought I'd pipe in.

> >

> > It dawns on me that this may not at all

> > be the kind of info you're looking for,

> > so I'll leave it at that for now. But

> > I'd be happy to discuss it further if

> > you or anyone wants to.

> >

> > Thanks for asking me to join the group.

> >

> > Ken

>

July 24, 2003

Hi Ken,

Thank you Ken for your feedback. I was suppose to say thank you to

you yesterday but made a mistake and typed Scott, sorry.

As far as I was taught, when Wind attacks the external body it is

actually Wind and when it's inside the body it is also Wind. When

you say it is a metaphor, what is the metaphor replacing? If it's

not Wind, what is it?

Yes, I think I came up with the idea of Wind being the Yang aspect

of air. But it is very motional and is therefore Yang as everything

can be divided into Yin and Yang and it seems to be more Yang than

Yin. But I do take-on-board your comments about it being problematic

when Wind results in a Yin pathology.

The kidney is the most important organ for men and the liver is the

most important organ for women because of their menstruation cycles.

That's why I stated the liver as being their congenital organ,

perhaps the word `congenital' wasn't the perfect one.

Anyway, your feedback has been very helpful.

Attilio

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> Attilio,

>

> I think your paper could benefit from

> a couple of amendments. The first would

> be, along the lines to which I referred

> yesterday, i.e., inclusion of a relatively brief

> discussion of the nature of metaphor in

> Chinese medical terminology so that the

> reader, presuming little or no previous

> knowledge of this aspect of the subject,

> is not led to wonder whether or not the

> notion of " wind " implies that there are

> little...or big winds blowing around inside

> the body according to this theory.

>

> Now the question becomes, where you find

> the source materials to substantiate such

> a discussion. I know that such sources exist,

> but I don't have them to hand and can't

> guide you to them.

>

> Much of my own understanding has been gained

> from personal conversations with teachers,

> students, doctors, etc.; and over the years

> I have formulated an albeit tentative grasp

> of the nature of metaphor in Chinese medical

> language and theory.

>

> But I think that it's important to bring some

> light to this dimension or risk the typical

> danger of being utterly misunderstood by those

> native English users who read " wind " and think

> " wind " rather than a subtle and useful metaphor

> to describe an array of complex dynamics, which

> the ancients could not identify in the ways

> that modern researchers have been able to.

>

> When a wind blows in the physical environment,

> certain effects are seen, felt, and experienced.

> Thus when comparable effects were perceived within

> the body, a comparable cause was postulated: wind.

> This does not discount the ancient origins of the

> notion of wind as an invading agency, as described

> in various of the citations you've included.

>

> I don't intend this to be a comprehensive

> explanation of the origin of the term, just

> an indication of the kind of thing I'm talking

> about. Were I to set about to do it thoroughly,

> I would not begin in medical langauge and literature

> but in the broader context of the way in which

> the Chinese language functions.

>

> This kind of approach can be found in both

> Who Can Ride the Dragon? and A Brief History

> of Qi. In fact, there may be some material

> on wind in chapter 4 on Qi in Medicine of BHQ.

> I don't recall off hand if that stuff survived

> the editing process. That poor book was once

> more than twice as long as it currently is.

> Chapter 5 on Qi Gong was once as long as all

> the other chapters combined!

>

> Oh well.

>

> The other thing I'd do to gussy up your

> paper is that once I'd established the

> metaphoric foundations of the term and its

> application to descriptions of pathological

> processes, I'd reorganize the presentation

> of the excellent citations you've come up with

> to accord with this approach, so that the

> reader is guided through the particulars in

> light of the overall perspective.

>

> There are a few statements that I'm still

> puzzling over, such as wind is the yang

> aspect of air. This kind of characterization

> becomes problematic when a wind results

> in a yin pathology.

>

> I'm also not entirely sure what you mean

> when you say that the liver is the congenital

> organ of women.

>

> But I'm not going to go through the piece

> with a fine tooth comb at this point.

>

> I hope my fairly random thoughts are of

> some use. If you want to discuss it further,

> I'm happy to.

>

> And I'll look forward to seeing the final

> version of the piece when it's ready.

>

> Ken

July 24, 2003

Attilio,

>

> Thank you Ken for your feedback. I was suppose to say thank you to

> you yesterday but made a mistake and typed Scott, sorry.

>

You're very welcome and no problem. Must

have been quite a case of food poisoning.

Are you feeling better?

> As far as I was taught, when Wind attacks the external body it is

> actually Wind and when it's inside the body it is also Wind. When

> you say it is a metaphor, what is the metaphor replacing? If it's

> not Wind, what is it?

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask,

What is wind? I mean the actual phenomenon

in the atmosphere?

Wind comes about as a result of differentials

in pressure that exist between cells of air

that form in the atmosphere. We often talk

about wind " blowing " but wind is actually

more the result of suction. Areas of relatively

low pressure suck in air from areas of relatively

high pressure and, voila, wind.

Of course it comes in all shapes and sizes.

About a year ago or so I was standing on

the Pont des Arts behind the Louvre in

Paris and watching the wind scud across

the surface of the Seine. A constantly

changing pattern of ripples in the water

was left where the atmosphere and the

hydrosphere intersected or maybe it's

better to say rubbed up against each other.

And in the patterns of changing patterns

I began to recognize an emerging regularity

that I realized is more or less what the

Chinese word jing (as in jing luo) means,

a warp that runs through a piece of fabric,

for example.

I saw this whole scene as a great illustration

of what the concept of qi is all about

and gained an appreciation of the source

of the notion of making maps of these kinds

of interactive potentials and projecting

them onto the body.

Now, where is the metaphor?

A metaphor is simply the coaxing of meaning

out of words by comparing word/objects that

are unlike each other in order to provoke

an awareness that is contained in neither

one but which only emerges from the interaction

of the two.

Gee, this is kind of a subtle point; and I'm

not sure I've done a very good job of saying

what I mean. And perhaps that's why I'm

suggesting that take a look at this status

of " wind " as a metaphor, i.e., I need help

to be able to both understand and explain

it more simply and clearly.

That's my ulterior motive.

> Yes, I think I came up with the idea of Wind being the Yang aspect

> of air. But it is very motional and is therefore Yang as

everything

> can be divided into Yin and Yang and it seems to be more Yang than

> Yin. But I do take-on-board your comments about it being

problematic

> when Wind results in a Yin pathology.

I just keep thinking of that line from

the Taiji Classics that states that each

place in the body has the same xu and shi,

or, in other words, yin and yang.

>

> The kidney is the most important organ for men and the liver is

the

> most important organ for women because of their menstruation

cycles.

> That's why I stated the liver as being their congenital organ,

> perhaps the word `congenital' wasn't the perfect one.

I don't mean to be problematic, but I'm

also not tracking with the idea of " most

important. " I get the feeling that you're

referring to a body of ideas with which

I may or may not be familiar...probably

the latter. But at any rate, I really

don't get it. Seems to me that both organs

are more or less vital to both genders.

Certainly the physiology and patterns of

pathology tend to differ between men

and women, but again I'm just not sure

what " more important " refers to here.

> Anyway, your feedback has been very helpful.

As is yours.

Ken

July 24, 2003

Hello Attilio (and hello everyone)

My first time here, so please bear with me.

Attilio

Regarding your request below, I simply wanted to pass on my thoughts

on how you might collate additional material on the subject of wind

for your article.

If it were I contemplating such an article... or indeed on any of our

wonderful elements, i would choose to include my 'observations' of

it. What I would want to look for is how the wind behaves in our

environment; how it interacts with trees and the earth, the metal

that surrounds our urban lives (you should see the rusty old heaps

around where i work!) the sea (or in my case a canal) and what it can

do to and for fire.

Then by thinking of the organs that the elements relate to (both yin

and yang) and overlaying how wind would, lets say 'interface' with

them.... how then does the body (dys)function and how can an

acupuncture needle/point help calm that dysfunction.... etc.

I hope this has made some sense, it has to me on many an ocassion,

where I have sort to find the answer to someone's ailment at a

spiritual AND physical level and found it in the law of nature.

I look forward to reading your article. Good luck.

Best wishes to all

Persis

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

>

> Hi all.

>

> I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a

> difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other than

what's

> in the standard textbooks?

>

> Attilio

July 25, 2003

I don't have it here, but there was a report released some time ago after a heat wave in Chicago, where a great number of people were admitted to hospital for heat exhaustion and dehydration. Most were deemed to have fully recovered when they were sent home, but almost all of them were dead with in year of complications. The fluid component was piped in, but nothing was done to treat the stasis issues that resulted from this drying out.

>>>If you can find please post it. Sounds very interesting

alon

July 25, 2003

Attilio,

I enjoyed your writing on wind and the responses you have received thus far. My own thoughts on the subject come from bits and pieces I have picked up in my 25 years of Taoist studies with a teacher from a long oral tradition thus I have no written references for most of this.

My understanding is that the phenomena of wind as a natural environmental force was the single most influential in inspiring the concept of qi. Like qi, wind cannot be directly seen - one only knows of its presence by virtue of its effect on that which can be seen. Thus, wind is a force that acts on/with/between things rather than being a "thing" in itself.

From the most gentle of breezes stirring ripples on a mirror-still pond or the rustling of leaves in a bamboo forest, to a mighty gale that could knock a man down, the range of this invisible force is truly remarkable. While water was often used as a metaphor for the gentle power of qi, wind was likewise known to be an example of a soft thing that can wear down the hard. The ancient Chinese were well aware of the wind's ability to erode mighty mountains and literally change the face of the earth.

Chuang Tzu wrote: 'The breath of the Universe, said Tzu-Ch'i, 'is called wind. At times it is inactive. But when it arises, then from a myriad apertures there issues its excited noise. Heave you ever heard its deafening roar? On a bluff in a mountain forest, in huge trees, a hundred spans round, the apertures and orifices are like nostrils, mouths or ears, like beam-sockets, cups, mortars, or pools and puddles. And wind goes rushing through them, like swirling torrents or singing arrows, bellowing, sousing, trilling, wailing, roaring, purling, whistling in front and echoing behind, now soft with the cool breeze, now shrill with the whirlwind, till the tempest and apertures are empty and still. Have you ever observed how the trees and branches shake and quiver, twist and twirl?' (Joseph Needham translation)

Needham also chronicles a unique practice the Chinese engaged in called 'observing the qi' AKA 'observing the blowing of ashes.' 12 pitch pipes, aligned to compass points, were sealed within a chamber and packed with reed ashes. At the right time of the month, the correct pipe would have its ashes blown out by the corresponding qi of the earth. Needham also notes the manner in which very specific pitch pipes were used for linear measurement. My teacher, Master Ni, wrote of the traditional lengths of 12 ancient pitch pipes once used to balance the 12 meridians. Some of the measurements were to the thousandth of an inch!

Wind - air - breath - qi - all were seen as being close in their nature and represented a bridge between the manifest and unmanifest realm. Pretty cool -eh?

Matt Bauer

-

Par Scott

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:29 PM

Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info

Hi Attilio,

Another windy response...

Some models of the body would have that we absorb energies from the environment. One of these is the model where the "moving qi between the kidneys" is a resonator for universal energy. Another is the idea that we require environmental energies to live. The atmosphere in which we live is somewhat limited (in terms of the range of temperature, humidity and oxygen content). If things outside of that range could be considered xie (contrary to our life energy), things within that range would then be zheng. We also adapt to our environments and are shaped by them, our pathologies reflect them. Our diets are frequently cited as a source for our health problems, but what about our environmental diet. Our mouths reject poison, our skins reject xie qi, when this mechanism becomes deranged xie qi is allowed to enter. Consider that many people live in situations where their environments are extremely homogeneous. This narrowing of environmental diet weakens the body's ability to "digest" these energies. Now I'm not advocating moving to the tundra to improve ones health, but exposure to mild variances of weather (or, in the case of office workers, any weather at all) can be very pleasant and refreshing. So in terms of your question, I think there is xie qi that enters the body in wind cold/heat situations, but that there is also zheng qi entering and leaving the body constantly. Wind can be seen as a metaphor for the qi we get form the atmosphere, fire for the qi we obtain from heat, etc.

So, there is a two part answer to your question. The qi from the exterior in cases of wind cold/heat is from the exterior, but it is not always xie to all people. I guess what I meant originally is that qi and wind are the same material. The second part has to do with the mutual function that the blood and qi have of nourishing and embracing one another. If we liken it to the relationship of yin and yang I think we will find that it is yang's responsibility to grasp yin (since it is the "function" part of this pair), for when yang weakens it floats. When yin is weakened it does not provide enough ballast for yang, and yang also floats, though the clinical qualities of these two situations are different. This manifests with qi and blood. When someone has a large loss of blood they also loose qi, since they are bound together. When the quality of blood declines (stasis or vacuity) it looses the ability to store qi, leading to wind. When the qi is extremely weak it deserts just like yang (granted, blood stasis is not the first thing one is thinking about in those scenarios). When qi is vacuous it effects the quality of blood, leading to stasis.

In terms of it's struggle with xie qi what I meant was that the body has mobilized a lot of qi. I always assumed the reason we feel tired when ill is not because we are qi deficient, but that the qi is active in a different area of the body. In the case of wen bing scenarios with a lot of wind symptoms, heat has entered the blood and sundered its relationship to qi, much in the same way it overwhelms the spleens containment function by its frenetic activity. It is not a case of vacuity, but of a relative excess the trounces the bodies ability to regulate itself. The violence of the symptoms reflects the large volume of qi that has been liberated by the heat. The blood and qi work as a unit, when their connection is destroyed blood becomes stasis blood (which may or may not be able to be reactivated as a useful substance*) and qi becomes wind. I don't think that qi becomes fatigued, it is just energy. It can become blocked, stagnated or dispersed.

Xie qi can corrupt zheng qi by creating an imbalnace between yin and yang or qi and blood. When qi and blood are separated that qi becomes xie (as its zheng nature is to be with blood).

I guess the question is, what makes qi our qi, versus tian qi, or xie qi? I think it is related to a persons ability to identify with the energy. Many daoist meditations are focused on making connections with the universe, and projecting the mind to the ends of space. I think that this is an effort to align oneself with the qi of the cosmos, and once that is accomplished one has as much energy as one needs. In martial qi gong people become adept at absorbing energy that would otherwise cause physical harm and either projecting it out again or dispersing it. I think we can have the same relationship with environmental energies, though I suppose it is a matter of some cultivation!

The similarities with the art of war are interesting, I haven't read it, but I assume that they are both based on yin yang and ba gua theory, so at root they are the same idea. In the Three Kingdoms there are all of these daoist characters running around as military advisors, and, while partially they assist their emperors with magic, they also have that instinctive sense of the dao and yin/yang which allows them to overcome opposing armies.

Obviously these are my own opinions, and as my experience is very limited I wouldn't claim any great authority.

Par Scott

*I have found myself giving more and more credence to schools of thought that see stasis as the main source of aging symptoms. It is interesting to look at formulas that treat stasis/stagnation and look at the two possibilities. One can either energize and reincorporate the static, or one can purge the stasis/stagnation. There are some parallels in Western medicine, such as arteriosclerosis, antioxidant therapy, and the progressive shift of the body's moisture content as we age. I don't have it here, but there was a report released some time ago after a heat wave in Chicago, where a great number of people were admitted to hospital for heat exhaustion and dehydration. Most were deemed to have fully recovered when they were sent home, but almost all of them were dead with in year of complications. The fluid component was piped in, but nothing was done to treat the stasis issues that resulted from this drying out.

Thank you very much for your feedback regarding Wind. I found the idea of Wind being untamed Qi very interesting. But what makes Qi wild Wind? Is it it's detachment from Blood, which is the mother or is it the exhaustion Qi may feel after being attacked by evil Qi? Can it therefore be corrupted by evil Qi? Your ideas of Ying and Wei fit well with `the art of war'. I find that there seem to be great similarities between TCM and `the art of war'. Chiefly because fighting evil and creating health or peace is a war between good and evil. As to the Ba Gua, I'll have to look into that a little more. Attiilio

July 25, 2003

Hi Attilio,

Another windy response...

Some models of the body would have that we absorb energies from the environment. One of these is the model where the "moving qi between the kidneys" is a resonator for universal energy. Another is the idea that we require environmental energies to live. The atmosphere in which we live is somewhat limited (in terms of the range of temperature, humidity and oxygen content). If things outside of that range could be considered xie (contrary to our life energy), things within that range would then be zheng. We also adapt to our environments and are shaped by them, our pathologies reflect them. Our diets are frequently cited as a source for our health problems, but what about our environmental diet. Our mouths reject poison, our skins reject xie qi, when this mechanism becomes deranged xie qi is allowed to enter. Consider that many people live in situations where their environments are extremely homogeneous. This narrowing of environmental diet weakens the body's ability to "digest" these energies. Now I'm not advocating moving to the tundra to improve ones health, but exposure to mild variances of weather (or, in the case of office workers, any weather at all) can be very pleasant and refreshing. So in terms of your question, I think there is xie qi that enters the body in wind cold/heat situations, but that there is also zheng qi entering and leaving the body constantly. Wind can be seen as a metaphor for the qi we get form the atmosphere, fire for the qi we obtain from heat, etc.

So, there is a two part answer to your question. The qi from the exterior in cases of wind cold/heat is from the exterior, but it is not always xie to all people. I guess what I meant originally is that qi and wind are the same material. The second part has to do with the mutual function that the blood and qi have of nourishing and embracing one another. If we liken it to the relationship of yin and yang I think we will find that it is yang's responsibility to grasp yin (since it is the "function" part of this pair), for when yang weakens it floats. When yin is weakened it does not provide enough ballast for yang, and yang also floats, though the clinical qualities of these two situations are different. This manifests with qi and blood. When someone has a large loss of blood they also loose qi, since they are bound together. When the quality of blood declines (stasis or vacuity) it looses the ability to store qi, leading to wind. When the qi is extremely weak it deserts just like yang (granted, blood stasis is not the first thing one is thinking about in those scenarios). When qi is vacuous it effects the quality of blood, leading to stasis.

In terms of it's struggle with xie qi what I meant was that the body has mobilized a lot of qi. I always assumed the reason we feel tired when ill is not because we are qi deficient, but that the qi is active in a different area of the body. In the case of wen bing scenarios with a lot of wind symptoms, heat has entered the blood and sundered its relationship to qi, much in the same way it overwhelms the spleens containment function by its frenetic activity. It is not a case of vacuity, but of a relative excess the trounces the bodies ability to regulate itself. The violence of the symptoms reflects the large volume of qi that has been liberated by the heat. The blood and qi work as a unit, when their connection is destroyed blood becomes stasis blood (which may or may not be able to be reactivated as a useful substance*) and qi becomes wind. I don't think that qi becomes fatigued, it is just energy. It can become blocked, stagnated or dispersed.

Xie qi can corrupt zheng qi by creating an imbalnace between yin and yang or qi and blood. When qi and blood are separated that qi becomes xie (as its zheng nature is to be with blood).

I guess the question is, what makes qi our qi, versus tian qi, or xie qi? I think it is related to a persons ability to identify with the energy. Many daoist meditations are focused on making connections with the universe, and projecting the mind to the ends of space. I think that this is an effort to align oneself with the qi of the cosmos, and once that is accomplished one has as much energy as one needs. In martial qi gong people become adept at absorbing energy that would otherwise cause physical harm and either projecting it out again or dispersing it. I think we can have the same relationship with environmental energies, though I suppose it is a matter of some cultivation!

The similarities with the art of war are interesting, I haven't read it, but I assume that they are both based on yin yang and ba gua theory, so at root they are the same idea. In the Three Kingdoms there are all of these daoist characters running around as military advisors, and, while partially they assist their emperors with magic, they also have that instinctive sense of the dao and yin/yang which allows them to overcome opposing armies.

Obviously these are my own opinions, and as my experience is very limited I wouldn't claim any great authority.

Par Scott

*I have found myself giving more and more credence to schools of thought that see stasis as the main source of aging symptoms. It is interesting to look at formulas that treat stasis/stagnation and look at the two possibilities. One can either energize and reincorporate the static, or one can purge the stasis/stagnation. There are some parallels in Western medicine, such as arteriosclerosis, antioxidant therapy, and the progressive shift of the body's moisture content as we age. I don't have it here, but there was a report released some time ago after a heat wave in Chicago, where a great number of people were admitted to hospital for heat exhaustion and dehydration. Most were deemed to have fully recovered when they were sent home, but almost all of them were dead with in year of complications. The fluid component was piped in, but nothing was done to treat the stasis issues that resulted from this drying out.

Thank you very much for your feedback regarding Wind. I found the idea of Wind being untamed Qi very interesting. But what makes Qi wild Wind? Is it it's detachment from Blood, which is the mother or is it the exhaustion Qi may feel after being attacked by evil Qi? Can it therefore be corrupted by evil Qi? Your ideas of Ying and Wei fit well with `the art of war'. I find that there seem to be great similarities between TCM and `the art of war'. Chiefly because fighting evil and creating health or peace is a war between good and evil. As to the Ba Gua, I'll have to look into that a little more. Attiilio

July 25, 2003

Sorry Alon, my recollection was rather vastly exagerated, but it is still interesting, I apologize. I'll read before I quote next time.

Near-fatal heat stroke during the 1995 heat wave in Chicago.Dematte JE, O'Mara K, Buescher J, Whitney CG, Forsythe S, McNamee T, Adiga RB, Ndukwu IM.Michael Reese Hospital and Medical Center, University of Illinois at Chicago, 60521, USA.BACKGROUND: In July 1995, Chicago sustained a heat wave that resulted in more than 600 excess deaths, 3300 excess emergency department visits, and a substantial number of intensive care unit admissions for near-fatal heat stroke. OBJECTIVE: To describe the clinical features of patients admitted to an intensive care unit with near-fatal classic heat stroke. Patients were followed for 1 year to assess delayed functional outcome and mortality. DESIGN: Observational study. SETTING: Intensive care units in the Chicago area. PATIENTS: 58 patients admitted to the hospital from 12 July to 20 July 1995 who met the case definition of classic heat stroke. MEASUREMENTS: The data collection tool was designed to compile demographic and survival data and to permit analysis of organ system function by abstracting data on physical examination findings, electrocardiography and echocardiography results, fluid resuscitation, radiography results, and laboratory findings. Data on functional status at discharge and at 1 year were collected by using a modified Stanford Health Assessment Questionnaire. RESULTS: Patients experienced multiorgan dysfunction with neurologic impairment (100%), moderate to severe renal insufficiency (53%), disseminated intravascular coagulation (45%), and the acute respiratory distress syndrome (10%). Fifty-seven percent of patients had evidence of infection on admission. In-hospital mortality was 21%. Most survivors recovered near-normal renal, hematologic, and respiratory status, but disability persisted, resulting in moderate to severe functional impairment in 33% of patients at hospital discharge. At 1 year, no patient had improved functional status, and an additional 28% of patients had died. CONCLUSIONS: Near-fatal classic heat stroke is associated with multiorgan dysfunction. A high percentage of patients had infection at presentation. A high mortality rate was observed during acute hospitalization and at 1 year. In addition, substantial functional impairment at discharge persisted 1 year. The degree of functional disability correlated highly with survival at 1 year.PMID: 9696724 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-

Alon Marcus

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:49 PM

Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info

I don't have it here, but there was a report released some time ago after a heat wave in Chicago, where a great number of people were admitted to hospital for heat exhaustion and dehydration. Most were deemed to have fully recovered when they were sent home, but almost all of them were dead with in year of complications. The fluid component was piped in, but nothing was done to treat the stasis issues that resulted from this drying out.

>>>If you can find please post it. Sounds very interesting

alon

July 25, 2003

Thank you Persis for your feedback. I am very much into

the 'spiritual' aspect of TCM and will try to reflect that more in

my writings.

Thank you for your comments

Attilio

Chinese Medicine , " pointedneedle "

<pointedneedle> wrote:

>

> Hello Attilio (and hello everyone)

>

> My first time here, so please bear with me.

>

> Attilio

> Regarding your request below, I simply wanted to pass on my

thoughts

> on how you might collate additional material on the subject of

wind

> for your article.

>

> If it were I contemplating such an article... or indeed on any of

our

> wonderful elements, i would choose to include my 'observations' of

> it. What I would want to look for is how the wind behaves in our

> environment; how it interacts with trees and the earth, the metal

> that surrounds our urban lives (you should see the rusty old heaps

> around where i work!) the sea (or in my case a canal) and what it

can

> do to and for fire.

>

> Then by thinking of the organs that the elements relate to (both

yin

> and yang) and overlaying how wind would, lets say 'interface' with

> them.... how then does the body (dys)function and how can an

> acupuncture needle/point help calm that dysfunction.... etc.

>

> I hope this has made some sense, it has to me on many an ocassion,

> where I have sort to find the answer to someone's ailment at a

> spiritual AND physical level and found it in the law of nature.

>

> I look forward to reading your article. Good luck.

>

> Best wishes to all

> Persis

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> >

> > Hi all.

> >

> > I'm trying to write an article on Wind and boy did i pick a

> > difficult subject. Has anyone got any info on Wind other than

> what's

> > in the standard textbooks?

> >

> > Attilio

July 26, 2003

The concepts of ying/construction and wei/defense are clearly related

to the ideas presented in Sun Zi's " Art of War " . There is a book

published by New World Press entitled " Sun Zi's Art of War and Health

Care: Military Science and Medical Science " that explores these

metaphors in depth.

On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 03:05 AM, wrote:

> Hi Par,

>

> Thank you very much for your feedback regarding Wind. I found the

> idea of Wind being untamed Qi very interesting. But what makes Qi

> wild Wind? Is it it's detachment from Blood, which is the mother or

> is it the exhaustion Qi may feel after being attacked by evil Qi?

> Can it therefore be corrupted by evil Qi?

>

> Your ideas of Ying and Wei fit well with `the art of war'. I find

> that there seem to be great similarities between TCM and `the art of

> war'. Chiefly because fighting evil and creating health or peace is

> a war between good and evil.

>

> As to the Ba Gua, I'll have to look into that a little more.

>

> Attiilio

>

July 26, 2003

Z'ev, Par, and All,

One of the things that caught my interest

some time ago with respect to the understanding

of Chinese medical terminology is the fact that

several words which serve pretty basic roles

in Chinese medical thinking, such as yin and yang,

qi, xu and shi, to name just a very few of the

most obvious and basic, actually seem to have

developed their own intrinsic meanings before

and outside of their usages in Chinese medicine.

No doubt many might find this fact to

be worthy of no more than a big ho hum

as they rush on towards ever greater

clinical efficacy. But I've always thought

that if one wanted to develop a firm

and durable grasp of the fundamentals

of the subject of tradtional Chinese

medicine, one should be able to get a grip

on the basic meanings of the words that

are used to define and describe medical

ideas, the body, and its various relationships

both internally and externally.

Lo and behold, The Art of War is a

relatively early appearance, at least

in terms of the written record that has

survived in some sort of verifiable tact

until today, of terms like ying and wei,

xu and shi, etc.; and the meanings associated

with such terms in the context of warfare

and military strategy have left a deep

impression on Chinese medical thought.

This is discussed at some length, albeit

altogether superficially, in the fourth

chapter of Who Can Ride the Dragon?

And I'm happy to get into it to whatever

extent there is interest. Perhaps it's

an aspect of the study of Chinese medicine

that others find dull, boring, and not

pertinent to the gritty reality of the

every day struggle for survival in the

clinic.

But I dig it.

Ken

PS. Attilio, you might want to play with

metaphors of war and medicine related to

" wind " .

July 26, 2003

Thank you Z'ev. I've been looking for a book that relates the art of

war to TCM. At the moment i have Shambhala's version which is good

but will definitely hunt down the copy you suggested as i had the

idea of comparing TCM to war some years ago and would appreciate a

book the brings these two concepts together.

I'll also be tracking down Ken's book Who Can Ride the Dragon? I

have so much info now i think i can write my dissertation on Wind.

Attilio

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> The concepts of ying/construction and wei/defense are clearly

> published by New World Press entitled " Sun Zi's Art of War and

Health

> Care: Military Science and Medical Science " that explores these

> metaphors in depth.

>

> On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 03:05 AM, wrote:

>

> > Hi Par,

> >

> > Thank you very much for your feedback regarding Wind. I found the

> > idea of Wind being untamed Qi very interesting. But what makes Qi

> > wild Wind? Is it it's detachment from Blood, which is the mother

or

> > is it the exhaustion Qi may feel after being attacked by evil Qi?

> > Can it therefore be corrupted by evil Qi?

> >

> > Your ideas of Ying and Wei fit well with `the art of war'. I find

> > that there seem to be great similarities between TCM and `the

art of

> > war'. Chiefly because fighting evil and creating health or peace

is

> > a war between good and evil.

> >

> > As to the Ba Gua, I'll have to look into that a little more.

> >

> > Attiilio

> >

July 26, 2003

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> PS. Attilio, you might want to play with

> metaphors of war and medicine related to

> " wind " .

The Art of War deals in depth on the importance of wind when

attacking the enemy by fire. I'm sure that plenty of useful metaphors

on " wind " and " fire " could be extracted from Zi's classic.

Fernando

July 27, 2003

Ken:

Z'ev, Par, and All,One of the things that caught my interestsome time ago with respect to the understandingof Chinese medical terminology is the fact thatseveral words which serve pretty basic rolesin Chinese medical thinking, such as yin and yang,qi, xu and shi, to name just a very few of themost obvious and basic, actually seem to havedeveloped their own intrinsic meanings beforeand outside of their usages in Chinese medicine.

Marco:

and with in this lies the strength of chinese medicine...

Ken:No doubt many might find this fact tobe worthy of no more than a big ho humas they rush on towards ever greaterclinical efficacy. But I've always thoughtthat if one wanted to develop a firm and durable grasp of the fundamentalsof the subject of tradtional Chinesemedicine, one should be able to get a gripon the basic meanings of the words thatare used to define and describe medicalideas, the body, and its various relationshipsboth internally and externally.

Marco:

Why? whould one find it "ho hum"?

when the only colective expereicne is by means of thooughts and ideas expreses verbaly or wiritten (either way by words...)

Lo and behold, The Art of War is arelatively early appearance, at leastin terms of the written record that hassurvived in some sort of verifiable tactuntil today, of terms like ying and wei,xu and shi, etc.; and the meanings associatedwith such terms in the context of warfareand military strategy have left a deepimpression on Chinese medical thought.This is discussed at some length, albeitaltogether superficially, in the fourthchapter of Who Can Ride the Dragon?

Marco:

I am still at the stage before crawling and then will try to put into españiol...

xu and shi, etc.; and the meanings associatedwith such terms in the context of warfareand military strategy have left a deepimpression on Chinese medical thought.This is discussed at some length, albeitaltogether superficially, in the fourthchapter of Who Can Ride the Dragon?

Marco:

I am still at the stage before crawling and then will try to put into españiol...

And I'm happy to get into it to whateverextent there is interest. Perhaps it'san aspect of the study of Chinese medicinethat others find dull, boring, and not pertinent to the gritty reality of theevery day struggle for survival in theclinic.

Marco:

"Boring"? my foot...

Looking foward to meet you...

July 27, 2003

Dear ken and Attilio...

Attilio,> > Thank you Ken for your feedback. I was suppose to say thank you to > you yesterday but made a mistake and typed Scott, sorry. > You're very welcome and no problem. Musthave been quite a case of food poisoning.Are you feeling better?> As far as I was taught, when Wind attacks the external body it is > actually Wind and when it's inside the body it is also Wind. When > you say it is a metaphor, what is the metaphor replacing? If it's > not Wind, what is it?

Ken:

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask,What is wind? I mean the actual phenomenonin the atmosphere? Wind comes about as a result of differentialsin pressure that exist between cells of airthat form in the atmosphere. We often talkabout wind "blowing" but wind is actuallymore the result of suction. Areas of relativelylow pressure suck in air from areas of relativelyhigh pressure and, voila, wind.Of course it comes in all shapes and sizes.

Marco:

hate to be a bore but what is it in eyes of the beholder namely Chinese medicine?

your paragraph above is all very well, if one to post qing understanding of the world i.e. western...

but how did and does Chinese medicine conceive of wind?

or where they aware of pressure and Calvin? (although doubt it...)

About a year ago or so I was standing onthe Pont des Arts behind the Louvre inParis and watching the wind scud acrossthe surface of the Seine. A constantly changing pattern of ripples in the waterwas left where the atmosphere and thehydrosphere intersected or maybe it'sbetter to say rubbed up against each other.And in the patterns of changing patternsI began to recognize an emerging regularitythat I realized is more or less what theChinese word jing (as in jing luo) means,a warp that runs through a piece of fabric,for example.

Marco:

fascinating indeed could you elaborate please....

Ken:

I saw this whole scene as a great illustrationof what the concept of qi is all aboutand gained an appreciation of the sourceof the notion of making maps of these kindsof interactive potentials and projectingthem onto the body.

Marco:

Why? why did you gain this appreciation?

interactive potentials can you elaborate as it sounds like a root in Chinese medicine:-)

Now, where is the metaphor?A metaphor is simply the coaxing of meaningout of words by comparing word/objects thatare unlike each other in order to provoke an awareness that is contained in neither one but which only emerges from the interaction of the two.

Marco:

"that begins to articulate the manifestation in the two..."

ken:

Gee, this is kind of a subtle point; and I'mnot sure I've done a very good job of sayingwhat I mean. And perhaps that's why I'msuggesting that take a look at this statusof "wind" as a metaphor, i.e., I need helpto be able to both understand and explainit more simply and clearly.That's my ulterior motive.> Yes, I think I came up with the idea of Wind being the Yang aspect > of air. But it is very motional and is therefore Yang as everything > can be divided into Yin and Yang and it seems to be more Yang than > Yin. But I do take-on-board your comments about it being problematic > when Wind results in a Yin pathology.I just keep thinking of that line fromthe Taiji Classics that states that eachplace in the body has the same xu and shi,or, in other words, yin and yang.

Marco:

Depending of needle method with regard to needling?

August 5, 2003

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

good work! i'm sorry for my bad english, english is not my mothor

tongue. may i add some explanations for your work.

>

> Introduction

>

> Wind in western terms is often embraced during a hot summers day,

> used in-doors via a fan to cool us down and also used as a form of

> entertainment i.e. flying a kite or wind-surfing. From the view of

> Traditional (TCM), the idea of exposing yourself

> unnecessarily to Wind is dangerous to the balance of Yin, Yang, Qi

> and Blood. In ancient China, the T'ai-I soothsayers utilised belief

> in the eight palaces in the eight principal directions of the

> compass, which T'ai-I would occupy in a certain order on the so-

> called pa-cheng dates, namely, the first day of spring, summer,

> autumn, and winter, the autumn and spring equinoxes, as well as the

> winter and summer solstices. If the Wind on these days came from the

> direction in which T'ai-i happened to be residing, it was the so-

> called Wind of repletion and was considered an auspicious omen. If

> the Wind blew from the opposite direction, however, it was regarded

> as an unfavourable sign (Unschuld 1985, p68-9).

>

tai-i is the name of a star near the north-pole. tai-i represented the

north-pole, and represented earth's rotation axis and also represented

the ecliptic's axis in ancient times based on geocentric model. it

also was named " heavenly first one " etc. you might find some

informations on astronomy pages on my website. this axis generates

days and nights and seasons, so some religions see it as god. climate

is the meaning of " wind " here.

btw, to beginners, yin and yang are two natures of one unity, not two

forces pushing and pulling each others. for example, if patient has

symptom of strong yang, maybe the yang is too strong, maybe the yin is

weakened therefore the patient has false symptom of strong yang.

sometimes, we should not apply or connect one theory to various

studies. for example, here is one, yang has reached its peak then it

begins to wane. according to this theory, should we cure the patient

who has symptom of extreme yang? the patient may be killed by extreme

yang before the yang begins to wane. the above mentioned theory can be

applied to astronomy phenomena and yi (the change) and philosophy, but

cannot be apllied to medicine.

> As a spirit or demon, the Wind resided, according to various

> indications in Han and pre-Han literature, in caves, tunnels, or

> valleys. These terms are also used in acupuncture literature to

> designate those holes in the skin through which the so-called Qi is

> able to penetrate into the body (as well as flow out) and at which

> it was deemed necessary to apply needles in order to influence the

> inner Qi. This represents another significant step that marked the

> entire subsequent history of medical therapy of systematic

> correspondence (Unschuld 1985, p71). The illness-causing potential

> of Wind marks a transition, during the final two or three centuries

> B.C. from demonological concepts to an idea of influences and

> emanations originating from the natural environment of substances

> (Unschuld 1985, p68). Wind, Damp, Dryness, Cold, Heat and Summer

> Heat are the six climatic changes found in nature. Under normal

> conditions, they do not produce pathological changes in the body and

> are thus known as the `six types of Qi' (Cheng 1999, p254). These

> six types of Qi will only cause disease if either the climatic

> changes are extreme or sudden, or if the body's resistance is low.

> When responsible for inducing disease, these six types of Qi are

> known as the `six exogenous pathogenic factors', all of which can

> damage Yin and Yang, Qi and Blood. Wind is the most well known

> pathogen in TCM and heads the six exogenous factors. I shall

> therefore restrict the focus of this paper to Wind.

>

at the heaven, there are five seasons, each season has its character.

we distinguished them into metal, wood, water, fire and earth. on the

earth, there are six climates corresponding to five seasons, they are

also known six qi. the theroy " wuyun liuqi " is based on the above

mentioned five characters and six qi.

syho

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