Paradigms of evidence

August 10, 2003

Emperor's College funds my presence in the AAOM by allowing substantial amounts of time from my workload in service to the profession. They have also funded me to attend the Little Hoover Commission and the Visioning Search task force - these are vital to the shape this profession will take in the near future and take considerable amounts of time.

>>>And i can testify to the tremendous time and energy Will spends at contributing to the profession in ways that have nothing to do with his schools or personal benefit

Alon

August 10, 2003

and there are many wonderfulcranio-osteopaths,those who follow the path of Sutherland in researchand practice, >>>

If they are so called Cranio-osteopaths the are not osteopaths as i see it as a good osteopath has to understand all the systems of the body. The cranial system is only one and not appropriate to all patients

Alon

August 10, 2003

And practically, don't mostosteopaths practice as wannabe MDs? With all due respect, it is myimpression, from what I have read and seen, that no system is ascompletely integrative in its foundation as traditional Chinese medicine.Now mind you, I speak primarily of diagnosis, philosophy andterminology. In terms of treatment, I think that especially here in theWest, we have available all kinds of wonderful alternative treatmentscan be integrated to augment our success as practitioners. However, Istand by my original contention that philosophically our medicine isunique and different.

<<<<<<If we are speaking or reality than i would have to say that almost all TCM practitioners that I have seen in the US, China and Japan (the only places i have studied) practice palliative care. At the same time because i have spent so much time studying osteopathy in the last 12 years i know quite a few osteopaths that practice very holistically. The take the spirit, emotional, nutritional, somatic in all its systems, environmental factors when they treat real patients. They choose from nutritional, manual (bodywork), surgical, invasive procedures including ways of using acupuncture, and internal therapies including the use of drugs. These as as holistic of complete as any CM practitioner i have seen in the last 20 years working and studying CM. I am not saying the CM is not unique and different, i am saying it is not the only system that views the body in holistic ways and treats the patient in holistic ways. I would also say the beyond lingo one can find tremendous similarities between such systems

Alon

August 10, 2003

The point I got from Yehuda's e-mail was not that the philosophical model of osteopathy wasn't holistic, but its present-day practice. I know a few osteopaths who do practice according to the underlying principles, but most are just using medications.>>>>Zev like i said the overwhelming majority of TCM practitioner practice palliative care. If you go to China town and go into an herb store and see the herbalist you will only get some herb packages to drink. Will be told to avoid cold foods or some kind of simplistic nutritional advise and told to keep calm and not to worry. This is true for the overwhelming patient encounters in Chinese hospitals and LAc practices. Real life practice is usually very different that the nice philosophical ideas. Even allopathic medicine is philosophically holistic

Alon

August 10, 2003

I have become aware that entire three hour> points classes have been devoted to muscle testing

>>>>>Why in a point location class. Does pecom have a physical exam class? or don't you think that neurological exams should be taught?

Alon

August 10, 2003

The key point is that Chinese medicine has the POTENTIAL to be

holistic. But in order to do so, one must take time with the patient,

and address as many issues as possible, including lifetstyle and diet.

Also, a comprehensive diagnosis must be done. We can't just rush

patients in and out. This leads to palliative care. You are right,

Alon, a majority of CM practitioners practice palliative care.

On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 11:55 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

> The point I got from Yehuda's e-mail was not that the philosophical

> model of osteopathy wasn't holistic, but its present-day practice. I

> know a few osteopaths who do practice according to the underlying

> principles, but most are just using medications.

> >>>>Zev like i said the overwhelming majority of TCM practitioner

> practice palliative care. If you go to China town and go into an herb

> store and see the herbalist you will only get some herb packages to

> drink. Will be told to avoid cold foods or some kind of simplistic

> nutritional advise and told to keep calm and not to worry. This is

> true for the overwhelming patient encounters in Chinese hospitals and

> LAc practices. Real life practice is usually very different that the

> nice philosophical ideas. Even allopathic medicine is philosophically

> holistic

> Alon

>

<image.tiff>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

August 10, 2003

The key point is that Chinese medicine has the POTENTIAL to be holistic

>>>I am ok with that as long as we acknowledge that this is also true for allopathic and most other types of medicine

Alon

August 10, 2003

Alon,

I suggest that you read from the works of William G Sutherland before you

dismiss out of hand the role of the cranium in classical osteopathy.

Sutherland, a osteopath, did pioneering work, and wrote extensively, on

the movement of the cranial bones at the cranial sutures, and their

impact on the body, between 1910 and 1940. His research is continued

today at the cranial academy, I believe in Chicago. This is not " so

called " osteopathy, but a very legitimate and widely practiced discipline

within mainstream osteopathy, with wide application. You can verify the

above from any knowledgeable osteopath who practices osteopathic

manipulation. I invite you to verify the above before you comment

further.

Yehuda

PS. Please note though, again, that cranio-osteopathy is not craniosacral

therapy.

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August 10, 2003

what can I say, we disagree, as I see them as very similar to the

eclectic physicians of the late 1800s, and the hygienists of the early

20th century (the antecedents of today's naturopaths), and for that

matter, today's " mixer " chiropractors, who used a number of different

therapies, to treat symptoms, and allow the body to heal itself.

However, to reiterate, the key word is eclectic. No methodology of

determining a differential diagnosis nor multisystemic pattern . But

enough of this, yes?

Yehuda

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August 11, 2003

Hi all, as I practise cranio-sacral in the osteopathic system, that is I treat through the craniosacral movements throughout the whole body, in all the joints and bones, I have a question for those who are acquainted to the cranio-sacral theory and research: has anybody shown scientifically that the cranial bones really move, or is it "just" energetic movements?

Are

Are Simeon Thoresenarethorehttp://home.online.no/~arethore/

-

yehuda l frischman

Monday, August 11, 2003 4:29 AM

Re: Re: Paradigms of evidence

Alon, I suggest that you read from the works of William G Sutherland before youdismiss out of hand the role of the cranium in classical osteopathy. Sutherland, a osteopath, did pioneering work, and wrote extensively, onthe movement of the cranial bones at the cranial sutures, and theirimpact on the body, between 1910 and 1940. His research is continuedtoday at the cranial academy, I believe in Chicago. This is not "socalled" osteopathy, but a very legitimate and widely practiced disciplinewithin mainstream osteopathy, with wide application. You can verify theabove from any knowledgeable osteopath who practices osteopathicmanipulation. I invite you to verify the above before you commentfurther.YehudaPS. Please note though, again, that cranio-osteopathy is not craniosacraltherapy.______________The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

August 11, 2003

At 6:03 PM -0500 8/10/03, Alon Marcus wrote:

>The key point is that Chinese medicine has the POTENTIAL to be holistic

> >>>I am ok with that as long as we acknowledge that this is also

>true for allopathic and most other types of medicine

--

Yes, and surely the main factor determining the holism of a practice

is the orientation the practitioner, rather than the theory of the

medicine they practice. Sure, some theories are more obviously

holistic, but even a brain surgeon could approach their patients in a

holistic way, if they were so inclined.

Rory

--

August 11, 2003

That is exactly what Upledger proved in his published research in the 70s

and 80s at the university of Michigan. Furthermore, Italian phyiology

and anatomy has always taught that the cranial bones move, and is not

merely energetic. I suggest reading: " Your Inner Physician and you " , and

" CranioSacral Therapy I " both by John Upledger, DO., and widely

available, and check out his web site: www.upledger.com.

Yehuda Frischman

Los Angeles

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August 11, 2003

Two questions:

1. How could an allopathic brain surgeon (look up the meaning of

allopathic) possibly take a holistic approach to removing a tumor?

2. If you want to say that the ideal is medicine that is concerned with

promoting wellness and balance, than rather than promoting a " holistic

approach " , ie, using gentle natural means to heal individual parts of

the body or emotions, perhaps you could answer, yes, a

brain surgeon could be holistic, but how can you possibly even think

that such a practitioner could be considered " wholistic " --treating the

whole person, or integrative? That's the difference!

Yehuda

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August 11, 2003

Warren, Z'ev and PCOMers-

Students don't complain because they don't know what

they need to know, and what its superfluous to the

practice of . They depend upon the

school - teachers, administrators, and deans - to

decide what is important and give them an opportunity

to learn it. It is ironic to expect someone who is

just learning something to know what is essential and

what is not. Students cannot be good consumers of

education until after they have studied and practiced

a bit - only then will they be able to discern what

has been of value in their education, and what has

been unimportant. Having mentors outside of the

school, with whom to discuss their studies, may be

helpful in this issue.

--- Julie Chambers <info wrote:

> Warren, Z'ev and others at PCOM: why don't the

> students complain to the

> Dean, and why doesn't the Dean visit the classrooms

> to make sure what is

> going on in there? Do students fill out evaluation

> forms? Why would such a

> professor be allowed to teach once it were known

> that he/she taught three

> hours of muscle testing instead of acupuncture

> points?

>

> Julie

>

> > Warren,

> > I wasn't aware of this situation, and I am

> very disappointed to hear

> > it. I agree 100% we should be teaching core

> Chinese medical cirriculum

> > first, with the other stuff as dessert.

> >

> > On Saturday, August 9, 2003, at 11:54 PM, wsheir

> wrote:

> >

> > > Z'ev:

> > > On more than one occasion within the last couple

> of months (and this

> > > happens on a regular basis)I have become aware

> that entire three hour

> > > points classes have been devoted to muscle

> testing. Now you can think

> > > what you will about muscle testing but we teach

> in a school where the

> > > students' hands on Chinese Medical diagnostic

> skills are woefully

> > > lacking.And they are the first to admit it.How

> about a three hour

> > > class in pulse diagnosis or abdominal palpation,

> etc? Also the entire

> > > orthopedic acu class(42 hours)is based on motor

> point theory, not TCM

> > > channel theory, which the students are never

> exposed to hands on. I

> > > could go on and on. I think you get my point.

> I'm for teaching Chinese

> > > medicine in a Chinese medicine school. If

> students want to do outside

> > > workshops on whatever, that's on them. But they

> first need to learn

> > > Chinese medicine, and with all the western

> medicine now getting thrown

> > > at Pcom students I am seeing a generally more

> intelligent group of

> > > students leaving school with minimal

> understanding of Chinese

> > > medicine.

> > > Warren

>

August 11, 2003

Alon, I suggest that you read from the works of William G Sutherland before youdismiss out of hand the role of the cranium in classical osteopathy. Sutherland, a osteopath, did pioneering work, and wrote extensively, onthe movement of the cranial bones at the cranial sutures, and theirimpact on the body, between 1910 and 1940.

>>>>I practice cranial work every day. It is extremely important part of osteopathy. What I am saying is that if that is all one does, to me that is not being a good osteopath. To be good one must know how to treat all the systems

Alon

August 12, 2003

In a message dated 8/12/2003 2:21:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:

1. How could an allopathic brain surgeon (look up the meaning of

allopathic) possibly take a holistic approach to removing a tumor?

2. If you want to say that the ideal is medicine that is concerned with

promoting wellness and balance, than rather than promoting a "holistic

approach" , ie, using gentle natural means to heal individual parts of

the body or emotions, perhaps you could answer, yes, a

brain surgeon could be holistic, but how can you possibly even think

that such a practitioner could be considered "wholistic"--treating the

whole person, or integrative? That's the difference!

Yehuda

You seem to have a strong feeling about this.

What if the brain surgeon treated according to patterns using both eastern and western knowledge before surgery, decided the safest course of action was to remove the tumor then continued to treat according to patterns using both western and eastern knowledge.

I really don't understand why you would ask this question. Clearly, most Dr.s trained in the allopathic modalities continue to treat according to that philosophy. Clearly, there are others that abandon allopathy model as the only approach and become fully trained acupuncturists. If a brain surgeon who embodies the wisdom of acupuncture realizes that removing a tumor is the best course of action, then maybe it is.

That to me that is a real holistic medicine. An addition, doesn't holistic medicine infer the outcome of wellness and balance? I have never heard of a holistic protocol that this wasn't the desire.

Chris

August 12, 2003

Dear Are,

All the references you need are mentioned in the two aforementioned

books: The continued movement of the cranial sutures, and that they do

not ossify shortly after birth, is antecdotally discussed in " Your inner

Physician and you, " where Dr. Upledger discusses the work of Professor

Guiseppe Sperino, an Italian anatomist from the early 20th century. He

says, " skull bones continue to move on in relationship to the other

throughout life except under abnormal and/or pathological conditions. "

Again, I strongly recommend reading that book, but even more importantly,

a number of scholarly published articles, proving biomechanically, and

through electric charge differential upon the release of stuck sutures,

that they do move, are reproduced in the appendices of " Cranisacral

Therapy " , by Upledger and Vredevoogd, and published by Eastland Press

(Dan Bensky's publisher.

If that's not good enough, I'll get you the article names and journals.

Best wishes,

Yehuda

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August 12, 2003

If you want to say that the ideal is medicine that is concerned withpromoting wellness and balance, than rather than promoting a "holisticapproach" , ie, using gentle natural means to heal individual parts ofthe body or emotions, perhaps you could answer, yes, a brain surgeon could be holistic, but how can you possibly even thinkthat such a practitioner could be considered "wholistic"--treating thewhole person, or integrative? That's the difference! >>>>If you have a patient with acute appendicitis and you try to treat it with CM do you treat the patients Zheng Qi? No you use attacking methods. These are often not gentle at all. I do not know if you ever seen CM treat acute life treating diseases but that is what i went to china to learn and have seen it in action.

A brain surgeon is an allopathic attack Dr most of the time, some times they can for example implant electrodes and treat disorders such as Parkinson's better than any CM can. Look at Mao and how well CM did. So if you look for holistic approach you need to look at the whole system not one Dr role in the chain.

Alon

August 12, 2003

Hi Andrea,

Welcome to the group.

>

> Students don't complain because they don't know what

> they need to know, and what its superfluous to the

> practice of . They depend upon the

> school - teachers, administrators, and deans - to

> decide what is important and give them an opportunity

> to learn it. It is ironic to expect someone who is

> just learning something to know what is essential and

> what is not.

I must disagree with you. As a former dean and a current teacher (and

obviously I was a student), I expect that students can look at the course

syllabus, which should have been previously approved by the school's dean,

and they can see that in week such-and-such, the lung channel will be

covered, and instead, the teacher spent three hours teaching muscle testing.

Students certainly should have that much experience and curiosity!

Especially since they are the consumers. But of course I expect the Dean to

keep an eye on such things, by discussing curriculum in faculty meetings and

by visiting classrooms. These are the kinds of things that accreditation

site visitors look for as well: is the syllabus detailed enough so that

weekly topics are clearly stated? Does the instructor adhere to the

syllabus? Are the objectives of the class being met? If " muscle testing " is

not stated on the syllabus as part of the information to be taught in a

points class, then the teacher has no business teaching it.

Julie

August 12, 2003

Yehuda -

Allopathy is a VERY commonly misunderstood/misused word. The OED

says:

The curing of a diseased action by the inducing of another of a different

kind, yet not necessarily diseased. A term applied by homeopath to

the ordinary or traditional medical practice and to a certain extent in

common use to distinguish it from homeopathy.

Allopathy is NOT a bad word, nor does the practice of allopathy apply

solely to those who practice biomedicine. In fact, according to the

definition, we are allopaths. Essentially, it means that a

practitioner uses the opposite to treat a condition, i.e. using warm

medicinals to treat cold conditions, rather than using the same or like

to treat a condition as the homeopaths do.

At 08:14 AM 8/11/2003 -0700, you wrote:

Two questions:

1. How could an allopathic brain surgeon (look up the meaning

of

allopathic) possibly take a holistic approach to removing a

tumor?

2. If you want to say that the ideal is medicine that is concerned

with

promoting wellness and balance, than rather than promoting a

" holistic

approach " , ie, using gentle natural means to heal individual parts

of

the body or emotions, perhaps you could answer, yes, a

brain surgeon could be holistic, but how can you possibly even

think

that such a practitioner could be considered

" wholistic " --treating the

whole person, or integrative? That's the difference!

Yehuda

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up today!

August 12, 2003

Dear Chris,

Let me clarify my opinion. I specifically emphasize the term wholistic

(whole) as opposed to holistic (health) for a reason. G-d willing, as

our world becomes more and more enlightened, we will see more brain

surgeons who operate from the perspective of removing that which causes

harm and promoting health as well. The truth is that today, it is more

and more commonplace for an allopathic physician to use naturopathic

healing modalities in their reportoir. But I am saying something

additional: that a real wholistic physician must be concerned with

1)Identifying and determining the root of the pathogenic influence

locally and globally, 2)choosing a therapy to eliminate the pathogen

while considering how the therapy will affect the soma, again locally and

globally, 3) determining how to rebuilt the patient as a whole, meaning

directly where the pathogen attacked, and indirectly, how the pathogen

manifested itself on other systems within the body. This is an

integrative wholistic strategy which I believe is quite different from

natural or holistic medicine (ie. " take this herb, it will help such and

such a problem " ). I really haven't seen satisfactory evidence that any

system other than Oriental medicine does all of the above: pattern

differentiation, treat the acute disorder first, address the root,

constantly modify the therapy as the body's signs change.

Please forgive my passion, but I really feel that we ARE different.

Sincerely,

Yehuda

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August 13, 2003

Dear Marnae,

I understood allopathy as you have quoted, or as Stedman's medical

dictionary says, " Substitutive therapy; a therapeutic system in which a

disease is treated by producing a second condition that is incompatible

with or ANTAGONISTIC (my caps) to the first. "

Again, the problem I have with the majority of MDs is that their

therapies are antagonistic, to kill the condition (which too often,

unfortunately, also kills the patient), rather than integrate allopathy

into a wholistic and holistic approach to support the whole body and

" first do no harm. "

I just sent another post which addresses this issue to Chris, so please

refer to that for elaboration.

Thanks for your feedback.

Yehuda

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August 13, 2003

In a message dated 8/13/2003 2:21:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: