on the corner

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/23/2003 8:17:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

 

 

My teacher, Li Wei, was an Md specializing in renal pathology. she called DCXC herbal dialysis and said in some cases it could actually replace dialysis. she is a co-author of a new BP book on renal disease to be released in the future. she is also herb formulas teacher at OCOM for 10 years. I am sure she could help you. David Frierman on this list is her co-author. He also is in porltand.

 

-

 

My question was more a rhetorical response to Z'ev's post regarding no use of herbs in dialysis. I know practitioners who have successful weaned patients off of dialysis using DCXC. I will be interested in seeing Li Wei's book. So - based on your experience studying with her, are you confident using DCXC for a renal dialysis patient? I have also refused herbal treatment of renal dialysis patients at Emperor's College clinic due to med-legal risks.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

I am not personally, although dong chong xia cao is a great medicinal

for recovery from all types of surgery, exhaustion, and general life

downswings.

 

I wonder if there are any journal reports from China on the subject of

herbs and dialysis.

 

 

On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 12:58 AM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> In a message dated 7/22/2003 4:19:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> zrosenbe writes:

>

>

> First of all, I won't give herbs to anyone already on dialysis, and I

> am conservative with dosage and avoid toxic medicinals in patients with

> kidney disorders.

>

>

>

> Z'ev are you or is anuone else familiar with the use of dong chong xia

> cao in hemodialysis patients?

>

> Will

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/22/2003 4:19:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> zrosenbe@s... writes:

>

>

> > First of all, I won't give herbs to anyone already on dialysis, and I

> > am conservative with dosage and avoid toxic medicinals in patients with

> > kidney disorders.

> >

>

> Z'ev are you or is anuone else familiar with the use of dong chong xia cao in

> hemodialysis patients?

>

> Will

 

My teacher, Li Wei, was an Md specializing in renal pathology. she called DCXC

herbal dialysis and said in some cases it could actually replace dialysis. she

is

a co-author of a new BP book on renal disease to be released in the future. she

is also herb formulas teacher at OCOM for 10 years. I am sure she could help

you. David Frierman on this list is her co-author. He also is in porltand.

 

[Guest guest]

Were they weaned off dialysis by restoring function to the kidneys through

herbal supplementation? What was happening physiologically? How was this

measured?

 

Pat

 

 

 

WMorris116

M

 

cc:

Office: Re:

Re: on the corner

 

07/23/2003 11:24

AM

Please respond to

chineseherbacadem

y

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 7/23/2003 8:17:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

writes:

 

 

My teacher, Li Wei, was an Md specializing in renal pathology. she called

DCXC

herbal dialysis and said in some cases it could actually replace dialysis.

she is

a co-author of a new BP book on renal disease to be released in the

future. she

is also herb formulas teacher at OCOM for 10 years. I am sure she could

help

you. David Frierman on this list is her co-author. He also is in

porltand.

 

-

 

My question was more a rhetorical response to Z'ev's post regarding no use

of herbs in dialysis. I know practitioners who have successful weaned

patients off of dialysis using DCXC. I will be interested in seeing Li

Wei's book. So - based on your experience studying with her, are you

confident using DCXC for a renal dialysis patient? I have also refused

herbal treatment of renal dialysis patients at Emperor's College clinic due

to med-legal risks.

 

Will

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev are you or is anuone else familiar with the use of dong chong xia cao in hemodialysis patients? >>>I have used it on patients on dialysis and in those with very low renal function: it seems to be helpful and i have not noticed any problems

Alon

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/23/2003 8:17:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> @i... writes:

>

>

> > My teacher, Li Wei, was an Md specializing in renal pathology. she called

> > DCXC

> > herbal dialysis and said in some cases it could actually replace dialysis.

> > she is

> > a co-author of a new BP book on renal disease to be released in the future.

> > she

> > is also herb formulas teacher at OCOM for 10 years. I am sure she could

> > help

> > you. David Frierman on this list is her co-author. He also is in porltand.

> >

>

-

>

> My question was more a rhetorical response to Z'ev's post regarding no use of

> herbs in dialysis.

 

sorry, I missed most of the thread and just saw your question out of context.

 

So -

> based on your experience studying with her, are you confident using DCXC for

a

> renal dialysis patient?

 

 

no I am not, but I am confident that she is confident. :-)

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 11:41:56 AM, alonmarcus writes:

 

 

 

i do not know of any acupuncture modality where it would make sense to tx weekly for a year.

 

 

>>>The only thing to remember is that we cant heal everybody. Sometimes palliative care is warranted. If a patient is paying for his/her care i do not have any problems seeing him/her for as long as they want, as long as it is clear that all we are doing is palliative care and that no real change can be expected. To me that is key. The patient must understand that he/she is only getting temporary relief of symptoms, since all claims of preventative care are speculative at this point

 

Alon

 

Actually, in PA, there is case law which allows palliative care in workmen's compensation injuries, put thru by my WC mentor, a MD/acu who is a rehab specialist. Since I generally get patients after 2-5 years of treatment and several surgeries, and have a number of cases where the patient cannot function without regular treatment, with many driving 40 minutes to an hour for treatment. I have the patient go to their specialist (physiatrist/ neurologist/whatever) and get a continuing prescription for treatment every 1-3 months. In many cases, regular acupuncture is cheaper than the neurontin/vioxx/oxycontin cocktail they were on previously. I also refer to an addictions specialist to wean patients at the beginning.

Carriers complain, but I win in peer review and if not because they found some whore who feels they are better able to decide what is needed than the patient and the doctor when the case is not fraudulent, in court every time. Getting patients to reduce and many times stop drugs and to lead a somewhat normal lifestyle (sex is much better without analgesics and intense pain, which saves marriages) such as mowing lawns, driving themselves, and etc. has the judges on my side.

Of course I lost some thousands of dollars when Bethlehem Steel went under and screwed their creditors and pensioners, but such is life.

DAvid Molony

[Guest guest]

, acuman1@a... wrote:

> > Actually, in PA, there is case law which allows palliative care

in workmen's compensation injuries, put thru by my WC mentor, a

MD/acu who is a rehab specialist. Since I generally get patients

after 2-5 years of treatment and several surgeries, and have a

number of cases where the patient cannot function without regular

treatment, with many driving 40 minutes to an hour for treatment. I

> have the patient go to their specialist

(physiatrist/neurologist/whatever) and get a continuing prescription

for treatment every 1-3 months. In many cases, regular acupuncture

is cheaper than the neurontin/vioxx/oxycontin cocktail they were on

previously. I also refer to an addictions specialist to wean

patients at the beginning.

> Carriers complain, but I win in peer review and if not because

they found some whore who feels they are better able to decide what

is needed than the patient and the doctor when the case is not

fraudulent, in court every time.

> Getting patients to reduce and many times stop drugs and to lead a

somewhat normal lifestyle (sex is much better without analgesics and

intense pain, which saves marriages) such as mowing lawns, driving

themselves, and etc. has the judges on my side. >>>

 

 

David:

 

Thanks for posting this. It is exciting news for the profession that

we can develop a successful and beneficial role in WM institutions

like this. This probably points to the real future of CM in America.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, acuman1@a... wrote:> > Actually, in PA, there is case law which allows palliative care in workmen's compensation injuries, put thru by my WC mentor, a MD/acu who is a rehab specialist. Since I generally get patients after 2-5 years of treatment and several surgeries, and have a number of cases where the patient cannot function without regular treatment, with many driving 40 minutes to an hour for treatment. I

> Carriers complain, but I win in peer review and if not because they found some whore who feels they are better able to decide what is needed than the patient and the doctor when the case is not fraudulent, in court every time. David:Thanks for posting this. It is exciting news for the profession that we can develop a successful and beneficial role in WM institutions like this. This probably points to the real future of CM in America. Jim RamholzDavid and Jim,

 

It seems to me, and you may see this as well, that many HMOs (I'm especially thinking of Kaiser) no longer have WM at the center of their constellation. I'm not suggesting that MDs don't work there. I'm noting that the center of such institutions are insurance administrators who make decisions (for better or worse) about healthcare delivery for their institution. It's easier for them to open an Alternative Medicine Clinic which here in CA hires full on OMDs. A friend of mine named Diana Deng, OMD, has previously been faculty at the Oakland TCM school and worked together with me to author a book at Min Tong Herbs. She has been providing the full range of CM modalities at the Vallejo, CA Kaiser Alt. Med. Clinic over the past few years and keeps up her own office in Oakland. It also helps that she's a QME. HMOs see things in terms of dollars and efficacy, so they are not attached to WM if CM will do the job better and cheaper. This is one place where CM can gain a foothold in it's entire presentation.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

It's interesting to read the state of healthcare in the US. I've

read alot about 'managed systems of healthcare' in the BMJ.

Unfortuanetly, here in the UK its a little different because of

state funded health.

 

Many doctors and even nurses go on 'weekend' acupuncture course (i

shiver) and then start sticking needles into people where the pain

is, Ashi points! Acupuncturists are then expected to work for free

in the hospitals' pain clinics. Hopefully, with the introduction of

regulation in 2005, those that have only done weekend courses will

not be able to practice.

 

It seems that its often trendy department stores, helth clubs or

retail shops that offer acupuncture from a properly qualified

acupuncturist. Although to get into the private patient insurance

plans you have to be a medical doctor with 10 years experience. The

UK is some way off still, although it's ahaed of other European

countries.

 

Attilio

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel

Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> , acuman1@a... wrote:

> > > Actually, in PA, there is case law which allows palliative

care

> in workmen's compensation injuries, put thru by my WC mentor, a

> MD/acu who is a rehab specialist. Since I generally get patients

> after 2-5 years of treatment and several surgeries, and have a

> number of cases where the patient cannot function without regular

> treatment, with many driving 40 minutes to an hour for treatment.

I

>

> > Carriers complain, but I win in peer review and if not because

> they found some whore who feels they are better able to decide

what

> is needed than the patient and the doctor when the case is not

> fraudulent, in court every time.

> David:

>

> Thanks for posting this. It is exciting news for the profession

that

> we can develop a successful and beneficial role in WM institutions

> like this. This probably points to the real future of CM in

America.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

> David and Jim,

>

> It seems to me, and you may see this as well, that many HMOs (I'm

especially thinking of Kaiser) no longer have WM at the center of

their constellation. I'm not suggesting that MDs don't work there.

I'm noting that the center of such institutions are insurance

administrators who make decisions (for better or worse) about

healthcare delivery for their institution. It's easier for them to

open an Alternative Medicine Clinic which here in CA hires full on

OMDs. A friend of mine named Diana Deng, OMD, has previously been

faculty at the Oakland TCM school and worked together with me to

author a book at Min Tong Herbs. She has been providing the full

range of CM modalities at the Vallejo, CA Kaiser Alt. Med. Clinic

over the past few years and keeps up her own office in Oakland. It

also helps that she's a QME. HMOs see things in terms of dollars

and efficacy, so they are not attached to WM if CM will do the job

better and cheaper. This is one place where CM can gain a foothold

in it's entire presentation.

>

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, in PA, there is case law which allows palliative care in workmen's compensation injuries, put thru by my WC mentor, a MD/acu who is a rehab specialist. Since I generally get patients after 2-5 years of treatment and several surgeries, and have a number of cases where the patient cannot function without regular treatment, with many driving 40 minutes to an hour for treatment

 

>>>Here too you can find some support for palliative care at times. But as the WC system is imploding on it self (probably in the very near future) both WM and all other paradigms are going to be squeezed. As prices of drugs are going to drop and they are going to drop they will be pushed on patients just for cost savings regardless of quality of life and possibly long term cost in medical costs from side effects. I have patients with limitless care. I can see them if I want every day for the rest of their life until the system implodes. Patients that have lifetime care and are fire fighter etc often have an open ticket.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Actually, in PA, there is case law which allows palliative care in workmen's compensation injuries, put thru by my WC mentor, a MD/acu who is a rehab specialist. Since I generally get patients after 2-5 years of treatment and several surgeries, and have a number of cases where the patient cannot function without regular treatment, with many driving 40 minutes to an hour for treatment

 

>>>Here too you can find some support for palliative care at times. But as the WC system is imploding on it self (probably in the very near future) both WM and all other paradigms are going to be squeezed. As prices of drugs are going to drop and they are going to drop they will be pushed on patients just for cost savings regardless of quality of life and possibly long term cost in medical costs from side effects. I have patients with limitless care. I can see them if I want every day for the rest of their life until the system implodes. Patients that have lifetime care and are fire fighter etc often have an open ticket.

Alon

[Guest guest]

It seems to me, and you may see this as well, that many HMOs (I'm especially thinking of Kaiser) no longer have WM at the center of their constellation. I'm not suggesting that MDs don't work there. I'm noting that the center of such institutions are insurance administrators who make decisions (for better or worse) about healthcare delivery for their institution.

 

>>>Well i am sorry to tell that first at Kaisers the administrators are the MDs (except a very few). All medical decisions is made by MDs. Second, I was involved in starting the first Kaiser program at Vallejo and Kaiser does not care if acupuncture work or not in the big picture. It was set up just as a marketing ploy and to satisfy patient requests. They are not even looking into the cost effectiveness, unfortunately because they are the best place to do so. They do not want to put any money into studying the outcomes. Also at this point we can not talk about CM and Kaiser just acupuncture.

Alon