Guest guest Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 Well, stimulation of an acupoint, not via a needle but other methods, would certainly be a better option for RCT's as Ted Kaptchuk points out. From a TCM point of view, this may not be such a good idea but again from a WM point of view, this would be great for research into the effects of acupuncture. Attilio Chinese Medicine , <ga.bates@v...> wrote: > Hi there, I heard about a book entitled " Acupuncture - A Patient's Guide to > Self Needling Techniques " I believe it was published in China. but I can't > find any more info on it, maybe does not have an English translation. > > I wonder what the consensus on 'self needling' is - should it be encouraged > ? Are there dangers involved ? > > Thanks for your input, > > Sammy. > > > > shaanxi_98 [shaanxi_98] > 01 September 2003 02:13 > Chinese Medicine > Acupuncture for Pain > > > Any one who is interested in acupuncture pain management, please post > your message in acupuncture-pain group as well. > > Thanks, > > Beijing men > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 Dear Attilio, To research some effect of stimulating areas by " this and that " means (medium), which are recognised in Chinese medicine as such and such...and under this particular circumstances (spatial and temporal) the following observations where made.... Apart from that I bee interested in hot cold stones since those materials are freely available in a lot of places. Doc, in Peten and or Where GUAMAP works ever use spine of trees or plans and or wood chips and or stones of sort to stimulate vital needle and moxa areas? Marco BTW, self needling my be feasible in a country where acumoxa has been a medical tradition(s) for a very long time, but doubt it would be appropriately used properly in other settings. Although I try to " teach " home moxa treatments and or some form of auto-stimulation to enhance therapeutic effect. What things do you (as in the list...) do to enhance treatment effect be it acumoxa and/or herbal medicine for the persons treated? Self massage? various baths? Qi Gong...and... I tend to or rather am trying to develop self massage with a tennis ball (thanks again to paradigm that book is a hidden treasure), some breathing (very simple basic meditations boarding more on relaxations when compare to the practises of people on this list and CHA...), incorporation of dietary additionals as opposed to forbidding foods. Qi gong ,also very basic and rudimentary when compare to all the lists, but heck am still hopefully waiting for you (as in ALL of you:-) to come to Guatemala and help us develop these aspects further... Marco Well, stimulation of an acupoint, not via a needle but other methods, would certainly be a better option for RCT's as Ted Kaptchuk points out. From a TCM point of view, this may not be such a good idea but again from a WM point of view, this would be great for research into the effects of acupuncture. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 I often do self-needling onto my lu4,li11,pc6,te5,st36,lv3,sp10 to feel the sensation and the right-exact point of 'teqi' watched by my wife,especially when I feel exhausted. yudono. <attiliodalberto wrote: Well, stimulation of an acupoint, not via a needle but other methods, would certainly be a better option for RCT's as Ted Kaptchuk points out. From a TCM point of view, this may not be such a good idea but again from a WM point of view, this would be great for research into the effects of acupuncture. Attilio Chinese Medicine , <ga.bates@v...> wrote: > Hi there, I heard about a book entitled " Acupuncture - A Patient's Guide to > Self Needling Techniques " I believe it was published in China. but I can't > find any more info on it, maybe does not have an English translation. > > I wonder what the consensus on 'self needling' is - should it be encouraged > ? Are there dangers involved ? > > Thanks for your input, > > Sammy. > > > > shaanxi_98 [shaanxi_98] > 01 September 2003 02:13 > Chinese Medicine > Acupuncture for Pain > > > Any one who is interested in acupuncture pain management, please post > your message in acupuncture-pain group as well. > > Thanks, > > Beijing men > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan? Marco >>>>As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just avoid dangerous areas Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just avoid dangerous areas Alon >>>>Really intresting, it is as complex as whom should learn what? I am forever greatfull for these lists. Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Från: " Marco " <bergh Svara till: Chinese Medicine Datum: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:06:46 -0500 Till: <Chinese Medicine > Ämne: Re: Self Needling Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan? Marco Sure, if they can manage it. Especially n Korean Microacupuncture where the hand is the only treatment area and it is absolutely safe to treat one self, as I did recently and successfully so before and after an operation on my femur. I believe the more a patient engage in her own recovery the better. In my experience not many patients want to use needles on them selves so it's not something I actively encourage, but they can use acupressure, moxa etc. If they want to use needles on the hand I encourage that Holger , (just joined the list). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan? > Marco > >>>>As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just avoid dangerous areas > Alon > to me it seems risky from a litigation standpoint. self-massage is a totally different story. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Hello, There is a Japanese needle called a teshin. It is a non-inserted needle which I have found very safe to teach patients to treat themselves with. Especially good has been its use on Korean hand acup model. Sharon - Marco Chinese Medicine Wednesday, September 03, 2003 4:48 AM Re: Self Needling As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just avoid dangerous areas Alon >>>>Really intresting, it is as complex as whom should learn what? I am forever greatfull for these lists. Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Thanks Sharon, sounds very intresting will look into it... Marco Hello, There is a Japanese needle called a teshin. It is a non-inserted needle which I have found very safe to teach patients to treat themselves with. Especially good has been its use on Korean hand acup model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Hej, Välkomen till listan... Studerar du? eller practiserar du? Bäratta om Kinesisk medine i Sverge, tror att det har börjat finas bra skolor i Sverge. Var bor du? Jobar du på sjukhus? o.s.v. Jag hetter Marco Bergh min Mamma är Svensk jag Å Ä Ö åäör adopterad och komer frå Guatemala. Haller på att forsäka etablera Kinesisik medicine på ett statlig eller " folklig " sätt. Det vill sägja att acumoxa ska finas ute i byarna och områdern i städerna på sjukhus kliniker och att det inte blir för dyrt... Hopas att du forstar min stavning ar ord blin och har inte bott i Svergje sädan jag var 12 år. (hoppas att du kan förstå min stavning jag är ord blind) Nästa år ska jag till Svergje kanse vi kan träffas? Would be interesting to hear more about you and Chinese medicine in Sweden... any books you recommend on Korean hand acupuncture and or web sites? I know that one really need to learn these aspect with a teacher master and so forth but short of that... (I AM STILL WAITING FOR THE WHOLE LIST TO COME TO REASON AND STOP WHAT EVER THEY ARE DOING TO VISIT GUATEMALA:-) Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Marco: Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan? Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just avoid dangerous areas. rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation standpoint. self-massage is a totally different story. Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the states, patently against the law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some strange idiosyncratic passage in the state laws I have read. since we are required to be accountable for each and every needle, if we send a needle in an unopened blister pack home with a patient so he can show his friends, we have risked our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to be the authority figure with the patient who's begging to do show and tell, or - it doesn't matter why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed professional does not disqualify one from donating blood, your patient will be disqualified if they find out that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent home with them. This excepts retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our sight, we cannot vouch for safety or hygeine. hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - most LAc's in the states will know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk Management - was one of my teachers in school. that was before he published his book, but I had the concepts in the book drilled in during classes. as of last year, he is also a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of sending needles home with patients, let alone trusting them with self needling, sends a few chills down my spine. p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue Poppy at home right now. it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or David Kailin. I just think that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 have patients self-needle is, here in the states, patently against the law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some strange idiosyncratic passage in the state laws I have read. >>>Then why can they self inject? You can have them dispose needles in bio cans just like diabetics. At kaiser is CA many Dr have been giving patients needles to do self acupuncture for many years. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 i think its abig risk with self nedling. what happens in case of accident. the pt is going to say the acupuncturist told me to do it whether its done correctly or incorrectly. waht about the consequences of others seeing this pt do it & try it themselves. so all in alll very risky. i do not use too may ear needles(overnight) as i do not trust the pt to sytimulate correctly & get results. if the pt doe not do it right, then we are repsponsible & our results suffer. so one needs to be careful at all times. please be extra careful of litigation. anand --- Lynn Detamore <healthworks wrote: > Marco: Should self needling be encourage as part of > a treatment plan? > Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for many > years. Patients do > well. Just avoid dangerous areas. > rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation > standpoint. self-massage is a > totally different story. > > Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the > states, patently against the > law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some > strange idiosyncratic > passage in the state laws I have read. since we are > required to be > accountable for each and every needle, if we send a > needle in an unopened > blister pack home with a patient so he can show his > friends, we have risked > our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to be > the authority figure > with the patient who's begging to do show and tell, > or - it doesn't matter > why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed > professional does not disqualify > one from donating blood, your patient will be > disqualified if they find out > that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent home > with them. This excepts > retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our > sight, we cannot vouch for > safety or hygeine. > > hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - most > LAc's in the states will > know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk > Management - was one of my > teachers in school. that was before he published his > book, but I had the > concepts in the book drilled in during classes. as > of last year, he is also > a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of sending > needles home with > patients, let alone trusting them with self > needling, sends a few chills > down my spine. > > p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue > Poppy at home right now. > it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it > no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or David > Kailin. I just think > that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM > schools. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Hi Anand, Intradermal needles such as press spheres are perhaps less dangerous than the standard TCM ear needle. The are a small ball in varing types of metal. Once in place the practitioner can give a written note on the safety of such needles, including duration of placement. When these needles are used there should be no pain or recognition by the patient that there is anything there. It is a subtle part of the treatment. Also there is a intradermal needle which lies across the skin, taped in place with two pieces of tape, with the small needle shaft (1.5mm) laying between the two and the point of the needle laying on the skin covered like a blanket by the second piece of tape. It would be such a pity to miss out on the remarkable use of intradermals as an acupuncture tool. The can reduce a great deal of pain, and give the practitioner, 'another bit at the cherry', so to speak in the treatment process. They can be easily used on the hand in the Korean AP system, the ear or on regular body acup points. I have seen frozen shoulders just about disappear with ear acupuncture and an intradermal. Being well schooled in any acupuncture techniqe is important and a practitioner shouldn't proceed, IMO, if they are not feeling competent in a proceedure. There are some techniques that I have not yet mastered well enough and so I do not use them until I am better understanding their application. regards Sharon - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Friday, September 05, 2003 7:49 AM Re: Re: self needling i think its abig risk with self nedling. what happens in case of accident. the pt is going to say the acupuncturist told me to do it whether its done correctly or incorrectly. waht about the consequences of others seeing this pt do it & try it themselves. so all in alll very risky. i do not use too may ear needles(overnight) as i do not trust the pt to sytimulate correctly & get results. if the pt doe not do it right, then we are repsponsible & our results suffer. so one needs to be careful at all times. please be extra careful of litigation. anand --- Lynn Detamore <healthworks wrote: > Marco: Should self needling be encourage as part of > a treatment plan? > Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for many > years. Patients do > well. Just avoid dangerous areas. > rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation > standpoint. self-massage is a > totally different story. > > Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the > states, patently against the > law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some > strange idiosyncratic > passage in the state laws I have read. since we are > required to be > accountable for each and every needle, if we send a > needle in an unopened > blister pack home with a patient so he can show his > friends, we have risked > our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to be > the authority figure > with the patient who's begging to do show and tell, > or - it doesn't matter > why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed > professional does not disqualify > one from donating blood, your patient will be > disqualified if they find out > that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent home > with them. This excepts > retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our > sight, we cannot vouch for > safety or hygeine. > > hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - most > LAc's in the states will > know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk > Management - was one of my > teachers in school. that was before he published his > book, but I had the > concepts in the book drilled in during classes. as > of last year, he is also > a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of sending > needles home with > patients, let alone trusting them with self > needling, sends a few chills > down my spine. > > p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue > Poppy at home right now. > it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it > no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or David > Kailin. I just think > that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM > schools. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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