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Well, stimulation of an acupoint, not via a needle but other methods,

would certainly be a better option for RCT's as Ted Kaptchuk points

out. From a TCM point of view, this may not be such a good idea but

again from a WM point of view, this would be great for research into

the effects of acupuncture.

 

Attilio

 

 

Chinese Medicine , <ga.bates@v...>

wrote:

> Hi there, I heard about a book entitled " Acupuncture - A Patient's

Guide to

> Self Needling Techniques " I believe it was published in China. but

I can't

> find any more info on it, maybe does not have an English

translation.

>

> I wonder what the consensus on 'self needling' is - should it be

encouraged

> ? Are there dangers involved ?

>

> Thanks for your input,

>

> Sammy.

>

>

>

> shaanxi_98 [shaanxi_98]

> 01 September 2003 02:13

> Chinese Medicine

> Acupuncture for Pain

>

>

> Any one who is interested in acupuncture pain management, please

post

> your message in acupuncture-pain group as well.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Beijing men

>

>

>

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Dear Attilio,

 

To research some effect of stimulating areas by " this and that " means (medium),

which are recognised in Chinese medicine as such and such...and under this

particular circumstances (spatial and temporal) the following observations where

made.... Apart from that I bee interested in hot cold stones since those

materials are freely available in a lot of places.

 

Doc, in Peten and or Where GUAMAP works ever use spine of trees or plans and or

wood chips and or stones of sort to stimulate vital needle and moxa areas?

 

Marco

 

BTW, self needling my be feasible in a country where acumoxa has been a medical

tradition(s) for a very long time, but doubt it would be appropriately used

properly in other settings. Although I try to " teach " home moxa treatments and

or some form of auto-stimulation to enhance therapeutic effect.

 

What things do you (as in the list...) do to enhance treatment effect be it

acumoxa and/or herbal medicine for the persons treated?

 

Self massage?

various baths?

Qi Gong...and...

 

I tend to or rather am trying to develop self massage with a tennis ball (thanks

again to paradigm that book is a hidden treasure), some breathing (very simple

basic meditations boarding more on relaxations when compare to the practises of

people on this list and CHA...), incorporation of dietary additionals as opposed

to forbidding foods. Qi gong ,also very basic and rudimentary when compare to

all the lists, but heck am still hopefully waiting for you (as in ALL of you:-)

to come to Guatemala and help us develop these aspects further...

 

Marco

 

 

 

Well, stimulation of an acupoint, not via a needle but other methods,

would certainly be a better option for RCT's as Ted Kaptchuk points

out. From a TCM point of view, this may not be such a good idea but

again from a WM point of view, this would be great for research into

the effects of acupuncture.

 

Attilio

 

 

 

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I often do self-needling onto my lu4,li11,pc6,te5,st36,lv3,sp10 to feel the

sensation and the right-exact point of 'teqi' watched by my wife,especially when

I feel exhausted.

yudono.

 

<attiliodalberto wrote:

Well, stimulation of an acupoint, not via a needle but other methods,

would certainly be a better option for RCT's as Ted Kaptchuk points

out. From a TCM point of view, this may not be such a good idea but

again from a WM point of view, this would be great for research into

the effects of acupuncture.

 

Attilio

 

 

Chinese Medicine , <ga.bates@v...>

wrote:

> Hi there, I heard about a book entitled " Acupuncture - A Patient's

Guide to

> Self Needling Techniques " I believe it was published in China. but

I can't

> find any more info on it, maybe does not have an English

translation.

>

> I wonder what the consensus on 'self needling' is - should it be

encouraged

> ? Are there dangers involved ?

>

> Thanks for your input,

>

> Sammy.

>

>

>

> shaanxi_98 [shaanxi_98]

> 01 September 2003 02:13

> Chinese Medicine

> Acupuncture for Pain

>

>

> Any one who is interested in acupuncture pain management, please

post

> your message in acupuncture-pain group as well.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Beijing men

>

>

>

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Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan?

Marco

>>>>As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just

avoid dangerous areas

Alon

 

 

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As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just

avoid dangerous areas

Alon

>>>>Really intresting, it is as complex as whom should learn what?

I am forever greatfull for these lists.

Marco

 

 

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Från: " Marco " <bergh

Svara till: Chinese Medicine

Datum: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:06:46 -0500

Till: <Chinese Medicine >

Ämne: Re: Self Needling

 

 

Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan?

Marco

 

 

Sure, if they can manage it. Especially n Korean Microacupuncture where the

hand is the only treatment area and it is absolutely safe to treat one self,

as I did recently and successfully so before and after an operation on my

femur. I believe the more a patient engage in her own recovery the better.

In my experience not many patients want to use needles on them selves so

it's not something I actively encourage, but they can use acupressure, moxa

etc. If they want to use needles on the hand I encourage that

 

Holger , (just joined the list).

 

 

 

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Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan?

> Marco

> >>>>As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients

do well. Just avoid dangerous areas

> Alon

>

 

to me it seems risky from a litigation standpoint. self-massage is

a totally different story.

 

rh

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Hello,

There is a Japanese needle called a teshin. It is a non-inserted needle which I

have found very safe to teach patients to treat themselves with. Especially

good has been its use on Korean hand acup model.

Sharon

-

Marco

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, September 03, 2003 4:48 AM

Re: Self Needling

 

 

As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do well. Just

avoid dangerous areas

Alon

>>>>Really intresting, it is as complex as whom should learn what?

I am forever greatfull for these lists.

Marco

 

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Thanks Sharon,

 

sounds very intresting will look into it...

 

Marco

 

Hello,

There is a Japanese needle called a teshin. It is a non-inserted needle which

I have found very safe to teach patients to treat themselves with. Especially

good has been its use on Korean hand acup model.

 

 

 

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Hej,

 

Välkomen till listan...

 

Studerar du?

eller practiserar du?

 

Bäratta om Kinesisk medine i Sverge, tror att det har börjat finas bra skolor i

Sverge.

 

Var bor du?

Jobar du på sjukhus? o.s.v.

 

Jag hetter Marco Bergh min Mamma är Svensk jag Å Ä Ö åäör adopterad och komer

frå Guatemala.

Haller på att forsäka etablera Kinesisik medicine på ett statlig eller " folklig "

sätt. Det vill sägja att acumoxa ska finas ute i byarna och områdern i städerna

på sjukhus kliniker och att det inte blir för dyrt... Hopas att du forstar min

stavning ar ord blin och har inte bott i Svergje sädan jag var 12 år. (hoppas

att du kan förstå min stavning jag är ord blind)

 

Nästa år ska jag till Svergje kanse vi kan träffas?

 

Would be interesting to hear more about you and Chinese medicine in Sweden...

any books you recommend on Korean hand acupuncture and or web sites?

 

I know that one really need to learn these aspect with a teacher master and so

forth but short of that...

 

(I AM STILL WAITING FOR THE WHOLE LIST TO COME TO REASON AND STOP WHAT EVER THEY

ARE DOING TO VISIT GUATEMALA:-)

 

Marco

 

 

 

 

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Marco: Should self needling be encourage as part of a treatment plan?

Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for many years. Patients do

well. Just avoid dangerous areas.

rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation standpoint. self-massage is a

totally different story.

 

Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the states, patently against the

law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some strange idiosyncratic

passage in the state laws I have read. since we are required to be

accountable for each and every needle, if we send a needle in an unopened

blister pack home with a patient so he can show his friends, we have risked

our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to be the authority figure

with the patient who's begging to do show and tell, or - it doesn't matter

why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed professional does not disqualify

one from donating blood, your patient will be disqualified if they find out

that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent home with them. This excepts

retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our sight, we cannot vouch for

safety or hygeine.

 

hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - most LAc's in the states will

know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk Management - was one of my

teachers in school. that was before he published his book, but I had the

concepts in the book drilled in during classes. as of last year, he is also

a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of sending needles home with

patients, let alone trusting them with self needling, sends a few chills

down my spine.

 

p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue Poppy at home right now.

it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it

no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or David Kailin. I just think

that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM schools.

 

 

 

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have patients self-needle is, here in the states, patently against the

law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some strange idiosyncratic

passage in the state laws I have read.

>>>Then why can they self inject? You can have them dispose needles in bio cans

just like diabetics. At kaiser is CA many Dr have been giving patients needles

to do self acupuncture for many years.

Alon

 

 

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i think its abig risk with self nedling. what happens

in case of accident. the pt is going to say the

acupuncturist told me to do it whether its done

correctly or incorrectly.

waht about the consequences of others seeing this pt

do it & try it themselves. so all in alll very risky.

i do not use too may ear needles(overnight) as i do

not trust the pt to sytimulate correctly & get

results. if the pt doe not do it right, then we are

repsponsible & our results suffer.

so one needs to be careful at all times.

please be extra careful of litigation.

anand

 

 

 

--- Lynn Detamore <healthworks

wrote: > Marco: Should self needling be encourage as

part of

> a treatment plan?

> Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for many

> years. Patients do

> well. Just avoid dangerous areas.

> rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation

> standpoint. self-massage is a

> totally different story.

>

> Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the

> states, patently against the

> law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some

> strange idiosyncratic

> passage in the state laws I have read. since we are

> required to be

> accountable for each and every needle, if we send a

> needle in an unopened

> blister pack home with a patient so he can show his

> friends, we have risked

> our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to be

> the authority figure

> with the patient who's begging to do show and tell,

> or - it doesn't matter

> why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed

> professional does not disqualify

> one from donating blood, your patient will be

> disqualified if they find out

> that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent home

> with them. This excepts

> retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our

> sight, we cannot vouch for

> safety or hygeine.

>

> hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - most

> LAc's in the states will

> know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk

> Management - was one of my

> teachers in school. that was before he published his

> book, but I had the

> concepts in the book drilled in during classes. as

> of last year, he is also

> a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of sending

> needles home with

> patients, let alone trusting them with self

> needling, sends a few chills

> down my spine.

>

> p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue

> Poppy at home right now.

> it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it

> no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or David

> Kailin. I just think

> that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM

> schools.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

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Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

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Hi Anand,

Intradermal needles such as press spheres are perhaps less dangerous than the

standard TCM ear needle. The are a small ball in varing types of metal. Once

in place the practitioner can give a written note on the safety of such needles,

including duration of placement. When these needles are used there should be no

pain or recognition by the patient that there is anything there. It is a subtle

part of the treatment.

 

Also there is a intradermal needle which lies across the skin, taped in place

with two pieces of tape, with the small needle shaft (1.5mm) laying between the

two and the point of the needle laying on the skin covered like a blanket by the

second piece of tape.

 

It would be such a pity to miss out on the remarkable use of intradermals as an

acupuncture tool. The can reduce a great deal of pain, and give the

practitioner, 'another bit at the cherry', so to speak in the treatment process.

They can be easily used on the hand in the Korean AP system, the ear or on

regular body acup points. I have seen frozen shoulders just about disappear with

ear acupuncture and an intradermal.

 

Being well schooled in any acupuncture techniqe is important and a practitioner

shouldn't proceed, IMO, if they are not feeling competent in a proceedure.

There are some techniques that I have not yet mastered well enough and so I do

not use them until I am better understanding their application.

 

regards

Sharon

-

anand bapat

Chinese Medicine

Friday, September 05, 2003 7:49 AM

Re: Re: self needling

 

 

i think its abig risk with self nedling. what happens

in case of accident. the pt is going to say the

acupuncturist told me to do it whether its done

correctly or incorrectly.

waht about the consequences of others seeing this pt

do it & try it themselves. so all in alll very risky.

i do not use too may ear needles(overnight) as i do

not trust the pt to sytimulate correctly & get

results. if the pt doe not do it right, then we are

repsponsible & our results suffer.

so one needs to be careful at all times.

please be extra careful of litigation.

anand

 

 

 

--- Lynn Detamore <healthworks

wrote: > Marco: Should self needling be encourage as

part of

> a treatment plan?

> Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for many

> years. Patients do

> well. Just avoid dangerous areas.

> rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation

> standpoint. self-massage is a

> totally different story.

>

> Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the

> states, patently against the

> law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some

> strange idiosyncratic

> passage in the state laws I have read. since we are

> required to be

> accountable for each and every needle, if we send a

> needle in an unopened

> blister pack home with a patient so he can show his

> friends, we have risked

> our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to be

> the authority figure

> with the patient who's begging to do show and tell,

> or - it doesn't matter

> why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed

> professional does not disqualify

> one from donating blood, your patient will be

> disqualified if they find out

> that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent home

> with them. This excepts

> retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our

> sight, we cannot vouch for

> safety or hygeine.

>

> hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - most

> LAc's in the states will

> know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk

> Management - was one of my

> teachers in school. that was before he published his

> book, but I had the

> concepts in the book drilled in during classes. as

> of last year, he is also

> a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of sending

> needles home with

> patients, let alone trusting them with self

> needling, sends a few chills

> down my spine.

>

> p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue

> Poppy at home right now.

> it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it

> no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or David

> Kailin. I just think

> that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM

> schools.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

 

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