The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

[Guest guest]

Hi!

 

I'll ask this again because it probably got lost underneath so many emails.

 

Is there a PROSTATE in TCM anatomy ?

 

Make sure you check the male anatomy if you look this up in a TCM anatomy

book.

 

If the prostate is found in your anatomy book maybe you could quote its

publication details to make sure it is not a Wsetern copy. I am looking for

only genuine Chinese descriptions here.

 

I'd also be very interested to know what function the prostate is perceived

to have from a TCM viewpoint.

 

Many thanks for looking this up in advance. You never know you may get an

examination question on it ;-)

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sammy,

 

Quick question:

 

[...] I am looking for

> only genuine Chinese descriptions here.

 

What do you consider a genuine Chinese

description to be?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

< what do you consider a genuine Chinese description to be? Ken

 

Something written in China pre-western influence. What about books like the

" Yellow Emporer " , " Shen Nong " . How about 1102-1106 Based on autopsy Yang

Jie compiled and drew ANATOMICAL ATLAS OF TRUTH ?

 

Surely the prostate will be found in there ? How about the library at

Middlesex for some of these books / translations ?

 

 

 

Sammy.

 

 

kenrose2008 [kenrose2008]

26 September 2003 14:45

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

 

 

Sammy,

 

Quick question:

 

[...] I am looking for

> only genuine Chinese descriptions here.

 

What do you consider a genuine Chinese

description to be?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sammy,

 

 

> < what do you consider a genuine Chinese description to be? Ken

>

> Something written in China pre-western influence. What about books like

the

> " Yellow Emporer " , " Shen Nong " . How about 1102-1106 Based on autopsy

Yang

> Jie compiled and drew ANATOMICAL ATLAS OF TRUTH ?

>

> Surely the prostate will be found in there ? How about the library at

> Middlesex for some of these books / translations ?

>

>

>

> Sammy.

 

I'm not familiar enough with any of the texts

that you mention to be able categorically to say

whether or not they contain mention of the

prostate. Hopefully someone else can.

 

I tend to doubt that the earlier materials do,

however they certainly might, as I'm always

finding such material to be full of surprises.

 

I realized when I read your response just

now that I have a more basic question

perhaps.

 

What are you interested in finding out

or establishing about the prostate? I'm

sorry if you already said this in an

earlier post and I just don't recollect.

But rather than dig through and find

the earlier post, I thought I'd just ask

you again.

 

It led me to wonder what it is we really are

up to when we undertake comparisons of

old Chinese notions with modern concepts.

 

Are we trying to see if they got it right?

 

Are we trying to prove that it's better to

be long dead?

 

Maybe this seems obvious to most folks,

but I find myself in this state of ecstatic

confusion following a seminar with Paul

Unschuld, and I feel like examining some

of the more basic presumptions and the

behaviors that seem to emerge from them.

 

Why do we care about what is written in

old Chinese books anyhow?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Are we trying to see if they got it right?

 

Are we trying to prove that it's better to

be long dead?

>>>>Ken how about just another point of reference. I find necessary to always

take biomedical and CM statements and relate them to what i can comprehend or

see in my patients. If i cant do that i cant relate or use any medical idea.

Since i need some point of reference, usually my real life experience, looking

at patients from multitude of direction and correlating observation helps me

digest medical ideas. Perhaps this is a weakness of mine. Never the less i find

it very helpful to correlate clinical patterns

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Why do we care about what is written in

old Chinese books anyhow?

 

Ken

 

That is a fundamental question! Holger

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi,

my approach to ;literature is this.

anyone who writes a book has got something to pass on

to the future. that person feels it is important hence

that hs been put in print.

its up to the people to decide whether its important

or not.

in the early days when i started with acupuncture, i

found most books very informative & useful.

todaywhen i look at books, i find i know a lot of the

stuff.

my observations on books.

during the passt eras when books were written they had

something powerful to pass on. so they wrote books.

they felt the info would stand the test of time.

today books are written at the drop of a hat.

i have come across people writing books after a few

yeasr of experience & the books do not have much to

offere, whch is not in the older books.

that is the difference.

if one reads a book one finds the hidden meaning.

i have reread nei jing & every time i have learnt

something more from the same book.

thats why books are important .

thats why the old books were called & referred to

today as the classics.

anand

 

 

 

 

--- Holger Wendt <holger.wendt wrote: >

> Why do we care about what is written in

> old Chinese books anyhow?

>

> Ken

>

> That is a fundamental question! Holger

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

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[Guest guest]

> What are you interested in finding out or establishing about the prostate?

I'm

 

It represents a big grey area in medicine. WM has got the treatment for

prostate cancer horribly wrong. About 50k guys die of this disease every

year in the USA alone. Most guys are well into their 70's and 80's but a

great big 10% of these deaths occur to men of working age. The whole thing

is a puzzle.

 

Having said that and despite the miserable failure of WM: Treating prostatic

disease in the west is an industry, big time. Anyone who cracks the problem

of treating prostate cancer and saving these lives will make themselves very

rich ;-)

 

CM on the other hand does not even recognise the existence of the organ. I

am not saying prostatic disease did not exist in China - e.g. there was

something called " monk's disease " - but the severity and extent just does

not compare to modern prostate disease.

 

So .. we have a conundrum. On the one hand 'the killer' and on the other

hand 'the blind man'.

 

> Why do we care about what is written in old Chinese books anyhow?

 

Just an aside - Is that you asking the question - or Unschuld ? My answer is

that a child learns to crawl before it drives a car. If you put a toddler

behind the wheels of a car then expect problems.

 

There may be failings in the old texts, I am sure there are. BUT they

present defining moments in the conceptualisation of a unique paradigm. It

doesn't matter if you want to talk about acupuncture or herbalism or anatomy

the old texts lay down the groundwork and help you to 'think TCM'.

 

Besides, what are you going to replace these gems with ? Surely not those

half baked things you find on the shelves of oriental bookshops ! Even as a

beginner I find some of the stuff written by 'experts' like Kaptchuk ( " The

Web that has no Weaver " ) complete shite and just bit of a waste of time

correcting all the mistakes.

 

So, back to the 'big money'. Have you found your prostate yet ? [ Don't try

this at home guys unless you are double jointed. Get you partner to do it

for you. When I get down to Middlesex library, I'll bring my surgical gloves

and a bottle of 'Slide'nGlide & show you how it is done # :-]

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

kenrose2008 [kenrose2008]

27 September 2003 14:49

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

 

 

Sammy,

 

 

> < what do you consider a genuine Chinese description to be? Ken

>

> Something written in China pre-western influence. What about books like

the

> " Yellow Emporer " , " Shen Nong " . How about 1102-1106 Based on autopsy

Yang

> Jie compiled and drew ANATOMICAL ATLAS OF TRUTH ?

>

> Surely the prostate will be found in there ? How about the library at

> Middlesex for some of these books / translations ?

>

>

>

> Sammy.

 

I'm not familiar enough with any of the texts

that you mention to be able categorically to say

whether or not they contain mention of the

prostate. Hopefully someone else can.

 

I tend to doubt that the earlier materials do,

however they certainly might, as I'm always

finding such material to be full of surprises.

 

I realized when I read your response just

now that I have a more basic question

perhaps.

 

What are you interested in finding out

or establishing about the prostate? I'm

sorry if you already said this in an

earlier post and I just don't recollect.

But rather than dig through and find

the earlier post, I thought I'd just ask

you again.

 

It led me to wonder what it is we really are

up to when we undertake comparisons of

old Chinese notions with modern concepts.

 

Are we trying to see if they got it right?

 

Are we trying to prove that it's better to

be long dead?

 

Maybe this seems obvious to most folks,

but I find myself in this state of ecstatic

confusion following a seminar with Paul

Unschuld, and I feel like examining some

of the more basic presumptions and the

behaviors that seem to emerge from them.

 

Why do we care about what is written in

old Chinese books anyhow?

 

Ken

 

 

[Guest guest]

CM on the other hand does not even recognise the existence of the organ. I

am not saying prostatic disease did not exist in China - e.g. there was

something called " monk's disease " - but the severity and extent just does

not compare to modern prostate disease.

 

So .. we have a conundrum. On the one hand 'the killer' and on the other

hand 'the blind man'.

>>>>Remember very few people lived into their 70s and 80s

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sammy,

 

I gotta tell you that everyone in the house

here is asking, What are you laughing so

hard about? It's moments like this when I

no longer have to ask why I do this.

 

Thank you.

 

By the way, my posing those questions about

the value of history and old texts should not

suggest that I don't find these things of value.

 

I just find myself in a questioning state of mind

these days and thought I'd share with the group.

 

But again, thank you.

 

Just, thank you.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , wrote:

> So, back to the 'big money'. Have you found your prostate yet? >>>

 

 

Sammy:

 

The prostate is included in 20th century pulse diagnosis. Both the

Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulse systems include it. But, you must

keep in mind that there isn't any pulse for the prostate, per se,

until it develops some disorder. If everything is operating

normally, the pulses are very simple and don't show any kind of

detail. You can read about it and other parts of the body in my

article " Organs and Their Associated Pulses " in the pulse section of

the Files.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jim, I'll certainly check that one out. Sammy.

James Ramholz [jramholz]

28 September 2003 08:08

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

 

 

Chinese Medicine , wrote:

> So, back to the 'big money'. Have you found your prostate yet? >>>

 

 

Sammy:

 

The prostate is included in 20th century pulse diagnosis. Both the

Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulse systems include it. But, you must

keep in mind that there isn't any pulse for the prostate, per se,

until it develops some disorder. If everything is operating

normally, the pulses are very simple and don't show any kind of

detail. You can read about it and other parts of the body in my

article " Organs and Their Associated Pulses " in the pulse section of

the Files.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

Bingo. Prostate is a " genuine " Western scientific term. It is the male organ

which is homologous with (embryologically from the same tissue as) the female

uterus. So do genuine Western terms have genuine Chinese descriptions? Mmmmm

.... how about a genuine Chinese description from the 3rd Century of an English

term whose usage dates to 1646. We could begin the truth and reconciliation

program right here.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

-

kenrose2008

Chinese Medicine

Friday, September 26, 2003 6:45 AM

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

 

 

Sammy,

 

Quick question:

 

[...] I am looking for

> only genuine Chinese descriptions here.

 

What do you consider a genuine Chinese

description to be?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel wrote:

> So do genuine Western terms have genuine Chinese descriptions?

Mmmmm ... how about a genuine Chinese description from the 3rd

Century of an English term whose usage dates to 1646. We could begin

the truth and reconciliation program right here. >>>

 

 

That's nearly one of the ways Ezra Pound worked in the Cantos. He

would choose a word in English that was equally as old as the

foreign term he was writing about.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim, Emmanuel,

 

Chinese Medicine , " James Ramholz " <

jramholz> wrote:

> Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel wrote:

> > So do genuine Western terms have genuine Chinese descriptions?

> Mmmmm ... how about a genuine Chinese description from the 3rd

> Century of an English term whose usage dates to 1646. We could begin

> the truth and reconciliation program right here. >>>

>

>

> That's nearly one of the ways Ezra Pound worked in the Cantos. He

> would choose a word in English that was equally as old as the

> foreign term he was writing about.

>

 

One of the ideas that has been circulating

around me lately is the truism that something

is always lost in translation. One of the things

that I've always admired about Pound's translations

from Chinese to English is the extent to which he

managed to bring the spirit of the original to life

in a new language. Not only that, but there are

places where the juxtaposition of English and

Chinese words in Pound sheds new light and

develops new insights that neither necessarily

predicts...synergetic in another word.

 

Translation actually affords us incredible

opportunities to see things in one language

and literature that can only be seen through

the lens of another.

 

And so far as truth and reconciliation goes,

it begins and ends right here: in the meanings

of words.

 

I believe that in terms of traditional Chinese

thinking, this importance of words and the

dynamics from which their meanings arise

is best exemplified in the text of the

Dao De Jing.

 

Speaking of translation, are you familiar

with a little book Louis Zukofsky put together

called A Test of Translation?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , ken wrote:

> Speaking of translation, are you familiar

> with a little book Louis Zukofsky put together

> called A Test of Translation?

 

 

Ken:

 

Sure. I was an English major in college.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

One of the seeds that was planted in my brain,

partly through reading Zukofsky's book, was

the idea that the comparison of languages

and literatures provides us with an unequaled

opportunity to gain insight into what we think,

how we think it, and how our expressions and

our thoughts interact to create and fortify our

impressions and understanding of how the

world all fits together and works.

 

This year in Beijing I did two things that

reacted with this seed. I started learning how

to write the Dao De Jing, and I began to

study and practice calligraphy.

 

Both are having interesting effects on

how I think about a lot of things. I asked Sammy

what he had in mind when we was looking

for an authentic Chinese definition because

it seems to me that there are many characteristics

that combine to make something authentically

Chinese. That's not a new thought, admittedly.

In fact, it's more or less what Who Can Ride

the Dragon is a meditation about.

 

I wanted to know what he thinks an authentic Chinese

definition is or might be, and I have been

thinking about why it matters so much that

things be traced back to ancient sources.

 

 

I've been thinking about a lot of these things

for some while now. In fact I've been reading

the Dao De Jing in one language or another

for so close to forty years that it's startling.

And as I've worked through several chapters

of the book now, learning each of

the characters that make up the text, writing

the passages over and over, and engaging

in the slow and repetitious gong fu that the

language has always imposed on those who

learn and use it, I have started to think about

these words, phrases and their meanings

in whole new ways.

 

Part of what we do when we learn a language

is to know what each word means in our

own native language. And it is just this

basic and individual act of translation that

develops and provides the opportunities

of comparing unlikes to establish their

differences and similarities.

 

This is a kind of gong fu, as I just referred to

it. I can't think of or imagine any way that

anyone could come into possession of

a whole set of artifacts and capacities with

which to see or comprehend an authentic

Chinese definition without investing himself

or herself in actually doing this gong fu.

 

I'm not talking about calligraphy and the

Dao De Jing. That's just my personal

trip. I'm talking about learning characters,

acquiring the basic building blocks of

the language. And if you want to read a

splendid essay on the nature and function

of this modular building block arrangement

of the Chinese written language, check out

Lothar Ledderose's book Ten Thousand

Things.

 

I've never met anyone who has ever learned

Chinese who has not had to pass through

their own personal version of what amounts

to a wall of words, a massive number of

characters running to the thousands, at least

two or three thousand as starters.

 

People tend to feel about this in all different

ways, but the point is that no one who knows

Chinese has failed on this one point, for to

fail here is not to know Chinese.

 

This, by the way, is a good deal of what keeps

me wondering how it is that the early efforts

to organize and standardize Chinese medical

education and training in the States so sorely

neglected this whole area.

 

But that's an old story too. And I apologize for

digressing a bit. But when Emmanuel shouted

Bingo, I realized that yeah, there is a pretty

big set of issues hiding beneath this one

innocent question.

 

What the heck is an authentic Chinese definition?

 

Why does it matter?

 

And what shall we do about that?

 

Now we can relate to this set of highly

impertinent questions in all different ways.

 

I see them as opportunities, as described above.

 

I've written an essay recently, just a week or

two before I left Beijing, about the translation

of the good old Chinese medical term, shen2,

which we usually encounter as " spirit " in English

versions of texts in which it appears. In my essay

I suggest that another English word that takes

advantage of one such opportunity is " magic. "

 

If people here would like to read it, I'll post it

in the files section. It explains the rationale for

reading shen2 as magic and describes the

insight into the meaning of both words as

one particular case in which something

distinctive is gained in translation.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Yes please Ken

 

Your magic makes me curious and wondering

it moves me to think again, newly, pondering

the magic we share that's universal

and not just some old rehersal

 

post it please

 

Holger

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've written an essay recently, just a week or

two before I left Beijing, about the translation

of the good old Chinese medical term, shen2,

which we usually encounter as " spirit " in English

versions of texts in which it appears. In my essay

I suggest that another English word that takes

advantage of one such opportunity is " magic. "

 

If people here would like to read it, I'll post it

in the files section. It explains the rationale for

reading shen2 as magic and describes the

insight into the meaning of both words as

one particular case in which something

distinctive is gained in translation.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

 

I'm certainly happy to post this little

essay, but I realized as I was about to

do it that it is actually meant to be

included in a forthcoming book. This once

again raises the curious question of

copyright and the protection thereof with

respect to lists such as these. I've

never really gotten a clear reading of

what the law states and means in terms

of any precautions that should or must

be taken in a case such as this where

I am concerned about not forfeiting the

copyright to a little chunk of text.

 

It's not that big a deal, but I'd just

hate to find myself down the road with

someone other than me asserting ownership

of something that I aim to use in a book.

 

So I thought I'd just check in with you

and do it here in the public forum so

that we can establish an agreement.

Since you're the list owner, it seems

that you'd be the only really likely

candidate to assert ownership of the

copyright of the contents of the archive.

 

What's your take on this question?

 

Who owns the material that is posted

on this list?

 

Ken

 

Chinese Medicine , Holger Wendt

<holger.wendt@t...> wrote:

> Yes please Ken

>

> Your magic makes me curious and wondering

> it moves me to think again, newly, pondering

> the magic we share that's universal

> and not just some old rehersal

>

> post it please

>

> Holger

I've written an essay recently, just a week or

> two before I left Beijing, about the translation

> of the good old Chinese medical term, shen2,

> which we usually encounter as " spirit " in English

> versions of texts in which it appears. In my essay

> I suggest that another English word that takes

> advantage of one such opportunity is " magic. "

>

> If people here would like to read it, I'll post it

> in the files section. It explains the rationale for

> reading shen2 as magic and describes the

> insight into the meaning of both words as

> one particular case in which something

> distinctive is gained in translation.

>

> Ken

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken and All,

 

The prostate is a primary male sexual characteristic having its

embryological origins as described previously by Emmanuel " It is the male

organ which is homologous with (embryologically from the same tissue as) the

female uterus " .

 

During growth the male prostate differentiates itself from the female uterus

by morphological changes which position it at the base of the bladder and

through which the urethra passes. Manual examination or digital rectal

examination (DRE): When fully developed the prostate is a small walnut

shaped muscular gland which may be digitally palpated via the colonic

mucosa. A normal prostate should feel solid, smooth and round without

asymmetry. Observing standard clinical practice (surgical glove and

anti-friction gel), a normal palpation of the prostate with the fingertip

should not be painful.

 

After maturation the prostate consists of both muscle and glandular tissue

(similar to the breast) and provides a thick milky fluid (semen) to help

express sperm cells into the vagina. The prostate sits upon the urethra and

it is from the prostate and seminal vesicles that prostatic fluid is pumped

during orgasm.

 

Because of variations in sexual activity during the life time of the male

the prostate is capable of undergoing changes in size to maximise

reproductive capacity at crucial times and minimise energy loss and wasteful

sexual activity during less critical periods (e.g. during times of seasonal

hardship). These changes in prostate size do not normally affect urinary

function. Hormone receptors in prostatic tissue respond to growth triggers

during puberty and thereafter. Secondary sexual growth inhibition factors

impose limits on the size of the prostate despite high levels of androgen in

the young sexually active male.

 

From the thirties onward in many men the prostate undergoes changes that

reflect ageing. Various processes including capillary atherosclerosis,

urinary reflux and virus infection contribute to a benign prostatic

hyperplasy (BPH - or prostatic enlargement) that may impact on free passage

of urine through the organ. Prostatic interepithelial neoplasia (PIN) is

believed to occur after BPH induced cellular breakdown facilitates leakage

of prostatic cell-fragments into the rich growth supporting environment of

prostatic fluid stored in the organ and the seminal vesicles. A final stage

to prostatic carcinoma (PC) may be facilitated by changes in the male

sex-steroid hormone mileau which interfere with the normal homeostatic

processes controlling prostate size and cellular response to growth

triggers.

 

Despite occult PC being age-dependent with a consistent distribution across

cultures worldwide, there is a strong tendency in western society for the

disease to become manifest and often fatal. Men of African descent living in

the west have a higher incidence of PC. This probably reflects

socio-economic, cultural and life-chance patterns, rather than a racial

connection. Indeed, there is no evidence that Africans, or any other rural

group from the Eskimo to the Bushman are more (or less) prone to PC

regardless of ethnic dietary preferences for meat or fat or carbohydrates

in the context of daily subsistence living. By contrast second and third

generation diaspora acquire the same (or worse) tendency to PC in the

context of a western diet and lifestyle. Many contributing factors to

carcinogenesis have been postulated from xenoestrogenic pesticides and

packaging plastics to the 'male menopause' and the disruption of male

hormones in the workplace.

 

Symptoms of BPH may often go unnoticed until an incident (perhaps through

stress or infection) precipitates subjective awareness of dysuria: for

example nocturia, latency; or inability to 'pee' with a full sensation,

dribbling and pain in the urethra. PC itself may be associated with pain on

ejaculation and blood in the urine. However, many cases of fully blown

metastatic PC occur without prior warning. PC metastasises to the bone

generally in the lower back and to the lymph nodes. Some western texts now

associate PC with low back pain and weakness in the legs - text book Kidney

Yin deficiency - a TCM influence that has not had its full potential

realised.

 

In the 1950's it was discovered that death due to metastatic PC could be

averted by five years or more by bilateral orchietomy. Since then the

procedure has become commonplace, and in some countries mandatory NHS

treatment for advanced PC. Albeit castration removes the hormonal impulse of

prostatic tissue to grow this is only a temporary palliation since the

condition returns in an androgen independent form (AIPC).

 

Because of its unpleasantness alternatives treatments to castration have

always been sought. Modern gene manipulation techniques hold some hope in

the distant future, but the mainstays are still surgery and radiation which

may remove local disease. Once the PC is said to have 'breached the

prostatic capsule' and become systemic, local therapy is useless and hence

the continued need for castration to palliate the condition. Sadly, many men

with PC end their days being castrated either physically or chemically.

 

Chemical castration agents block the production of testosterone (e.g.

estrogens which lead to feminisation) or anti-androgens (AA) which block

sex-steroid cell receptors. A class of drug known as luteinising hormone

releasing hormone agonist analogs (LHRH-a) is used to inhibit testosterone

production by a 'crowbar effect' on the hypothalamus-pituitary. All forms of

androgen suppression lead to serious side effects in men including bone

demineralisation, muscle loss, affective and cognitive disorders including

Alzheimer's disease.

 

Detection: The 'PSA' or prostate specific antigen is a protein detected in

blood which normally resides within the healthy prostatic cell. Once PSA is

detectable in significant amount in the blood it is generally accepted that

PC is present although small amounts may indicate BPH [ range 0 - 4 ng/ml

normal to 40 years of age and then add 2 ng/ml per decade until 80 years.] A

PSA > 20 ng/ml is generally regarded as indicative of PC at any age. The

'free PSA' is a measure of bound and unbound PSA proteins and is held to be

more reliable than the 20 ng/ml ceiling.

 

Staging: PC itself may be described by the TNM staging method as well as

what is known as Gleason Score (GS) which is histologically determined based

on cellular architecture - the higher the Gleason Number [ range 0 - 5 ] the

less differentiated the cell. A Score is obtained by determining the two

most frequent cellular architectures and adding. Gleason Scores between 0 -

10 are then possible. A GS is believed to predict fairly accurately patient

survival: a GS 10 being the least prognostically hopeful. Prognostic

distinctions for a particular GS are commutative: so for example a GS [ 3 +

4] = 7 is different from a GS [ 4 + 3] also = 7 [ In this case the 3+4 is

prognostically better than the 4+3].

 

Most western cancer agencies are now recommending that all men over the age

of 50 undergo a DRE and PSA test. Individuals with a family history or

members of certain racial populations (Africans) are advised to start

testing at age 40. PC can be treated successfully if detected early and

given appropriate timely treatment. Some men however prefer not to know what

their PSA is due to a possible false positive indication, and in order to

avoid potentially destructive side effects of treatment. This position is

also taken by some governments as a cheap alternative to national screening

programmes that will appeal to the ignorant and uninformed. Failure to treat

PC may lead to premature death. In the UK 1000 men under the age of

retirement die of PC every year. In the USA the figure is about 5000. About

50,000 men in all die of prostate cancer every year in the USA, 10,000 in

the UK.

 

I hope this has helped TCM students appreciate the importance of this

disease in the west. There are many informational pages on prostate cancer

available on the internet. They all have an agenda of one sort or another

from the persuasive pieces written by the doctor trying to recruit another

patient for his clinic to the pharmaceutical company eager to demonstrate

how effective their brand of treatment can be. This piece has been written

with the inside knowledge of one who has survived the condition for seven

years as a non-castrate.

 

I am trying to translate my survival perience into something that will make

sense on both sides of the east-west conventional-traditional divide.

 

Unfortunately modern medicine knows as much about natural hormone control as

traditional medicine knows about sex-steroid synthesis. Just as modern

physics needed a Heisenberg to crystallise the uncertainties of quantum

mechanics, so we need a master alchemist who will fuse ancient and modern

into a brand new paradigm.

 

A successful treatment that did not impact on male quality of life would

certainly put TCM on the map and it is something I advise any ambitious

student to put his or her mind to. It is getting late now and I have spent

most of the evening putting this together. At some time in the future I'll

take a look at the existing TCM treatments for PC. In the meantime you might

like to take a look yourself at PC-SPES a very famous TCM/WM recipe that

really clobbered PSA and then got clobbered itself by the FDA for its pains;

or, Equiguard the big promise that never seemed to materialise. Or perhaps

some of the more recent treatments Vervain for instance (is it just another

estrogen analogue ?) or Sarcandra - does it really reduce prostatic

inflammation ? What about DIM the Great White Hope ? [ No I am not being an

inverted racialist, DIM is made from extract of white cabbage ;-]

 

Over to you Ken. I've had my say for today but pleeeese no more belly-button

gong fu. If you want to play something heavy put on Voodoo Chile and pass

that grass .....

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

 

 

kenrose2008 [kenrose2008]

30 September 2003 14:29

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

 

 

Jim,

 

One of the seeds that was planted in my brain,

partly through reading Zukofsky's book, was

the idea that the comparison of languages

and literatures provides us with an unequaled

opportunity to gain insight into what we think,

how we think it, and how our expressions and

our thoughts interact to create and fortify our

impressions and understanding of how the

world all fits together and works.

 

This year in Beijing I did two things that

reacted with this seed. I started learning how

to write the Dao De Jing, and I began to

study and practice calligraphy.

 

Both are having interesting effects on

how I think about a lot of things. I asked Sammy

what he had in mind when we was looking

for an authentic Chinese definition because

it seems to me that there are many characteristics

that combine to make something authentically

Chinese. That's not a new thought, admittedly.

In fact, it's more or less what Who Can Ride

the Dragon is a meditation about.

 

I wanted to know what he thinks an authentic Chinese

definition is or might be, and I have been

thinking about why it matters so much that

things be traced back to ancient sources.

 

 

I've been thinking about a lot of these things

for some while now. In fact I've been reading

the Dao De Jing in one language or another

for so close to forty years that it's startling.

And as I've worked through several chapters

of the book now, learning each of

the characters that make up the text, writing

the passages over and over, and engaging

in the slow and repetitious gong fu that the

language has always imposed on those who

learn and use it, I have started to think about

these words, phrases and their meanings

in whole new ways.

 

Part of what we do when we learn a language

is to know what each word means in our

own native language. And it is just this

basic and individual act of translation that

develops and provides the opportunities

of comparing unlikes to establish their

differences and similarities.

 

This is a kind of gong fu, as I just referred to

it. I can't think of or imagine any way that

anyone could come into possession of

a whole set of artifacts and capacities with

which to see or comprehend an authentic

Chinese definition without investing himself

or herself in actually doing this gong fu.

 

I'm not talking about calligraphy and the

Dao De Jing. That's just my personal

trip. I'm talking about learning characters,

acquiring the basic building blocks of

the language. And if you want to read a

splendid essay on the nature and function

of this modular building block arrangement

of the Chinese written language, check out

Lothar Ledderose's book Ten Thousand

Things.

 

I've never met anyone who has ever learned

Chinese who has not had to pass through

their own personal version of what amounts

to a wall of words, a massive number of

characters running to the thousands, at least

two or three thousand as starters.

 

People tend to feel about this in all different

ways, but the point is that no one who knows

Chinese has failed on this one point, for to

fail here is not to know Chinese.

 

This, by the way, is a good deal of what keeps

me wondering how it is that the early efforts

to organize and standardize Chinese medical

education and training in the States so sorely

neglected this whole area.

 

But that's an old story too. And I apologize for

digressing a bit. But when Emmanuel shouted

Bingo, I realized that yeah, there is a pretty

big set of issues hiding beneath this one

innocent question.

 

What the heck is an authentic Chinese definition?

 

Why does it matter?

 

And what shall we do about that?

 

Now we can relate to this set of highly

impertinent questions in all different ways.

 

I see them as opportunities, as described above.

 

I've written an essay recently, just a week or

two before I left Beijing, about the translation

of the good old Chinese medical term, shen2,

which we usually encounter as " spirit " in English

versions of texts in which it appears. In my essay

I suggest that another English word that takes

advantage of one such opportunity is " magic. "

 

If people here would like to read it, I'll post it

in the files section. It explains the rationale for

reading shen2 as magic and describes the

insight into the meaning of both words as

one particular case in which something

distinctive is gained in translation.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose " wrote:

> And if you want to read a

> splendid essay on the nature and function

> of this modular building block arrangement

> of the Chinese written language, check out

> Lothar Ledderose's book Ten Thousand Things. >>>

 

Per your recommendation, I ordered it.

 

 

 

> What the heck is an authentic Chinese definition? >>>

 

Especially now that China is incorporating WM and Western values

more and more.

 

 

> If people here would like to read it, I'll post it

> in the files section. It explains the rationale for

> reading shen2 as magic and describes the

> insight into the meaning of both words as

> one particular case in which something

> distinctive is gained in translation. >>>

 

We're still waiting to read it.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Sammy,

 

You are a rich man and, okay,

no more bellybutton gongfu...

 

....at least for the time being.

 

And thanks for the briefing on PC.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

There is an equivalent of the prostate in Chinese medicine. It is called the

jing shi/

essence chamber, where semen is stored. It is the male equivalent of bao gong,

or

uterus.

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

 

>

> The prostate is included in 20th century pulse diagnosis. Both the

> Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulse systems include it. But, you must

> keep in mind that there isn't any pulse for the prostate, per se,

> until it develops some disorder. If everything is operating

> normally, the pulses are very simple and don't show any kind of

> detail. You can read about it and other parts of the body in my

> article " Organs and Their Associated Pulses " in the pulse section of

> the Files.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, Anand.

 

The classical literature of Chinese medicine reveals more every time you read

it. I

have been reading and re-reading the Nan Jing for many years, and keep finding

new

things in it.

 

Jing also translates as 'warp', which I envision as an encompassing matrix

containing

several dimensions of information that can be accessed at different times and in

different ways.

 

In the Ayurvedic tradition, they have this to say about classical medical texts:

 

" The classical texts are like great oceans, and the physician is like a diver

who goes

beneath the surface and brings up pearls " .

 

 

Chinese Medicine , anand bapat

<acubapat> wrote:

> hi,

> my approach to ;literature is this.

> anyone who writes a book has got something to pass on

> to the future. that person feels it is important hence

> that hs been put in print.

> its up to the people to decide whether its important

> or not.

> in the early days when i started with acupuncture, i

> found most books very informative & useful.

> todaywhen i look at books, i find i know a lot of the

> stuff.

> my observations on books.

> during the passt eras when books were written they had

> something powerful to pass on. so they wrote books.

> they felt the info would stand the test of time.

> today books are written at the drop of a hat.

> i have come across people writing books after a few

> yeasr of experience & the books do not have much to

> offere, whch is not in the older books.

> that is the difference.

> if one reads a book one finds the hidden meaning.

> i have reread nei jing & every time i have learnt

> something more from the same book.

> thats why books are important .

> thats why the old books were called & referred to

> today as the classics.

> anand

>

>

>

>

> --- Holger Wendt <holger.wendt@t...> wrote: >

> > Why do we care about what is written in

> > old Chinese books anyhow?

> >

> > Ken

> >

> > That is a fundamental question! Holger

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

> =====

> Anand Bapat

> Pain Management Specialist

> Sports Injury Specialist

> Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

> 0402 472 897

>

>

>

>

> ______________________

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

> Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

--- zrosenberg2001 " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> There is an equivalent of the prostate in Chinese medicine. It is

called the jing shi/essence chamber, where semen is stored. It is

the male equivalent of bao gong, or uterus. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

In what era did the Chinese think that semen was stored in the

prostate? And when did it change?

 

 

Jim Ramholz