The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

October 1, 2003

Thanks for the info Z'ev.

In my rush to finish last night I omitted a full note on the seminal

vesicles (SV) which are anatomically distinct from the prostate. SV are

finger-like membranous protrusion chambers leading from the prostate that

grip the bladder and become engorged with semen. Prostatic fluid is stored

in seminal vesicles after it leaves the prostate but before it is released

through orgasmic pumping contractions down the urethra. The SV is simply a

storage chamber with no complex muscular-glandular secretory ability as is

the prostate. Fluid is expressed from the SV aided by contractions of

muscles in the whole pelvic floor, making a healthy ejaculation as forceful

as urination. This forceful ejaculate driven by the pelvic muscles is to

facilitate deep penetrate of semen into the vagina to ensure a good chance

of fertilisation. In some men infertility may be caused by occult BPH which

acts as a baffle to the forceful ejaculatory stream. [ A good early

indicator of problems to come may be the reduced ability to 'shoot'].

The prostate itself does not contribute much force to the ejaculation as

such. Experience shows it is still possible to ejaculate forcefully, post

prostatectomy (i.e. 'shoot' without a prostate) with whatever fluid is

available in the urethra at the time of orgasm. [ This is true provided the

surgeon was not a complete butcher and left the urethra intact, along with

some musculature and nerve material in the prostatic bed ]. Hence the

pumping action of the prostate is pre-ejaculatory, working in a priming

fashion to charge the seminal vesicles with fresh sperm and a nutritive

medium during sexual foreplay.

SV are often implicated in PC because of their proximity to the prostate and

the likelihood that whatever carcinogenic process is affecting the prostate

will also affect the SV. However, the SV are morphologically different to

the prostate. SV involvement in PC usually indicates a later stage disease,

a higher GS, and poorer prognosis.

Interesting eh ! I wonder Z'ev, if the jing shi included the seminal

vesicles / prostate / or both ? I am sure there is an answer somewhere

because I firmly believe the 'ancients' were first class observers and

anatomists - as good as any modern clinical scientist. Thanks again for the

info.

Cheers,

Sammy.

PS. This is my Copyright note. Not because I am a Blue Meany but because

what I write is from personal experience and years of study. If anyone

wishes to duplicate my words feel free to do so with the proviso that

recognition is given to the author that's me G.A. " Sammy " Bates 2003

ga.bates at the end of quoted text or in a footnote if you are

writing up an assignment. Since the information is public domain it is in

your interest to do this explicitly to avoid any suspicion of plagiarism. If

an examiner / project marker comes across what looks like a 'good piece of

work from a student nowadays all he has to do is run a phrase or two through

Google to see if any matches come up. If a match does come up and it is not

your work, you are in for it. So that is a timely reminder for everyone to

respect other people's work. You can use it, but please don't abuse it ;-)

What do you think Ken ?

zrosenberg2001 [zrosenbe]

01 October 2003 05:07

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

There is an equivalent of the prostate in Chinese medicine. It is called

the jing shi/

essence chamber, where semen is stored. It is the male equivalent of bao

gong, or

uterus.

Chinese Medicine , " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

>

> The prostate is included in 20th century pulse diagnosis. Both the

> Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulse systems include it. But, you must

> keep in mind that there isn't any pulse for the prostate, per se,

> until it develops some disorder. If everything is operating

> normally, the pulses are very simple and don't show any kind of

> detail. You can read about it and other parts of the body in my

> article " Organs and Their Associated Pulses " in the pulse section of

> the Files.

>

> Jim Ramholz

October 1, 2003

Sammy:

While this is a nice summary of the Western anatomy, how would you

put this in CM terms? When did the Chinese distinguish the prostate

and SV from the general jing shi or jing fang---Life Gate or Essence

Chamber?

Jim Ramholz

Chinese Medicine , wrote:

> In my rush to finish last night I omitted a full note on the

seminal

> vesicles (SV) which are anatomically distinct from the prostate.

SV are

> finger-like membranous protrusion chambers leading from the

prostate that

> grip the bladder and become engorged with semen. Prostatic fluid

is stored

> in seminal vesicles after it leaves the prostate but before it is

released

> through orgasmic pumping contractions down the urethra. The SV is

simply a

> storage chamber with no complex muscular-glandular secretory

ability as is

> the prostate. Fluid is expressed from the SV aided by contractions

of

> muscles in the whole pelvic floor, making a healthy ejaculation as

forceful

> as urination. This forceful ejaculate driven by the pelvic muscles

is to

> facilitate deep penetrate of semen into the vagina to ensure a

good chance

> of fertilisation. In some men infertility may be caused by occult

BPH which

> acts as a baffle to the forceful ejaculatory stream. [ A good early

> indicator of problems to come may be the reduced ability

to 'shoot'].

>

> The prostate itself does not contribute much force to the

ejaculation as

> such. Experience shows it is still possible to ejaculate

forcefully, post

> prostatectomy (i.e. 'shoot' without a prostate) with whatever

fluid is

> available in the urethra at the time of orgasm. [ This is true

provided the

> surgeon was not a complete butcher and left the urethra intact,

along with

> some musculature and nerve material in the prostatic bed ]. Hence

the

> pumping action of the prostate is pre-ejaculatory, working in a

priming

> fashion to charge the seminal vesicles with fresh sperm and a

nutritive

> medium during sexual foreplay.

>

> SV are often implicated in PC because of their proximity to the

prostate and

> the likelihood that whatever carcinogenic process is affecting the

prostate

> will also affect the SV. However, the SV are morphologically

different to

> the prostate. SV involvement in PC usually indicates a later stage

disease,

> a higher GS, and poorer prognosis.

>

> Interesting eh ! I wonder Z'ev, if the jing shi included the

seminal

> vesicles / prostate / or both ? I am sure there is an answer

somewhere

> because I firmly believe the 'ancients' were first class observers

and

> anatomists - as good as any modern clinical scientist. Thanks

again for the

> info.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Sammy.

>

> PS. This is my Copyright note. Not because I am a Blue Meany but

because

> what I write is from personal experience and years of study. If

anyone

> wishes to duplicate my words feel free to do so with the proviso

that

> recognition is given to the author that's me G.A. " Sammy " Bates

2003

> ga.bates@v... at the end of quoted text or in a footnote if you are

> writing up an assignment. Since the information is public domain

it is in

> your interest to do this explicitly to avoid any suspicion of

plagiarism. If

> an examiner / project marker comes across what looks like a 'good

piece of

> work from a student nowadays all he has to do is run a phrase or

two through

> Google to see if any matches come up. If a match does come up and

it is not

> your work, you are in for it. So that is a timely reminder for

everyone to

> respect other people's work. You can use it, but please don't

abuse it ;-)

> What do you think Ken ?

>

> zrosenberg2001 [zrosenbe@s...]

> 01 October 2003 05:07

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

>

> There is an equivalent of the prostate in Chinese medicine. It

is called

> the jing shi/

> essence chamber, where semen is stored. It is the male

equivalent of bao

> gong, or

> uterus.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " James

Ramholz "

> <jramholz> wrote:

>

> >

> > The prostate is included in 20th century pulse diagnosis. Both

the

> > Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulse systems include it. But, you

must

> > keep in mind that there isn't any pulse for the prostate, per

se,

> > until it develops some disorder. If everything is operating

> > normally, the pulses are very simple and don't show any kind of

> > detail. You can read about it and other parts of the body in my

> > article " Organs and Their Associated Pulses " in the pulse

section of

> > the Files.

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

>

October 1, 2003

Hi Z'ev

> ...the prostate in Chinese medicine ... is called jing shi/ essence

> chamber, where semen is stored. It is the male equivalent of bao

> gong, or uterus.

Z'ev, what is the pinyin term and translation for the seminal

vesicles, which also store semen-jing?

Best regards,

Email: <

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

October 1, 2003

Apparently, the use of jing as semen goes back to the time of the Huang Di Nei

Jing.

The term jing shi/essence chamber also exists from that time. Concepts of jing

as

semen are also discussed in detail in the Mawangdui manuscripts.

> Z'ev:

>

> In what era did the Chinese think that semen was stored in the

> prostate? And when did it change?

>

> Jim Ramholz

October 1, 2003

Many anatomical concepts are discussed in detail in classical Chinese medicine,

many

are not. I think the essence chamber as discussed doesn't distinguish between

seminal vesicles and prostate. I believe, however, that the bao luo, which are

said to

bring jing/essence to the uterus from the kidneys, may have a similar function

in men

as well, although I cannot site a source for this.

Another anatomical anomaly in Chinese medicine is the mo yuan, or membrane

source. It is more a location and space rather than anatomical construct,

located

between the viscera and the trunk, most likely the abdominal cavity. It is a

major

concept in damp-warmth disease, the area where damp-warm pathogens are said to

'hide'.

Chinese Medicine , <ga.bates@v...> wrote:

> Thanks for the info Z'ev.

>

> Interesting eh ! I wonder Z'ev, if the jing shi included the seminal

> vesicles / prostate / or both ? I am sure there is an answer somewhere

> because I firmly believe the 'ancients' were first class observers and

> anatomists - as good as any modern clinical scientist. Thanks again for the

> info.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Sammy.

October 1, 2003

Chinese Medicine , " zrosenberg2001 " :

> Apparently, the use of jing as semen goes back to the time of the

Huang Di Nei Jing. The term jing shi/essence chamber also exists

from that time. Concepts of jing as semen are also discussed in

detail in the Mawangdui manuscripts.

Z'ev:

Jing as semen is commonly understood.

But I was asking about the Chinese idea of the prostate and its

capacity to store semen; if they had that idea, and when it might

have changed.

It's really more a question about the reliability of the classics,

knowing what we know today about medicine---and how well the

classical models hold up to scrutiny. Some of the classic

information seems obsolete.

Jim Ramholz

October 1, 2003

I can't really say if there is a separate term in TCM anatomy for seminal

vesicles. I

suspect it would be covered under the concept of essence chamber and/or kidneys.

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi Z'ev

>

> > ...the prostate in Chinese medicine ... is called jing shi/ essence

> > chamber, where semen is stored. It is the male equivalent of bao

> > gong, or uterus.

>

> Z'ev, what is the pinyin term and translation for the seminal

> vesicles, which also store semen-jing?

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <@e...>

>

October 1, 2003

Beautiful, Z'ev. Thank you. Matrices are made of warp and weave.

Emmanuel Segmen

Ze'v wrote: The classical literature of Chinese medicine reveals more every time

you read it. I have been reading and re-reading the Nan Jing for many years,

and keep finding new things in it.

Jing also translates as 'warp', which I envision as an encompassing matrix

containing several dimensions of information that can be accessed at different

times and in

different ways.

In the Ayurvedic tradition, they have this to say about classical medical texts:

" The classical texts are like great oceans, and the physician is like a diver

who goes

beneath the surface and brings up pearls " .

Chinese Medicine , anand bapat

<acubapat> wrote:

> hi,

> my approach to ;literature is this.

> anyone who writes a book has got something to pass on

> to the future. that person feels it is important hence

> that hs been put in print.

> its up to the people to decide whether its important

> or not.

> in the early days when i started with acupuncture, i

> found most books very informative & useful.

> todaywhen i look at books, i find i know a lot of the

> stuff.

> my observations on books.

> during the passt eras when books were written they had

> something powerful to pass on. so they wrote books.

> they felt the info would stand the test of time.

> today books are written at the drop of a hat.

> i have come across people writing books after a few

> yeasr of experience & the books do not have much to

> offere, whch is not in the older books.

> that is the difference.

> if one reads a book one finds the hidden meaning.

> i have reread nei jing & every time i have learnt

> something more from the same book.

> thats why books are important .

> thats why the old books were called & referred to

> today as the classics.

> anand

>

> --- Holger Wendt <holger.wendt@t...> wrote: >

> > Why do we care about what is written in

> > old Chinese books anyhow?

> >

> > Ken

> >

> > That is a fundamental question! Holger

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

> =====

> Anand Bapat

> Pain Management Specialist

> Sports Injury Specialist

> Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

> 0402 472 897

>

> ______________________

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

> Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

October 1, 2003

Jim,

That is what I was hoping someone would tell me !

So frustrating, but to be expected I guess. After all WM students are still

told that William Harvey, an Englishman, discovered the circulation system

just a few hundred years ago. The problem is made much worse by commentators

like Kaptchuck who assert the Chinese have no more than a cursory

understanding of the physical anatomical functioning of the heart.

Were then does this leave us with much more obscure organs such as the

prostate and seminal vesicles ? I'd say we were on a hiding to nothing when

and until each and every one of us can access and read original TCM texts.

We need an opening up of this area of knowledge like PubMed online did for

the WM journals. If it were not for PubMed and the Entrez-PubMed search

engine I probably would not be alive today. Certainly not as fit and strong

as I am, if the knowledge in those journals had been hidden from me behind a

curtain of white coats. The white coats like their secrets east and west, eh

;-)

To say that making publicly available all TCM texts online would

revolutionise medicine is an understatement. However, I doubt if such a

project has ever crossed the mind of a single official in the Chinese

government. There are no more revolutionaries, sadly. China like England is

just becoming another outpost for McDonalds.

Sammy.

James Ramholz [jramholz]

01 October 2003 09:39

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

Sammy:

While this is a nice summary of the Western anatomy, how would you

put this in CM terms? When did the Chinese distinguish the prostate

and SV from the general jing shi or jing fang---Life Gate or Essence

Chamber?

Jim Ramholz

Chinese Medicine , wrote:

> In my rush to finish last night I omitted a full note on the

seminal

> vesicles (SV) which are anatomically distinct from the prostate.

SV are

> finger-like membranous protrusion chambers leading from the

prostate that

> grip the bladder and become engorged with semen. Prostatic fluid

is stored

> in seminal vesicles after it leaves the prostate but before it is

released

> through orgasmic pumping contractions down the urethra. The SV is

simply a

> storage chamber with no complex muscular-glandular secretory

ability as is

> the prostate. Fluid is expressed from the SV aided by contractions

of

> muscles in the whole pelvic floor, making a healthy ejaculation as

forceful

> as urination. This forceful ejaculate driven by the pelvic muscles

is to

> facilitate deep penetrate of semen into the vagina to ensure a

good chance

> of fertilisation. In some men infertility may be caused by occult

BPH which

> acts as a baffle to the forceful ejaculatory stream. [ A good early

> indicator of problems to come may be the reduced ability

to 'shoot'].

>

> The prostate itself does not contribute much force to the

ejaculation as

> such. Experience shows it is still possible to ejaculate

forcefully, post

> prostatectomy (i.e. 'shoot' without a prostate) with whatever

fluid is

> available in the urethra at the time of orgasm. [ This is true

provided the

> surgeon was not a complete butcher and left the urethra intact,

along with

> some musculature and nerve material in the prostatic bed ]. Hence

the

> pumping action of the prostate is pre-ejaculatory, working in a

priming

> fashion to charge the seminal vesicles with fresh sperm and a

nutritive

> medium during sexual foreplay.

>

> SV are often implicated in PC because of their proximity to the

prostate and

> the likelihood that whatever carcinogenic process is affecting the

prostate

> will also affect the SV. However, the SV are morphologically

different to

> the prostate. SV involvement in PC usually indicates a later stage

disease,

> a higher GS, and poorer prognosis.

>

> Interesting eh ! I wonder Z'ev, if the jing shi included the

seminal

> vesicles / prostate / or both ? I am sure there is an answer

somewhere

> because I firmly believe the 'ancients' were first class observers

and

> anatomists - as good as any modern clinical scientist. Thanks

again for the

> info.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Sammy.

>

> PS. This is my Copyright note. Not because I am a Blue Meany but

because

> what I write is from personal experience and years of study. If

anyone

> wishes to duplicate my words feel free to do so with the proviso

that

> recognition is given to the author that's me G.A. " Sammy " Bates

2003

> ga.bates@v... at the end of quoted text or in a footnote if you are

> writing up an assignment. Since the information is public domain

it is in

> your interest to do this explicitly to avoid any suspicion of

plagiarism. If

> an examiner / project marker comes across what looks like a 'good

piece of

> work from a student nowadays all he has to do is run a phrase or

two through

> Google to see if any matches come up. If a match does come up and

it is not

> your work, you are in for it. So that is a timely reminder for

everyone to

> respect other people's work. You can use it, but please don't

abuse it ;-)

> What do you think Ken ?

>

> zrosenberg2001 [zrosenbe@s...]

> 01 October 2003 05:07

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

>

> There is an equivalent of the prostate in Chinese medicine. It

is called

> the jing shi/

> essence chamber, where semen is stored. It is the male

equivalent of bao

> gong, or

> uterus.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " James

Ramholz "

> <jramholz> wrote:

>

> >

> > The prostate is included in 20th century pulse diagnosis. Both

the

> > Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulse systems include it. But, you

must

> > keep in mind that there isn't any pulse for the prostate, per

se,

> > until it develops some disorder. If everything is operating

> > normally, the pulses are very simple and don't show any kind of

> > detail. You can read about it and other parts of the body in my

> > article " Organs and Their Associated Pulses " in the pulse

section of

> > the Files.

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

>

October 1, 2003

Sammy,

>

> To say that making publicly available all TCM texts online would

> revolutionise medicine is an understatement. However, I doubt if

such a

> project has ever crossed the mind of a single official in the

Chinese

> government. There are no more revolutionaries, sadly. China like

England is

> just becoming another outpost for McDonalds.

We'll table for another time the discussion

about what China is becoming, if that's okay

with you. But I'll just say in passing that

when I left Beijing in late August, parts of

the country had about 20 days of drinking water

supplies left. So there are a lot of factors

that come to bear on what China is and is becoming.

There are several digitization projects having

to do with Chinese medical classics and related

materials that have been underway in the PRC

for several years now. I'm not up to date on

where this work stands. But it has not only

crossed many people's minds there, but a good

deal of time and effort has been invested in

producing web-able materials.

Remember that there is an enormous amount of

material involved here.

I just did a quick search using metacrawler

and the phrase " Chinese medical texts " and

got this url:

http://helios.unive.it/~pregadio/ikei.html

I've got some further thoughts on the whole

enterprise of looking for and establishing

correspondences between ancient Chinese concepts

of anatomy and physiology and the terms and

concepts of modern biomedical science.

But I promise, no bellybutton hopkido

this afternoon. I just hiked up to

the top of a mountain overlooking

Angel Fire and just feel like relaxing

with a little cross cultural relativism.

Ken

October 1, 2003

Chinese Medicine , <ga.bates@v...>

I'd say we were on a hiding to nothing when and until each and every

one of us can access and read original TCM texts. >>>

That's probably not going to happen. Modern journals and texts are

easier to read because they are simple and redundent. The classical

texts are more difficult, and are not really written to explicate

their subjects. For example, if you read Birch's article on the

Sanjiao in a recent issue of EJOM, the Chinese still haven't come to

any conclusion about what it is. This sort of thing makes a

scientific interpretation of the material much more attractive.

> We need an opening up of this area of knowledge like PubMed online

did for the WM journals. >>>

Good idea---even essential. But where is the money to do it going to

come from? I am hoping that COMP publishers will, at least, create a

searchable electronic library of their published texts.

Jim Ramholz

October 2, 2003

So frustrating, but to be expected I guess. After all WM students are still

told that William Harvey, an Englishman, discovered the circulation system

just a few hundred years ago. The problem is made much worse by commentators

like Kaptchuck who assert the Chinese have no more than a cursory

understanding of the physical anatomical functioning of the heart.

>>>>Unschuld also makes the point the chinese did not have the understanding of

a true circulatory closed system.

Alon

October 2, 2003

I get cynical when I hear about some of the goings on over there, although

we probably get a pretty jaundiced view via the media. No real news of the

water problem you mention - so thanks for the reassurance Ken.

http://helios.unive.it/~pregadio/ikei.html

It is good to know the Chinese are on the case so to speak. Perhaps they

will not complete it in the same short time it took the previous US

administration to get the 'Internet Superhighway' up and running, PubMed and

all, but there is hope.

> I just hiked up to the top of a mountain overlooking Angel Fire and just

feel like relaxing with a little cross cultural relativism.

Hm ...not sure if this is literal or metaphoric exercise. I'm a 2 mile run a

day man + weights. I started bench pressing 100 kg this month. That is my

gong fu (although I'd love to learn some qi gong too) - plus a determination

NOT to allow this condition to beat me until I live out the 'three score and

ten' that is my alloted due.

Cheers,

Sammy.

kenrose2008 [kenrose2008]

01 October 2003 23:38

Chinese Medicine

Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

Sammy,

>

> To say that making publicly available all TCM texts online would

> revolutionise medicine is an understatement. However, I doubt if

such a

> project has ever crossed the mind of a single official in the

Chinese

> government. There are no more revolutionaries, sadly. China like

England is

> just becoming another outpost for McDonalds.

We'll table for another time the discussion

about what China is becoming, if that's okay

with you. But I'll just say in passing that

when I left Beijing in late August, parts of

the country had about 20 days of drinking water

supplies left. So there are a lot of factors

that come to bear on what China is and is becoming.

There are several digitization projects having

to do with Chinese medical classics and related

materials that have been underway in the PRC

for several years now. I'm not up to date on

where this work stands. But it has not only

crossed many people's minds there, but a good

deal of time and effort has been invested in

producing web-able materials.

Remember that there is an enormous amount of

material involved here.

I just did a quick search using metacrawler

and the phrase " Chinese medical texts " and

got this url:

http://helios.unive.it/~pregadio/ikei.html

I've got some further thoughts on the whole

enterprise of looking for and establishing

correspondences between ancient Chinese concepts

of anatomy and physiology and the terms and

concepts of modern biomedical science.

But I promise, no bellybutton hopkido

this afternoon. I just hiked up to

the top of a mountain overlooking

Angel Fire and just feel like relaxing

with a little cross cultural relativism.

Ken

October 2, 2003

Uh oh !

> Unschuld .. .. a true circulatory closed system.

What is that for goodness sake? Are we talking about the cooling system in a

car or the human blood system ?

The blood circulatory system is definitly NOT closed. Anatomically the

following organs / tissues have a 'feed-in' or feed-out' with respect to the

bloof circulation:

1. Lungs - provide oxygen for conversion of glycogen to energy + CO2 + water

in mitochondria

2. Muscles - dissipate mechanical energy supplied by said reaction

3. Skin - dissipates waste products or respiratiion

4. Liver - filters and purifies blood

I haven't got time to go through the lot. But even from a simplistic WM

perspective there is so much interconnectedness between the circulatory

system and other system that blood circulation cannot possibly be regarded

as 'closed'. Just stop one of those inputs (air - lungs) and see how long

the blood survives intact as a functioning entity. Not closed. No way.

Failure to perceive the blood system as a closed system (Unschuld) is a long

way from failure to appreciate the physical nature of the circulatory

mechanism of the heart and associated blood vessels (Katpchuck).

I am just dipping into this from afar, but I simply cannot believe 4000

years of highly succesful TCM practice was based on erroneous notions of

physical anatomy. There is 'one world' not a multiplicity of solipsistic

realities one can trip through as the flavour of the day dictates. No, the

TCM 'ancients' knew what they were about even if this generation has some

confusion - you cannot base real success on purely fanciful notions [ Not

unless you are a Hollywood producer that is - but that is another story].

Sammy

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

02 October 2003 04:45

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy

So frustrating, but to be expected I guess. After all WM students are still

told that William Harvey, an Englishman, discovered the circulation system

just a few hundred years ago. The problem is made much worse by commentators

like Kaptchuck who assert the Chinese have no more than a cursory

understanding of the physical anatomical functioning of the heart.

>>>>Unschuld also makes the point the chinese did not have the understanding

of a true circulatory closed system.

Alon

October 2, 2003

Dear Sammy

Sammy:

I am just dipping into this from afar, but I simply cannot believe 4000

years of highly succesful TCM practice was based on erroneous notions of

physical anatomy. There is 'one world' not a multiplicity of solipsistic

realities one can trip through as the flavour of the day dictates. No, the

TCM 'ancients' knew what they were about even if this generation has some

confusion - you cannot base real success on purely fanciful notions [ Not

unless you are a Hollywood producer that is - but that is another story].

Marco:

It begs the question how useful is Western Anatomy really for Chinese medicine?

Most of my western medicine friends seam to have forgotten the word physics

anatomony nearly all the basics sciences in favour of physiology and

pathophysiology which has embedded the basic science but are not exactly the

same thing the later is a bit more closer to living life in an open or close

society:-)

When put against the wall my very good friend says anatomy is important (the

western doctor I have mention before some of you may or may not remember her)

but in the clinic never really seen any convincing example as to her (read hers'

practice) of this learnt idea.

Others friends also western doctors admittedly disalutionate with the western

medical model as a hierarchal tool and what not (these are not my words, they

are political idealist in my opinion so are bound to disfavour Western as a

Hierarchical tool...)

Anyway they reluctantly admit there is a discrepancy between learning and

practice as is also with Chinese medicine...

and maybe anything as complex as not just health and illness per say but human

nature and interactive behaviour...

But maybe As Hsu Ta-Ch'un

Put it elegantly when he stated something like:

It is about transforming once qi in order to (teach) the patient to transform

there qi (NOT A DIRECT QUOTE).

So what things aspects does this?

and maybe Z'ev can post the direct quote (again) as Unsculd put is in his

translation of Forgotten traditions of Ancient .

I am sure Alon can give some good examples and am looking forward to them...

Marco

October 2, 2003

Sammy,

China is a very complicated place. I've

lived there for much of the past 11 years,

and I cannot say anything much about

what is going on. Cynicism is called

for. Skepticism is mandatory.

Critical thinking is an absolute prerequisite,

although, alas, most who approach China...

I don't know why I single out China, for this

is a widepread condition...appear to lack the

capacity for criticial thinking.

I've worked in the media off and on over

more than twenty years, and there is no

greater cause of jaundice. The media are

primarily instruments by which people in

power attempt to direct, divert, and otherwise

control public attention. Less frequently they

aim to and often succeed at informing the

public as to what to believe about this or

that topic of reportage. But my experience

has taught me that principally the media

are used to make a big noise with the right

hand so that the movements and actions

of the left will be less obvious.

With regard to China specifically, I'd say

the media get most everything wrong most

of the time. Again, not sure that that needs to

be limited to China as a subject of media

attention.

I can give no real reassurance about

anything. But as I said, there is a great

deal of activity...and resulting products

of various levels of quality...related to

digitization of Chinese medical literature.

The big barrier for most in the West is

not access to the materials but to the

language in which they are written and,

beyond that, to a methodology for understanding

the often complicated texts that are written in

that language.

My hike was a pretty vivid metaphor. No

two things were alike, and the mountain

and the forest were crazily comparing

them all as I wandered up the path.

100 kg is a non trivial amount. Be careful.

Just one comment on your use of the term gong fu.

That it's hard work alone does not really

meet all the criteria of gong fu. There must

be time, i.e., duration. Hard work over a

long time.

What's a long time?

You have already got the order of magnitude

scoped out. A lifetime is so short.

There is a lot of magic hidden in ancient

Chinese sources. Amazing how some look

right at it and never see it.

Like the mysteries and secrets of the dao.

Even after you spell them out, they remain

mysteries and secrets.

Invest in loss.

Ken

October 2, 2003

Ken: China is a very complicated place. I've lived there for much of

the past 11 years, and I cannot say anything much about what is

going on. Cynicism is called for. Skepticism is mandatory.

Critical thinking is an absolute prerequisite, although, alas, most

who approach China...I don't know why I single out China, for this

is a widepread condition...appear to lack the capacity for criticial

thinking.

I've worked in the media off and on over more than twenty years, and

there is no greater cause of jaundice. The media are primarily

instruments by which people in power attempt to direct, divert, and

otherwise control public attention. Less frequently they aim to and

often succeed at informing the public as to what to believe about

this or that topic of reportage. But my experience has taught me

that principally the media are used to make a big noise with the

right hand so that the movements and actions of the left will be

less obvious.

Atti: Sounds exactly the same in the West! Espcially with countries

that are so power driven like the US and UK. You'll never know the

truth, its always twisted to make a trap for fools (Kipling). Best

thing is to simply follow your own path and always look at

everything with cynicism and skepticism!

Talking of paths, i'll be in Beijing from February to June for my

clinical practice, Ken. Do you know when the Universities open after

new years eve in February?

October 2, 2003

Attilio,

Exactly. The East is the West!

It all just depends which way

you're facing.

Better check with the schools in

Beijing directly. I'm not even sure

when Spring Festival is next year.

See, I leave China for a month

and I lose touch with everything!

Ken

October 2, 2003

Failure to perceive the blood system as a closed system (Unschuld) is a long

way from failure to appreciate the physical nature of the circulatory

mechanism of the heart and associated blood vessels (Katpchuck).

>>>>Unschuld also make the point that no were in CM the heart is described as a

pump

Alon

October 2, 2003

Hi Sammy,

I don't dispute your comments which I view as a kind of reality. Anatomists

consider the human circulatory system a closed system by convention. It's a

closed system in the sense that it's enclosed within semipermeable membranes in

the locations you mentioned. It's actually sort of an open system in the kidney

and liver. But still, what ever is filtered out in the kidney gets put back

into the blood via active and passive transport across membranes of the

nephrons. Red blood cells do not leave the lumen of the endothelium until they

lyse and are scavenged by macrophages. You are correct in that things enter and

leave the blood quite readily at a myriad of specific locations. Lots of

on-ramps and off-ramps like a freeway system here in California. Even the white

blood cells leave the circulatory system by squeezing out between endothelial

cells.

The reason it's called " closed " by convention is that people earlier thought the

entire thorax was filled with blood. At other times people believed that the

blood ebbed and flowed through the vasculature. Now we realize that the blood

is pumped by the heart and the proximal aorta is elastic and acts as a capacitor

to allow for continuous flow at a minimum (diastolic) pressure.

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

Merritt College, Anatomy and Physiology

-

ga.bates

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, October 02, 2003 1:43 AM

RE: Re: The PROSTATE in TCM Anatomy