Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 , " dragon90405 " < yulong@m...> wrote: > > It seems to me that a large part of the > definition, both denotative and connotative, > is related to explanations. If we have an > explanation for any given cause and effect > relationship, then it does not seem to be > magic. Magic appears when explanations are > not present. I agree perhaps. However some explanations are better than others. It has to do with their predictive and utilitarian power. So the modern explanation of the solar system is definitely better, not just different, than the copernican or ptolemaic view. they were just wrong and could not account for observed phenomena. I think, similarly, most magic will eventually be explained in rational ways. If you are saying that all explanations are equally flawed and that magic is real (i.e. events occur in the physical world for which there is no measurable physical correlate), then I disagree. All events have physical correlates, but this is not the extent of the phenomena. Love cannot be reduced to biochemical changes, yet our brains remain dependent upon those changes in order to perceive it. So even after things are " explained " , mystery and poetry still remain. they are just no longer wholly otherworldy events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Ken, My first teacher (when I was just 21) was a gentleman named Torkom Saraydarian from a Sufi tribe and trained in Himalayan schools. Torkom said magic is any accomplishment done by a human being for some advantage. Really anything. Making a car or a calculator is magic. Or using math or medical science to accomplish a task. Torkom said all of this is black magic with only one exception. He said when all endeavors are done in the service of humanity, it is then white magic. He was clear that we have power in our thoughts, spoken words and deeds. It can all go well or go badly beginning with our intention to serve. It stays on course by maintaining that intention of service throughout all distractions. This is the most simplistic and most realistic definition of magic I've understood. It can be informative when you look at human endeavor in this manner. It more or less says what you've already said. Emmanuel Segmen - dragon90405 Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:40 PM Magic Bob, and Everyone,What is magic?I'll give you my definition, but would reallylike to hear what each of you have to sayabout it, since you've been talking aboutit recently, and I often find it to be anundefined or poorly defined term.My interest, by the way, is more than idleas I'm going to be giving a talk on DaoistSex Magic at the conference in Rothenburgnext month. For anyone who wants to join in or followthis discussion, I suggest you begin bylooking at the word in a good dictionary.The entry at dictionary.com is pretty good.Look also at the derivation of the word.It has to do with greatness.It seems to me that a large part of thedefinition, both denotative and connotative,is related to explanations. If we have anexplanation for any given cause and effectrelationship, then it does not seem to bemagic. Magic appears when explanations arenot present.In fact, one of the primary responses thatpeople tend to feel when confronted byanything magic is to ask "How did he/shedo that?"And of course the prime rule of magiciansis not to reveal how the trick is done.Once a suitable explanation for how resultX obtains from cause Y is known, then theaction ceases to be considered or experiencedas magic.Yet consider that virtually every explanationthat humankind has ever come up with forthe vast bulk of phenomena has been provenby later humans to be wrong...or at leastinadequate.It doesn't seem to matter if our explanationsare correct or not as long as they seem tobe correct and we accept that there is anadequate explanation, then it is not magic...at least not according to the "definition"that I've suggested her. Does this changewhen we take into account later generationsare almost certainly going to continue toadvance the frontiers of knowledge and todiscover that what those curious ancientpeople of the late 20th and early 21st centuriesheld to be the explanations of phenomenawere certainly all cockeyed nonsense?Bucky Fuller defined wealth in two categories:physical and metaphysical. Physical wealth,he pointed out, according to the second lawof thermodynamics, can never be reduced.Matter/energe cannot be uncreated, onlyrearranged. The basic substance of thingsis therefore the physical wealth of theuniverse and as it appears to our understandingnow, it cannot be destroyed. [There is anotherview of this, naturally enough, which anyoneinterested can check out by typing the phrase"decay of the false vacuum" into theirfavorite search engine and then pouring overthe search results. But we'll leave that foranother time.]Metaphysical wealth, he held, was alwaysincreasing, as even if were to discovertoday that everything we thought trueup until yesterday was wrong, we wouldstill know more today than yesterdaysince we were now able to evaluate allknowledge. Thus, Bucky pointed out inhis Operating Manual for Spaceship Earththat we humans are always and inescablybecoming richer and richer, with a physicalwealth that cannot be destroyed and ametaphysical wealth that is always increasing.Does this mean that magic might somedaydisappear from human experience? I'm following up on this because I believe,as you both have suggested, that magic andmedicine are closely related. I find thattraditional Chinese medicine has a particularlyintimate relationship with magic.And I would sincerely like to hear people'sviews on this topic, as it will help meto focus my own thoughts for this talkI have to give on Daoist Sex Magic.Sorry if the foregoing is a bit scattered,I could claim that the current chaos ofBeijing has rattled my already rattledbrain. Things are getting pretty strangehere as fear of SARS continues to generatemass hysteria and curiously irrationalbehavior on the part of a growing numberof individuals. But that's another story,too. And I'll leave it at that for now.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 > What is magic? Ken, I can only talk about Tibetan Buddhist magic. In Tibetan, what we call a magician or sorcerer is called a ngakpa. Ngak means mantra or a " spell. " By mantra, I mean a verbal utterance endowed with special power or potency which is believed to compel some action, typically by invoking the power of some higher, noncorporeal being or entity. So a ngnakpa is someone who influences events and things in the consensual phenomenal world (if there is such a thing) through the recitation of mantram (plural of mantra). However, in real life, the recitation of such mantram in Tibetan Buddhist magic is usually accompanied by concentrated visualization (of the intended result), ritual offerings or other forms of ritualized sympathetic magic, mudra (magical physical gestures or postures), music, and/or yantra (magical diagrams or drawings). So a ngakpa is someone who makes things happen through the utterance of mantram plus the above described accompanying magical activities and appliances. To become a ngakpa, one must first receive the mantra through transmission (lung) from someone who themself holds the mantra and has accomplished it performance. The recipient must also be " empowered " to develop the performance of the mantra (wang) and must be given the instructions on how to develop and deploy this power (ti, explanation). Then the recipient must spend a longer or shorter time developing this power. Usually, this means going into solitary retreat and practicing the magic until certain signs are manifest. Depending on the practitioner's personal power, karma, faith, and diligence as well as those same kinds of factors from the lineage of practitioners from whom the practice was received, this may take anywhere from 100,000 to tens of millions of recitations or never. Depending on the manta and the power being sought, those signs could consist of a dream, a waking vision, or a physical event, and Tibetan Buddhist teachers evaluate or grade their student's performance based on such " signs of completion " or accomplishment. After the student has accomplished (drub) a practice such as this, they can then use the mantra at their discretion within the confines of the vows and injunctions accompanying the mantra and its practice. In any case, that's what I meant by magic. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Bob, Thanks for this brief explanation of the terms and operations of Tibetan Buddhist magic. One of the reasons that I posed the question was to explore with you and others who may be interested the relationship and role of magic...particularly word magic...and traditional Chinese medicine. I've noticed for many years the presence of a deep urge in many who come to Chinese medicine, whether as students, practitioners, or patients, to experience a kind of magic. I would be very interested to read people's thoughts on the matter. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Often, when I am making the most rudimentary lifestyle suggestions to my patients: sleep more, exercise more, eat green vegetables, I joke with them. I say that even thought I am telling them what they already know, my words have magic. We laugh and my point is made.... > Bob, > > Thanks for this brief explanation of > the terms and operations of Tibetan > Buddhist magic. One of the reasons that > I posed the question was to explore with > you and others who may be interested the > relationship and role of magic...particularly > word magic...and traditional Chinese medicine. > > I've noticed for many years the presence > of a deep urge in many who come to Chinese > medicine, whether as students, practitioners, > or patients, to experience a kind of magic. > > I would be very interested to read people's > thoughts on the matter. > > > Ken > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 suggestion: post an excerpt or two from your article just a few words to inpire all of our magic and it could also enrol people to buy your forthcoming book ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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