Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hi list, In an "ideal situation" what are the hours a undergraduate degree "ought" to be? And what are the hours for a post graduate degree. Both in CM "TCM" and specifically acumoxa i.e. together and apart? What could be consider postgraduate training three years within a medical division for example degree general internal medicine GP and then post graduate orthopaedics gynaecology neurology etc. for three years.... And apart from that MA-MSc coursers Mphil and Ph.D. I am talking about a "ideal" situation... What do they do in the Chinese Vietnamese Korean Taiwanese Japanese (presumably the Japanese is distinctively different?) I am not talking about this is right or wrong just in an "ideal" situation have to put something down for MoH and unfortunately it is all being done on a very cowboy manners but that is the way it is for the time being and hence any suggestions welcome... Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Marco-- Not sure if this is what you wanted, but here are the guidelines for accedited OM programs in the US, from http://acaom.org/downloads/handbook/part_1.pdf _________ Criterion 8.1 - (a) Program length: (These credit requirements are over and above the 60 semester credits required for admission to the professional master's degree level program). The minimum length of the professional acupuncture curriculum must be at least three academic years (a minimum of [93] 105 semester credits or [1725] 1905 hours). This must be composed of at least: · 47 semester credits (705 hours) in Oriental medical theory, diagnosis and treatment techniques in acupuncture and related studies, · 22 semester credits (660 hours) in clinical training, and · [24] 30 semester credits ([360] 450 hours) in biomedical clinical sciences. · 6 semester credits (90 hours) in counseling, communication, ethics and practice management. The minimum length of the professional Oriental medicine curriculum must be at least four academic years (a minimum of [123] 146 semester credits or [2175] 2625 hours). This must be composed of at least: · 47 semester credits (705 hours) in Oriental medical theory, diagnosis and treatment techniques in acupuncture and related studies, Structure, Scope, Process and Standards · 30 semester credits (450 hours) in didactic Oriental herbal studies, · [22] 29 semester credits ([660] 870 hours) in integrated acupuncture and herbal clinical training, · [24] 34 semester credits ([360] 510 hours) in biomedical clinical sciences. · 6 semester credits (90 hours) in counseling, communication, ethics and practice management. (b) Minimum/maximum time frame The professional acupuncture program must require a minimum of 90 instructional weeks to be completed in not less than 27 calendar months. The professional Oriental medicine program must require a minimum of 120 instructional weeks to be completed in not less than 36 calendar months. The program must set a maximum time frame to complete the program, which should be no more than 6 calendar years for the acupuncture program and no more than 8 years for the Oriental medicine program. © Clock to credit hour conversion One semester credit is granted: for each 15 hours of classroom contact plus appropriate outside preparation or the equivalent; for each 30 hours of supervised laboratory or clinical instruction plus appropriate outside preparation; and for each 45 hours of clinical externship or independent study. One quarter credit is granted: for each 10 hours of classroom contact plus appropriate outside preparation or the equivalent; for each 20 hours of supervised laboratory or clinical instruction plus appropriate outside preparation; and for 30 hours of clinical externship or independent study. Guideline: An academic year is defined as at least 30 instructional weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Marco - You ask a more complex question than you might imagine: China: an undergraduate degree leading to an MB/BS (medical baccalaureate/bachelor of Science) is five years of full time study. I don't have the exact hour breakdown right now, but it is about 3000 hours of class time (about 60% CM & 40% WM) and 1000 hours (probably more) of hospital based clinical study (This is conducted in the final year, 6 days a week). In the US: 1. There is no undergraduate degree. At the moment, the Master's degree which varies from 1700 - 3500 hours or so is the generally accepted entry level. This includes about 1000 hours of WM. Some states require that the training be a combined program of Acup and herbs (OM if you will). These programs are now averaging about 3000 hours completed in 3.5 - 4 years. Other states allow individuals to become licensed to practice only Acup. Therefore, programs that are " acupuncture only " programs have emerged. Some schools have simply taken the integrated OM program and " deleted " those classes specific to " herbs " . Others have designed curricula that integrate the two up to a certain level and then separate the acup students out and give them a different, acup focused curriculum. Other schools are specifically focused on Acup training from the start and have, over time " added on " training in herbal medicine. 2. In that past year a few of the Master level programs have been approved to begin Clinical Doctorate programs. These are not entry level, and they are not required for licensure in any state. They are for individuals wishing to pursue further studies and gain the degree. Designing a CM curriculum (whether Acup only or not) is a complex process. I suggest that you look at the ACAOM (Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine) guidelines/standards. I also suggest that if you are really interested you consider hiring a consultant (someone who has been doing this for a while and can help to guide you through many of the pitfalls). If you are interested in consultants please feel free to contact me off list. Marnae At 11:59 AM 11/23/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Hi list, > > >In an " ideal situation " what are the hours a undergraduate degree " ought " >to be? > >And what are the hours for a post graduate degree. > >Both in CM " TCM " and specifically acumoxa i.e. together and apart? > >What could be consider postgraduate training three years within a medical >division for example degree general internal medicine GP and then post >graduate orthopaedics gynaecology neurology etc. for three years.... > >And apart from that MA-MSc coursers Mphil and Ph.D. > >I am talking about a " ideal " situation... > >What do they do in the Chinese Vietnamese Korean Taiwanese Japanese >(presumably the Japanese is distinctively different?) > >I am not talking about this is right or wrong just in an " ideal " situation >have to put something down for MoH and unfortunately it is all being done >on a very cowboy manners but that is the way it is for the time being and >hence any suggestions welcome... > > >Marco > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 The " ideal situation " is for the " ideal student. " When we identify the latter, the ideal situation could be designed or " imagined " Fernando , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > Hi list, > > > In an " ideal situation " what are the hours a undergraduate degree " ought " to be? > > And what are the hours for a post graduate degree. > > Both in CM " TCM " and specifically acumoxa i.e. together and apart? > > What could be consider postgraduate training three years within a medical division for example degree general internal medicine GP and then post graduate orthopaedics gynaecology neurology etc. for three years.... > > And apart from that MA-MSc coursers Mphil and Ph.D. > > I am talking about a " ideal " situation... > > What do they do in the Chinese Vietnamese Korean Taiwanese Japanese (presumably the Japanese is distinctively different?) > > I am not talking about this is right or wrong just in an " ideal " situation have to put something down for MoH and unfortunately it is all being done on a very cowboy manners but that is the way it is for the time being and hence any suggestions welcome... > > > Marco > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Marnae, > Marco - > > You ask a more complex question than you might imagine: No, unfortunatly I might imagine it to be as relevant as terminolgy, research etc... > > China: an undergraduate degree leading to an MB/BS (medical > baccalaureate/bachelor of Science) is five years of full time study. I > don't have the exact hour breakdown right now, but it is about 3000 hours > of class time (about 60% CM & 40% WM) and 1000 hours (probably more) of > hospital based clinical study (This is conducted in the final year, 6 days > a week). When I at " A Safer choice " report from Australia the hours of a complet course seam to be more like 6000+ (not a direct qouate) > > In the US: > > 1. There is no undergraduate degree. At the moment, the Master's degree > which varies from 1700 - 3500 hours or so is the generally accepted entry > level. This includes about 1000 hours of WM. One would consider that maybe CM TEAM Acumoxa ought to be first undergraduate and then the MA Msc. Ph.D. (clinical teoretical etc...) i.e. and then post graduate.... that way not just the usal suspect are involved in the course but also advance teory specific practices etc... more antropology and sociology langugae etc... > > Some states require that the training be a combined program of Acup and > herbs (OM if you will). These programs are now averaging about 3000 hours > completed in 3.5 - 4 years. Other states allow individuals to become > licensed to practice only Acup. Therefore, programs that are " acupuncture > only " programs have emerged. Some schools have simply taken the integrated > OM program and " deleted " those classes specific to " herbs " . Others have > designed curricula that integrate the two up to a certain level and then > separate the acup students out and give them a different, acup focused > curriculum. Other schools are specifically focused on Acup training from > the start and have, over time " added on " training in herbal medicine. How does this compare to all the study that a western doctor need to do and or agian to what a chinese doctor in China Taiwan Korea and so forth need to do? If a comparative report could be done then maybe after words the " local " needs might be better cater for? And WHO could have a " new " basic standard qualifying the chinese medical practitioner + " local clinical and what nots needs " decided by memeber countries... > > 2. In that past year a few of the Master level programs have been approved > to begin Clinical Doctorate programs. These are not entry level, and they > are not required for licensure in any state. They are for individuals > wishing to pursue further studies and gain the degree. Say I for example I have studied some " stuff " in UK four year plus one year in a hospital needle exchange and drug rehablitation (and then a short while with sickle cell...) UK now have a BSc TCM course five years sound good and intresting, presumably this is a undergrad... Well would they and I for example learn something spefcificaly " new " in the Master levels program as defined in USA and the clinical doctrate programs? I which to do futher studies but unfortunatly am in a country where further formal studies are not yet avaliable... Next year i really need to ask the list and would love your input... but that is for next year January.... > > Designing a CM curriculum (whether Acup only or not) is a complex > process. I suggest that you look at the ACAOM (Accreditation Commission > for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine) guidelines/standards. I am actualy trtying to use the Gude lands set by British Columbia and Australia (no offence but from where I am they apear more advance in approach and team work in deciding these things then USA, also would like to consider Asian countries...) But of couarse will and was thinking of looking at the web site you mention.... >I also suggest that if you are really interested you consider hiring a consultant > (someone who has been doing this for a while and can help to guide you > through many of the pitfalls). Now Marnae, I am realy intrested needles to say I could not afford a consultation charge and one has to do what one can do. Volentray work is not just a good feel factor as somone navily mention earlier on but could also be do to percived needs and a drive for change.... >If you are interested in consultants please > feel free to contact me off list. I have found the two colleges you have been involved with and or associated with to be of the more towards the " ideal " (which Fernado, of couarse does not exist that is why I ma using " " ). And would not mind talking to you but... Marco Ps. Things here are an all round disaster and the political powers that are and probably may be have no co-ordination with CM. In Part becuse there are very few " real " practitioners of TEAM CM etc. here in Guatemala... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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