why not 5 phases

[Guest guest]

Anyone wants to comment on this we recently found on the web?

 

Holger Wendt

 

 

" I believe you should not use an acupuncturist who follows 5-element/5-phases theory. This is why:... "

 

http://immuneweb.org/articles/5element.html

[Guest guest]

I can agree with some of the author's ideas expressed in this

article, but I shall definitely not use her statement as an axiom.

In my practice I usually treat very acute cases, and I have been

doing that for more than 20 tears. I don't think that the 5-elements

approach is suitable for the treatment of either pain syndromes or

acute cases. Yet, I shall not disqualify the 5-elements approach

altogether, as I myself use it quite often, especially in very

stubborn and chronic cases, with surprisngly better results than the

Syndromes or other approaches which I tried beforehand. There is a

nice (at least I think so...) case history which I wrote some years

ago, that describes exactly this topic. The article can be found as

a featured article in the Journal of Chinese medicine web-page

(Tumors of the Vocal Cords), or in my web page at:

http://www.acumedico.com/vocal.htm

If you're interested you can read it there. I personally think that

Chinese medicine, unlike probably any other medical modality in the

whole world, has so many various and different clinical approaches

and possibilities, that it is really a shame if one clings to one of

them and neglects the rest. As much as in Taoism, a practitioner of

C.M. must learn and expand, gain as much knowledge and perfection as

possible - until he gets to the treatment itself. At this point he

must let go of all the accumulated knowledge and have the treatment

attitude and approach sprout by itself. This probably sounds a

little esoteric, and it is definitely apt to happen only after many

years of practice and learning, but this is the way a master

practitioner gets to be one.

 

Shmuel

http://www.acumedico.com

 

 

> Anyone wants to comment on this we recently found on the web?

>

> Holger Wendt

>

>

> " I believe you should not use an acupuncturist who follows

> 5-element/5-phases theory. This is why:... "

>

> http://immuneweb.org/articles/5element.html

[Guest guest]

Who is this woman who wrote the article??

 

Another upsetting article was on Acupuncture.com recently where they stated

auricular acupuncture is not effective for treating addiction!

anyone hwo has used this method knows first hand how powerful it is- even judges

sentance drug abusers to get auricular therapy!!!! I am including the article at

the end.

 

As to the woman who wrote the negative 5 element article, we all learned our own

individual ways of treating, whether it is 5 element, TCM, Japanese, Korean,

whatever, and through experience we know what works. We all have several tools

in our tool boxes and I am sure 5 element practitioners know what they are

doing- from the little i have seen and learned, it is a very powerful

acupuncture system, especially on an emotional and spiritual level. Is this

just mean competition? Bad mouth the 5 element practitioner so people will come

see me (the article author) the TCM practitioner??

 

-Meredith Bobroff, LicAc

http://www.philanet.com/acupuncture

 

 

Evidence Does Not Clearly Support Acupuncture for Addiction

 

Acupuncture, in the form of insertion of needles bilaterally in the outer ears,

is widely used for the treatment of addiction in the US. However, support for

this form of treatment from controlled studies has not been consistent. This

article examines recent clinical trials of acupuncture for addiction treatment,

with a goal of conveying to the reader some of the complex issues involved in

conducting studies in this area. Acupuncture trials in addictions frequently

have been conducted without preliminary dose-ranging studies to establish

efficacious doses of the experimental treatment, use needle insertion controls

of unknown degrees of activity, and present no rationale for the type or

intensity of concurrently offered psychotherapy. At the present time, it is

premature to put forth recommendations for or against acupuncture for the

treatment of addiction based on evidence from extant studies.

 

Margolin A. Acupuncture for substance abuse. Current psychiatry reports

5(5):333-9

[Guest guest]

I've just finished writing my dissertation on the use of auricular

acupuncture in the treatment of cocaine addiction. Out of the 6

RCTs, two were positive and four were negative in there conclusions

of acupuncture.

 

I've discussed that the alterted NADA protocol, where alot of

studies excluded the Kidney point from the treatment group is wrong.

also the selection of sham points located on the helix of the

auricle have a lot to be disired. Therefore, i'm not suprised the

studies concluded with a negative outcome, largely because the

methodology is also wrong.

 

Attilio

 

acupunctureworks@c... wrote:

> Who is this woman who wrote the article??

>

> Another upsetting article was on Acupuncture.com recently where

they stated auricular acupuncture is not effective for treating

addiction!

> anyone hwo has used this method knows first hand how powerful it

is- even judges sentance drug abusers to get auricular therapy!!!! I

am including the article at the end.

>

> As to the woman who wrote the negative 5 element article, we all

learned our own individual ways of treating, whether it is 5

element, TCM, Japanese, Korean, whatever, and through experience we

know what works. We all have several tools in our tool boxes and I

am sure 5 element practitioners know what they are doing- from the

little i have seen and learned, it is a very powerful acupuncture

system, especially on an emotional and spiritual level. Is this

just mean competition? Bad mouth the 5 element practitioner so

people will come see me (the article author) the TCM practitioner??

>

> -Meredith Bobroff, LicAc

> http://www.philanet.com/acupuncture

>

>

> Evidence Does Not Clearly Support Acupuncture for Addiction

>

> Acupuncture, in the form of insertion of needles bilaterally in

the outer ears, is widely used for the treatment of addiction in the

US. However, support for this form of treatment from controlled

studies has not been consistent. This article examines recent

clinical trials of acupuncture for addiction treatment, with a goal

of conveying to the reader some of the complex issues involved in

conducting studies in this area. Acupuncture trials in addictions

frequently have been conducted without preliminary dose-ranging

studies to establish efficacious doses of the experimental

treatment, use needle insertion controls of unknown degrees of

activity, and present no rationale for the type or intensity of

concurrently offered psychotherapy. At the present time, it is

premature to put forth recommendations for or against acupuncture

for the treatment of addiction based on evidence from extant studies.

>

> Margolin A. Acupuncture for substance abuse. Current psychiatry

reports 5(5):333-9

[Guest guest]

Scientists change their mind for irrational, non-scientific reasons

too. This is what Margolin said just three years ago. It looks like a

good study to me, I am sure Attilio is aware of it.

 

So what is pushing her in the other direction now? Look at her place

of work, job description, even her boss - maybe a change there will

give some clues. Sammy.

 

Arch Intern Med. 2000 Aug 14-28;160(15):2305-12. Related Articles,

Links

 

 

Comment in:

Arch Intern Med. 2001 Mar 26;161(6):894-5; author reply 895.

Arch Intern Med. 2001 Mar 26;161(6):894; author reply 895.

 

A randomized controlled trial of auricular acupuncture for cocaine

dependence.

 

Avants SK, Margolin A, Holford TR, Kosten TR.

 

Substance Abuse Center, Yale University School of Medicine, New

Haven, CT 06519, USA.

 

BACKGROUND: Partly because of a lack of a conventional, effective

treatment for cocaine addiction, auricular acupuncture is used to

treat this disorder in numerous drug treatment facilities across the

country for both primary cocaine-dependent and opiate-dependent

populations. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effectiveness of auricular

acupuncture for the treatment of cocaine addiction. METHODS: Eighty-

two cocaine-dependent, methadone-maintained patients were randomly

assigned to 1 of 3 conditions: auricular acupuncture, a needle-

insertion control condition, or a no-needle relaxation control.

Treatment sessions were provided 5 times weekly for 8 weeks. The

primary outcome was cocaine use assessed by 3-times-weekly urine

toxicology screens. RESULTS: Longitudinal analysis of the urine data

for the intent-to-treat sample showed that patients assigned to

acupuncture were significantly more likely to provide cocaine-

negative urine samples relative to both the relaxation control (odds

ratio, 3.41; 95% confidence interval, 1.33-8.72; P =. 01) and the

needle-insertion control (odds ratio, 2.40; 95% confidence interval,

1.00-5.75; P =.05). CONCLUSIONS: Findings from the current study

suggest that acupuncture shows promise for the treatment of cocaine

dependence. Further investigation of this treatment modality appears

to be warranted.

 

Publication Types:

Clinical Trial

Randomized Controlled Trial

 

PMID: 10927727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

acupunctureworks@c... wrote:

> Who is this woman who wrote the article??

>

> Another upsetting article was on Acupuncture.com recently where

they stated auricular acupuncture is not effective for treating

addiction!

> anyone hwo has used this method knows first hand how powerful it is-

even judges sentance drug abusers to get auricular therapy!!!! I am

including the article at the end.

>

> As to the woman who wrote the negative 5 element article, we all

learned our own individual ways of treating, whether it is 5 element,

TCM, Japanese, Korean, whatever, and through experience we know what

works. We all have several tools in our tool boxes and I am sure 5

element practitioners know what they are doing- from the little i

have seen and learned, it is a very powerful acupuncture system,

especially on an emotional and spiritual level. Is this just mean

competition? Bad mouth the 5 element practitioner so people will come

see me (the article author) the TCM practitioner??

>

> -Meredith Bobroff, LicAc

> http://www.philanet.com/acupuncture

>

>

> Evidence Does Not Clearly Support Acupuncture for Addiction

>

> Acupuncture, in the form of insertion of needles bilaterally in the

outer ears, is widely used for the treatment of addiction in the US.

However, support for this form of treatment from controlled studies

has not been consistent. This article examines recent clinical trials

of acupuncture for addiction treatment, with a goal of conveying to

the reader some of the complex issues involved in conducting studies

in this area. Acupuncture trials in addictions frequently have been

conducted without preliminary dose-ranging studies to establish

efficacious doses of the experimental treatment, use needle insertion

controls of unknown degrees of activity, and present no rationale for

the type or intensity of concurrently offered psychotherapy. At the

present time, it is premature to put forth recommendations for or

against acupuncture for the treatment of addiction based on evidence

from extant studies.

>

> Margolin A. Acupuncture for substance abuse. Current psychiatry

reports 5(5):333-9

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Holger Wendt

<holger.wendt@t...> wrote:

>

> Anyone wants to comment on this we recently found on the web?

>

> Holger Wendt

>

>

> " I believe you should not use an acupuncturist who follows

> 5-element/5-phases theory. This is why:... "

>

> http://immuneweb.org/articles/5element.html

 

She also trashes Japanese acupuncture but then says " but don't let my

prejudices get in the way... " Sounds like she found acupuncture

helpful and her " CM doctor " has some strong opinions which have

become hers now as well. She bases her 5E dicussion on " The Web " and

quotes as if it were Gospel (are you reading this, Ken?).

 

I think it's great she's found some relief, but one of the problems

with the WWW is that anybody with an opinion, a modem and some HTML

can become an instant " expert " .

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

When I worked in a small NADA clinic, across the hall they were running a

clinical trial

for ear acupuncture. We shook our heads, individual addicts came in their office

alone, got needles in the ear, did the paperwork and left with money in their

pockets.

Personally, I don't think there is magic in the 5 ear points but the set and

setting for

addiction acupunture along with the needles is a powerful combination for

recovery.

doug

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " sammy_bates "

<sammy_bates> wrote:

>

> Scientists change their mind for irrational, non-scientific reasons

> too. This is what Margolin said just three years ago. It looks like a

> good study to me, I am sure Attilio is aware of it.

>

> So what is pushing her in the other direction now? Look at her place

> of work, job description, even her boss - maybe a change there will

> give some clues. Sammy.

>

> Arch Intern Med. 2000 Aug 14-28;160(15):2305-12. Related Articles,

> Links

>

>

> Comment in:

> Arch Intern Med. 2001 Mar 26;161(6):894-5; author reply 895.

> Arch Intern Med. 2001 Mar 26;161(6):894; author reply 895.

>

> A randomized controlled trial of auricular acupuncture for cocaine

> dependence.

>

> Avants SK, Margolin A, Holford TR, Kosten TR.

>

> Substance Abuse Center, Yale University School of Medicine, New

> Haven, CT 06519, USA.

>

> BACKGROUND: Partly because of a lack of a conventional, effective

> treatment for cocaine addiction, auricular acupuncture is used to

> treat this disorder in numerous drug treatment facilities across the

> country for both primary cocaine-dependent and opiate-dependent

> populations. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effectiveness of auricular

> acupuncture for the treatment of cocaine addiction. METHODS: Eighty-

> two cocaine-dependent, methadone-maintained patients were randomly

> assigned to 1 of 3 conditions: auricular acupuncture, a needle-

> insertion control condition, or a no-needle relaxation control.

[Guest guest]

This 5 element versus TCM is becoming a tired old chesnut; everybody

knows that this is an artificial split among european acupuncturists

which started in the early sixties when Lavier started teaching in

france and in England; It always baffles the Chinese.

We now should now better and let the whole thing disappears.

There are only two kind of practitionners: the good ones and the one

who need to learn

 

Paying attention to this kind of old crap is giving it energy and

more.credibility; definitely more than it deserves

My 5 elements and TCM collegues and friends, I am sure, will agree

with me.

Regards,

 

PJ

On Wednesday, November 26, 2003, at 02:59 pm, kampo36 wrote:

 

> Chinese Medicine , Holger Wendt

> <holger.wendt@t...> wrote:

> >

> > Anyone wants to comment on this we recently found on the web?

> >

> > Holger Wendt

> >

> >

> > " I believe you should not use an acupuncturist who follows

> > 5-element/5-phases theory. This is why:... "

> >

> > http://immuneweb.org/articles/5element.html

>

> She also trashes Japanese acupuncture but then says " but don't let my

> prejudices get in the way... "   Sounds like she found acupuncture

> helpful and her " CM doctor " has some strong opinions which have

> become hers now as well.  She bases her 5E dicussion on " The Web " and

> quotes as if it were Gospel (are you reading this, Ken?).

>

> I think it's great she's found some relief, but one of the problems

> with the WWW is that anybody with an opinion, a modem and some HTML

> can become an instant " expert " .

>

> robert hayden

>

>

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>

>

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