Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Hi SacredQi, thanks for finding that. Yes, Bobbi, i've read about this placebo needle in another journal, Archives of Internal Medicine, 2001, 161, Mar 26. In this they state the introduction of the Park placebo needle in RCTs (Randomised Controlled Trials) meausuring the effectiveness of acupuncture in the treatment of cocaine addiction. They suggest the placebo needle will be better than the Streitberger needle for use on the auricle. I've spoken to Dr Streitberger about this and he agrees that his placebo needle can only really be used on the body and not the ear. However, as Avants, Margolin, Holford and Kosten state in their reply to Park on his needle, " we note that a needle that does not penetrate the skin could not properly control for 'needle insertion', but rather for a patient's preception that a needle had been inserted. By using a needle inserted into the helix of the auricle, Avants et al study was able to test differential effect of needle placement, i.e. the hypothesis that needles inserted into or near the concha would be more effective than needles inserted into the helix of the auricle. A sham insertion control would not allow for this " . What do you think about this? Attilio SacredQi888@a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/03 1:32:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > attiliodalberto writes: > > > Hi Bobbi, > > > > Have you got a link for that Acupuuncture Today article of sham > > acupuncture as i can't locate it. > > > > Attilio > > Not Acupuncture Today but an interesting article > > Validating a New Non-penetrating Sham Acupuncture Device: Two Randomised > Controlled Trials. Park, J., White, A., Stevinson, C., Ernst, E., and James, M.; > Acupunct Med 2002, Vol. 20(4) p.168-174 <A HREF= " http://www.medical-acupuncture.co.uk/journal/2002 (4)/168.shtml " >Abstract online</A> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi SacredQi, thanks for finding that. Yes, Bobbi, i've read about > this placebo needle in another journal, Archives of Internal > Medicine, 2001, 161, Mar 26. In this they state the introduction of > the Park placebo needle in RCTs (Randomised Controlled Trials) > meausuring the effectiveness of acupuncture in the treatment of > cocaine addiction. > Do you want purely to restrict yourself to a search for a placebo needle? I have real doubts about the ethics of so called placebos. If they are actually doing nothing they are denying the patient potentially helpful treatment. On the other hand if they are active they could do the patient real harm. When you think of a trial of a surgical procedure you would never consider a sham operation or drawing lines on the body. As an alternative approach within a double blind trial you could look at the work by Rosa N Schnyer. Her book Acupuncture in the Treatment of Depression has interesting methods of using differential diagnosis to compare effect. (i.e treat a minor syndrome ratehr than the root) On a more radical approach you could question the need for double blind in the first place. I think it was Steven Birch who put forward a powerful (to me) argument for double blind trials being inappropriate in Acupuncture. ARRC conference nov 2000. Hope this interests Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 <snip> > When you think of a trial of a surgical procedure you would never > consider a sham operation or drawing lines on the body. Well actually ... I ran a google and came up with several sites presenting this. " Study finds common knee surgery no better than placebo " <http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-07/bcom-sfc070802.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Hi Russ. I don't advocate the use of placebo needles at all. But as it stands, to get into mainstream healthcare we have to play by their rules and that means researching acup and herbs within the empirical RCT frame. This includes double blinded trials. I agree that it's unethical to use placebo trials, but until the RCT, gold standard method of testing changes we're stuck with it, so we better make the best of it. Yes, i read a few of Stephen Birch's articles. He also was in the team that conducted a randomised controlled trials (single blinded) to test the NADA protocol against a placebo control. It had quite a few errors in the treatment intervention, i.e. excluding the kidney point from treatment. Shocking. However, this may all be immaterial, as TCM is based upon syndrome differentiation and RCTs are based upon standardised treatments, so the two a real opposites, like Yin and Yang. We may never see the green light given to TCM via the use of empirical testing. TCM may become a parallel healthcare model without real quantitative proof of efficacy. Attilio " swacres_group " <swacres_group> wrote: > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > Hi SacredQi, thanks for finding that. Yes, Bobbi, i've read about > > this placebo needle in another journal, Archives of Internal > > Medicine, 2001, 161, Mar 26. In this they state the introduction of > > the Park placebo needle in RCTs (Randomised Controlled Trials) > > meausuring the effectiveness of acupuncture in the treatment of > > cocaine addiction. > > > > Do you want purely to restrict yourself to a search for a placebo > needle? > I have real doubts about the ethics of so called placebos. If they > are actually doing nothing they are denying the patient potentially > helpful treatment. On the other hand if they are active they could do > the patient real harm. > When you think of a trial of a surgical procedure you would never > consider a sham operation or drawing lines on the body. > > As an alternative approach within a double blind trial you could look > at the work by Rosa N Schnyer. Her book Acupuncture in the Treatment > of Depression has interesting methods of using differential diagnosis > to compare effect. (i.e treat a minor syndrome ratehr than the root) > > On a more radical approach you could question the need for double > blind in the first place. I think it was Steven Birch who put forward > a powerful (to me) argument for double blind trials being > inappropriate in Acupuncture. ARRC conference nov 2000. > > Hope this interests Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Well you got me there! I had to laugh Thanks Russ Chinese Medicine , " Penel Eynde LeGrand " <hyldemoer> wrote: > <snip> > > When you think of a trial of a surgical procedure you would never > > consider a sham operation or drawing lines on the body. > > Well actually ... > I ran a google and came up with several sites presenting this. > > " Study finds common knee surgery no better than placebo " > <http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-07/bcom-sfc070802.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 Penel, This example you quote does not contradict Russ' notion that the placebo may be 'doing something' :- Patients with osteoarthritis of the knee who underwent placebo arthroscopic surgery were just as likely to report pain relief as those who received the real procedure " In this case the surgical procedure may be releasing blockage along a meridian and preventing stagnation. What do you think ? Sammy. Chinese Medicine , " Penel Eynde LeGrand " <hyldemoer> wrote: > <snip> > > When you think of a trial of a surgical procedure you would never > > consider a sham operation or drawing lines on the body. > > Well actually ... > I ran a google and came up with several sites presenting this. > > " Study finds common knee surgery no better than placebo " > <http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-07/bcom-sfc070802.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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