pitting oedema in the legs in summer

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador

 

Thanks for your input. That all makes sense. In fact, at the time

of seeing this patient, I thought that there was a deficiency in the

Liver - the liver pulse was weak on the Yin level, she had very dry

skin, and blurred vision (which was worse first thing in the

morning). But supposing the diagnosis was simply Stagnation in the

Liver, please could you explain to me your use of points? Amongst

the Liver points I don't understand why you would use Liver 7 and

12; and I don't understand why you would focus on the Bladder rather

than Kidney, and why those particular bladder points? Please could

you enlighten me?!!

[Guest guest]

Claire Wrote

 

 

Thanks for your input. That all makes sense. In fact, at the time

of seeing this patient, I thought that there was a deficiency in the

Liver - the liver pulse was weak on the Yin level, she had very dry

skin, and blurred vision (which was worse first thing in the

morning). But supposing the diagnosis was simply Stagnation in the

Liver, please could you explain to me your use of points? Amongst

the Liver points I don't understand why you would use Liver 7 and

12; and I don't understand why you would focus on the Bladder rather

than Kidney, and why those particular bladder points? Please could

you enlighten me?!!

-------------------------------

Hi Claire,

 

I am pleased that you are interested in what I have to say and I am

disapointed that you haven't

 

challenged me on what on may seem like outrageous assertions.

for example : 1)I lay claims to knowing something of a person's energetic

make up via chinese

 

astrology. 2) I also claim that problems arise from Root disturbances and

that the Root is not

 

confined to a single meridian/ organ system. 3)That symptoms, acute and

chronic can be adequately resolved by treating Root systems.

 

I will just digress for a minute to give one possible answer to Michelle who

wrote:

----------------

>>When reading the case I didn't really understand the

statment/symptom " She likes hot weather, but doesn't feel the cold

easily. " can anyone please explain this to me.

Michele<<

----------------------

 

I would say Michelle that she likes hot weather because the patient is yang

deficient. However,

 

if this patient is also LIV-Qi stagnant what I would mean by this is that

the patient has an

 

over-rreving liVer with a fair amount of held in tension in the Lower

abdomen generating internal heat. Hence the conflict?

 

Ok Claire, To explain my use of points I need to also share that for myself

I no longer rely on

 

'Theory' to use points. Rather, once I have ascertained wether the Meridian

in question is Stag

 

/ Excess or Def. I pass my hand over each point on the relevant Meridian

and 'feel' wether the

 

point is stuck or flowing. This way of working has opened my understanding

to a great many

 

posibilities.

 

Since I don't expect you to treat your patients as I do I suggested points

that would be more

 

likely to effect the changes according to the symptoms allready enumerated.

LIV-7 has a

 

tremendous effect on the lower abdomen / hips. LIV-12 also for the lower

abdomen.

 

One of the lovely side effects of treating Root is that even if you treat

a point on the

 

relevant Merdian that is not oviously relevant you will still get an effect

ranging from neutral

 

to beneficial (on the assumption you don't work on the same point too

often).

 

Please bear in mind that there were probably more symptoms that either the

patient neglected to

 

share or that you didn't ask for. Since the posibilities were either LIV

and BL or KID.

 

my thinking was thus:

From the symptoms given the KID / BL was obviously Def. so the LIV had to be

Stag.

 

The lower back ache and urination comes from the BL. If the KID is not

moving the water out of

 

the blood leading to oedema then then need to urinate at night is more

likely to be from a weak

 

BL. IF the Bladder Meridian is weak then the Qi will not flow to the next

meridian ie. the KID

 

Meridian. The weakening of the SP from the LIV controlling cycle will have a

weaker knock on

 

effect on the KID given long enough. The KID as the mother of LIV is a bit

stuck with an

 

overactive child. I think the KID is a 'victim of circumstances' not part

of the Root' And yet

 

in my experience i often note that support 'not too much' is good for the

KID in such a

 

situation hence my suggesting of KID 7 and 3.

 

 

The points I suggested for the BL were for a number of reasons although I

did make a couple of mistakes I should have said BL-65 not BL-66. BL-1 is

the entry point and usually gets stuck, BL7, 8, have a tremendous effect

psychologically and are very grounding, The rest of the points were to have

an effect in bringing harmony to the lower/ back abdomen apart from BL-65

which is the Element within ie. Wood within Water and as such would have a

tremendous efect on the psyche of this patient. and lastly I should have

also added BL-67 both as the Exit and the Tonification point of the BL.

 

Salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

_______________

Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador

 

Thanks again for your prompt reply. Sorry I took so long to get

back to you. I have a couple more questions....

 

You say that the Kid/Bl are obviously deficient, so the Liver has to

be stagnant. I agree that the Kid/Bl are obviously deficient, but

why does that mean that the Liver is necessarily stagnant? Surely

if the Water element is deficient, it will fail to nourish its

Child, Wood, which in turn would become deficient?

 

Also, why do you say that Bl 65, as the Wood within Water point

would have a strong effect on the psyche. I presume you would not

be using this to sedate the Water element. Would you be reinforcing

this point to tonify the Fire within Water? Or what?! And how

would this effect the psyche?

 

I am interested in understanding your rationale.

 

Claire

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " salvador

march " <salvador_march@h...> wrote:

>

> Claire Wrote

>

>

> Thanks for your input. That all makes sense. In fact, at the time

> of seeing this patient, I thought that there was a deficiency in

the

> Liver - the liver pulse was weak on the Yin level, she had very dry

> skin, and blurred vision (which was worse first thing in the

> morning). But supposing the diagnosis was simply Stagnation in the

> Liver, please could you explain to me your use of points? Amongst

> the Liver points I don't understand why you would use Liver 7 and

> 12; and I don't understand why you would focus on the Bladder

rather

> than Kidney, and why those particular bladder points? Please could

> you enlighten me?!!

> -------------------------------

> Hi Claire,

>

> I am pleased that you are interested in what I have to say and I

am

> disapointed that you haven't

>

> challenged me on what on may seem like outrageous assertions.

> for example : 1)I lay claims to knowing something of a person's

energetic

> make up via chinese

>

> astrology. 2) I also claim that problems arise from Root

disturbances and

> that the Root is not

>

> confined to a single meridian/ organ system. 3)That symptoms,

acute and

> chronic can be adequately resolved by treating Root systems.

>

> I will just digress for a minute to give one possible answer to

Michelle who

> wrote:

> ----------------

> >>When reading the case I didn't really understand the

> statment/symptom " She likes hot weather, but doesn't feel the cold

> easily. " can anyone please explain this to me.

> Michele<<

> ----------------------

>

> I would say Michelle that she likes hot weather because the

patient is yang

> deficient. However,

>

> if this patient is also LIV-Qi stagnant what I would mean by this

is that

> the patient has an

>

> over-rreving liVer with a fair amount of held in tension in the

Lower

> abdomen generating internal heat. Hence the conflict?

>

> Ok Claire, To explain my use of points I need to also share that

for myself

> I no longer rely on

>

> 'Theory' to use points. Rather, once I have ascertained wether the

Meridian

> in question is Stag

>

> / Excess or Def. I pass my hand over each point on the relevant

Meridian

> and 'feel' wether the

>

> point is stuck or flowing. This way of working has opened my

understanding

> to a great many

>

> posibilities.

>

> Since I don't expect you to treat your patients as I do I

suggested points

> that would be more

>

> likely to effect the changes according to the symptoms allready

enumerated.

> LIV-7 has a

>

> tremendous effect on the lower abdomen / hips. LIV-12 also for the

lower

> abdomen.

>

> One of the lovely side effects of treating Root is that even if

you treat

> a point on the

>

> relevant Merdian that is not oviously relevant you will still get

an effect

> ranging from neutral

>

> to beneficial (on the assumption you don't work on the same point

too

> often).

>

> Please bear in mind that there were probably more symptoms that

either the

> patient neglected to

>

> share or that you didn't ask for. Since the posibilities were

either LIV

> and BL or KID.

>

> my thinking was thus:

> From the symptoms given the KID / BL was obviously Def. so the LIV

had to be

> Stag.

>

> The lower back ache and urination comes from the BL. If the KID

is not

> moving the water out of

>

> the blood leading to oedema then then need to urinate at night is

more

> likely to be from a weak

>

> BL. IF the Bladder Meridian is weak then the Qi will not flow to

the next

> meridian ie. the KID

>

> Meridian. The weakening of the SP from the LIV controlling cycle

will have a

> weaker knock on

>

> effect on the KID given long enough. The KID as the mother of LIV

is a bit

> stuck with an

>

> overactive child. I think the KID is a 'victim of circumstances'

not part

> of the Root' And yet

>

> in my experience i often note that support 'not too much' is good

for the

> KID in such a

>

> situation hence my suggesting of KID 7 and 3.

>

>

> The points I suggested for the BL were for a number of reasons

although I

> did make a couple of mistakes I should have said BL-65 not BL-

66. BL-1 is

> the entry point and usually gets stuck, BL7, 8, have a tremendous

effect

> psychologically and are very grounding, The rest of the points

were to have

> an effect in bringing harmony to the lower/ back abdomen apart

from BL-65

> which is the Element within ie. Wood within Water and as such

would have a

> tremendous efect on the psyche of this patient. and lastly I

should have

> also added BL-67 both as the Exit and the Tonification point of

the BL.

>

> Salvador

> www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>

> _______________

> Express yourself with cool new emoticons

http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

[Guest guest]

Claire wrote:

 

 

>Thanks again for your prompt reply. Sorry I took so long to get

>back to you. I have a couple more questions....

>

>You say that the Kid/Bl are obviously deficient, so the Liver has to

>be stagnant. I agree that the Kid/Bl are obviously deficient, but

>why does that mean that the Liver is necessarily stagnant? Surely

>if the Water element is deficient, it will fail to nourish its

>Child, Wood, which in turn would become deficient?

>

>Also, why do you say that Bl 65, as the Wood within Water point

>would have a strong effect on the psyche. I presume you would not

>be using this to sedate the Water element. Would you be reinforcing

>this point to tonify the Fire within Water? Or what?! And how

>would this effect the psyche?

>

>I am interested in understanding your rationale.

>

>Claire

_________>

 

Hi Claire,

 

My initial diagnosis of your given example was partly based on Chinese

astrology. Which, as someone else has pointed out, was initially, an

integral part of CM and which aparently, some of us in the west are now

re-integrating.

 

Through astrology I knew that the Root disturbances would manifest through

LIV and BL or LIV and KID. Through years of experimentation I have observed

to my satisfaction that invariably, the Root of disturbance in a person is

split between 2 meridians, One of which will be inherently def. and the

other inherently in Excess.

 

For example, one of my children 9 yrs. old. is inherently Def. in LIV and

subject to stagnation in ST. however, when I have had to intevene to help

him it is sufficient for me to deal with the Stag., ST. Probably when he is

much older and subject to greater stress in his world the Def. LIV will

become more pronounced at times in his life.

 

I have another child who is 12 and his pattern is Def. SI and Stag. SP in

past interventions his Def. SI was much more pronounced.

 

I am aware that my statements are contrary to accepted wisdom but I get the

results.

 

 

Your statement >>if the Water element is deficient, it will fail to nourish

its

Child, Wood, which in turn would become deficient<< I believe to be

accurate.

 

However, to lump people into Elements is too much of a generalization and a

mistake often made by 5 Element practitioners. To be effective we need to be

even more specific.

In your example I suggested that the BL (mother)was the Deficient Meridian.

in which case it would be the GB meridian (child) that would be distressed.

 

But lets assume that my diaganosis was innacurate and that the KID is the

Defient Meridian. Yes, It would have a weakening effect on the LIV. In this

instance Were you to probe the patient you would discover conflicting

symptoms in the LIV of Def and Excess.

 

What does this really mean?

 

we are continually absorving and releasing energy through Acupuncture points

they 'breathe'.

When I feel acu. pts., on a Meridian for excess I have noted that the energy

of the point in question will be 'stuck' shut.

 

On a Def Meridian they are 'stuck' open. (There are loads of implications

here! Ask to know more)

 

So we have different energy interactions, There is the Flow of energy

through the Generating Cycle as well as through Meridian Pathways but then

we need to look at what the individual Meridian is doing with the energy

flowing though it.

 

(what I have just described is a useful concept. but not the whole story as

there is also myofascial structural distortion through the lengh of the

Meridian which can also get stuck in a compressed form or its opposite.)

sorry to complicate matters

 

 

 

My suggesting BL-65 (wood) is taken from the 5 Element system which was the

1st System I learnt. This system suggests that there are 3 depths to a

human being in terms of Elemental qualities. The 2 inner layers are called

Elements within. In your example, though my astrological appraisal and

observation of given symptoms I have judged, that the the Elements within

are both Wood and in this instance strenthened? balanced? by Ton. BL-65.

 

Another way to look at elements within is..... Ok i'll stop now don't want

to rant on and on ask me if you are interested.

 

 

Salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

_______________

Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you.

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[Guest guest]

When I feel acu. pts., on a Meridian for excess I have noted that the

energy

of the point in question will be 'stuck' shut.

 

On a Def Meridian they are 'stuck' open. (There are loads of implications

here! Ask to know more)

--Salvador

 

 

OK, I am asking. What more would you care to say about this?

 

Pat

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

In order to tone or supplement Metal [LU and LI], does one " reduce " the

points,

because Metal needs to be shined and rus removed? Or doe one tone them as

with other elements?

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

professionals

[Guest guest]

Dr. Holmes wrote:

 

>In order to tone or supplement Metal [LU and LI], does one " reduce " the

>points,

>because Metal needs to be shined and rus removed? Or doe one tone them as

>with other elements?

>

>Dr. Holmes Keikobad

>MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

>www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

>professionals

-----------------

 

HI Dr. Holmes.

 

Nice to converse with you I have often read your contributions with

apreciation.

 

With regards to your question I am non plussed. I am sorry but I don't

understand. Could you be more specific? perhaps relate your question to a

patient you may have dealt with at some point? if so, DOB please.

 

Many thanks

salvador

 

_______________

Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you.

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[Guest guest]

Metal LU is deficient and LI in excess.

 

In terms of needle technique does one do rapid movements to deal with the

deficiency? I heard somewhere that one does not tone Metal, even when

deficient.

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

professionals

-

" salvador march " <salvador_march

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, January 28, 2004 2:09 PM

Re: pitting oedema in the legs in summer

 

 

 

Dr. Holmes wrote:

 

>In order to tone or supplement Metal [LU and LI], does one " reduce " the

>points,

>because Metal needs to be shined and rus removed? Or doe one tone them as

>with other elements?

>

>Dr. Holmes Keikobad

>MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

>www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

>professionals

-----------------

 

HI Dr. Holmes.

 

Nice to converse with you I have often read your contributions with

apreciation.

 

With regards to your question I am non plussed. I am sorry but I don't

understand. Could you be more specific? perhaps relate your question to a

patient you may have dealt with at some point? if so, DOB please.

 

Many thanks

salvador

 

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[Guest guest]

Pat wrote:

 

When I feel acu. pts., on a Meridian for excess I have noted that the

energy

of the point in question will be 'stuck' shut.

 

On a Def Meridian they are 'stuck' open. (There are loads of implications

here! Ask to know more)

--Salvador

 

 

OK, I am asking. What more would you care to say about this?

 

Pat

--\

---------------

 

HI Pat,

thanks for helping me to work towards been clear in myself

 

Let me say That I am not an 'academic' and that I have never managed to get

past the first few

 

pages of any of the known Chinese Classics. this is not to belittle

'academics' but rather to

 

apologise for my simplistic aproach which is purely 'hands on'.

 

When I Treat a patient I firstly do my utmost to be clear which meridian if

any is in excess and

 

which is Def. This clarity is acompanied by understanding how the patient is

'stuck' in an emotional groove and patterns of perception. And how from this

core all symptoms emmanate. Barring External injuries, etc.,

 

The above stuckness can be further broken down to individual points along a

given meridian. and they will manifest either as physical,emotional and or

mental disturbances.

 

Through hands on experimentation both on patients and on myself both with

needles and

 

energetically (ie. using intention / Will and feeling) I have verified That

when we move energy

 

anticlockwise we create a relaxation effect / a structural release through

the meridian that we

 

are working on. With a needle with are doing the same by turning it

anticlockwise.

However, this is only so, if that particular Meridian or myofascial

structure (bunch of muscles

 

ligaments tendons and fascia) are in a contracted state. If it is not, then

we will exarcebate

 

the tension.

 

as an aside, It is my beleif /experience That the contraction along any

myofacial structure (

 

Meridian) has a knock on effect on the related organ, hormonal gland and

spinal section.

 

I am sure you have a good grasp of this but I need to be clear as to the

groundwork for what is

 

to follow.

 

the same will apply in reverse. What I term a Def. is, I believe, an over

relaxation? Extension? of the Meridian / myofascial structure. And wether

energetically or with needles we create a clockwise movement. Again, if

the Meridian is already contracted we will complicate matters.

There is more to this but i'll move on.

 

In TCM we choose points according to patterns and by 'theory' If we are

clear That someone has

 

Damp we will use SP-9 more than likely. In a sense I believe that the theory

was initially

 

placed there to help us move beyond it! Not to rely on it as Gospel.

 

I have many times treated patients extremey succesfully for Damp symptoms

(whole body feels heavy prior to session and very light after TX) without

going near SP-9 or SP

 

-6 How? Because by feeling the Meridian I have noted that the points that

were blocked were

 

somewhere else along the SP Meridian. I have had tremendous results with

ezcema by exclusively sedating the LIV, psoriasis by Ton. the ST and will

add just one more, Back pain. Just about all my notes on back pain From my

past T.C.M training are related to the BL- Meridian. Yet I have helped

people to be released from acute back pain very fast by treating one of the

following SP,ST, LIV, GB, SI and LI.

 

So, If individual meridians as well as points along a specific meridian can

make a person better or worse depending on its apropriatedness. Then, to

rely on Formulas, where by one treats points from a variety of meridians is,

in my view very haphazard. Because some of the points will be helpful and

some will not.

 

I suppose that the formulas were created to aid students, to predict which

points would more than likely be stuck in either the open or closed position

for a given set of symptoms. But the bottom line is that we are all

individuals and would truly benfit from been assesed as such.

 

Salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

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[Guest guest]

Dr. K Wrote:

 

>Metal LU is deficient and LI in excess.

>

>In terms of needle technique does one do rapid movements to deal with the

>deficiency? I heard somewhere that one does not tone Metal, even when

>deficient.

>Dr. Holmes Keikobad

>MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

>www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

>professionals

 

---------------------------

 

Hi Dr. K.

 

I am flattered that you should ask me such a question but I am not an

'expert' all I can share with you is my experience in the field.

 

My experience is that there are precious few rules if any. On a practical

point most people That I have treated on the LU meridian I have had to

Sedate. However, whilst LU and LI are both part of the Metal element they

are totally separate meridians when it comes to Tx.

 

I regularly have patients whose pattern of disharmony is Excess LU and Def.

LI. My aproach is to place needles in anticlockwise for sedation anywhere

from 5 to 20 minutes or so depending on patient's response. And when I

tonify I go into the point turn clockwise and remove almost straigh away.

Works for me of course one has to to hit the point.

 

However. I will share something else. They say in the books that one should

not sedate the KID because it is the source of Jing. But I have had great

results with people whom I have diganosed as excess in the KID meridian.

 

Salvador

 

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[Guest guest]

>

> salvador march [salvador_march]

 

<snip>

 

> Hi Dr. K.

 

<snip>

 

>

> However. I will share something else. They say in the books that

> one should

> not sedate the KID because it is the source of Jing. But I have

> had great

> results with people whom I have diganosed as excess in the KID meridian.

 

I've always been taught that there can never be an excess in the Kidney

meridian, eg if yang is in " excess " then it is really the ying which id

deficient. How do you recognise excess in the Ki meridian?

 

:\

fred

[Guest guest]

Fred Wrote:

> >

> > However. I will share something else. They say in the books that

> > one should

> > not sedate the KID because it is the source of Jing. But I have

> > had great

> > results with people whom I have diganosed as excess in the KID

>meridian.

>

>I've always been taught that there can never be an excess in the Kidney

>meridian, eg if yang is in " excess " then it is really the ying which id

>deficient. How do you recognise excess in the Ki meridian?

>

>:\

>fred

>

_______

 

Hi Fred:

 

The short and Quick answer is that I Touch the Meridian, Send energy into it

in a specific way or take energy out again in a specific way, then I take

note of specific physiological processes. I will do this with a few chosen

Meridians. These, I will have selected because of C Astrology. I will

compare them and my results with given and prodded for symptoms. I will set

out this symptoms in to the patterns of the generating and controlloing

cycles of the 5 Elements to make sure they make sense. I will take pulses

but not take them too seriously at his stage. I will compare with Excess or

cut off feelings way of being that this person will display, mannerism. how

they look out to the world through their eyes etc.,

 

When I am satisfied I will place a needle into a chosen point and I will

compare physiological changes of before and after as well as changes within

the patient's feeling state. ie. calmess v agitation, groundness versus

physical dissasociation etc.,

 

assuming that out of all this I am satisfied that the KID Meridian (points)

are in excess (in a state of contraction / stuck shut). what will I have

noted? There will be fear in the eyes, but you have to watch out because

the Excess BL will also show this fear in the eyes. There will be an

emotional cut offness. But you have to watch out because you can get cut

offness from LU also.

 

I suppose the difficulty I have with answering you is that I cannot say look

at this patient he/she has this symptoms and that makes him to have

categorically excess KID energy. because if there is one thing that CM shows

us is That nothing exists in isolation not even the KID, relationships are

everything in understanding the individual.

 

For example this patient might theoretically also have a Def. LI in which

case they may exibit weak bladder symptoms like dull lower back ache etc.,

if their stresses have gone on for a long time Their SI could be agitated,

possibly generating an adrenalin like nervousness, they could get hot and

sweaty in the early part of the night. ( I am making this up but it is

possible I suppose).

 

 

My one categorical answer would be That I touch the meridian remove energy

from it / release the tension in the myofacial structure related to the KID

Meridian and I then get specific reponses from the patient that confirm /

deny my actions.

 

 

Sorry if none of the above leave you any the wiser. Indulge me for a moment

longer and i'll try a diferent approach.

 

If all the Meridians of the body are aligned to Fascia/muscle/ligament

tendon structures. And If our held in emotions have the power to distort any

given Meridian structure with the accompaying effect on the related organs /

gland systems. Then surely the holding in of fear will affect the KID

meridian no different form holding in anger would have on the LIV Meridian.

 

gratefully

salvador (wood Horse)

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

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[Guest guest]

I find this fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

professionals

-

" salvador march " <salvador_march

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, January 28, 2004 5:19 PM

Re: pitting oedema in the legs in summer

 

 

Dr. K Wrote:

 

>Metal LU is deficient and LI in excess.

>

>In terms of needle technique does one do rapid movements to deal with the

>deficiency? I heard somewhere that one does not tone Metal, even when

>deficient.

>Dr. Holmes Keikobad

>MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

>www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

>professionals

[Guest guest]

So, If individual meridians as well as points along a specific meridian

can

make a person better or worse depending on its apropriatedness. Then, to

rely on Formulas, where by one treats points from a variety of meridians

is,

in my view very haphazard. Because some of the points will be helpful and

some will not.

 

I suppose that the formulas were created to aid students, to predict which

points would more than likely be stuck in either the open or closed

position

for a given set of symptoms. But the bottom line is that we are all

individuals and would truly benfit from been assesed as such.

-Salvador

 

Thank you for the further elaboration. I would assume that the " formulas "

were developed based on theory, too, for instance, Qi stagnation leads to

Blood stagnation, etc. which has certain predictable effects on predictable

meridian/organ systems in the cyclical progression, and therefore, certain

points are likely to be useful. While this is useful, it is also very

important, as you say, to tailor a treatment to what the individual is

actually presenting.

 

Pat

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador

 

Please can you elaborate on " elements within " ?

 

Claire

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " salvador

march " <salvador_march@h...> wrote:

> Claire wrote:

>

>

> >Thanks again for your prompt reply. Sorry I took so long to get

> >back to you. I have a couple more questions....

> >

> >You say that the Kid/Bl are obviously deficient, so the Liver has

to

> >be stagnant. I agree that the Kid/Bl are obviously deficient, but

> >why does that mean that the Liver is necessarily stagnant? Surely

> >if the Water element is deficient, it will fail to nourish its

> >Child, Wood, which in turn would become deficient?

> >

> >Also, why do you say that Bl 65, as the Wood within Water point

> >would have a strong effect on the psyche. I presume you would not

> >be using this to sedate the Water element. Would you be

reinforcing

> >this point to tonify the Fire within Water? Or what?! And how

> >would this effect the psyche?

> >

> >I am interested in understanding your rationale.

> >

> >Claire

> _________>

>

> Hi Claire,

>

> My initial diagnosis of your given example was partly based on

Chinese

> astrology. Which, as someone else has pointed out, was initially,

an

> integral part of CM and which aparently, some of us in the west

are now

> re-integrating.

>

> Through astrology I knew that the Root disturbances would manifest

through

> LIV and BL or LIV and KID. Through years of experimentation I

have observed

> to my satisfaction that invariably, the Root of disturbance in a

person is

> split between 2 meridians, One of which will be inherently def.

and the

> other inherently in Excess.

>

> For example, one of my children 9 yrs. old. is inherently Def. in

LIV and

> subject to stagnation in ST. however, when I have had to intevene

to help

> him it is sufficient for me to deal with the Stag., ST. Probably

when he is

> much older and subject to greater stress in his world the Def. LIV

will

> become more pronounced at times in his life.

>

> I have another child who is 12 and his pattern is Def. SI and

Stag. SP in

> past interventions his Def. SI was much more pronounced.

>

> I am aware that my statements are contrary to accepted wisdom but

I get the

> results.

>

>

> Your statement >>if the Water element is deficient, it will fail

to nourish

> its

> Child, Wood, which in turn would become deficient<< I believe to

be

> accurate.

>

> However, to lump people into Elements is too much of a

generalization and a

> mistake often made by 5 Element practitioners. To be effective we

need to be

> even more specific.

> In your example I suggested that the BL (mother)was the Deficient

Meridian.

> in which case it would be the GB meridian (child) that would be

distressed.

>

> But lets assume that my diaganosis was innacurate and that the KID

is the

> Defient Meridian. Yes, It would have a weakening effect on the

LIV. In this

> instance Were you to probe the patient you would discover

conflicting

> symptoms in the LIV of Def and Excess.

>

> What does this really mean?

>

> we are continually absorving and releasing energy through

Acupuncture points

> they 'breathe'.

> When I feel acu. pts., on a Meridian for excess I have noted that

the energy

> of the point in question will be 'stuck' shut.

>

> On a Def Meridian they are 'stuck' open. (There are loads of

implications

> here! Ask to know more)

>

> So we have different energy interactions, There is the Flow of

energy

> through the Generating Cycle as well as through Meridian Pathways

but then

> we need to look at what the individual Meridian is doing with the

energy

> flowing though it.

>

> (what I have just described is a useful concept. but not the whole

story as

> there is also myofascial structural distortion through the lengh

of the

> Meridian which can also get stuck in a compressed form or its

opposite.)

> sorry to complicate matters

>

>

>

> My suggesting BL-65 (wood) is taken from the 5 Element system

which was the

> 1st System I learnt. This system suggests that there are 3 depths

to a

> human being in terms of Elemental qualities. The 2 inner layers

are called

> Elements within. In your example, though my astrological appraisal

and

> observation of given symptoms I have judged, that the the Elements

within

> are both Wood and in this instance strenthened? balanced? by Ton.

BL-65.

>

> Another way to look at elements within is..... Ok i'll stop now

don't want

> to rant on and on ask me if you are interested.

>

>

> Salvador

> www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>

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