Guest guest Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Does anyone have experience of the following? I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on palpation. 2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a couple of days and then the pain returns. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Hi Can you supply a date of birth for this patient? >Does anyone have experience of the following? >I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided >Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. >When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. >She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on >palpation. > >2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was >misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It >was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the >kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now >events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. > >The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She >has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on >the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. >Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. >She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but >reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a >couple of days and then the pain returns. >Any suggestions? > > _______________ Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Martin, Martin Dean wrote: > I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided > KI pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. > When bad, it refers round from the back to the KI alarm point GB25. GB25 is also the Alarm Point for the ovary! > She lives on pain killers. Her right SJL is very tender on > palpation. 2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. > This was misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty > of water. It was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the > ureter, but the KI was so badly damaged by this time it had to be > removed. Are you sure that the surgeon was correct? Did she have a specialist gynaecological examination at the time? > So now events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. > She gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a KI type. She has > been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on > the left side, and empty on the right. The BL/KI pulse is also > deep. Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is > wet. She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the > handle, but reinforcing KI03 increases the pain! KI03 is the Earth Point. In theory, reinforcing the Earth Point of Water could further weaken a KI Xu. > The relief from treatment lasts a couple of days and then the pain > returns. Any suggestions? 1. Get expert gynaecological examinatiion, including ultrasound scan of the ovaries, KI and BL ASAP. If an ovarian cyst is found, I would suggest the Four Gates (LI04 + LV04) plus (alternating between sessions): (a) SP06, BL23, BL28, CV06; (b) KI07, GB25, BL26 and CV03 2. If KI/BL lesions are confirmed, the above formula can be the base, with 1-2 other points added for KI/BL, as needed. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Martin, The symptoms noted suggest a kidney stone, which is probably the 'obstruction' she formerly had. Referral of pain is often as you describe. Coincidentally, oh moan, i had such a thing last week. Diagnosis is made via CT scan. 10% of people have a stone before reaching age 70. (Another souce said 10% of men and 5% of women.) People have told me it can be excruciating as it passes thru the ureter, though mine was just darn painful - probably a factor of size; mine was 'only' 3mm. Patients with stones 4mm or less are usually sent home with pain killers(vicodin) with the expectation that it will pass on it's own. Large stones are considered to require surgical intervention or lithotrypsy(the relatively new technique of using sound waves to break up stones that are too large to pass). Straining urine to catch the stone is significant, as it can be sent to lab for ID of the type, ie. uric acid or oxalic acid. This allows for adjustment in diet accordingly. B6 and magnesium for oxalic acid ones, for example. Drinking lots of water is key; dehydration is considered one of the causative agents. Condition tends to run in family. I think diagnosis is key here and feel this requires a referral out for said tests. A stone too large to pass is a serious matter. There are said to be some herbal formulas that MAY be able to diminish the size or relax the colicky pain to ease passage, but i am uncertain as to how much one can reasonably expect from these, though i have suggested them to a few people in the past and they have reported that they felt they helped. There are some Chinese patents(Passwan, for example) which contain Lysimachia and other herbs) and Subhuti Dharmananda has a formula at ITM which contains Lysimachia, Lygodium spores and gallus, called Lysimachia 3. He states on page 137 of his book Bag of Pearls, that Lysimachia is reputed to have stone-resolving effect; " Lygodium spore is a slippery material which, like talc...is thought to make stones and gravel also slippery(preventing material from binding onto its surface, thus slipping out more easily). " Gallus is used as digestive aid and to resolve masses. He suggests making the formula more specific by adding a 2nd formula, such as one with diuretic herbs. However, his final comment on his description of the formula states, " Lysimachia 3 and other Chinese herbal therapies for stones are best applied to stones that have not calcified; cholesterol-based stones(as found in the gall bladder) are particularly susceptible to the action of these herbs. " Mine has still not passed, to my knowledge, though i have not had pain for 3 days. So I am still wondering if it is just hung up somewhere or if the herbs i have been taking have indeed reduced the consarned thing. Stones can apparently take anywhere from a day to 2 weeks to pass. But who really knows? But this has brought up several questions to me, which i address to the group. First, has anyone observed treatment of stones with ? (or other herbs or natural methods?) 2nd, does anyone have any idea how much time is required to form a small stone? 3rd, i can't help wondering now, especially having had this, how much LBP might actually be caused by undiagnosed small stones or what is called " gravel " (or even " sand " ). 4th, might all this coooollllld weather have anything to do with it? Any ideas on this, Alon? Anyway, Martin, I can't help thinking your patient needs a more thorough medical workup, including a scan. If she has a stone, it shouldn't be kept a secret. Ann " Martin Dean " <martin Does anyone have experience of the following? I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on palpation. 2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a couple of days and then the pain returns. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 I thought the formation of stones in the kidney and gallbladder was due to the accumulation of substantial phlegm. Has anyone else heard of this? Attilio <snakeoil.works@m...> wrote: > Martin, > Straining urine to catch the stone is significant, as it can be sent to lab > for ID of the type, ie. uric acid or oxalic acid. This allows for adjustment > in diet accordingly. B6 and magnesium for oxalic acid ones, for example. > Drinking lots of water is key; dehydration is considered one of the > causative agents. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hi All & Hi Ann, Ann wrote: > There are some Chinese patents (Passwan, for example) which > contain Lysimachia and other herbs) and Subhuti Dharmananda has a > formula at ITM which contains Lysimachia, Lygodium spores and > gallus, called Lysimachia 3. He states on page 137 of his book Bag > of Pearls, that Lysimachia is reputed to have stone-resolving > effect; " Lygodium spore is a slippery material which, like talc, is > thought to make stones and gravel also slippery (preventing > material from binding onto its surface, thus slipping out more > easily). " Gallus is used as digestive aid and to resolve masses. He > suggests making the formula more specific by adding a 2nd formula, > such as one with diuretic herbs. However, his final comment on his > description of the formula states, " Lysimachia 3 and other Chinese > herbal therapies for stones are best applied to stones that have > not calcified; cholesterol-based stones (as found in GB) are > particularly susceptible to the action of these herbs. " > (1) has anyone observed treatment of stones with CM? (or other > herbs or natural methods?) I have not treated KI stones in people but these Western herbs are listed as litholytic: Arctostaphylos Uva-Ursi, Cx-Rx Chionanthi Virginicae, Fm Betulae Albae, Fm Peumi Boldo, Fr Berberidis Vulgaris, Hb Aphanis Arvensis, Hb Chelone Glabrae, Hb Chelidonii Majoris, Hb+Fl Parietaria Diffusae, Hb+Rx Rusci Aculeate, Inner Cx-Rx Sassafras Albidi, Rx Armoraciae Rusticanae Recens, Rx Collinsoniae Canadensis, Rx Eupatorii Purpurei, Rz Hydrangeae Arborescentis, TCM herbs listed as litholytic include: Bianxu, Chenpi, Cheqianzi, Dahuang, Dongkuizi, Ercha, Ezhu, Guangjinqiancao, Guanmutong [bANNED], Haifushi, Haijinsha, Huainiuxi, Huashi, Hulofu, Hupo [bANNED], Huzhang, Jianghuang, Jineijin, Jinqiancao, Lunhuanteng, Muxiang, Oumaogen, Pugongying, Qumai, Shiwei, Xiangfu, Xianrenzhang, Yinchenhao, Yiyiren, Yueju, Yujin, Yumixu, Zexie, Zhuling Ayurvedic: Asphaltum (Shilajit) In urinary calculi, it is usual to some of Litholytic Hbs that act on KI + add add Diuretic Hbs. In GB calculi, one would select some Litholytic Hbs that act on GB, and add 1-2 other Hbs that Tonify GB. However, I do not know first-hand how effective (or otherwise) those Hbs are. As mentioned (by Alon?) drinking LOTS of water (or beer) helps to keep calculi at bay. Also Barley Water (a useful diuretic) helps. > (4) might all this cold weather have anything to do with it? Ann IMO, yes, if humans react like sheep! Urinary calculi in sheep occurs mainly in winter. In concentrate-fed sheep, the incidence of calculi soars within a week of the onset of subzero temperatures. COLD affects KI, but cold also reduces voluntary water intake by animals, thereby increasing the concentration of minerals & other ingredients in their urine. The higher the concentration of solutes in urine, the more likely for crystallisation to occur. Addition of 1% salt to the diet increases drinking and urine production, and helps to dilute the urine. Also, magnesium phosphate crystals (the most common form of calculi in sheep) form more easily in an ALKALINE urine. Manipulation of the diet to ACIDIFY the urine (for example by addition of 1% ammonium chloride to the diet) helps greatly. However, feeding acidifying diets over a prolonged time is not advisable; it may cause demineralisation of bone. Prevention of Mg phosphate calculi in sheep is based on: (a) keeping Mg and P low in the diet; © ensuring that Ca intake is at least TWICE as high as P intake (to reduce P absorption); © ensuring optimal intake of water (if necessary by using a heating element to raise water temperature to 10 DegC and by adding salt to the diet); (d) provision of some roughage (all-concentrate diets are more calculus-prone that diets with some fibre from hay or straw); (e) [in the middle of an outbreak] by adding 1% ammonium chloride to the diet for a few weeks. " Martin Dean " <martin Does anyone have experience of the following? I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on palpation. 2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a couple of days and then the pain returns. Any suggestions? Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hi Phil, Thanks for the list of lithotropes...the next step is to find a source for specific efficacy of each...a tall order. ;-) >>Ayurvedic: Asphaltum (Shilajit) so i should boil up the street???? NOt going there. >>As mentioned (by Alon?) drinking LOTS of water (or beer) helps to keep calculi at bay. Also Barley Water (a useful diuretic) helps. BEER?? Seems like i heard that before(not sure where) -- simply cuz it's diuretic?? >>> (4) might all this cold weather have anything to do with it? Ann >>IMO, yes, if humans react like sheep! Urinary calculi in sheep occurs mainly in winter. In concentrate-fed sheep, the incidence of calculi soars within a week of the onset of subzero temperatures. COLD affects KI, but cold also reduces voluntary water intake by animals, thereby increasing the concentration of minerals & other ingredients in their urine. > a very cogent explanation, but it seems the stones in humans are not magnesium crystals, but calcium oxalate(or uric acid). This probably has to do with the respective diets, no doubt. But the recommendation to temporarily acidify is mirrored in natural medicine books suggesting remedies such as vinegar water, cranberry juice, Vit. C, etc. Ann The higher the concentration of solutes in urine, the more likely for crystallisation to occur. Addition of 1% salt to the diet increases drinking and urine production, and helps to dilute the urine. Also, magnesium phosphate crystals (the most common form of calculi in sheep) form more easily in an ALKALINE urine. Manipulation of the diet to ACIDIFY the urine (for example by addition of 1% ammonium chloride to the diet) helps greatly. However, feeding acidifying diets over a prolonged time is not advisable; it may cause demineralisation of bone. Prevention of Mg phosphate calculi in sheep is based on: (a) keeping Mg and P low in the diet; © ensuring that Ca intake is at least TWICE as high as P intake (to reduce P absorption); © ensuring optimal intake of water (if necessary by using a heating element to raise water temperature to 10 DegC and by adding salt to the diet); (d) provision of some roughage (all-concentrate diets are more calculus-prone that diets with some fibre from hay or straw); (e) [in the middle of an outbreak] by adding 1% ammonium chloride to the diet for a few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Heat is also often a factor in k. stone development, either excess or k. yin def. heat. Heat also factor in either uric or oxalic. The phlegm may be invisible type, manifesting in pulse and tongue more than in body observation or dampness type complaints. But vis or invisible needs treatment too. Many people do not realize that soy and soy products are very high in oxalics, more than spinach or peanuts often. <attiliodalberto wrote: I thought the formation of stones in the kidney and gallbladder was due to the accumulation of substantial phlegm. Has anyone else heard of this? Attilio <snakeoil.works@m...> wrote: > Martin, > Straining urine to catch the stone is significant, as it can be sent to lab > for ID of the type, ie. uric acid or oxalic acid. This allows for adjustment > in diet accordingly. B6 and magnesium for oxalic acid ones, for example. > Drinking lots of water is key; dehydration is considered one of the > causative agents. > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Separate issue. Sorry! I am going on holidays from 31/1/03/ to 20/2/04. I won' tbe able to access my email during this period. Is there any way that you can suspend my membership during that period so that my email address won't be clogged up. Thank you Mr KN Lay MBAcC MRCHM MBA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I had very surprising good results with qi kung technique of passes of qi in spread out way to pelvis kid area, and imaging the structures loosening, cooling etc. Tough to speak about, but many people know. The patient even remarked that she could feel the qi moving deep in specific places as it was seen and met, and that was the end of it. But repeatability and teachability are hard. so... A 2 to 5Hz electro acupuncture stimulation at a tolerable level, with electrodes bilaterally at @UB23 and GB25 or 26 or nearby tender area, for 10 min to 20 minutes, adjusting frequency and amplitude if needed, to pass stone and . Meanwhile it helps to practice your outflowing qi kung, as sometimes while person is in EA, your added energy registers better, so you entrain to the subjective feelings of connecting easier. Without desperate feeling to touch or be conduit for the pasture. The place in them natural healthy pleasant. Martin Dean <martin wrote: Does anyone have experience of the following? I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on palpation. 2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a couple of days and then the pain returns. Any suggestions? Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hi Salvador. I remember you from a giving up smoking course you ran. Nice to make contact again. The date of birth is 15/6/75. By the way I ought to introduce myself to all you folks. I qualified in 1995 from the college of Traditional acupuncture in Leamington Spa UK, where I am now a prospective faculty member. I have a practice in Nottingham, and am also a clinical supervisor on the BSC Acupuncture course at the University of Lincoln. In betwen all this I manage to find time to be a CPD facilitator for the British Acupuncture Council! Regards >>> Martin salvador march wrote: > Hi Can you supply a date of birth for this patient? > > > >Does anyone have experience of the following? > >I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided > >Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. > >When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. > >She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on > >palpation. > > > >2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was > >misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It > >was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the > >kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now > >events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. > > > >The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She > >has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on > >the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. > >Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. > >She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but > >reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a > >couple of days and then the pain returns. > >Any suggestions? > > > > > > _______________ > Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection > http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups' homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Yes I thought this was the case - the 'steaming' of substantial phlegm. Martin wrote: > I thought the formation of stones in the kidney and gallbladder was > due to the accumulation of substantial phlegm. Has anyone else heard > of this? > > Attilio > > <snakeoil.works@m...> wrote: > > Martin, > > Straining urine to catch the stone is significant, as it can be > sent to lab > > for ID of the type, ie. uric acid or oxalic acid. This allows for > adjustment > > in diet accordingly. B6 and magnesium for oxalic acid ones, for > example. > > Drinking lots of water is key; dehydration is considered one of the > > causative agents. > > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups' homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 In regard to my patient, she is very definitely Yang Xu. Also she is unable to drink too much water because of restricted urine flow. Indeed drinking too much water can be very painful for her. Martin mystir wrote: >Heat is also often a factor in k. stone development, either excess or k. yin def. heat. Heat also factor in either uric or oxalic. The phlegm may be invisible type, manifesting in pulse and tongue more than in body observation or dampness type complaints. But vis or invisible needs treatment too. > Many people do not realize that soy and soy products are very high in oxalics, more than spinach or peanuts often. > > <attiliodalberto wrote: >I thought the formation of stones in the kidney and gallbladder was >due to the accumulation of substantial phlegm. Has anyone else heard >of this? > >Attilio > ><snakeoil.works@m...> wrote: > >>Martin, >>Straining urine to catch the stone is significant, as it can be >> >sent to lab > >>for ID of the type, ie. uric acid or oxalic acid. This allows for >> >adjustment > >>in diet accordingly. B6 and magnesium for oxalic acid ones, for >> >example. > >>Drinking lots of water is key; dehydration is considered one of the >>causative agents. >> > > > > >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > >To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > >To send an email to ><Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dear All, Thanks for your help on this subject. I honestly hadn't considered Kidney stones. This shows how we can sometimes miss the really onvious! I will review the patients medical diagnoses at her next visit. One thing still puzzles me though. I thought Kidney stones were the result of phlegm and heat. This lady is very Yang Xu, which is why my first line of enquiry was of contracting pain due to cold. The diagnosis she has been given is of strong pelvic contraction. Any further thoughts Regards >>> Martin Does anyone have experience of the following? I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on palpation. 2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a couple of days and then the pain returns. Any suggestions? ------------------------ Seventhmoon Complementary Health Centre " Positively Life Enhancing " Tel: 0115 9251184 www.seventhmoon.co.uk ------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Martin wrote: >Hi Salvador. I remember you from a giving up smoking course you ran. >Nice to make contact again. >The date of birth is 15/6/75. > >Does anyone have experience of the following? > >I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided > >Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. > >When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. > >She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on > >palpation. > > > >2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was > >misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It > >was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the > >kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now > >events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. > > > >The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney type. She > >has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on > >the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. > >Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. > >She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but > >reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a > >couple of days and then the pain returns. > >Any suggestions? > > Hi Martin I dont know what this woman is in terms of C.F I can tell you waht she is not I dont have the time just yet. And I doubt you willlike what I am going to say. She is not Water C.F. and to treat her there is to complicate matters. I will need more info. But the patttern will fall between the GBladder, ST and LU. My first thought is an excess GB But if she gets Headaches I might try excess LU. If indigestion too much eating I might consider excess ST Come back to me with more symptoms and I will gladly work with you to find out what is really going on.we could chat on msn and brainstorm. NIce to make contact Martin Salvador www. meridian-qi-acupuncture.com _______________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Martin, It sounds like yr patient is in a dire situation. Blockage of the ureters to the point where urine cannot be passed is an emergency situation, for urine can then back up into the kidney -- very dangerous! Inadequate water intake is one of the causes of this, as pointed out by our noted vet in residence here. This is a situation that requires medical intervention, i feel. Acidifying the urine by drinking 2 tbsp of apple cider vinegar(i had none on hand so used balsamic) in water first thing in the morning, and taking frequent Vit. C may help to break up the stone, as well as taking the herbs mentioned in the previous post, but at this stage it definitely must be treated as an emergency. When was the last you spoke to her? She should get a scan to verify, then opt for lithotrypsy, if indicated. Using pain meds to temporize at this point is simply masking, if the stone is too large to pass. She may be yang xu, but if i recall, she is young, so i would suspect that yang xu doesn't tell the whole story. It does not preclude localized heat. Not to mention dryness. Phlegm???? Let's have that discussion. What is it?? But first....the ER. Ann In regard to my patient, she is very definitely Yang Xu. Also she is unable to drink too much water because of restricted urine flow. Indeed drinking too much water can be very painful for her. Martin mystir wrote: >Heat is also often a factor in k. stone development, either excess or k. yin def. heat. Heat also factor in either uric or oxalic. The phlegm may be invisible type, manifesting in pulse and tongue more than in body observation or dampness type complaints. But vis or invisible needs treatment too. > Many people do not realize that soy and soy products are very high in oxalics, more than spinach or peanuts often. > > <attiliodalberto wrote: >I thought the formation of stones in the kidney and gallbladder was >due to the accumulation of substantial phlegm. Has anyone else heard >of this? > >Attilio > ><snakeoil.works@m...> wrote: > >>Martin, >>Straining urine to catch the stone is significant, as it can be >> >sent to lab > >>for ID of the type, ie. uric acid or oxalic acid. This allows for >> >adjustment > >>in diet accordingly. B6 and magnesium for oxalic acid ones, for >> >example. > >>Drinking lots of water is key; dehydration is considered one of the >>causative agents. >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hi all, I have more to say on this subject but just for now, I have remember that not 6 weeks back I had a female patient with similar symptoms of extreme back pain around r kidney area extendeing down to flank. Interestingly enough she was excess...damm cant remember.. either excess SP or excess GB .. My point is that I cleared the pain with in 3 treatments. Why? because the pain was due to internal muscular contraction. salvador _______________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Hi Salvador, Some more information on my patient with Kidney pain. She has had extensive tests (scans + endoscopy) which have positively ruled out kidney stones or ovarian cysts. The suggested medical diagnosis is pelvic muscular contractions. Patient is generally cold but suffers with night sweats. No energy. Some back stiffness which goes back many years. Pulled right deltoid muscle and it isnt getting better. Long history of cystitis. Poor sleeping because of pain. Usually thirsty because she daren't drink too much. Periods -stomach ache before menstruation, quantity of blood varies light to heavy, without clots. Tongue - normal colour, red spots all over. Moist. No coating. Pulses - Bl/Kid and left side wiry,otherwise empty and deficient. Patient is definitely not an earth type, though wood is a possibility. You mentioned possible fulllness in GB. This sounds feasible because the pain refers along this channel, but the only GB fullness patterns I can think of are GB deficient and GB damp-heat. Regards >> Martin salvador march wrote: > Martin wrote: > > >Hi Salvador. I remember you from a giving up smoking course you ran. > >Nice to make contact again. > >The date of birth is 15/6/75. > > > >Does anyone have experience of the following? > > >I am treating a woman in her twenties who presents with right-sided > > >Kidney pain which is very strong ('hideous'), and largely continous. > > >When bad, it refers round from the back to the Kidney alarm point GB25. > > >She lives on pain killers. Her right side lower Jiao is very tender on > > >palpation. > > > > > >2 years ago she had the same thing on the left side. This was > > >misdiagnosed as cystitis and she was told to drink plenty of water. It > > >was subsequently diagnosed as a restriction of the ureter, but the > > >kidney was so badly damaged by this time it had to be removed. So now > > >events are repeating herself, this time on the right side. > > > > > >The patient gets very chilly, and is almost certainly a kidney > type. She > > >has been prone to cystitis since puberty. Her pulse is thin and wiry on > > >the left side, and empty on the right. The Bl/Kid pulse is also deep. > > >Her tongue is a normal colour with red spots all over and is wet. > > >She gets some relief from needling Bl28 with moxa on the handle, but > > >reinforcing Kid 3 increases the pain! The relief from treatment lasts a > > >couple of days and then the pain returns. > > >Any suggestions? > > > > > > Hi Martin I dont know what this woman is in terms of C.F I can tell > you waht > she is not > > I dont have the time just yet. And I doubt you willlike what I am > going to > say. She is not Water C.F. and to treat her there is to complicate > matters. > > > I will need more info. But the patttern will fall between the > GBladder, ST > and LU. > > My first thought is an excess GB But if she gets Headaches I might try > excess LU. > > If indigestion too much eating I might consider excess ST Come back to me > with more symptoms and I will gladly work with you to find out what is > really going on.we could chat on msn and brainstorm. > > NIce to make contact Martin > > Salvador > www. meridian-qi-acupuncture.com > > _______________ > Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. > http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups' homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Martin wrote: Hi Salvador, Some more information on my patient with Kidney pain. She has had extensive tests (scans + endoscopy) which have positively ruled out kidney stones or ovarian cysts. The suggested medical diagnosis is pelvic muscular contractions. Patient is generally cold but suffers with night sweats. No energy. Some back stiffness which goes back many years. Pulled right deltoid muscle and it isnt getting better. Long history of cystitis. Poor sleeping because of pain. Usually thirsty because she daren't drink too much. Periods -stomach ache before menstruation, quantity of blood varies light to heavy, without clots. Tongue - normal colour, red spots all over. Moist. No coating. Pulses - Bl/Kid and left side wiry,otherwise empty and deficient. Patient is definitely not an earth type, though wood is a possibility. You mentioned possible fulllness in GB. This sounds feasible because the pain refers along this channel, but the only GB fullness patterns I can think of are GB deficient and GB damp-heat. Regards >> Martin ____ Thanks for getting back Martin! Since you have given a number of treatments on Water the picture will be a bit muddied so we have to look at symptoms before she was treated with acupuncture. The lack of coat is disconcerting for a young woman, could be painkillers for many years I suppose. I have patient in his 70's that had no coat when he first came to see me interestingly he is prone to Def. LU excess GB. If there are no symptoms to do with the ST in terms of digestion either can't eat what ever she fancies, indigestion, dry lips, knee problems etc.,then the pattern will fall between GB and LU. One will be prone to Def. and the other to Excess/ Stag. But which? Here is where your skills come In Weak GB? how is her sense of self worth. Excess? a bit on the irritable side? Weak LU? listless? weepy? stuck in loss? breathless? lack of stamina? excess? Chest problems? overly critical? I favour the weak LU scenario because you mention the Deltoid not sure about the night sweats and lack of coat but they could also be due to the LU. alos with this pattern I would expect anxiety because of the HE involvement. Excess GB? usually with this you have to look at structure rather than function. the present back pain towards flanks sounds possible. also the period pains. waht about neck shoulder tension? headaches? bloating? what are the stools like? is she digesting oils? lack of energy could mean anything if the pain is keeping her awake. So how do you find out? Make a decision. Say for the sake of argument you concur with my assesment. then you might try sedating GB.25 Wait 5 minutes ask for feedback is she more relaxed or more agitated? is there a settling in the pulses? is her mouth getting wetter or drier? drier is always a no no. IF confident that the effect is positive then add some more. I'd try GB-34, as well as the Acc. point. If you are happy with the response from the above then Ton. LU-9 is she more solid and grounded? pulses feeling more even? still good supply of saliva? then add LU-1 etc., You may know the above approach but others new to the game may not so I have included the advice. When she comes back the next week she should report feeling better for at least 2/3 days before pain gets worse again, feeling more solid grounded etc., if none of the above are true. Then you would have to consider ythe opposite ie. DEf. GB Excess LU. I am assuming that the ST is not getting a look in from what you have said salvador www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com _______________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Do you think she could be suffering from some sort of toxicity. Gall bladder is connected to liver and liver has all to do with cleansing the blood of toxins. If she is not eliminating properly then gall bladder channel problems will show up quickly. I'm thinking of things like restless leg syndrome after eating something 'toxic' to her. Just a thought. Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Interesting thought Christine. I shall ponder this further. Martin cmfadley wrote: > > Do you think she could be suffering from some sort of toxicity. Gall > bladder is connected to liver and liver has all to do with cleansing > the blood of toxins. If she is not eliminating properly then gall > bladder channel problems will show up quickly. I'm thinking of things > like restless leg syndrome after eating something 'toxic' to her. > Just a thought. > Christine > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups' homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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