Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Dagmar, Are you IN China? Where are you? Can anyone (Todd) provide instructions on how to know the background and location of the people who are members of this group? Thank you. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 A few points. First, I am a big advocate of criticism. I think it is vitally important that ideas and institutions of all kind are subjected to rigorous criticism. That's how things improve, by and large. I hope that my earlier response to Dagmar has not been interpreted on the list as an aversion to criticism of Chinese medical education in China. I myself participate in the making of such criticism from time to time, particularly when I'm in China dealing with those people and institutions. What I challenged in Dagmar's post had little to do with the " state of TCM education in China " other than that it was the focus of what I perceived to be unfounded generalities. Whenever anyone makes a criticism, I think it's important that we all be able to understand who that person is and why he or she is making the criticism. The only way I know of finding such information out is to ask for it and see what happens. I am not familiar with all the work that you cite, so I can't comment on it specifically. I will only add a couple of observations so that people on the list who are monitoring these posts can have whatever benefit another point of view affords. The situation with respect to medical care in general in China is substantially different from the one that exist in the States, by and large. Traditional medicine accounts for something on the order of 15% or so of the overall public health services provided in the urban areas. As I said when this topic came up earlier, Chinese statistics should all be taken with a grain of sand and a wide margin of error. But I don't think it is wrong to say that traditional medicine in China accounts for a relatively small percentage of the overall health care scene. Remember that Chinese medicine was largely disorganized and disintegrated for the first half of the 20th century in China. Traditional medicine began to fall prey to the forces of modernism in China over a hundred years ago. In 1993 I remember giving an acupuncture treatment to the grandfather of a friend of mine. This old man was a famous electronic engineer and educator. He was 83 and suffering from Parkinsons when I met him . He had retired from the position of President of the Chengdu University of Electronic Science and Technology. A man of learning and influence. The treatments I gave him were the first acupupncture he had ever had. He'd grown up through an enormously dynamic period of Chinese history and never come into direct contact with acupuncture. Like the majority of well educated Chinese I met, his opinion of traditional medicine was that it is no match for modern Western medicine. I relate this story only to suggest that like here in the States, in China traditonal Chinese medicine competes in an environment that is largely biased against it. It is true that the use of herbs, both as food and as medicine, is far more prevalent than acupuncture. Herbal medicine is a thread that is woven deeply into the fabric of life in China. However, the country today is gripped in one of the greatest upheavals of humanity that has ever taken place. People who have not been there simply find it hard to imagine what it's like in Chinese cities. I have heard estimates of as many as 150,000,000 people having moved from the countryside to the cities over the past 10-15 years, and that is just one factor in the current state of the Chinese revolution. From public health perspectives, there are enormous pressures to develop high volume methods of dealing with vast numbers of sick and injured people who fill up Chinese hospitals of all kinds. As you have noted, the presence of pressures from export markets only complictes matters. The status of doctors in China in general is not on par with that enjoyed by members of medical professions in this country. Many doctors in China could earn far more money selling ice cream on the street than from practicing medicine in their clinics. The same is truer still for academics, including medical researchers. I had not been in China long before I learned about a phenomenon in Chinese hospitals known as " book money. " In order to attract the attention of surgeons who are overwhelmed with procedures to perform, patients bring in substantial amounts of money, sometimes tens of thousands of RMB (the local currency) stashed in the pages of books. The books are handed to the doctors along with the plea to help the patient in need. Those who can make such unofficial payments often get the care they need, and those who cannot often do not. But even having money sometimes does not guarantee access to needed care. The father of a friend of mine who is a well known actress in China died in the corridor of a hospital in Chengdu after suffering a heart attack several hours earlier. No doctor ever saw this old man before he died. Money is a powerful force, and it has a profound influence on the study and practice of medicine of all kinds in all places at all times. Money flows in from outside the country and it tends to foster corresponding development. International markets demand...and pay for training in acupuncture, and the acupuncture departments swell in size and political influence. Pharmaceutical firms proceed to mine the herbal pharmacopia for ingredients to formulate into new drugs, and spending relatively large sums of money they attract great attention and activity. Now there is a self-fulfilling prophecy if I've ever seen one. Pfizer has had a research affiliation with the Beijing Academy of TCM for some five years now. The money from such associations becomes an enormously attractive force at work on the medical communities there, and this includes both the TCM and Western medical communities. I think all aspects the whole situation need to be carefully scrutinized and vigorously criticized. Just as I feel all aspects of Chinese medical education in this country should be carefully scrutinized and vigorously criticized. We owe it to ourselves to endure whatever discomfort such exchange of ideas may engender. I'm very curious to learn of the experience of others in and with TCM education in China. Ken > , " Dagmar Riley " <dagmar- > riley@g...> wrote: > > The outcome of this policy is: Western diagnosis and Chinese herbs. > Or, as above, western diagnosis and Western drugs. When I did my > clinical practice for acupuncture in the Dongzhimen hospital, I found > many doctors not even feeling the pulse and placing needles " as in > the book " , meaning according to fixed needle prescriptions without > any changes according to the individual case. Then again, there are > brilliant doctors. But they are mostly the old generation. > > Dagmar > > With all due respect to dissenting views, I have heard Dagmar's > sentiment expressed by many many travelers to China, none of whom I > will quote verbatim. But Volker Scheid had a scholarly article to > this effect several years ago in the European Journal of OM. This > opinion has also been expressed by Manfred Porkert, Paul Unschuld and > Heiner Fruehauf at various times. So it is clearly not without > foundation. > > In fact, Fruehauf has tried to distinguish his program from state > sponsored integrative medicine by calling it classical chinese > medicine, a misnomer that nevertheless underscores his trong feeling > son this subject. I first met Dr.Fruehauf waiting on line for lunch > one day where he was railing about blood pressure cuffs replacing, > not supplementing, traditional methods in many hospitals > > In addition, a number of chinese professors have confided in me that > many of those who really want to pursue TCM instead of integrative > medicine leave China for the west. That is one of the reasons that > PRC professors here in the west may not reflect the situation Dagmar > describes; they are the cream of the crop who has left China. > Apparently, cheng du is still somewhat of a bastion for > traditionalists, but there are even pressures there to change. > > Largely, it comes down to market forces, ironically, not communism, > that is doing this. For one thing, development of products for sale > to the west is a large source of cash flow for most university > hospitals these days. Also, the prestige of western doctors is so > much higher than that of TCM doctors, that it is no suprise that TCM > doctors often end up practicing essentially western medicine with > herbs and acupuncture thrown in. They do this to make a living. The > modern chinese are as likely to want antibiotics for an acute > illnesses > asin the west. So while never having been to China myself, Dagmar's > tale rings true to me. > > And while there are no doubt pockets of great enthusiasm and skill, I > think the opinion of a variety of detached scholars holds a lot of > weight here. > > > > > ------ > Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. > Remember the good 'ol days > http://click./1/4053/9/_/542111/_/960224532/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Dagmar is indeed in China, but group members generally do not reveal personal information, except in their intro post. What there is is at http://www.w/members/ However, most folks have opted to not even include their name. This is an unfortunate reponse to all the panic in media about privacy online. Since the group list and profiles are available only to group members, not the entire internet, I would like it if people at least filled out their first names and occupation/interests; skip the address, phone, etc and other identifying info. , juliej8@a... wrote: > Dagmar, > > Are you IN China? Where are you? Can anyone (Todd) provide instructions on > how to know the background and location of the people who are members of this > group? > > Thank you. > > Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2004 Report Share Posted March 16, 2004 I'm curious as to which areas of China use chinese medicine more prominently than others. There's been talk of it becoming secondary to western medicine, but where in China would you be more likely to experience chinese medicine as part of the culture? Nicole. _______________ Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au & page=hotmail/es2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2004 Report Share Posted March 16, 2004 Hi Nicole I have been checking out some of the hospitals to do some additional training. I was surprised to learn that some of the hospitals were using WM more than TCM. Here is the message I received back when I asked the same question. There are TCM clinics, acupuncture clinics, Tuina clinics and Western Medicine clinics in our hospital. In TCM clinic, Doctors only prescribe TCM herbal medicine to their patients, unless patient insist to have western medicine, otherwise patients all take pure herbs. In the ward, it depands patient's medical condition, dorctor give herbs and western medicine accordingly. We have quite a lot good TCM Physicians in our hospital. So far I'm impressed with the facility for learning. I spoke with a previous instructor and she mentioned she went to the same facility and learned alot. She was there for 5 months. I plan on going for 2-3 months to study. I will be leaving May of June. Hope this helps...Here's the link... Zhejiang International Exchange Center of Clinical TCM (IEC-TCM) Zhejiang Provincial Hospital of Traditional (TCM) http://www.chinatcm.org/ Brian Nicole Wallis <nicole_wallis wrote: I'm curious as to which areas of China use chinese medicine more prominently than others. There's been talk of it becoming secondary to western medicine, but where in China would you be more likely to experience chinese medicine as part of the culture? Nicole. _______________ Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au & page=hotmail/es2 Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. To send an email to <Chinese Medicine- > from the email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still recieve messages for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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