Is AP just a Placebo, or have some Acupoints specific effects?

[Guest guest]

However, for almost 30

years, I have argued that controlled trials should avoid " Sham

Needling " , or stimulation of " non-active " points. This is because we

cannnot be certain (in advance) that the " Non-Active " points really

are that. As many on the lists have said, any stimulus anywhere

on the body can have some effects.

>>>>Phil the problem is that if you cant do better than a monkey putting in

needles why do we spend all this money on study. Just give a set of needles to

anyone that knows some anatomy (just for safely) and let them stick. The only

way is to compare sham needles to so-called active acupuncture. While i also

have a hard time believing its all just inserting needles when treating pain, as

all these studies were on pain, my belief and personal FEELING is irrelevant. I

am worried when i hear we cannot do better than sham needles, and then try to

make a case for other study methods.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>>>>> Phil the problem is that if you cant do better than a monkey

>>>>> putting in needles why do we spend all this money on study.

 

 

Top ten reasons humans are better at acupuncture than monkeys:

 

10) Clean needle technique is compromised by feces flinging.

 

9) ASHP doesn't pay enough bananas.

 

8) A monkey performing veterinary acupuncture would throw the legal

profession into a quandary that Solomon couldn't resolve.

 

7) Insistence that every internal problem is parasites gives rise to

excessive use of dangerous anti-parasitic herbs.

 

6) Giant Pandas under represented in western TCM conferences.

 

5) Jane Goodall watching from the shadows makes patients uncomfortable.

 

4) Standard of care doesn't include screaming and jumping on patient's

back.

 

3) Hypersensitive to jokes about Peter, Mickey, Davy, and Michael.

 

2) Scope of practice compromised by lack of state level representation.

 

And the #1 reason that humans are better than monkeys at acupuncture

is...

 

Monkeys prefer to stick it out with their chiropractic training!

 

 

Okay, my apologies to the chiros on the list. I know you're out there,

just having a little fun here. : )

 

 

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

While the results of the large German Study have been leaked

prematurely, I understand that it is not over yet. Even if its authors'

conclusions stand, my belief in, or approach to, AP will not alter

because of that study; it simply is irrelevant to me.

 

Is AP only as good as placebo? Before we all dump our AP

needles and hurry to register for another career, maybe we should

take such so-called controlled trials of AP with a large pinch of salt.

 

For some, the word " placebo " is derogatory; for me it is not. I have

argued before that all great healers want to help the client. That is

indeed a placebo effect (wanting to please). So, really good AP

therapy is probably a mixture of powerful placebo + conditioning

the human client's (even the animal patient's) mind by instilling

trust and confidence, + professional skill and knowledge, based on

deep study of the TCM and modern principles of AP.

 

There ARE a few controlled studies that showed significant clinical

or physiological benefits in favour of needling " Real Points " as

compared with nearby " non-active " points. However, for almost 30

years, I have argued that controlled trials should avoid " Sham

Needling " , or stimulation of " non-active " points. This is because we

cannnot be certain (in advance) that the " Non-Active " points really

are that. As many on the lists have said, any stimulus anywhere

on the body can have some effects.

 

If they have some positive effect, the comparison between the " Non-

Active " and " Active " points can show little difference. Therefore, the

conclusion that " Real AP is no better than placebo " can be very

misleading.

 

IMO, the best (most productive) research in AP would be to

compare the overall clinical results results of a huge population of

of patients, randomised to 3 groups:

(A) treated by skilled AP practitioners; (B) treated by skilled

allopaths, and © treated by combining both therapies.

 

I would expect the overall clinical outcomes results to be

C > A > B,

or C > A or B, with little difference between A or B.

 

As regards specificity of acupoint effects, on one extreme, some

would claim that needling ANY point can activate a similar

response to needling any other point. I do not believe that, although

I have heard that some Masters of AP use very few points, and can

get dozens of different (specifically desired) effects from needling,

say, LI04 or ST36 in different ways.

 

On the other extreme there are those who say that each point has

its specific effects. For example BL21 (ST Shu) works best on ST.

I do not believe that either! We know that several spinal segments

innervate each internal organ, so needling any point from BL17-18

to BL24-25, or their outer partners, or the Huato or GV Points

nearby, would be expected to have some effect on ST also.

 

Also, I have no doubt that BL21 also influences LV, GB, SP. TH.

KI. uterus, etc.

 

Would there be a big difference between AP at (GV26 + KI01) in

Emergencies (coma, apnoea, shock, etc) versus (say) AP at

(GV20 + KI03)?

 

Would there be a big difference between AP at (PC06, ST36, BL21,

CV12) in nausea/vomiting versus (say) AP at (PC03, ST32, BL12,

CV23)?

 

Would there be a big difference between AP at Fenglong-ST40

( " Banxia " Point) in profuse sputum/phlegm versus (say) AP at

GB35 or GB36?

 

Are Thoresen has reported that AP at Taichong-LV03 is effective in

mammary cancer. Would anyone care to speculate if needling at

GB40 or GB41 would have equally good effects as needling at

LV03?

 

The TRUTH probably lies somewhere between those two extremes

(all points being equally effective versus specific points having very

specific effects). There is definitely some clinical significance for

TCM placing the SP and LV Channels on the big toe. The gout-liver

connection is obvious.

 

Have you ever seen necrosis of the lateral corner of the nailbed of

the big toe in people on cancer chemotherapy? [LV is the main

organ of detox for most toxins].

 

Have you seen an abscess of the medial corner of the nailbed of

the big toe in people with classical SP Disharmony (unstable blood

sugar, immunosuppression, obsession, Jeckyll & Hyde changeable

mentality related to hypoglycaemia circa 1.5 hours after the last

ingestion of carbohydrate, etc)?

 

Finally, why do different acupuncturists (most of whom are getting

good to excellent clinical results) use different points in the " same

type " of cases? IMO, this is because of differences in their training

and experience, but also because of differences in their mental

paradigms and their intention.

 

IMO, AP by a robot arm, no matter how precise and technically

correct cannot give the same results as AP by a sympathetic

practitioner who puts his Yi (intention directed by knowledge,

instinct and love) into the therapeutic mix.

 

Let us work to MAXIMISE the placebo effect, rather than

consigning it to the dustbin.

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I agree with your sentiments on placebo. A healthy belly laugh can

double the immunoglobulin A in the lungs ... greatly improving the

wei qi. Is that placebo, interactive medicine or CM? ... Or all

three and more? My currently favorite placebo besides acupuncture &

moxa is going for a trail run along the beach or along the ridge in

the forested hills above Berkeley.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

 

>

> For some, the word " placebo " is derogatory; for me it is not. I

have argued before that all great healers want to help the client.

That is indeed a placebo effect (wanting to please). So, really good

AP therapy is probably a mixture of powerful placebo + conditioning

> the human client's (even the animal patient's) mind by instilling

> trust and confidence, + professional skill and knowledge, based on

> deep study of the TCM and modern principles of AP.

>

[Guest guest]

So again the question; do we get better results after doing all out continuous

education courses (what do IVAS say, as they demand such courses??).

Are

 

Are Simeon Thoresen

arethore

http://home.online.no/~arethore/

 

-

Alon Marcus

;

traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Cc: lIKEMLIST ; pa-l ; pva-l

Friday, March 19, 2004 3:43 AM

Re: Is AP just a Placebo, or have some Acupoints specific

effects?

 

 

However, for almost 30

years, I have argued that controlled trials should avoid " Sham

Needling " , or stimulation of " non-active " points. This is because we

cannnot be certain (in advance) that the " Non-Active " points really

are that. As many on the lists have said, any stimulus anywhere

on the body can have some effects.

>>>>Phil the problem is that if you cant do better than a monkey putting in

needles why do we spend all this money on study. Just give a set of needles to

anyone that knows some anatomy (just for safely) and let them stick. The only

way is to compare sham needles to so-called active acupuncture. While i also

have a hard time believing its all just inserting needles when treating pain, as

all these studies were on pain, my belief and personal FEELING is irrelevant. I

am worried when i hear we cannot do better than sham needles, and then try to

make a case for other study methods.

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

 

>

> Let us work to MAXIMISE the placebo effect, rather than

> consigning it to the dustbin.

>

 

Great point Phil, if it helps to make the patient better we should

make as much use of it as possible.

 

Mark Burrows

[Guest guest]

, " " <@e...>

wrote:

This is because we

> cannnot be certain (in advance) that the " Non-Active " points really

> are that. As many on the lists have said, any stimulus anywhere

> on the body can have some effects.

 

The fact that the results of either sham or regular acupuncture are far better

than placebo proves that something " active " is going on in either case. It

never occurred to me that this is merely the same as the placebo effect. but I

think you missed the point of my concern. It is not that sham points are

inactive. I agree with you that this is a misleading terms. However, if one

can get not only decent, but excellent, effects regardless of where one places

the points, then it does suggest that that traditional THEORY does not matter

in this process.

 

One would still need to needle the patient, so some training in anatomy and

technique and medicine in general are still necessary for this process. It

could not be performed by a monkey. However, it is interesting to hear about

non-insertion needling at the same time as we discuss this study. I would

assume that non-insertion needling would be considered a sham approach to

stimulating the points by most medical researchers. But it maybe is the case

that all such approaches are " active " ; it just does not matter which one you

choose. The sham acupuncture must have been done by those who knew they

were performing a sham, while regular acupuncture was done by believers.

this should have skewed the results even more in favor of regular acupuncture.

the fact that sham did just as well under these conditions suugests that the

action is much more than placebo.

 

finally, I do also consider placebo to be a true physiological response. If the

physiology changes, it is real. Under controlled circumstances, placebo is low

(30%) but jumps to as high as 90% for some conditions in a private clinic. It

is no doubt the care of the doctor that also heals. the point is how much

education is necessary to practice medicine and who gets to do it if this is

truly the case for a large number of complaints. Medicine is major financial

drain on our society and if much of it can be performed with LESS training,

what the hell is all this fuss about MORE training for entry level. this study

appears to suggest that anyone who can exude an air of confidence about what

they do and have the knowledge to do it safely can expect excellent results,

even w/o CM theory.

 

I still think this study will lend more support to things like the chiro

acupuncture certificate. You guys may not read it this way or put your own

spin on it, but you must consider who will be making the decisions on such

matters and how they will perceive things. I think the most obvious (and

admittedly superficial) interpretation is the one I have offered and it takes

quite a bit more abstraction to understand other positions. will the

legislators who decide this issue be able to understand the abstractions. I

doubt it. This is just another reason I hate politics. the whole discussion on

such matters is just beyond the comprehension of the decisionmakers, yet we

are not accorded the expert status to rebut their ignorance.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Alon,

 

I had written:

>> However, for almost 30 years, I have argued that controlled

trials should avoid " Sham Needling " , or stimulation of " non-active "

points. This is because we cannnot be certain (in advance) that the

" Non-Active " points really are that. As many on the lists have said,

any stimulus anywhere on the body can have some effects.

 

Alon replied:

> Phil, ... if [we] can't do better than a monkey putting in needles

> why do we spend all this money on study? Just give a set of

> needles to anyone that knows some anatomy (just for safely) and let

> them stick. The only way is to compare sham needles to so-called

> active AP.

 

Alon, with respect, I disagree. The DESIGN of a research project

must reflect the main question or hypothesis to be addressed.

IMO, the main question today is: how do the costs and clinical

outcomes of expert acupuncture compare with those of expert

allopathy? That question has no need for sham points to be

included in the study.

 

> While i also have a hard time believing it's all just inserting

> needles when treating pain, as all these studies were on pain, my

> belief and personal FEELING is irrelevant.

 

Again, I disagree. Personal FEELING (empathy with the subject) is

VERY IMPORTANT in therapy. Are Thoresen has cited several

examples [with references] of the importance of Yi [intention/belief]

in AP. For example, in, " An important mechanism in Homeopathy

and Acupuncture and its implications in Veterinary Medicine " , he

cites Volker Scheid & Dan Bensky:

 

" In pre-Han China, Yì (intention) was considered a pre-requisite of

the knowledge and understanding required for and derived from the

divination practices based on the I-jing. " Yì is what the sages used

to search profundity and study the all encompassing. As it is

profound, it can penetrate throughout the purpose of the

subcelestial realm. As it is all encompassing, it can penetrate

throughout the affairs of the subcelestial realm. As it is divine, it is

fast but never hurries; it arrives but never travels " .

 

> I am worried when i hear we cannot do better than sham needles,

> and then try to make a case for other study methods. Alon

 

IMO, skilled acupuncturists can do much better than trained

monkeys or robots. IMO, love, intuition/intuition, knowledge,

empathy AND mysticism ALL are involved in optimum therapy.

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

I think we should consider that the German study included more than

just acupuncture and sham acupuncture. Here's a quote from the

website reporting this study:

 

" Patients were allocated at random to one of three treatment groups:

real acupuncture plus standard medical care; sham acupuncture

(needles were simply stuck into non-acupuncture points) plus standard

medical care; or standard medical care alone. "

 

Seems that 'standar medical care' should be consider part of the

equation.

 

Fernando

 

, " "

wrote:

> , " "

<@e...>

> wrote:

> This is because we

> > cannnot be certain (in advance) that the " Non-Active " points

really

> > are that. As many on the lists have said, any stimulus anywhere

> > on the body can have some effects.

>

> The fact that the results of either sham or regular acupuncture are

far better

> than placebo proves that something " active " is going on in either

case.

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

That's actually quite interesting Phil. I take it that when you

said " compare with those of expert allopathy " you were referring to

WM medicines rather than western docs 'trained' in acupuncture.

 

Note that all research studies are undertaken against a sham form of

acupuncture or another form of control such as relaxation, rather

than against market leaders in allopathic medicines, such as

aspirin.

 

Why is that?

 

Attilio

 

 

" " <@e...> wrote:

 

> Alon, with respect, I disagree. The DESIGN of a research project

> must reflect the main question or hypothesis to be addressed.

> IMO, the main question today is: how do the costs and clinical

> outcomes of expert acupuncture compare with those of expert

> allopathy? That question has no need for sham points to be

> included in the study.

[Guest guest]

Sorry afterthought.

 

Most western research into new medicines is conducted against the

market leaders (competition medicine) as this forms a base line from

which result outcomes are compared. Why isn't this done in

acupuncture studies.

 

Attilio

 

" " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> That's actually quite interesting Phil. I take it that when you

> said " compare with those of expert allopathy " you were referring

to

> WM medicines rather than western docs 'trained' in acupuncture.

>

> Note that all research studies are undertaken against a sham form

of

> acupuncture or another form of control such as relaxation, rather

> than against market leaders in allopathic medicines, such as

> aspirin.

>

> Why is that?

>

> Attilio

>

>

> " " <@e...> wrote:

>

> > Alon, with respect, I disagree. The DESIGN of a research project

> > must reflect the main question or hypothesis to be addressed.

> > IMO, the main question today is: how do the costs and clinical

> > outcomes of expert acupuncture compare with those of expert

> > allopathy? That question has no need for sham points to be

> > included in the study.

[Guest guest]

In western medicine test a treatment with less of 30% of effect is

considering placebo. I think that in some cases a 30% of relief is very

thankful for some patients and if is effect of placebo, thanks placebo.

 

 

 

But when you are trying to prove some theory (hypothesis), you need try to

isolate the effects and contrast it with control groups, this is necessary

to grow up in knowledge.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Fdo.

 

 

 

-----Mensaje original-----

De: [attiliodalberto]

Enviado el: Viernes, 19 de Marzo de 2004 9:25

Para: Chinese Medicine

Asunto: Re: Is AP just a Placebo, or have some Acupoints specific

effects?

 

 

 

Sorry afterthought.

 

Most western research into new medicines is conducted against the

market leaders (competition medicine) as this forms a base line from

which result outcomes are compared. Why isn't this done in

acupuncture studies.

 

Attilio

 

" " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> That's actually quite interesting Phil. I take it that when you

> said " compare with those of expert allopathy " you were referring

to

> WM medicines rather than western docs 'trained' in acupuncture.

>

> Note that all research studies are undertaken against a sham form

of

> acupuncture or another form of control such as relaxation, rather

> than against market leaders in allopathic medicines, such as

> aspirin.

>

> Why is that?

>

> Attilio

>

>

> " " <@e...> wrote:

>

> > Alon, with respect, I disagree. The DESIGN of a research project

> > must reflect the main question or hypothesis to be addressed.

> > IMO, the main question today is: how do the costs and clinical

> > outcomes of expert acupuncture compare with those of expert

> > allopathy? That question has no need for sham points to be

> > included in the study.

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none,

visit the groups' homepage:

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To send an email to

<Chinese Medicine- > from the email

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[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

I agree with you that this is a misleading terms. However, if one

> can get not only decent, but excellent,

 

I must of missed another post... What were the excellent results? Were

there some numbers actually discussed//.. Just beating placebo (to me)

doesn't me excellent... And this study, as rory points out, says

nothing about both medical acu and sham acu comparing to 'real' acu...

Only that they are equal... Correct? Am I missing something?

 

-Jason

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

Truly a courageous post. I support you on this ... whether the treatment is

from CM or from WM, success is predicated on all that you've posited. CM may in

itself allow for the larger cultural substrate and broader human experience, but

success from any quarter would need all that you've indicted. Well stated.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

Chinese Medicine

Cc: lIKEMLIST ; pa-l ; pva-l

Friday, March 19, 2004 4:34 AM

Re: Is AP just a Placebo, or have some Acupoints specific

effects?

 

 

Hi All, & Hi Alon,

 

I had written:

>> However, for almost 30 years, I have argued that controlled

trials should avoid " Sham Needling " , or stimulation of " non-active "

points. This is because we cannnot be certain (in advance) that the

" Non-Active " points really are that. As many on the lists have said,

any stimulus anywhere on the body can have some effects.

 

Alon replied:

> Phil, ... if [we] can't do better than a monkey putting in needles

> why do we spend all this money on study? Just give a set of

> needles to anyone that knows some anatomy (just for safely) and let

> them stick. The only way is to compare sham needles to so-called

> active AP.

 

Alon, with respect, I disagree. The DESIGN of a research project

must reflect the main question or hypothesis to be addressed.

IMO, the main question today is: how do the costs and clinical

outcomes of expert acupuncture compare with those of expert

allopathy? That question has no need for sham points to be

included in the study.

 

> While i also have a hard time believing it's all just inserting

> needles when treating pain, as all these studies were on pain, my

> belief and personal FEELING is irrelevant.

 

Again, I disagree. Personal FEELING (empathy with the subject) is

VERY IMPORTANT in therapy. Are Thoresen has cited several

examples [with references] of the importance of Yi [intention/belief]

in AP. For example, in, " An important mechanism in Homeopathy

and Acupuncture and its implications in Veterinary Medicine " , he

cites Volker Scheid & Dan Bensky:

 

" In pre-Han China, Yì (intention) was considered a pre-requisite of

the knowledge and understanding required for and derived from the

divination practices based on the I-jing. " Yì is what the sages used

to search profundity and study the all encompassing. As it is

profound, it can penetrate throughout the purpose of the

subcelestial realm. As it is all encompassing, it can penetrate

throughout the affairs of the subcelestial realm. As it is divine, it is

fast but never hurries; it arrives but never travels " .

 

> I am worried when i hear we cannot do better than sham needles,

> and then try to make a case for other study methods. Alon

 

IMO, skilled acupuncturists can do much better than trained

monkeys or robots. IMO, love, intuition/intuition, knowledge,

empathy AND mysticism ALL are involved in optimum therapy.

Best regards,

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit

the groups' homepage:

Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

 

To send an email to

<Chinese Medicine- > from the email

account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

recieve messages for a few days.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

Research grant proposals are made for precisely this cause: CM vs. WM. All the

proposals that I've assisted with have been rejected by the funding sources:

N.I.H., Osher and others. Without economic support, it's hard to get the work

done. If it is reviewed and supported by agencies like N.I.H., then there is

also a chance that it will get published in peer-reviewed journals. It pretty

much starts with money for research. CM and WM are in entirely different

ballparks when it comes to research funding.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Friday, March 19, 2004 5:24 AM

Re: Is AP just a Placebo, or have some Acupoints specific

effects?

 

 

Sorry afterthought.

 

Most western research into new medicines is conducted against the

market leaders (competition medicine) as this forms a base line from

which result outcomes are compared. Why isn't this done in

acupuncture studies.

 

Attilio

 

" " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> That's actually quite interesting Phil. I take it that when you

> said " compare with those of expert allopathy " you were referring

to

> WM medicines rather than western docs 'trained' in acupuncture.

>

> Note that all research studies are undertaken against a sham form

of

> acupuncture or another form of control such as relaxation, rather

> than against market leaders in allopathic medicines, such as

> aspirin.

>

> Why is that?

>

> Attilio

>

>

> " " <@e...> wrote:

>

> > Alon, with respect, I disagree. The DESIGN of a research project

> > must reflect the main question or hypothesis to be addressed.

> > IMO, the main question today is: how do the costs and clinical

> > outcomes of expert acupuncture compare with those of expert

> > allopathy? That question has no need for sham points to be

> > included in the study.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio

 

> Hi Phil, I take it that when you said " compare with those of

> expert allopathy " you were referring to WM medicines rather than

> western docs 'trained' in acupuncture.

 

Yes. I meant to compare outcomes of AP versus outcomes of

currently used WM for the " same " clinical conditions.

 

> Note that all AP research studies are undertaken against a sham

> form of AP, or another form of control such as relaxation, rather

> than against market leaders in allopathic medicines, such as

> aspirin. Why is that? Attilio

 

Some would call it conspiracy (fear that the WMs would not be

better than AP). However, I doubt that conspiracy is the reason in

most cases.

 

IMO, it is simply bad research design: the researchers do not

address the key issue: i.e. how does " expert AP " compare with

" expert WM " .

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

Well if it's not based upon some kind of conspiracy then what is it

based upon?

 

Do you think that acupuncture needs to be tested individually with

the various aspects of safety, cost and efficacy before it's allowed

to be compared with an allopathic medication?

 

Or do you think that it's just too dangerous for the established

medical practice to have acupuncture jump straight in there. If

acupuncture was allowed to be tested against an allopathic market

best, and was found to be better at treating pain, look at the

percussions this may cause. It would make headline news, have

patients and doctors in a fuzz and patient's knocking at our doors.

They'll be calls for it on hospitals wards aswell as doctor

surgeries.

 

I think there is some element of conspiracy in the denial of

acupuncture comparison with allopathic medicine; otherwise I would

already have been done. Although, now that its safety and cost

effectiveness and to some extent its efficacy has been proved,

perhaps tests against allopathic medication is just around the

corner.

 

Attilio

 

 

" " <@e...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio

>

> > Hi Phil, I take it that when you said " compare with those of

> > expert allopathy " you were referring to WM medicines rather than

> > western docs 'trained' in acupuncture.

>

> Yes. I meant to compare outcomes of AP versus outcomes of

> currently used WM for the " same " clinical conditions.

>

> > Note that all AP research studies are undertaken against a sham

> > form of AP, or another form of control such as relaxation, rather

> > than against market leaders in allopathic medicines, such as

> > aspirin. Why is that? Attilio

>

> Some would call it conspiracy (fear that the WMs would not be

> better than AP). However, I doubt that conspiracy is the reason in

> most cases.

>

> IMO, it is simply bad research design: the researchers do not

> address the key issue: i.e. how does " expert AP " compare with

> " expert WM " .

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <@e...>

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4,

Ireland

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>

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