National Security Agency Whistleblower - U.S. is Decaying Into a “Police State”

[Guest guest]

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Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:05:24 -0500

National Security Agency Whistleblower - U.S. is Decaying

Into a " Police State "

 

 

 

 

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/03/1435201

 

 

Tuesday, January 3rd, 2006

National Security Agency Whistleblower Warns Domestic Spying Program

Is Sign the U.S. is Decaying Into a " Police State "

 

 

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Former NSA intelligence agent Russell Tice condemns reports that the

Agency has been engaged in eavesdropping on U.S. citizens without

court warrants. Tice has volunteered to testify before Congress about

illegal black ops programs at the NSA. Tice said, " The freedom of the

American people cannot be protected when our constitutional liberties

are ignored and our nation has decayed into a police state. " [includes

rush transcript]

 

 

We turn now to the growing controversy over President Bush's decision

to order the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on U.S. citizens

inside the country without the legally required court warrants. Bush's

decision was first revealed in the New York Times in mid-December. The

Times published the expose after holding the story for more than a

year under pressure from the White House. The paper reportedly first

uncovered the illegal order prior to the 2004 election. When the

editors at the Times decided last month to go ahead with the article,

President Bush personally summoned the paper's publisher, Arthur

Sulzberger, and executive editor, Bill Keller, to the Oval Office in

an attempt to talk them out of running the story. Since the story

broke, calls for Congressional hearings and the possible impeachment

of the president have intensified. Conservative legal experts have

even admitted Bush may have committed an impeachable offense by

ordering the NSA to break the law.

 

On Sunday, the New York Times revealed there was dissent within the

upper echelon of the Bush administration over the legality of the

president's order. According to the Times, Attorney General John

Ashcroft's top deputy, James Comey, refused to sign on to the

continuation of the secret program in 2004 amid concerns about its

legality and oversight. At the time, Comey was serving in place of

then Attorney General John Ashcroft while Ashcroft was hospitalized

for a medical condition. Comey's refusal prompted senior Presidential

aides Andrew Card and Alberto Gonzales to visit Ashcroft in his

hospital room to grant the approval. The Times reports Ashcroft

expressed reluctance to sign on to the program. It is unclear if he

eventually relented. Both Ashcroft and Comey's concerns appear to have

led to a temporary suspension of parts of the program for several

months. But the administration has repeatedly defended its actions.

 

* President Bush, speaking on Sunday:

" If somebody from al-Qaeda is calling you, we'd like to know

why. In the meantime, this program is conscious of people's civil

liberties as am I. This is is a limited program designed to prevent

attacks on the United States of America - and I repeat limited. It is

limited to calls from outside the United States to calls within the

United States. But, they are of known numbers of known al Qaeda

members or affiliates. I think most Americans understand the need to

find out what the enemy is thinking. And that's what we are doing.

We're at war with a bunch of cold blooded killers who will kill in a

moment's notice. I have a responsibility to act within the law which I

am doing. The program has been reviewed constantly by Justice

Department officials. A program to which the Congress has been

briefed. A program that is in my judgment necessary to win this war

and to protect the American people. "

 

Meanwhile, the Washington Post is reporting that the NSA passed on

records of intercepted email and phone calls to other government

agencies including the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the CIA

and the Department of Homeland Security. This news come on the heels

of several other reports that the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force,

military intelligence and local police departments have all been

engaged in monitoring peaceful groups including Greenpeace, PETA - the

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Catholic Worker, anti-war

groups and even bicyclists in New York City. During the 1960s and

1970s, the military used NSA intercepts to maintain files on U.S.

peace activists. It was this domestic surveillance that led Congress

to intervene and pass Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 in

order to prevent future such abuses. The statute permits domestic

intelligence surveillance with the approval of a court order from the

FISA court.

 

In 1975, Senator Frank Church, a Democrat from Idaho, said, " We have a

particular obligation to examine the NSA, in light of its tremendous

potential for abuse. . . . The interception of international

communications signals sent through the air is the job of NSA; and,

thanks to modern technological developments, it does its job very

well. The danger lies in the ability of the NSA to turn its awesome

technology against domestic communications. "

 

Now Congress is considering holding a new round of hearings on Bush's

domestic spying program. A bipartisan group series of Senators have

already issued their public support including several top Republicans

including Senator Dick Lugar of Indiana, Lindsey Graham of South

Carolina and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania.

 

Two weeks ago, a former NSA intelligence officer publicly announced

that he wants to testify before Congress. His name is Russell Tice.

For the past two decades he has worked in the intelligence field both

inside and outside government, most recently with the National

Security Agency and Defense Intelligence Agency. He was fired in May

2005 after he spoke out as a whistleblower.

 

In his letter, Tice wrote, " It is with my oath as a US intelligence

officer weighing heavy on my mind that I wish to report to Congress

acts that I believe are unlawful and unconstitutional. The freedom of

the American people cannot be protected when our constitutional

liberties are ignored and our nation has decayed into a police state. "

 

* Russell Tice, former intelligence agent at the National Security

Agency and Defense Intelligence Agency. He worked at the NSA up until

May 2005.

 

RUSH TRANSCRIPT

 

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AMY GOODMAN: This is President Bush speaking on Sunday.

 

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I can say that if somebody from

al-Qaeda is calling you, we'd like to know why. In the meantime, this

program is conscious of people's civil liberties, as am I. This is a

limited program designed to prevent attacks on the United States of

America. And I repeat: limited. And it's limited to calls from outside

the United States to calls within the United States. But, they are of

known numbers of known al Qaeda members or affiliates. And I think

most Americans understand the need to find out what the enemy is

thinking. And that's what we are doing. We're at war with a bunch of

cold-blooded killers who will kill on a moment's notice. And I have a

responsibility, obviously, to act within the law, which I am doing.

It's a program has been reviewed constantly by Justice Department

officials, a program to which the Congress has been briefed, and a

program that is in my judgment necessary to win this war and to

protect the American people.

 

AMY GOODMAN: That was President Bush speaking Sunday. Meanwhile, The

Washington Post is reporting the N.S.A. passed on records of

intercepted email and phone calls to other government agencies,

including the F.B.I., the Defense Intelligence Agency, the C.I.A. and

the Department of Homeland Security. This news comes on the heels of

several other reports that the F.B.I.'s Joint Terrorism Task Force,

military intelligence and local police departments have all been

engaged in monitoring peaceful groups, including Greenpeace, PETA (the

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), the Catholic Worker

antiwar groups, and even cyclists in New York City.

 

During the 1960s and 1970s, the military used N.S.A. intercepts to

maintain files on U.S. peace activists. It was this domestic

surveillance that led Congress to intervene and pass the Foreign

Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, in order to prevent future such

abuses. The statute permits domestic intelligence surveillance with

the approval of a court order from the FISA court.

 

In 1975, Senator Frank Church, a Democrat from Idaho, said, quote, " We

have a particular obligation to examine the N.S.A. in light of its

tremendous potential for abuse. The interception of international

communications signals sent through the air is the job of N.S.A., and

thanks to modern technological developments, it does its job very

well. The danger lies in the ability of the N.S.A. to turn its awesome

technology against domestic communications, " Church said.

 

Congress is now considering holding a new round of hearings on Bush's

domestic spying program. A bipartisan group of senators have already

issued their public support, including several top Republicans,

including Senator Dick Lugar of Indiana, Lindsey Graham of South

Carolina, and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania. This is Democratic

Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont.

 

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY: This warrant-less eavesdropping program is

not authorized by the PATRIOT Act, it's not authorized by any act of

Congress, and it's not overseen by any court. According to the reports

it's being conducted under a secret presidential order, based on

secret legal opinions by the same Justice Department, lawyers, the

same ones who argued secretly that the President could order the use

of torture. Mr. President, it is time to have some checks and balances

in this country. We are a democracy. We are a democracy. Let's have

checks and balances, not secret orders and secret courts and secret

torture, and on and on.

 

AMY GOODMAN: That was Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy. Two weeks ago, a

former N.S.A. intelligence officer publicly announced he wants to

testify before Congress. His name is Russell Tice. For the past two

decades he has worked in the intelligence field, both inside and

outside of government, most recently with the National Security Agency

and the Defense Intelligence Agency. He was fired in May 2005, after

he spoke out as a whistleblower.

 

In his letter, Tice wrote, quote, " It's with my oath as a U.S.

intelligence officer weighing heavy on my mind that I wish to report

to Congress acts I believe are unlawful and unconstitutional. The

freedom of the American people cannot be protected when our

constitutional liberties are ignored and our nation has decayed into a

police state. "

 

Russell Tice joins us now in our Washington studio. Welcome to

Democracy Now!

 

RUSSELL TICE: Good morning.

 

AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you with us.

 

RUSSELL TICE: Thank you.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What made you decide to come forward? You worked for the

top-secret agency of this government, one that is far larger and even

more secret than the C.I.A.

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, the main reason is, you know, I'm involved with

some certain aspects of the intelligence community, which are very

closely held, and I believe I have seen some things that are illegal.

Ultimately it's Congress's responsibility to conduct oversight in

these things. I don't see it happening. Another reason is there was a

certain roadblock that was sort of lifted that allowed me to do this,

and I can't explain, but I will to Congress if allowed to.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the letter you have written to

Congress, your request to testify?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, it's just a simple request under the Intelligence

Community Whistleblower Protection Act, which is a legal means to

contact Congress and tell them that you believe that something has

gone wrong in the intelligence community.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Can you start off by talking overall? Since most people

until recently, until this latest story of President Bush engaging in

these wiretaps of American citizens, as well as foreign nationals in

this country, perhaps hadn't even heard of the N.S.A., can you just

describe for us what is the National Security Agency? How does it

monitor these communications?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, the National Security Agency is an agency that

deals with monitoring communications for the defense of the country.

The charter basically says that the N.S.A. will deal with

communications of -- overseas. We're not allowed to go after

Americans, and I think ultimately that's what the big fuss is now. But

as far as the details of how N.S.A. does that, unfortunately, I'm not

at liberty to say that. I don't want to walk out of here and end up in

an F.B.I. interrogation room.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Russell Tice, you have worked for the National Security

Agency. Can you talk about your response to the revelations that the

Times, you know, revealed in -- perhaps late, knowing the story well

before the election, yet revealing it a few weeks ago -- the

revelation of the wiretapping of American citizens?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, as far as an intelligence officer, especially a

SIGINT officer at N.S.A., we're taught from very early on in our

careers that you just do not do this. This is probably the number one

commandment of the SIGINT Ten Commandments as a SIGINT officer. You

will not spy on Americans. It is drilled into our head over and over

and over again in security briefings, at least twice a year, where you

ultimately have to sign a paper that says you have gotten the

briefing. Everyone at N.S.A. who's a SIGINT officer knows that you do

not do this. Ultimately, so do the leaders of N.S.A., and apparently

the leaders of N.S.A. have decided that they were just going to go

against the tenets of something that's a gospel to a SIGINT officer.

 

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Russell Tice. We will go to break and

come back to him. He's a former intelligence agent with the National

Security Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency, worked at the

N.S.A. up until May of this past year, May of 2005.

 

[break]

 

AMY GOODMAN: We talk to Russell Tice, former intelligence agent with

the National Security Agency, formerly with the Defense Intelligence

Agency, worked with the N.S.A. up until May 2005. Russell Tice, what

happened then? What happened in May 2005?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, basically I was given my walking papers and told I

was no longer a federal employee. So --

 

AMY GOODMAN: Why?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Some time ago I had some concerns about a co-worker at

D.I.A. who exhibited the classic signs of being involved in espionage,

and I reported that and basically got blown off by the

counterintelligence office at D.I.A. and kind of pushed the issue,

because I continued to see a pattern of there being a problem. And

once I got back to N.S.A., I pretty much dropped the issue, but there

was a report that came across my desk in April of 2003 about two

F.B.I. agents that were possibly passing secret counterintelligence

information to a Chinese double agent, Katrina Leung, and I sent a

secure message back to the D.I.A. counterintelligence officer, and I

said I think the F.B.I. is incompetent, and the retaliation came down

on me like a ton of bricks.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What would you say to those who say you are speaking out

now simply because you are disgruntled?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, I guess that's a valid argument. You know, I was

fired. But, you know, I've kind of held my tongue for a long time now,

and basically, you know, I have known these things have been going on

for a while. The classification level of the stuff I deal with,

basically what we call black world programs and operations, are very,

very closely held. And you know, whether you think this is retaliation

or not, I have something important to tell Congress, and I think they

need to hear it. I'd like to think my motives aren't retaliation, but,

you know, after what I have been through, I can understand someone's

argument to think I have been jaded.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What about the risks you take as a whistleblower? I

wanted to play a clip of F.B.I. whistleblower, Sibel Edmonds. She was

working for the F.B.I. after 9/11 as a translator, translating

intercepts, and ultimately she lost her job. And I asked her if she

was afraid of speaking out.

 

SIBEL EDMONDS: There are times that I am afraid, but then again,

I have to remind myself that this is my civic duty and this is for the

country, because what they are doing by pushing this stuff under this

blanket of secrecy, what they are hiding is against the public's

welfare and interest. And reminding that to myself just helps me, to a

certain degree, overcome that fear.

 

AMY GOODMAN: That was Sibel Edmonds. Russell Tice, you are a member of

her group, the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition.

 

RUSSELL TICE: That, I am. National Security Whistleblower Coalition is

basically put together of people who are in sort of the same boat that

I am in, that have brought whistleblower concerns to the public or to

their perspective chain of supervisors and have been retaliated

against. And the intelligence community, all of the whistleblower

protection laws are -- pretty much exempt the intelligence community.

So the intelligence community can put forth their lip service about,

`Oh, yeah, we want you to put report waste fraud abuse,' or `You shall

report suspicions of espionage,' but when they retaliate you for doing

so, you pretty much have no recourse. I think a lot of people don't

realize that.

 

And Sibel has basically started this organization to bring these sort

of concerns out into the public and ultimately to get Congress to

start passing some laws to protect folks that are going to be in a

position to let the public or just, you know, to let Congress know

that crimes are being committed. And that's what we're talking about.

We're talking about a crime here. So, you know, all of this running

around and looking for someone who dropped the dime on a crime is a

whole lot different than something like the Valerie Plame case.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think of the Justice Department launching an

investigation into the leak, who leaked the fact that President Bush

was spying on American citizens?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, I think this is an attempt to make sure that no

intelligence officer ever considers doing this. What was done to me

was basically an attempt to tell other intelligence officers, `Hey, if

you do something like this, if you do something to tick us off, we're

going to take your job from you, we're gonna do some unpleasant things

to you.'

 

So, right now, the atmosphere at N.S.A. and D.I.A., for that matter,

is fear. The security services basically rule over the employees with

fear, and people are afraid to come forward. People know if they come

forward even in the legal means, like coming to Congress with a

concern, your career is over. And that's just the best scenario.

There's all sorts of other unfortunate things like, perhaps, if

someone gets thrown in jail for either a witch-hunt or something

trumping up charges or, you know, this guy who is basically reporting

a crime.

 

AMY GOODMAN: And what do you think of the news that the National

Security Agency spying on American citizens without a court order and

foreign nationals is now sharing this information with other agencies

like, well, the other agency you worked for, the Defense Intelligence

Agency?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Intelligence officers work with one another all the

time. As an analyst, you might have a problem. Everybody gets

together. It's just common sense to find out what everybody knows, you

know, come to a consensus as to what the answer is. It's sort of like

a puzzle, you know, chunks of the puzzle. And maybe you have a few

chunks as a SIGINT officer, and the C.I.A. has a few chunks in their

arena and D.I.A. has a few elements of it, and everybody gets together

and does a little mind meld to try to figure out what's going on. So

it's not unusual for the intelligence community to share information.

But when we're talking about information on the American public, which

is a violation of the FISA law, then I think it's even something more

to be concerned about.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Were you ever asked to engage in this?

 

RUSSELL TICE: No, no, and if I did so, I did so unwittingly, which I

have a feeling would be the case for many of the people involved in

this. More than likely this was very closely held at the upper

echelons at N.S.A., and mainly because these people knew -- General

Hayden, Bill Black, and probably the new one, Keith Alexander, they

all knew this was illegal. So, you know, they kept it from the

populace of N.S.A., because every N.S.A. officer certainly knows this

is illegal.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean if you did so, you did so unwittingly?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, there are certain elements of the aspects of what

is done where there are functionaries or technicians or analysts that

are given information, and you just process that information. You

don't necessarily know the nitty gritty as to where the information

came from or the -- it's called compartmentalization. It's ironic, but

you could be working on programs, and the very person sitting next to

you is not cleared for the programs you're working on, and they're

working on their own programs, and each person knows to keep their

nose out of the other person's business, because everything's

compartmentalized, and you're only allowed to work on what you have a

need to know to work on.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What about the telecoms, the telecommunications

corporations working with the Bush administration to open up a back

door to eavesdropping, to wiretapping?

 

RUSSELL TICE: If that was done and, you know, I use a big " if " here,

and, remember, I can't tell you what I know of how N.S.A. does its

business, but I can use the wiggle words like " if " and scenarios that

don't incorporate specifics, but nonetheless, if U.S. gateways and

junction points in the United States were used to siphon off

information, I would think that the corporate executives of these

companies need to be held accountable, as well, because they would

certainly also know that what they're doing is wrong and illegal. And

if they have some sort of court order or some sort of paper or

something signed from some government official, Congress needs to look

at those papers and look at the bottom line and see whose signature is

there. And these corporations know that this is illegal, as well. So

everyone needs to be held accountable in this mess.

 

AMY GOODMAN: When you come on board at these intelligence agencies, as

at the National Security Agency, what are you told? I mean, were you

aware of the Church hearings in the 1970s that went into the illegal

spying on monitoring, of surveilling, of wiretapping of American citizens?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, that's something that's really not drummed in your

head. That's more of a history lesson, I think. And the reasoning,

ultimately, for the FISA laws and for what's called USSID 18, which is

sort of the SIGINTer's bible of how they conduct their business, but

the law itself is drilled into your head, as well as the tenets of

USSID 18, of which the number one commandment is `Thou shalt not spy

on Americans.'

 

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Russell Tice, former intelligence agent

with the National Security Agency, worked at the N.S.A. up until May

of 2005. What is data mining?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Data mining is a means by which you -- you have

information, and you go searching for all associated elements of that

information in whatever sort of data banks or databases that you put

together with information. So if you have a phone number and you want

to associate it with, say, a terrorist or something, and you want to

associate it with, you know, `Who is this terrorist talking to?' you

start doing data on what sort of information or what sort of numbers

does that person call or the frequency of time, that sort of thing.

And you start basically putting together a bubble chart of, you know,

where everybody is.

 

Lord help you if you've got a wrong phone call from one of these guys,

a terrorist overseas or something, and you're American. You're liable

to have the F.B.I. camping out your doorstep, apparently, from

everything that's going on. But it's basically a way of searching all

of the data that exists, and that's things like credit card records

and driver's license, anything that you can get your hands on and try

to associate it with some activity. I think if we were doing that

overseas with known information, it would be a good thing if we're

pinning them down. But ultimately, when we're using that on -- if

we're using that with U.S. databases, then ultimately, once again, the

American people are -- their civil rights are being violated.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Do you expect you are being monitored, surveilled,

wiretapped right now?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, in – you know, sometimes

you just don't know. And being, you know -- what they've basically

accused me of, I can't just walk around thinking that everybody is

looking at my heels and are following me around. But in one scenario I

turned the tables on someone I thought was following me, and he ducked

into a convenience store, and I just walked down there -- and I saw

him out of my peripheral vision -- and I basically walked down to

where he ducked into and in the store, I walked up behind him. He was

buying a cup of coffee, and he had a Glock on his hip and his F.B.I.

badge. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what

was going on there.

 

AMY GOODMAN: The National Security Agency, or I should say the United

Nations Security Council, there was a scandal a year or two ago about

the monitoring of the diplomats there. It was in the lead up to the

invasion, the U.S. wanting to know and put pressure on these Security

Council ambassadors to know what they were saying before any kind of

vote. What is the difference between that kind of monitoring and the

monitoring of American citizens?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, if the monitoring was done against foreigners and

the monitoring was done overseas, as far as I know, that's perfectly

legal. It's just a matter of who you are monitoring and where you're

doing the monitoring. If it's done at home and they're Americans, then

you have a different scenario.

 

And we're all trained that, you know, hands off. If you inadvertently

run across something like that in the conduct of what you're doing,

you immediately let someone know; if it's involved in something being

recorded, it's immediately erased. So, you know, it's something that

we all know you just don't do. Overseas, okay; here at home, not so okay.

 

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to play for you the clip that we ran of

President Bush earlier and get your response. This is President Bush

on Sunday.

 

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I can say that if somebody from

al-Qaeda is calling you, we'd like to know why. In the meantime, this

program is conscious of people's civil liberties, as am I. This is a

limited program designed to prevent attacks on the United States of

America. And I repeat: limited. And it's limited to calls from outside

the United States to calls within the United States. But, they are of

known numbers of known al Qaeda members or affiliates. And I think

most Americans understand the need to find out what the enemy is

thinking. And that's what we are doing. We're at war with a bunch of

cold-blooded killers who will kill on a moment's notice. And I have a

responsibility, obviously, to act within the law, which I am doing.

It's a program has been reviewed constantly by Justice Department

officials, a program to which the Congress has been briefed, and a

program that is in my judgment necessary to win this war and to

protect the American people.

 

AMY GOODMAN: President Bush. Russell Tice, you're with the National

Security Agency, or you were until May 2005. If al-Qaeda's calling,

the U.S. government wants to know. Your response?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, that's probably a good thing to know. But that's

why we have a FISA court and FISA laws. The FISA court – it's not very

difficult to get something through a FISA court. I kinda liken the

FISA court to a monkey with a rubber stamp. The monkey sees a name,

the monkey sees a word justification with a block of information. It

can't read the block, but it just stamps " affirmed " on the block, and

a banana chip rolls out, and then the next paper rolls in front of the

monkey. When you have like 20,000 requests and only, I think, four

were turned down, you can't look at the FISA court as anything different.

 

So, you have to ask yourself the question: Why would someone want to

go around the FISA court in something like this? I would think the

answer could be that this thing is a lot bigger than even the

President has been told it is, and that ultimately a vacuum cleaner

approach may have been used, in which case you don't get names, and

that's ultimately why you wouldn't go to the FISA court. And I think

that's something Congress needs to address. They need to find out

exactly how this system was operated and ultimately determine whether

this was indeed a very focused effort or whether this was a vacuum

cleaner-type scenario.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Did you support the President, Russell Tice? Did you vote

for President Bush?

 

RUSSELL TICE: I am a Republican. I voted for President Bush both in

the last election and the first election where he was up for

president. I've contributed to his campaign. I get a post -- I mean, a

Christmas card from the White House every year, I guess, because of my

nominal contributions. But – so, you know, it's not like, you know --

I think you're going to find a lot of folks that are in the Department

of Defense and the intelligence community are apt to be on the

conservative side of the fence. But nonetheless, we're all taught that

you don't do something like this. And I'm certainly hoping that the

President has been misled in what's going on here and that the true

crux of this problem is in the leadership of the intelligence community.

 

AMY GOODMAN: You're saying in the leadership of your own agency, the

National Security Agency?

 

RUSSELL TICE: That's correct, yeah, because certainly General

Alexander and General Hayden and Bill Black knew that this was illegal.

 

AMY GOODMAN: But they clearly had to have authorization from above,

and Bush is not contending that he did not know.

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, that's true. But the question has to be asked:

What did the President know? What was the President told about this?

It's just -- there's just too many variables out there that we don't

know yet. And, ultimately, I think Congress needs to find out those

answers. If the President was fed a bill of goods in this matter, then

that's something that has to be addressed. Or if the President himself

knew every aspect of what's going on, if this was some sort of vacuum

cleaner deal, then it is ultimately, I would think, the President

himself that needs to be held responsible for what's going on here.

 

AMY GOODMAN: And what do you think should happen to him?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, you know, it's certainly not up to me, but I've

heard all of the talk about impeachment and that sort of thing. You

know, I saw our last president get impeached for what personally I

thought should have been something between his wife and his family,

and the big guy upstairs. It's not up to me, but if the President

knew, if this was a vacuum cleaner job and the President knew exactly

what was going on -- and ultimately what we're hearing now is nothing

but a cover-up and a whitewash -- and we find that to be the case,

then I think it should cause some dire consequences for even the

President of the United States, if he indeed did know exactly what was

going on and if it was a very large-scale, you know,

suck-up-everything kind of operation.

 

AMY GOODMAN: This investigation that the Justice Department has

launched – it's interesting that Alberto Gonzales is now Attorney

General of the United States – the latest story of The New York Times:

Gonzales, when he was White House Counsel, when Andrew Card, chief of

staff, went to Ashcroft at his hospital bedside to get authorization

for this. Can he be a disinterested party in investigating this now,

as Attorney General himself?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Yeah, I think that for anyone to say that the Attorney

General is going to be totally unbiased about something like this, I

think that's silly. Of course, the answer is " No. " He can't be

unbiased in this. I think that a special prosecutor or something like

that may have to be involved in something like this, otherwise we're

just liable to have a whitewash.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think of the term " police state " ?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, anytime where you have a situation where U.S.

citizens are being arrested and thrown in jail with the key being

thrown away, you know, potentially being sent overseas to be tortured,

U.S. citizens being spied on, you know, and it doesn't even go to the

court that deals with these secret things, you know, I mean, think

about it, you could have potentially somebody getting the wrong phone

call from a terrorist and having him spirited away to some back-alley

country to get the rubber hose treatment and who knows what else. I

think that would kind of qualify as a police state, in my judgment.

 

I certainly hope that Congress or somebody sort of does something

about this, because, you know, for Americans just to say, `Oh, well,

we have to do this because, you know, because of terrorism,' you know,

it's the same argument that we used with communism years ago: take

away your civil liberties, but use some threat that's, you know, been

out there for a long time.

 

Terrorism has been there for -- certainly before 9/11 we had terrorism

problems, and I have a feeling it's going to be around for quite some

time after whatever we deem is a victory in what we're doing now in

the Middle East. But, you know, it's just something that has to be

addressed. We just can't continue to see our civil liberties degraded.

Ultimately, as Ben Franklin, I think, had said, you know, those who

would give up their essential liberties for a little freedom deserve

neither liberty or freedom, and I tend to agree with Ben Franklin.

 

AMY GOODMAN: And your colleagues at the N.S.A. right now, their

feelings, the National Security Agency?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Boy, I think most folks at N.S.A. right now are just

running scared. They have the security office hanging over their head,

which has always been a bunch of vicious folks, and now they've got,

you know, this potential witch hunt going on with the Attorney

General. People in the intelligence community are afraid. They know

that you can't come forward. You have no protections as a

whistleblower. These things need to be addressed.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean you have no protection?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, like I said before, as a whistleblower, you're not

protected by the whistleblower laws that are out there. The

intelligence community is exempt from the whistleblower protection laws.

 

AMY GOODMAN: So why are you doing it?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, ultimately, I don't have to be afraid of losing my

job, because I have already lost my job, so that's one reason. The

other reason is because I made an oath when I became an intelligence

officer that I would protect the United States Constitution, not a

president, not some classification, you know, for whatever, that

ultimately I'm responsible to protect the Constitution of the United

States. And I think that's the same oath the President takes, for the

most part.

 

So, something like -- imagine if something -- if we were like, I don't

know, taking Americans and assassinating them for suspicions of

suspicions of terrorism, and then we just put some classification on

it and said, `Well, this is super top secret, so no one can say

anything about that.' Well, at what point do you draw the line and say

enough is enough. We have to say something here.

 

AMY GOODMAN: What was your classification? How high up was your clearance?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, clearances go up to the top secret level. But once

you get to the top secret level, there are many caveats and many

programs and things that can happen beyond that point. I specialized

in what's known as black world operations and programs that are very

closely held, things that happen in operations and programs in the

intelligence community that are closely held, and for the most part

these programs are very beneficial to ultimately getting information

and protecting the American people. But in some cases, I think,

classification levels at these special -- we call them special access

programs, SAPs -- could be used to mask, basically, criminal

wrongdoing. So I think that's something ultimately Congress needs to

address, as well, because from what I can see, there is not a whole

lot of oversight when it comes to some of these deep black programs.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Russell Tice, did you know anyone within the N.S.A. who

refused to spy on Americans, who refused to follow orders?

 

RUSSELL TICE: No. No, I do not. As far as -- of course, I'm not

witting of anyone that was told they will spy on an American. So,

ultimately, when this was going on, I have a feeling it was closely

held at some of the upper echelon levels. And you've got to

understand, I was a worker bee. I was a guy that wrote the reports and

did the analysis work and -- you know, the detail guy. At some point,

your reports have to get sent up up the line and then, you know, the

management takes action at some point or another, but at my level, no,

I was not involved in this.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Has Congress responded to your letter offering to testify

as a former employee of the National Security Agency?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Not yet. Of course, the holidays – you know, we just had

the holidays here, so everybody is out of town. I can't condemn

Congress too much yet, because I faxed it out on, I do believe, the

18th of December, and we're just getting into the new year.

 

AMY GOODMAN: And who did you send it to?

 

RUSSELL TICE: I sent it to the chairs of the Senate Intelligence

Committee and the House Intelligence Committee, the SSCI and the HPSCI.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for being with us. Is

there anything else that you would like to add?

 

RUSSELL TICE: Well, I can't think of a whole lot, except ultimately I

think the American people need to be concerned about allegations that

the intelligence community is spying on Americans. You know, one of my

fears is that this would cause, just going into the N.S.A. and just

tearing the place up and making the good work that's being done at the

N.S.A. ineffective, because the N.S.A. is very important to this

country's security. And I certainly hope that some bad apples, even if

these bad apples were at the top of N.S.A., don't ultimately destroy

the capabilities of N.S.A.'s ability to do a good job protecting the

American people.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Russell Tice, former intelligence agent with the National

Security Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency, worked for the

N.S.A. up until May of last year. Thanks for joining us.

 

RUSSELL TICE: Thank you.

 

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