Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I'm pulling this in from another board, and my intention is to purposely fire up a discussion about this issue, because it concerns me greatly. A rather famous person on this other board, who has a well established, long-standing alternative cancer clinic in Southern California near the border with Tijuana, is saying that when he sees patients that have sudden and unexplained metastatis occurring, it is almost always due to a high intake of protylectic enzymes (I am assuming pancreatic enzymes). In a most recent post, he says that only about 5% of his new patients take high doses of enzymes, yet these 5% account for 50% of his patients with sudden explosive metastatis occurring. He also claims that he could not find a single documented case of a cure by Kelley or Gonzales, the two most famous people who have promoted pancreatic enzymes in the past. He considers them frauds. This is very disturbing and surprising to me. I just started taking large doses of Univase Forte, which is the most potent pancreatic enzyme I can find. Am I setting the stage for my own rapid death? This issue REALLY needs to be thoroughly discussed! We MUST be aware of alternative cures that might be worthless or bad. E.g., Tony himself thinks that Italian baking soda doctor is a fraud, and I agree. Does this also apply to Kelley and Gonzales and pancreatic enzymes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Our experience so far is that they are safe. 3 in the family are using them. We've gone through about 10 bottles that contain trypsin & chimotrypsin (sp?) Before that we were on enzymes without these 2 ingredients, for years.If they caused such explosive and obvious metastases, I'm sure the FDA & the rest of the alphabet soup sickness agencies would have clamped down on them with great fanfare about the dangers of fake "natural" cancer cures. This well-established clinic - what are its success/failure statistics like?Best wishes,Mara--- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 wrote:jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soup Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 7:29 AM I'm pulling this in from another board, and my intention is to purposely fire up a discussion about this issue, because it concerns me greatly. A rather famous person on this other board, who has a well established, long-standing alternative cancer clinic in Southern California near the border with Tijuana, is saying that when he sees patients that have sudden and unexplained metastatis occurring, it is almost always due to a high intake of protylectic enzymes (I am assuming pancreatic enzymes). In a most recent post, he says that only about 5% of his new patients take high doses of enzymes, yet these 5% account for 50% of his patients with sudden explosive metastatis occurring. He also claims that he could not find a single documented case of a cure by Kelley or Gonzales, the two most famous people who have promoted pancreatic enzymes in the past. He considers them frauds. This is very disturbing and surprising to me. I just started taking large doses of Univase Forte, which is the most potent pancreatic enzyme I can find. Am I setting the stage for my own rapid death? This issue REALLY needs to be thoroughly discussed! We MUST be aware of alternative cures that might be worthless or bad. E.g., Tony himself thinks that Italian baking soda doctor is a fraud, and I agree. Does this also apply to Kelley and Gonzales and pancreatic enzymes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Yes, it must be figured out. I had been doing reading about Dr. Rath's theories about not breaking down the collagen matrix which would then inhibit metastases and prohibit spread of cancer (using Lysine and Proline to inhibit the breakdown.) It occurred to me that it seems that the pancreatic enzymes might be contraindicated. Coincidentally, I have e-mailed to ask him if the two approaches would conflict -- not breaking down to inhibit cancer cell establishment, or breaking down (i.e., the pancreatic enzymes dissolving materials supposedly to dissolve proteins -- would they dissolve the collagen? I await a response. I hope someone on this board has knowledge as well. I also have just started giving my husband pancreatic enzymes, but had been giving him lysine supplements in the hopes of keeping the cancer from traveling and establishing elsewhere.--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Maracuja <howdurdago wrote: Maracuja <howdurdagoRe: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soup Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 8:01 AM Our experience so far is that they are safe. 3 in the family are using them. We've gone through about 10 bottles that contain trypsin & chimotrypsin (sp?) Before that we were on enzymes without these 2 ingredients, for years.If they caused such explosive and obvious metastases, I'm sure the FDA & the rest of the alphabet soup sickness agencies would have clamped down on them with great fanfare about the dangers of fake "natural" cancer cures. This well-established clinic - what are its success/failure statistics like?Best wishes,Mara--- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ > wrote: jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ > Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soupFriday, April 3, 2009, 7:29 AM I'm pulling this in from another board, and my intention is to purposely fire up a discussion about this issue, because it concerns me greatly.A rather famous person on this other board, who has a well established, long-standing alternative cancer clinic in Southern California near the border with Tijuana, is saying that when he sees patients that have sudden and unexplained metastatis occurring, it is almost always due to a high intake of protylectic enzymes (I am assuming pancreatic enzymes). In a most recent post, he says that only about 5% of his new patients take high doses of enzymes, yet these 5% account for 50% of his patients with sudden explosive metastatis occurring. He also claims that he could not find a single documented case of a cure by Kelley or Gonzales, the two most famous people who have promoted pancreatic enzymes in the past. He considers them frauds.This is very disturbing and surprising to me. I just started taking large doses of Univase Forte, which is the most potent pancreatic enzyme I can find. Am I setting the stage for my own rapid death?This issue REALLY needs to be thoroughly discussed! We MUST be aware of alternative cures that might be worthless or bad. E.g., Tony himself thinks that Italian baking soda doctor is a fraud, and I agree. Does this also apply to Kelley and Gonzales and pancreatic enzymes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Good points -- I've been taking lycene and proline (via whey isolate), green tea extract, and vitamin C all at the same time to try to inhibit angiogenesis. Am I destroying all this with the porcine enzymes? oleander soup , Lisa Tovar <tov_legsec wrote: > > Yes, it must be figured out. I had been doing reading about Dr. Rath's theories about not breaking down the collagen matrix which would then inhibit metastases and prohibit spread of cancer (using Lysine and Proline to inhibit the breakdown.) It occurred to me that it seems that the pancreatic enzymes might be contraindicated. Coincidentally, I have e-mailed to ask him if the two approaches would conflict -- not breaking down to inhibit cancer cell establishment, or breaking down (i.e., the pancreatic enzymes dissolving materials supposedly to dissolve proteins -- would they dissolve the collagen? I await a response. I hope someone on this board has knowledge as well. I also have just started giving my husband pancreatic enzymes, but had been giving him lysine supplements in the hopes of keeping the cancer from traveling and establishing elsewhere. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I sent you an email regarding who this person is. He's well known over on the " cancercured " board. I think Mike knows him too. From all I can tell, he seems like a very serious researcher in the whole CAM field. I did just post a message on that board requesting exactly the information you asked for below. Believe me: in NO WAY is it my intention to start some sort of battle about this issue. But when one person makes the claim that he's seen many people get a lot worse very quickly when taking a very well known and famous CAM approach, it worries me a lot, ESPECIALLY when I've just started that approach myself! I tend to get emotional when my life may be on the line. I will do my best to become " Mr. Spock " on this issue (or perhaps Joe Friday) and just look at whatever facts I can dig up. oleander soup , " Tony " wrote: > > > It would be helpful to know who this famous person is and what type of > alternative protocol they recommend in order to comment intelligently. > It would also be helpful to know the actual numbers he is talking about > to get those figures - they might or might not be statisically > insignificant. Likewise it would be helpful to know what proteolytic > enzymes his patients took and whether they included chymotripsin. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Chymotrypsin is a fat breakdown enzyme. Pancreatin is the chief proteolytic enzyme produced by the pancreas. Even more than this is to be considered the hydrochloric acid secreation in the stomach. If you are going to rapidly digest proteins, this strong stomach acid has a huge effect of doing just that, but the stomach does not get digested.When the food leaves the stomach and enters the duodenum, the acid is supposed to be neutralized at that point by other enzymes. When this doesn't work correctly, the acid bolus passing through the intestines causes irritation. The digestive system itself is the system most affected by levels of enzymes.I must go back to the general thoughts about what makes the body weakened to have a cancer. These are hypoxia, insufficient iodine levels in the body, weakened immune system, exposure to carcinogens (a digestive enzyme the body makes is not a carcinogen), cigarette smoking, lack of physical activity, cardiopulmonary problems, extreme fatigue, and probably most importanty improper nutrition (a white, tan, and brown diet will kill you at an early age). I've never seen someone OD on lipase or other enzymes. I have taken 20 grams of proteolytic enzymes at once to digest the effects of acute inflammation, with absolutely no problems.Michael, L. Goebel, DC, ACN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I guess I'll weigh in at this point.....Ironically, Jim, taking things that inhibit angiogenesis could, theoretically drive metastasis. This has been noted with some of the antiangiogenesis pharmaceuticals. Metastasis is not an accident. It is not about a chunk of tumor breaking off and migrating elsewhere like the calving of an iceberg from an ice shelf, due solely to mechanical forces. It is an active process that is physiologically based. When a tumor outgrows its blood supply, which is something that happens quite readily, it experiences selection pressures which can result in a series of adaptive responses. One of these responses is similar to the Irish leaving the "Old Sod" during a potato famine. My family "metastasized" to the States that way. In a tumor the cells that don't evolve this escape mechanism might not survive. This is why you can get spontaneous tumor necrosis. Cells that do evolve this mechanism have a chance in the "new world". Cutting the blood supply to a tumor via chemical intervention can select for cells that metastasize. Does pancreatic, or otherwise proteolytic, enzyme supplementation contribute to metastasis? Well...maybe, but it's unlikely it could do it by simply breaking the cells loose by dissolving proteinaceous anchors.. It would have to be more complicated that that. I don't think we have the data to answer this question. Are we supposed to abandon antiangeogenesis approaches and enzymatic treatments? It seems to me that nearly everything is a "two edged sword". For every benefit there is a detriment. "One man's meat is another man's poison", etc. If an anticancer regimen is comprehensive; encouraging immune stimulous, involving targeted cytotoxic elements, encouraging healthy terrain, promoting a sense of well-being, incorporating redundant backup systems......then I think that enzymes and antiangiogenesis have their place even if there is a statistical risk when they are considered individually. Mike--- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 wrote: jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soup Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 4:00 PM Good points -- I've been taking lycene and proline (via whey isolate), green tea extract, and vitamin C all at the same time to try to inhibit angiogenesis. Am I destroying all this with the porcine enzymes?oleander soup, Lisa Tovar <tov_legsec@ ...> wrote:>> Yes, it must be figured out. I had been doing reading about Dr. Rath's theories about not breaking down the collagen matrix which would then inhibit metastases and prohibit spread of cancer (using Lysine and Proline to inhibit the breakdown.) It occurred to me that it seems that the pancreatic enzymes might be contraindicated. Coincidentally, I have e-mailed to ask him if the two approaches would conflict -- not breaking down to inhibit cancer cell establishment, or breaking down (i.e., the pancreatic enzymes dissolving materials supposedly to dissolve proteins -- would they dissolve the collagen? I await a response. I hope someone on this board has knowledge as well. I also have just started giving my husband pancreatic enzymes, but had been giving him lysine supplements in the hopes of keeping the cancer from traveling and establishing elsewhere.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 This is similar to what has been observed with Avastin therapy, particularly with brain tumors. The Avastin seems to do great at shrinking the tumor initially but then the cells migrate and set up shop elsewhere.--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Mike Golden <goldenmike86 wrote: Mike Golden <goldenmike86Re: Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soup Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:41 AM I guess I'll weigh in at this point.....Ironicall y, Jim, taking things that inhibit angiogenesis could, theoretically drive metastasis. This has been noted with some of the antiangiogenesis pharmaceuticals. Metastasis is not an accident. It is not about a chunk of tumor breaking off and migrating elsewhere like the calving of an iceberg from an ice shelf, due solely to mechanical forces. It is an active process that is physiologically based. When a tumor outgrows its blood supply, which is something that happens quite readily, it experiences selection pressures which can result in a series of adaptive responses. One of these responses is similar to the Irish leaving the "Old Sod" during a potato famine. My family "metastasized" to the States that way. In a tumor the cells that don't evolve this escape mechanism might not survive. This is why you can get spontaneous tumor necrosis. Cells that do evolve this mechanism have a chance in the "new world". Cutting the blood supply to a tumor via chemical intervention can select for cells that metastasize. Does pancreatic, or otherwise proteolytic, enzyme supplementation contribute to metastasis? Well...maybe, but it's unlikely it could do it by simply breaking the cells loose by dissolving proteinaceous anchors.. It would have to be more complicated that that. I don't think we have the data to answer this question. Are we supposed to abandon antiangeogenesis approaches and enzymatic treatments? It seems to me that nearly everything is a "two edged sword". For every benefit there is a detriment. "One man's meat is another man's poison", etc. If an anticancer regimen is comprehensive; encouraging immune stimulous, involving targeted cytotoxic elements, encouraging healthy terrain, promoting a sense of well-being, incorporating redundant backup systems..... .then I think that enzymes and antiangiogenesis have their place even if there is a statistical risk when they are considered individually. Mike--- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ > wrote: jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ > Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soupFriday, April 3, 2009, 4:00 PM Good points -- I've been taking lycene and proline (via whey isolate), green tea extract, and vitamin C all at the same time to try to inhibit angiogenesis. Am I destroying all this with the porcine enzymes?oleander soup, Lisa Tovar <tov_legsec@ ...> wrote:>> Yes, it must be figured out. I had been doing reading about Dr. Rath's theories about not breaking down the collagen matrix which would then inhibit metastases and prohibit spread of cancer (using Lysine and Proline to inhibit the breakdown.) It occurred to me that it seems that the pancreatic enzymes might be contraindicated. Coincidentally, I have e-mailed to ask him if the two approaches would conflict -- not breaking down to inhibit cancer cell establishment, or breaking down (i.e., the pancreatic enzymes dissolving materials supposedly to dissolve proteins -- would they dissolve the collagen? I await a response. I hope someone on this board has knowledge as well. I also have just started giving my husband pancreatic enzymes, but had been giving him lysine supplements in the hopes of keeping the cancer from traveling and establishing elsewhere.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 No, Mike, you missed the point of the discussion, although your response is great on another issue. The issue is whether pancreatic enzymes cause metastasis, not whether Rath's anti-angiogenesis protocol (or any antigenesis protocol, including Avistan) causes metastasis. Our friend VG is claiming, from his experience, that pancreatic enzymes (or more generically, proteolyctic enzymes) can cause cancer to suddenly explode in metastasis. He further claims that Kelley and Gonzales, the primary proponents of pancreatic enzymes, are full of it, never cured anyone, or at least have no real proof that they did. This really shakes me up -- it would be like finding out that the " super cancer cure " pills I was taking were actually pure glucose tablets. I'm sure it throws Dr. L.L. for a loop too, because she produces the best pancreatic enzymes available, and says she has significantly helped many people with such enzymes. oleander soup , Mike Golden <goldenmike86 wrote: > > I guess I'll weigh in at this point....Ironically, Jim, taking things that inhibit angiogenesis could, theoretically drive metastasis. This has been noted with some of the antiangiogenesis pharmaceuticals. > Metastasis is not an accident. It is not about a chunk of tumor breaking off and migrating elsewhere like the calving of an iceberg from an ice shelf, due solely to mechanical forces. It is an active process that is physiologically based. When a tumor outgrows its blood supply, which is something that happens quite readily, it experiences selection pressures which can result in a series of adaptive responses. One of these responses is similar to the Irish leaving the " Old Sod " during a potato famine. My family " metastasized " to the States that way. In a tumor the cells that don't evolve this escape mechanism might not survive. This is why you can get spontaneous tumor necrosis. Cells that do evolve this mechanism have a chance in the " new world " . > Cutting the blood supply to a tumor via chemical intervention can select for cells that metastasize. > Does pancreatic, or otherwise proteolytic, enzyme supplementation contribute to metastasis? Well...maybe, but it's unlikely it could do it by simply breaking the cells loose by dissolving proteinaceous anchors. It would have to be more complicated that that. I don't think we have the data to answer this question. > Are we supposed to abandon antiangeogenesis approaches and enzymatic treatments? > It seems to me that nearly everything is a " two edged sword " . For every benefit there is a detriment. " One man's meat is another man's poison " , etc.. > If an anticancer regimen is comprehensive; encouraging immune stimulous, involving targeted cytotoxic elements, encouraging healthy terrain, promoting a sense of well-being, incorporating redundant backup systems......then I think that enzymes and antiangiogenesis have their place even if there is a statistical risk when they are considered individually. > > Mike > > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 wrote: > > > jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 > Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers? > oleander soup > Friday, April 3, 2009, 4:00 PM Good points -- I've been taking lycene and proline (via whey isolate), green tea extract, and vitamin C all at the same time to try to inhibit angiogenesis. Am I destroying all this with the porcine enzymes? > > oleander soup, Lisa Tovar <tov_legsec@ ...> wrote: > > > > Yes, it must be figured out. I had been doing reading about Dr. Rath's theories about not breaking down the collagen matrix which would then inhibit metastases and prohibit spread of cancer (using Lysine and Proline to inhibit the breakdown.) It occurred to me that it seems that the pancreatic enzymes might be contraindicated. Coincidentally, I have e-mailed to ask him if the two approaches would conflict -- not breaking down to inhibit cancer cell establishment, or breaking down (i.e., the pancreatic enzymes dissolving materials supposedly to dissolve proteins -- would they dissolve the collagen? I await a response. I hope someone on this board has knowledge as well. I also have just started giving my husband pancreatic enzymes, but had been giving him lysine supplements in the hopes of keeping the cancer from traveling and establishing elsewhere. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 jrrjim, The aboriginees in Australia developed a very effective therapy for tumors... drinking large amounts of green papaya leaf tea. This works because of the large amounts of papain... a proteolytic enzyme itself. I don't know where you're getting your info... but it's incorrect. Bob - " jrrjim " <jim.mcelroy10 <oleander soup > Friday, April 03, 2009 7:29 AM Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers? > I'm pulling this in from another board, and my intention is to purposely > fire up a discussion about this issue, because it concerns me greatly. > > A rather famous person on this other board, who has a well established, > long-standing alternative cancer clinic in Southern California near the > border with Tijuana, is saying that when he sees patients that have sudden > and unexplained metastatis occurring, it is almost always due to a high > intake of protylectic enzymes (I am assuming pancreatic enzymes). > > In a most recent post, he says that only about 5% of his new patients take > high doses of enzymes, yet these 5% account for 50% of his patients with > sudden explosive metastatis occurring. > > He also claims that he could not find a single documented case of a cure > by Kelley or Gonzales, the two most famous people who have promoted > pancreatic enzymes in the past. He considers them frauds. > > This is very disturbing and surprising to me. I just started taking large > doses of Univase Forte, which is the most potent pancreatic enzyme I can > find. Am I setting the stage for my own rapid death? > > This issue REALLY needs to be thoroughly discussed! We MUST be aware of > alternative cures that might be worthless or bad. E.g., Tony himself > thinks that Italian baking soda doctor is a fraud, and I agree. Does this > also apply to Kelley and Gonzales and pancreatic enzymes? > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Aborigines get cancer??? I said where I got my information -- from another cancer board on which a well established alternative healer made this claim. However, I am starting to think this healer is a loose cannon of some type, despite his reputation and higher education in biochemistry. oleander soup , " Bob Banever " <bbanever wrote: > > jrrjim, > > The aboriginees in Australia developed a very effective therapy for > tumors... drinking large amounts of green papaya leaf tea. This works > because of the large amounts of papain... a proteolytic enzyme itself. I > don't know where you're getting your info... but it's incorrect. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Jim, you might have the attributions mixed up or something. I never mentioned Rath. What I addressed was the supposed contrindication for proteolytic enzymes based on what VG had said. My point is that even if you uprooted cancer cells inadvertantly by dissolving their anchor with enzymes, this does not constitute the same thing as metastasis. Metastasis is more complex and requires changes at the DNA level. Mike--- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 wrote: jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soup Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 9:45 PM No, Mike, you missed the point of the discussion, although your response is great on another issue. The issue is whether pancreatic enzymes cause metastasis, not whether Rath's anti-angiogenesis protocol (or any antigenesis protocol, including Avistan) causes metastasis.Our friend VG is claiming, from his experience, that pancreatic enzymes (or more generically, proteolyctic enzymes) can cause cancer to suddenly explode in metastasis.. He further claims that Kelley and Gonzales, the primary proponents of pancreatic enzymes, are full of it, never cured anyone, or at least have no real proof that they did. This really shakes me up -- it would be like finding out that the "super cancer cure" pills I was taking were actually pure glucose tablets. I'm sure it throws Dr. L.L. for a loop too, because she produces the best pancreatic enzymes available, and says she has significantly helped many people with such enzymes. oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...> wrote:>> I guess I'll weigh in at this point....Ironically , Jim, taking things that inhibit angiogenesis could, theoretically drive metastasis. This has been noted with some of the antiangiogenesis pharmaceuticals. > Metastasis is not an accident. It is not about a chunk of tumor breaking off and migrating elsewhere like the calving of an iceberg from an ice shelf, due solely to mechanical forces. It is an active process that is physiologically based. When a tumor outgrows its blood supply, which is something that happens quite readily, it experiences selection pressures which can result in a series of adaptive responses. One of these responses is similar to the Irish leaving the "Old Sod" during a potato famine. My family "metastasized" to the States that way. In a tumor the cells that don't evolve this escape mechanism might not survive. This is why you can get spontaneous tumor necrosis. Cells that do evolve this mechanism have a chance in the "new world". > Cutting the blood supply to a tumor via chemical intervention can select for cells that metastasize.> Does pancreatic, or otherwise proteolytic, enzyme supplementation contribute to metastasis? Well...maybe, but it's unlikely it could do it by simply breaking the cells loose by dissolving proteinaceous anchors. It would have to be more complicated that that. I don't think we have the data to answer this question.> Are we supposed to abandon antiangeogenesis approaches and enzymatic treatments?> It seems to me that nearly everything is a "two edged sword". For every benefit there is a detriment. "One man's meat is another man's poison", etc..> If an anticancer regimen is comprehensive; encouraging immune stimulous, involving targeted cytotoxic elements, encouraging healthy terrain, promoting a sense of well-being, incorporating redundant backup systems..... .then I think that enzymes and antiangiogenesis have their place even if there is a statistical risk when they are considered individually.> > Mike> > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ ...> wrote:> > > jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ ...>> Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?> oleander soup> Friday, April 3, 2009, 4:00 PM> > > > > > > Good points -- I've been taking lycene and proline (via whey isolate), green tea extract, and vitamin C all at the same time to try to inhibit angiogenesis. Am I destroying all this with the porcine enzymes?> > oleander soup, Lisa Tovar <tov_legsec@ ...> wrote:> >> > Yes, it must be figured out. I had been doing reading about Dr. Rath's theories about not breaking down the collagen matrix which would then inhibit metastases and prohibit spread of cancer (using Lysine and Proline to inhibit the breakdown.) It occurred to me that it seems that the pancreatic enzymes might be contraindicated. Coincidentally, I have e-mailed to ask him if the two approaches would conflict -- not breaking down to inhibit cancer cell establishment, or breaking down (i.e., the pancreatic enzymes dissolving materials supposedly to dissolve proteins -- would they dissolve the collagen? I await a response. I hope someone on this board has knowledge as well. I also have just started giving my husband pancreatic enzymes, but had been giving him lysine supplements in the hopes of keeping the cancer from traveling and establishing elsewhere.> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Oh, okay -- I see your point. Mike -- Are you in favor of these enzymes? I am not trying to create a split here, and I will not mention it in that other group, but I respect your opinion more than any other list member. Do you think I should keep taking these enzymes or should I stop? oleander soup , Mike Golden <goldenmike86 wrote: > > Jim, you might have the attributions mixed up or something. I never mentioned Rath. What I addressed was the supposed contrindication for proteolytic enzymes based on what VG had said. My point is that even if you uprooted cancer cells inadvertantly by dissolving their anchor with enzymes, this does not constitute the same thing as metastasis. Metastasis is more complex and requires changes at the DNA level. > > Mike > > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 wrote: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Jim, I'm in favor of the enzymes if certain conditions are present: 1, Patient needs to be able to tolerate them without gastric discomfort. This is not mentioned much, but I know people who cannnot tolerate enzymes. 2. Immune competence is present and preferably boosted. A lot of lab work is done with immune incompetent animals. These animals can be given cancer by simply injecting cancer cells into their tissue. Healthy animals are much more difficult to infect. An immune deficient rat is probably more susceptible to stray cells following enzyme doses and might be very prone to seeding remote sites. 3. Enzymes should not be used as a "stand alone" treatment. Having said these things, I also don't think that enzymes are a NECESSARY component. If nutrients can get into the cancer cells then so can cytotoxic elements. I don't think you have to digest away a protein coat on the cells in order to launch an effective attack. Therapies that boost immune response can have amazing results in vivo. I know you've read some of these reports. None of those approaches included proteolytic enzymes. In my opinion they (proteolytic enzymes) are more important for digestive support. Digestion is often comprimised in advanced cancers and enzymes can help with that. Mike --- On Sun, 4/5/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 wrote: jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10 Re: Are Pancreatic Enzymes killers?oleander soup Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 4:15 PM Oh, okay -- I see your point. Mike -- Are you in favor of these enzymes? I am not trying to create a split here, and I will not mention it in that other group, but I respect your opinion more than any other list member. Do you think I should keep taking these enzymes or should I stop?oleander soup, Mike Golden <goldenmike86@ ...> wrote:>> Jim, you might have the attributions mixed up or something. I never mentioned Rath. What I addressed was the supposed contrindication for proteolytic enzymes based on what VG had said. My point is that even if you uprooted cancer cells inadvertantly by dissolving their anchor with enzymes, this does not constitute the same thing as metastasis. Metastasis is more complex and requires changes at the DNA level.> > Mike> > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@ ...> wrote:> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Dr. Loretta Lanphier...A MOST informative post...insights appreciated over here...One question if I may... "Were they pulsing their supplements so that the body doesn´t get acclimated and therefore become resistant?" I've never heard of the body becoming resistant to supplementation...My question then is...How to avoid this?...for instance...If you are on a regimen of say fish oil/Vit E....Can your body become resistant to the same dose everyday? Warm Regards Elisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I have the exact same questions. oleander soup , " robertselisa " <robertselisa wrote: > > Dr. Loretta Lanphier...A MOST informative post...insights appreciated over here...One question if I may... > " Were they pulsing their supplements so that the body doesn´t get acclimated and therefore become resistant? " > I've never heard of the body becoming resistant to supplementation...My question then is...How to avoid this?...for instance...If you are on a regimen of say fish oil/Vit E....Can your body become resistant to the same dose everyday? > > Warm Regards > Elisa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.