Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Tui Na is not an insurance covered procedure and is therefore not useful at all Oakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 9:50 PM Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 The problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient. Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily. Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC. - Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill The problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Don, First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! MB : don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily. Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. >>>>>>>>>>> Scope of practice changes based on what schools and CEUs teach the profession. The reason we are often held back is because we cannot document necessary education. I agree with you we need to train in more practical WM. I also agree with Mike that we must remain primary physicians in order to truly compete in the market place. To do this safely and for the best interest of our patients that means better primary care WM and as you say its not hard. Look at some of the 18 month PA programs. One of the most clinically relevant deficit we have is not being allowed to inject. Many of the advances in TCM has been in the injection field. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:17 AM RE: Re: Bill Don, First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! MB : don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily. Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMChinese Medicine ! Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 ----- Original Message ----- Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: TC! M - Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) & nbs! p; > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 I beg to differ. You cannot train in surgery and bone setting, etc, when you can't legally train on patients in a practicum setting. Therefore, even if the schools wanted to train full TCM scope, it would be illegal to practice these skills on real patients. If we really want to teach these things, then Mercy Hospital in NY has the right idea, train side-by-side with the M.D.s or have training by qualified M.D. instructors and get certification on those areas in which you wish to practice. - Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:37 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Bill When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. >>>>>>>>>>> Scope of practice changes based on what schools and CEUs teach the profession. The reason we are often held back is because we cannot document necessary education. I agree with you we need to train in more practical WM. I also agree with Mike that we must remain primary physicians in order to truly compete in the market place. To do this safely and for the best interest of our patients that means better primary care WM and as you say its not hard. Look at some of the 18 month PA programs. One of the most clinically relevant deficit we have is not being allowed to inject. Many of the advances in TCM has been in the injection field. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:17 AM RE: Re: Bill Don, First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! MB : don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily. Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMChinese Medicine ! Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 ----- Original Message ----- Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: TC! M - Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) & nbs! p; > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 All profession first the schooling systems and then get the scope upgraded. It is a vicious circle. You cannot get scop on something you are not trained in. You start the book training and than begin the work on changing scope. That is just the way things are. Oakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:21 PM Re: Re: Bill I beg to differ. You cannot train in surgery and bone setting, etc, when you can't legally train on patients in a practicum setting. Therefore, even if the schools wanted to train full TCM scope, it would be illegal to practice these skills on real patients. If we really want to teach these things, then Mercy Hospital in NY has the right idea, train side-by-side with the M.D.s or have training by qualified M.D. instructors and get certification on those areas in which you wish to practice. - Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:37 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Bill When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. >>>>>>>>>>> Scope of practice changes based on what schools and CEUs teach the profession. The reason we are often held back is because we cannot document necessary education. I agree with you we need to train in more practical WM. I also agree with Mike that we must remain primary physicians in order to truly compete in the market place. To do this safely and for the best interest of our patients that means better primary care WM and as you say its not hard. Look at some of the 18 month PA programs. One of the most clinically relevant deficit we have is not being allowed to inject. Many of the advances in TCM has been in the injection field. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:17 AM RE: Re: Bill Don, First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! MB : don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily. Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PM@gro! ups.com! Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 ----- Original Message ----- Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Subjec! t: Re: T C! M - Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) ! ; & nbs! p; > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 There is something called the accreditation agency. They regulate what the schools can and cannot teach. Even if the schools desire to teach certain classes, they must clear it with the accreditation agencies. It's not as simple and easy as you suggest. For instance, Western diagnostics are taught in every California TCM school. However, the M.D. push legislators to resist changing our scope of practice to allow diagnosis. It is still an ongoing debate in our hallowed halls of legislation. I've got a lot of education and educational experience. I've sat on accreditation steering commitees in major Western educational institutions. There are lots of hoops to jump through. But I'll keep making the suggestions. Perhaps our medicine must mature beyond private for-profit institutions and make their way into well funded public schools. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. - Monday, May 15, 2006 12:08 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Bill All profession first the schooling systems and then get the scope upgraded. It is a vicious circle. You cannot get scop on something you are not trained in. You start the book training and than begin the work on changing scope. That is just the way things are. Oakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:21 PM Re: Re: Bill I beg to differ. You cannot train in surgery and bone setting, etc, when you can't legally train on patients in a practicum setting. Therefore, even if the schools wanted to train full TCM scope, it would be illegal to practice these skills on real patients. If we really want to teach these things, then Mercy Hospital in NY has the right idea, train side-by-side with the M.D.s or have training by qualified M.D. instructors and get certification on those areas in which you wish to practice. - Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:37 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Bill When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. >>>>>>>>>>> Scope of practice changes based on what schools and CEUs teach the profession. The reason we are often held back is because we cannot document necessary education. I agree with you we need to train in more practical WM. I also agree with Mike that we must remain primary physicians in order to truly compete in the market place. To do this safely and for the best interest of our patients that means better primary care WM and as you say its not hard. Look at some of the 18 month PA programs. One of the most clinically relevant deficit we have is not being allowed to inject. Many of the advances in TCM has been in the injection field. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:17 AM RE: Re: Bill Don, First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! MB : don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily. Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PM@gro! ups.com! Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 www.integrativehealthmedicinecom ----- Original Message ----- Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Subjec! t: Re: T C! M - Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) ! ; & nbs! p; > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Alon: Your conclusions are incorrect. AB 3014, as written, is seriously flawed, and will reduce the scope of practice for acupuncturists in California. AB 3014 will reduce the scope of practice of " Asian massage " from the current definition of " /traditional manipulative and manual therapies of Asian origin/, " that has been established by our profession, and replace it with a new definition in law that would limit " Asian massage " to " /pressure techniques through massage and mobilization of the skin and muscle/. " The mention of " manual therapy " included in AB 3014 is limited to soft tissue applications. The new definition in AB 3014 essentially duplicates the definition of " acupressure, " , which is listed in our scope as separate from " Asian massage. " Chiros may be able to prevent us from explicitly including more procedures in our scope for awhile, but they are far too weak to take any of our existing scope of practice away. And, they will never get acupuncture into their scope of practice here, because they would have to do so by statewide ballot proposition, because that is how they gained licensure in California. Last time they tried to expand their scope of practice on the ballot, they failed 70% No to 30% Yes! Brian wrote: >I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 I think you are right. We need to move our educational institutions onward and upwards. On May 15, 2006, at 9:23 PM, Donald Snow wrote: > I've got a lot of education and educational experience. I've sat > on accreditation steering commitees in major Western educational > institutions. There are lots of hoops to jump through. But I'll > keep making the suggestions. Perhaps our medicine must mature > beyond private for-profit institutions and make their way into well > funded public schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 i guess i am not sure why you read it that way and as i said except for bone setting all joint manipulation is via soft tissues. Oakland, CA 94609 - Brian C Fennen Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:43 AM Re: Bill Alon: Your conclusions are incorrect. AB 3014, as written, is seriously flawed, and will reduce the scope of practice for acupuncturists in California. AB 3014 will reduce the scope of practice of " Asian massage " from the current definition of " /traditional manipulative and manual therapies of Asian origin/, " that has been established by our profession, and replace it with a new definition in law that would limit " Asian massage " to " /pressure techniques through massage and mobilization of the skin and muscle/. " The mention of " manual therapy " included in AB 3014 is limited to soft tissue applications. The new definition in AB 3014 essentially duplicates the definition of " acupressure, " , which is listed in our scope as separate from " Asian massage. " Chiros may be able to prevent us from explicitly including more procedures in our scope for awhile, but they are far too weak to take any of our existing scope of practice away. And, they will never get acupuncture into their scope of practice here, because they would have to do so by statewide ballot proposition, because that is how they gained licensure in California. Last time they tried to expand their scope of practice on the ballot, they failed 70% No to 30% Yes! Brian wrote: >I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Don: There is nothing in any laws that preclude joint mobilization from acupuncturists' scope of practice in California. In fact, it is interpreted to be a fundamental and core procedure of most forms of traditional Asian (or oriental) massage systems, for which we are licensed to practice. Twenty-five years ago, when " oriental massage " was added to our scope, it was the best term they could come up as a meaningful translation of " TuiNa " and other traditional manual techniques of Asian origin. " Oriental massage " - now called " Asian massage " in law - was definitely meant to include the plethora of complex manipulative techniques included in traditional TuiNa, Shiatsu, Anmo, etc. While there is nothing in chiropractors, physical therapists, and other licensing laws that prohibit other licensed health professional from using the same modalities and procedures that they use. " Acupuncture, " however, is protected by our licensing act to only acupuncturists, physicians, podiatrists, and dentists. Regarding getting better education into our schools, most schools struggle to teach the bare minimum of clinical competencies that are needed for a well-rounded education in AOM, and often focus any optional curriculum hours on some of the easiest or most popular (rather than clinically relevant) competencies to teach. So, it is no surprise to find that some schools may not teach Asian/oriental massage very well. Recommendations for amendments to AB 3014 have been made to prevent the reduction in scope of practice that the current version will cause. Hopefully, they will be accepted. Brian Fennen, LAc, QME Donald Snow wrote: >If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. > > >Thanks for your patience. > > Don Snow, DAOM > >- >Donald Snow >Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM >Chinese Medicine >Re: Bill > >Just say Tuina, that should cover it. > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. > >- > >Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM >Chinese Medicine >Re: Bill > >I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing. However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Does anyone here know anything about the bill in congress to ban or basically outlaw organic farming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Yes : This is done very secretively : Organic and Local Farmers Seek Protections in Washington Momentum is building in Congress for new food safety reforms aimed at addressing the growing cycle of food contamination outbreaks. But concerns are also being raised cautioning legislators not to trample organic farmers, backyard gardeners, and consumers of fresh local foods in the rush to fix the nation's food safety problems. " There is no question that our increasingly industrialized and concentrated food production system needs a new regulatory focus, " said Will Fantle, Research for The Cornucopia Institute, a Wisconsin-based organic food and agriculture watchdog. " No one disputes that our food safety system is broken, " Fantle added. In the last several years, contamination of bagged spinach, lettuce, tomatoes, peppers, beef, and peanuts have sickened thousands of Americans. And currently a massive recall of food products containing pistachios is underway. After years of industry-friendly regulations and deteriorating budgets for inspections, holes in the food safety net have prompted some in Congress to push for new laws and increased oversight. The legislative process, however, has sparked a flurry of internet and email activity, with some warning the agribusiness and biotechnology lobbyists are conspiring to pass legislation outlawing organic farming and home gardens. One of the pending bills, The Food Safety Modernization Act (HR 875), sponsored by Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro (D-CT), has been a lightning rod for criticism. As a result of the blowback Congresswoman DeLauro is scrambling to assure organic advocates that they are not the target of her bill: " The purpose of this bill is to improve the safety of food products derived from large industrial processing facilities by increasing the inspection frequency and safety standards at these plants. " Attempting to quell concerns in the blogosphere, which is going viral, Congresswoman DeLauro also stated, " Organic farmers have a strong record in providing safe, high quality foods to American families and I will continue to work toward making sure that organic farming continues to thrive. " Hearings have already begun on food safety legislation in the U.S. House of Representatives. Of the multiple bills being considered, the FDA Globalization Act (HR 759), sponsored by the most senior member of Congress, Congressman John Dingell (D-MI), appears most likely to be voted on, with elements of the other bills, including DeLauro's, possibly incorporated into the bill. " We have closely examined the various legislative proposals and have been talking with our contacts in Congress, " said Fantle. " We don't believe that harming organic and local producers is the intent of these bills, but we must engage consumers and local food producers in this process to clearly express our concerns that a `one-size fits all' regulatory focus could very well seriously damage some of America's best growers of wholesome, fresh food, " Fantle stated. After the 2006 spinach contamination outbreak in California, that affected consumers across the country, the state adopted a regulatory model that has economically injured growers producing a diverse selection of fresh foods for local markets. It is also caused vast environmental damage as farmers are required to quarantine large tracts of land, removing vegetation and wildlife. California's " leafy greens " program has attracted interest at the U.S. Department of Agriculture for possible national use. Organic farmer Eve Kaplan-Walbrecht, of Riverhead, NY, is critical of this type of plan. " They are burdening produce growers with the impossible task of `sterilizing' their farms. We need good regulatory oversight that doesn't penalize smaller-scale owner-operated farms of farmers and marketers like me. " While some of the nation's food safety issues have farm origins – largely due to the inability of huge industrialized conventional livestock facilities to properly manage their mountains of manure, contaminated with lethal pathogens – many E. coli and salmonella outbreaks originate at processing facilities. This year's outbreak of salmonella in peanut products has been traced to unsanitary conditions at a massive processing plant. And now, the FDA has issued a warning about contaminated pistachios, which appear to have also been tainted during the processing or storage of the nuts or finished processed food products. " We don't want organic family farmers to be made scapegoats and lose their markets because of objectionable food treatment practices or recalls put in place due to sloppy practices at giant food processing facilities, " said Dr. Jesse Schwartz, the President of Living Tree Community Foods, a manufacturer of organic nut butters. " The health and well-being of America, its people, and the American land depend upon the stewardship of family farmers who are the true husbandmen of their soil, plants, and animals. " The Cornucopia Institute is calling on farmers and consumers to stand up for and protect organic and sustainable local farmers. " Organic, local producers of high quality foods are part of our nation's food safety solution–not part of the problem, " said Fantle. Ronnie Cummins of the Organic Consumers Association said that citizens, who are seeking safer and nutritionally superior food are willing to pay a premium for organics, and, " In order for consumers to have continued access to this high quality food family size farmers must be protected from regressive regulation. " YOU CAN TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION SEE FOR THE REST OF THE ARTICLE http://www.jmbblog.com/family-farmers-fear-being-run-over-by-food-safety/ Also they want to irradiate ALL OUR FOOD.!!! This with the " codex alimentarius " will cut us out of any good sources of healthy food and supplements. I have seen the devasting effect of the CODEX ALIMENTARIUS " in Europe and Asia I could nt buy Vitamin C with a potency superior to ............... 6o mg. Yes sixty . See for action : http://www.jmbblog.com/codex-alimentarius-dare-you-ignore-it/ ========================================================= " W. Spencer " <lpospencer wrote: > > Does anyone here know anything about the bill in congress to ban or basically outlaw organic farming. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I've looked thru the material and cannot see where I can sign a petition. Please help me. In a message dated 5/11/2009 4:07:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shaman_urban writes: http://www.jmbblog.com/family-farmers-fear-being-run-over-by-food-safety/ Recession-proof vacation ideas. Find free things to do in the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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