my current tongue

[Guest guest]

To Victoria_Dragon

 

 

my tongue according to my partner

is pale, swollen and often has teeth marks.

 

Devlin

[Guest guest]

> my tongue according to my partner

> is pale, swollen and often has teeth marks.

 

This suggests Damp (swollen and teeth marks) and Cold (pale).

 

Did your partner say anything about the tongue coating? Thick (and

white) would point to Excess Cold. (From environment, diet, herbs,

etc.) Thin and white is normal or goes along with Deficiency Cold.

(Not enough Yang to warm the body properly).

 

These are just general remarks. A TCM healer in person will be noting

a lot of other things to see if other things support Cold and Damp.

 

Has your partner given you a TCM diagnosis?

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> my tongue according to my partner

> is pale, swollen and often has teeth marks.

 

I need to add something to the previous reply to this since both Cold

and Dampness are suggested, and which kind of Cold also needs to be

determined.

 

In general, a thick tongue coating points to Excess; a thin or absent

tongue coat suggests Deficiency.

 

Dampness is an Excess condition because any Dampness accumulation is

too much. (Qi Stagnation, Blood Stasis, and Phlegm also are

classified as Excess for the same reason. Excess problems are those

arise because there is too much of something in the body. Deficiency

problems are caused by there not being enough of something.)

 

A thick tongue coating goes along with Dampness. So, is the Cold

Deficiency Cold (caused by there not being enough Yang to warm the

body properly), Excess Cold (caused by Cold in the environment

invading the body or a diet which is too Cold), or are both

Deficiency and Excess Cold present? The pulse and other signs and

symptoms as well as the history will aid the healer in determining if

it is Excess Cold, Deficiency Cold, or a combination of the two.

Treatment will vary based on which it is.

[Guest guest]

> This suggests Damp (swollen and teeth marks) and Cold (pale).

 

I thought such a tongue suggested spleen deficiency, with damp as a

secondary possibility?

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> > This suggests Damp (swollen and teeth marks) and Cold (pale).

>

> I thought such a tongue suggested spleen deficiency, with damp as a

> secondary possibility?

 

A pale, swollen tongue can be Qi Deficiency or Yang Deficiency

(Deficiency Cold). The tongue will be pale in Excess Cold, but it

won't necessarily be swollen unless there also is Spleen Qi weakness

and/or Kidney Yang Deficiency.

 

Qi Deficiency automatically raises the possibility of weak Spleen

because the Spleen plays such a critical role in extracting and

transporting Qi.

 

If the pale tongue is a normal size, that could be Qi Deficiency that

hasn't gone on for some time. What happens when Qi Deficiency has

gone untreated for some time?

 

One of the critical functions of Spleen Qi is to " transform and

transport " fluids in the body. Eventually, if left untreated, there

will not be enough Qi to perform this function, and the tongue starts

to swell. Eventually, so do other parts of the body. Kideny Yang

Deficiency also can result in a swollen tongue and edema elsewhere in

the body.

 

Complicating things is that a person frequently will have more than

one imbalance, and an initial imbalance may have gone on so long as

to trigger other imbalances. It's helpful to break the imbalnces down

to a flow chart like arrangement.

 

(To be continue.)

[Guest guest]

IF tongue tissue pale THEN suspect Qi Deficiency, Yang Deficiency

(Deficiency Cold), Excess Cold, and/or Blood Deficiency.

 

If tongue coating normal to thinner than normal AND tongue tissue

pale, THEN suspect Deficiency (Blood Deficiency, Qi Deficiency (early

stages), and/or Yang Deficiency; ELSE GOTO Excess conditions (Excess

Cold and/or Dampness accumulation).

 

IF tongue pale and shriveled, THEN suspect Blood Deficiency AND check

for other symtpoms and signs of Blood Deficiency. (Thready pulse,

shriveled skin (like a prune), dull and pale complexion, scanty

menses in women, possible itchy and dry skin and scalp, muscle

weakness and tendency to cramping, possible numbness, possible

dizziness, possible spots in vision field ( " floaters " ), possible

falling to sleep easily but awaking during night and having vivid

dreams.

 

IF tongue tissue pale AND tongue coat normal to thinner than normal

AND tongue normal size THEN suspect Qi Deficiency and/or Yang

Deficiency.

 

Looking at the similarities between Qi Deficiency and Yang

Deficiency, both can result in fatigue, a tendency to perspire,

swallow respiration, a quiet voice and manner, a weak pulse, a

complexion which is shiny and pale (unlike Blood Deficiency which

tends to be dull pale), edema (as they progress), and a tendency not

to want to move too much.

 

IF person has trouble warming up and feels cold when others don't

THEN suspect Yang Deficiciency. Also, slowness will be much more

apparent in a person who is Yang Deficient than one who is Qi

Deficient because of the way Cold slows things down.

 

Also, digestive system problems will be very noticable when it's

Spleen weakness and Qi Deficiency; and urinary problems as well as

sore lower back, weak and sore knees, ear and hearing problems,

problems with the teeth, and no desire for liquids except for hot

soups will be noticable when it's Kidney Yang Deficiency.

 

(To be continue.)

[Guest guest]

The Spleen plays a critical role in the extraction and transporation

of Qi, and the Kidneys supply the Yang (and the Yin) to the rest of

the body. So why do you sometimes see diagnoses like Spleen Yang

Deficiency and Kidney Qi Deficiency.

 

These diagnoses are further describing particular problems that

exist, and areas of the body that are getting particularly hard hit.

For example, the Kidneys may even be supplying enough Yang, but the

Spleen isn't getting enough for some reason. Since it's the Spleen

which is Yang Deficient, the diagnosis is Spleen Yang Deficiency. If

both the Kidneys and the Spleen are Deficient, the diagnosis usually

is Dual Kidney and Spleen Yang Deficiency. There are some additional

problems that one doesn't see with just Kidney Yang Deficiency.

Digestive system problems are emphasized along with Kidney symptoms.

 

In the case of Kidney Qi Deficiency, the rest of the body may or may

not have enough Qi, but the Kidneys don't have enough, and there is a

symptom that doesn't appear just with Spleen Qi Deficiency: Urinary

incontinence.

 

In general, Qi Deficiency will result in what I call " leaks " . If

it's urine being " leaked " , suspect Kidney and/or Bladder Qi

Deficiency. If the person suffers from what some on here have

called " Leaky Butt Syndrome " (the person " leaks " watery fecal

material), this is a manifestaion of Spleen Qi Deficiency. (Actually

this one follows a sequence of longterm and untreated Spleen

Deficiency " reaching " the Kidneys and results in Kidneys No Longer

Astinging the Intestines and Intestional Deficiency Not Securing.)

 

Qi Deficiency in general manifests as excessive perspiration. If

this particular " leak " is especially bad and noticable, suspect and

rule in or rule out Lung Qi Deficiency. Also, the swallow breathing

of Qi Deficiency will be particularly bad with it's Lung Qi

Deficiency.

 

" Leaking " blood is a special case of Spleen Qi Deficiency

called " Spleen Failing to Control Blood " . Another important function

of Spleen Qi is that it " holds " the blood in the vessels. (Note: Hot

Blood also can manifest as hemorrhages, nose bleeds, excessive

menstrual blood loss, etc.)

[Guest guest]

All this sounds very confusing right now because there is so much of

it. Part of learning when a particular Organ is affected is learning

what the Organs do from a TCM standpoint and what things " go along "

with the Organ. For example, any problem with urination, a sore back

(especially lower back pain), sore and weak knees, problems with the

ears and/or hearing, and problems with the teeth point to Kidney

imbalance. These are general symptoms of a Kidney imbalance and

won't tell you what the particular imbalance is, just that there is a

Kidney imbalance. Other signs and symptoms will narrow it down to the

particular Kidney imbalance. Problems with urine leaks? Suspect and

rule in or rule out Kidney Qi Deficiency because a Qi Deficiency goes

along with " leaks " . Does the person feel cold a lot and have trouble

warning up, doesn't like to drink liquids unless it's hot soup, and

produces a lot of pale urine? That's Kidney Yang Deficiency. Does

the person have thirst, produce dark and scanty urine, have a dry

mouth at night, suffers night sweats, and dislikes heat? That's

Kidney Yin Deficiency.

 

If there are digestive system problems, suspect Spleen imbalance.

Just digestive problems in general won't tell you what the exact

Spleen imbalance is, just that one probably exists, but the

particular digestive system problems (as well as some other problems)

will help you narrow it down.

 

If breathing problems are particularly bad, suspect Lung imbalance

and rule in or rule out. Also suspect the Lungs if the skin is

affected, and rule in or rule out.

 

If there are problems with the eyes and/or vision, suspect and rule

in or rule out Liver imbalance.

 

These are all general symptoms of particular Organs. By themselves,

they won't pinpoint the exact imbalance, but they point you to a

particular Organ system.

 

(To be continued.)

[Guest guest]

First, my apology that the first message in this series appeared

after the second post in the series. That can be confusing. I need

to start numbering posts in a series. (I'm losing long messages.)

 

Getting back to the flow chart for pale tongues:

 

IF tongue is pale AND coating is thick, suspect and rule in or rule

out Dampness and Excess Cold.

 

If tongue is pale AND coating is thick AND tongue is swollen THEN

Dampness.

 

You won't see a swollen tongue with Excess Cold unless the Cold has

gone on so long that it has attacked and weakened the Spleen, thus

paving the way for Dampness accumulation. Remember, the Kidneys are

most vulnerable to Cold. The Spleen is most vulnerable to Damp, but

also vulnerable to Cold. Cold also destroys Yang.

 

So why did I lean toward Damp and Cold in this particular case

instead of Dampness and Spleen Qi Deficiency? Because of what the

poster related about the dreary, wet weather. Also, I know that this

area of the country is coolish. Whenever a person is exposed to a

weather condition which the person is not used to and/or the person

mentions the weather, suspect that the weather may be playing a part

in the person's problems. (You should hear some of the things I have

to say about wind and cold, the mildest being, " I HATE wind! It's too

#$%$# cold! " )

 

Someone who was seeing the poster in person would have picked up on

clues unavailable to me and might be considering other things. When

making a TCM analysis, one will be constantly shifting through and

considering various possibilities as more information becomes

available. You do learn to think much like a computer programmer

does. In time, patterns start to " leap " out at you. You recognize the

particular constellation of symptoms and signs that indicate say

Blood Deficiency or Qi Stagnation or whatever. Eventually you get to

the point where you can recognize two or more patterns at the same

time. But this takes time.

 

The end of this series of posts.

[Guest guest]

Victoria,

 

I have had diharea (sp?)

for the last three months.

My western doctor told me to eat more bannanas.

I have told my tcm practioner but nobody seems to be

listening.

Should I be concerned about this?

Every morning I wake up, it is just water.

I started having this problem when I started my paxil

for anxiety and depression.

This seems to be the only side effect.

What do you think?

Devlin

--- victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon wrote:

> The Spleen plays a critical role in the extraction

> and transporation

> of Qi, and the Kidneys supply the Yang (and the Yin)

> to the rest of

> the body. So why do you sometimes see diagnoses

> like Spleen Yang

> Deficiency and Kidney Qi Deficiency.

>

> These diagnoses are further describing particular

> problems that

> exist, and areas of the body that are getting

> particularly hard hit.

> For example, the Kidneys may even be supplying

> enough Yang, but the

> Spleen isn't getting enough for some reason. Since

> it's the Spleen

> which is Yang Deficient, the diagnosis is Spleen

> Yang Deficiency. If

> both the Kidneys and the Spleen are Deficient, the

> diagnosis usually

> is Dual Kidney and Spleen Yang Deficiency. There are

> some additional

> problems that one doesn't see with just Kidney Yang

> Deficiency.

> Digestive system problems are emphasized along with

> Kidney symptoms.

>

> In the case of Kidney Qi Deficiency, the rest of the

> body may or may

> not have enough Qi, but the Kidneys don't have

> enough, and there is a

> symptom that doesn't appear just with Spleen Qi

> Deficiency: Urinary

> incontinence.

>

> In general, Qi Deficiency will result in what I call

> " leaks " . If

> it's urine being " leaked " , suspect Kidney and/or

> Bladder Qi

> Deficiency. If the person suffers from what some on

> here have

> called " Leaky Butt Syndrome " (the person " leaks "

> watery fecal

> material), this is a manifestaion of Spleen Qi

> Deficiency. (Actually

> this one follows a sequence of longterm and

> untreated Spleen

> Deficiency " reaching " the Kidneys and results in

> Kidneys No Longer

> Astinging the Intestines and Intestional Deficiency

> Not Securing.)

>

> Qi Deficiency in general manifests as excessive

> perspiration. If

> this particular " leak " is especially bad and

> noticable, suspect and

> rule in or rule out Lung Qi Deficiency. Also, the

> swallow breathing

> of Qi Deficiency will be particularly bad with it's

> Lung Qi

> Deficiency.

>

> " Leaking " blood is a special case of Spleen Qi

> Deficiency

> called " Spleen Failing to Control Blood " . Another

> important function

> of Spleen Qi is that it " holds " the blood in the

> vessels. (Note: Hot

> Blood also can manifest as hemorrhages, nose bleeds,

> excessive

> menstrual blood loss, etc.)

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I believe the first logical step would be stopping the medication that is

causing the problem. Perhaps another medication could be tried--or try a

natural supplement.

 

Troy

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , Laura Seeton <jaz21mine>

wrote:

> Victoria,

>

> I have had diharea (sp?)

> for the last three months.

> My western doctor told me to eat more bannanas.

> I have told my tcm practioner but nobody seems to be

> listening.

> Should I be concerned about this?

> Every morning I wake up, it is just water.

> I started having this problem when I started my paxil

> for anxiety and depression.

> This seems to be the only side effect.

> What do you think?

> Devlin

 

 

Hi,

 

I checked the Paxil manufacturer's website because I was curious

about your question to Victoria. Both constipation and diarrhea are

listed among the side effects.

 

http://www.paxil.com/about/nw_pxl.html#question4

 

I am in the learning phase here, but I don't believe having diarrhea

every day is okay under any treatment protocol. Are you replacing

your electrolytes regularly? Are you losing weight?

 

I'm interested in what people have to say to you on treating anxiety

with TCM.

 

All the best to you,

mjd

[Guest guest]

HI I haven't looked Paxil up in my PDR but if I remember correctly Paxil

creates QI stagnation in the brain by messing with the seratonin reuptake. That

stagnation can turn to stagnant heat.

It could cause diarrhea by either a middle jiao disharmony or an actual liver

overacting on the spleen. You would look both the symptoms and at the pulses

to determine which it was.

With a middle jiao disharmony you just tonify the spleen and very slightly

move. With a liver overacting on the spleen you would move the liver, figure

out what was the root of the liver disharmony energetically (liver blood or yin

deficiency, liver fire, liver QI stagnation, etc.) and slightly tonify the

spleen.

Whenever you are treating depression you need to figure out if it is an

excess or deficient depression the key question is do you feel better if you

can

get up and do something active (QI stagnation) or do you feel more wiped out

and depressed (deficiency) with deficiency you then need to figure out which

organ (kidney, lung, spleen or heart) is deficient.

shad Reinstein

[Guest guest]

> I have had diharea (sp?)

> for the last three months.

> My western doctor told me to eat more bannanas.

> I have told my tcm practioner but nobody seems to be

> listening.

> Should I be concerned about this?

> Every morning I wake up, it is just water.

> I started having this problem when I started my paxil

> for anxiety and depression.

> This seems to be the only side effect.

> What do you think?

 

If the problem started when you started the paxil, you may want to

find an alternative to it.

 

First, check the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) for side effects

associated with paxil. Your local library or the acupuncture school

should have a copy of a PDR. Or, check the Internet for side effects

associated with the drug.

 

If you still want to go the prescription drug route, there may be

other drugs without this side effect. Talk with your doctor.

 

The suggestion to eat bananas may be to help replace potassium, not

to stop the diarhhea.

 

In TCM, soft bowel movement may be associated with Spleen Qi

Deficiency. There are some other things that can cause it.

 

Also, does anyone have any info on how paxil works from a TCM

standpoint. Is it cooling, heating, or neutral? Does it disperse

Qi? Etc.

[Guest guest]

mystardance wrote:

>I am in the learning phase here, but I don't believe having diarrhea

>every day is okay under any treatment protocol.

 

I agree - diarrhea is not a normal state for the body. If something gives me

diarrhea I cut back (like the Mallic Acid/Magnesium supplement I am taking)

or quit taking it and go back to whomever recommended it and tell them it is

giving me the runs. Cheers, Cat

 

 

^. .^ ~

 

" Optimism is magic! "