Guest guest Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Sam, Hmmm...thanks for the extra info. Your diagnosis is much clearer to me now. The heat sensations at night definitely is yin deficiency heat, as I have described before. Your hands and feet being cold even when you feel hot further emphasizes that yin and yang are in disharmony. Also, your qi and blood deficiency can cause cold hands and feet because there is not enough energy and blood to reach the extremities to warm them. The fact that your hands go numb easily is also due to blood deficiency, which can cause blood stasis. If there is not enough water in the river, the river cannot flow as smoothly and strongly. So there you have it: Yin deficiency (mainly that of the heart and kidneys), Qi and Blood deficiency, along with some dampness. All of those can cause chronic fatigue. This is the best diagnosis I can come up with over the computer. But as I said before, I hope you found a competent doctor, because nothing can replace the accuracy of in-person diagnosis by a good doctor. Tongue and pulse is a big part of the diagnosis, so I can only take your word for it when it comes to your tongue and pulse. But according to your symptoms, it is almost certain that you have yin deficiency, qi and blood deficiency. There may be other factors that can only be known by feeling the pulse and seeing the tongue. You see, Chinese medicine is a science in and of itself, and is a fascinating science of how energy behaves in the universe, and in the body (which is a micro-universe anyway). There is an explanation for everything using Chinese medicine's principle of energy behaviour. Now, let's try to figure out why you are so deficient. Are you overworked? Spending more time at the job than allowing yourself leisure activities? Working too hard can really consume your body's vital qi, if you are not balancing work with enough rest. More importantly, do you tend to go to sleep very late? A lot of people are burning out their yin by staying up late and don't even know it. This is because, at night, your body's blood goes to the Liver to be nourished and rejuvenated, so if you're not sleeping at night (esp between the hours of 11pm to 4am), you're body will not make enough good blood. Over time, you can develop yin deficiency because blood is a yin substance. Yin deficiency can also arise from excessive sexual activity. What is considered excessive depends on your age and constitution. Heat in your body that has not been treated successfully can also damage the body fluids and damage your yin. About the Qi and Blood deficiency, it is possible that the spleen qi is damaged by excess worry/overthinking, and therefore resulting in the Spleen not being able to produce enough blood to nourish the body. When there is not enough blood to support the heart, this results in more anxiety, as well as dream-disturbed sleep. A poor diet and irregular eating times can also damage Spleen Qi. It is so easy to damage spleen qi nowadays, especially because of the type of lifestyle that is demanded by modern society. There are more possibilities, but I cannot think of at this very moment. Well, I hope I have covered all that is relevant. Hope you find the origin of your problem and fix it at the root. Mei Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sam_ng2 " <sam_ng2> wrote: > > > Hi Mei, > > I do notice when i get hot or cold. When i get heat sensations in > the evening, it is usually my face and head that sweat + flush. My > hands and feet are usually fine although they tend to be cold even > if i feel hot. > > I have noticed that in the past few years, i've be getting the > problem of my hand going numb during sleep, usually when i've been > sleeping on my side or with my arm behind my head. When this > happens, i usually semi-awaken and manage to shake my arm to get the > circulation going to my hand within a minute or so. Maybe this has > something to do with the blood stasis that you mentioned. > > Yep, it was me who queried about further thyroid tests to see if i > had hyperthyroidism (or even hypo). I'm in HK at the moment on > holiday (i'm from the UK), primarily to see another Chinese doctor. > I talked to him and he seems to reluctant to explain in detail about > my condition (not that i would understand the Cantonese terms > anyway) but mentioned that the problems lay with my mood (emotion?) > and my digestive system. He dismissed the possibility of a problem > with the kidney. > > Its great that you're studying TCM. Its something i've thought about > if i don't find a good remedy for my condition. I don't think it > will be that easy in the UK because the only university offering a > degree asks for a background in medicine or biology. I've definitely > learnt at lot from reading about TCM on the internet though. > > I found that letting my food cool so that it is only lukewarm helps > reduce those sensations of rising heat when i'm eating. Also i feel > less shivering/chills after eating. > > After my evening meal, i've tried to do some abdominal breathing > while sitting in front of my PC and found it helps prevent me from > feeling too hot and feeling flushed. > > Damn, i think i've written too much...makes it so much harder to > read. Anyway i look forward to any further advice you or any other > members can give me > > Sam > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mindbodyacupuncture " > <mindbodyacupuncture> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Sam, > > Your condition is definitely a complex one. > > When you say that you get hot or cold easily, do you notice WHEN > you > > get hot and when you get cold? You did mention you get heat > > sensations easily during the evening, do you also notice that your > > palms and/or soles get warm or sweat during the evening? > > Or are your hands and feet cold but your chest/torso warm? > > Do you also get restless or irritable in the evening? > > > > Blood stasis can arise from Qi and blood deficiency as well, which > > can be a possibility since your pulse is very weak. I wonder if > your > > pulse is also thin...Blood stasis can also be caused by weak heart > qi > > that is unable to move the blood as normal. > > > > Diagnosis in is one of the hardest things to > learn. > > If only real live people fit the textbook pattern descriptions, > but > > as I am learning more and more, it is rarely the case. Also, > > learning to accurately read the tongue and feel the pulse can be > > quite challenging as well. For example, if you look at your > tongue > > in broad daylight, in natural sunlight (doesn't have to be > direct), > > you will see your true tongue color). If you are inside a room > lit > > by unnatural (flourescent especially) light, then everything > > changes. Most people's tongue look purple under flourescent light. > > Also, one has to have a trained eye to know what is a white tongue > > coating and what is a yellow tongue coat, what is considered > > unrooted, etc. When I first started out apprenticing, when my > > teacher and I look at a tongue together, I will say white coat, > but > > he will say yellow. > > > > Sorry for so many questions, I'm trying to understand your > condition > > better, and hope that I can provide you with more assistance... > > > > I have a Master's degree in Chinese medicine, licensed in New > York, > > and currently living in China to further my studies by > apprenticing > > with an experienced doctor. My teacher has a certain knack for > > treating difficult diseases (yi nan bing), so it has become my > > interest as well. > > > > It's funny that you live in HK, my husband and I will be going to > HK > > in the near future to visit a friend there. LOL > > It's a small world. > > > > About the thyroid disorder, didn't you say you took a test and it > > came back fine? Or was that someone else? > > > > Mei > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sam_ng2 " <sam_ng2> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Mei, > > > I've actually been seeing various TCM doctors for about 18 > > > months but apart from the stool improving, i haven't seen much > > > improvement. All the treatment i've had is from herbs. > > > > > > I am currently in Hong Kong and have been seeing another doctor > for > > > about 3 weeks but don't seem to have gotten any better. > > > > > > My heartbeat does go up quite easily from even a little bit of > > > stress. > > > > > > Marcos mentioned in another post that it seemed like heat stasis > > > with cold (because of red spots and white coating on tongue) > > > possibly due to a badly cured infection. > > > > > > This has been mentioned by my current TCM doctor but i don't > know > > > whether he has changed his diagnosis since. I do remember > getting > > > continually ill from colds when i was younger. I also do seem to > > get > > > hot or cold very easily. > > > > > > Do any of these problems cause thyroid disorders? > > > > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mindbodyacupuncture " > > > <mindbodyacupuncture> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sam, > > > > > > > > The fact that you get hungry soon after you've eaten may point > to > > > > Stomach Yin deficiency as well. It is not uncommon to have > > kidney > > > yin > > > > deficiency affecting the yin of the whole body and vice versa. > > > > > > > > The teeth imprints along with having had loose stool does > point to > > > > spleen deficiency dampness. > > > > > > > > The fact that your heat sensations are worse in the evening > > further > > > > emphasizes yin deficiency heat because yin should be anchoring > > > yang at > > > > this time of day. Since night is the yin part of the day, any > > > > problems regarding yin will be more pronounced during the > evening. > > > > > > > > Does your heart sometimes beat faster and more vigorously than > > > normal? > > > > > > > > If your problem is one that is complex or chronic, sometimes > it > > > will > > > > take a little longer to feel improvement with treatment. As > the > > > case > > > > is with yin deficiency, it does tend to be a chronic > situation. > > > > However, within the 3 weeks, have you had any changes in your > > > health > > > > besides stool being firmer? > > > > > > > > May I also inquire about how the doctor is treating you? > > > Acupunture? > > > > Herbs? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mei > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sam_ng2 " > <sam_ng2> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thx for your diagnosis Mei. I've tried to answer your > questions > > > > > below: > > > > > > > > > > 1.How is your bowel movement? > > > > > > > > > > Two to three times a day. Usually pretty soon after a > medium > > > sized > > > > > meal. My stool used to be very loose but is much better > since i > > > > > started the herbs. > > > > > > > > > > 2.Is your appetite ok? > > > > > > > > > > My appetite is fine although i tend to get hungry very > soon > > > after > > > > > i've eaten. I also have a sweet toothe but i can control > myself > > > with > > > > > regards to sweet food. > > > > > > > > > > 3.Does your tongue have teeth imprints on the edges? > > > > > > > > > > My chinese doctor did point this out. I think i have still > a > > > > > little but maybe not as prominent as before. > > > > > > > > > > 4.Do you get heart palpitations when under stress (physical, > > > > > emotional)? > > > > > > > > > > Yes, i feel very hot and feel like the heat is rising to > my > > > face > > > > > and off the top of my head. My face usually feels very hot > and > > > goes > > > > > red. Trying to hold down the sensation of the heat rising is > > > > > something i find quite myself doing on a daily basis. Its > quite > > > > > stressful. > > > > > > > > > > 5.Do your sensations of heat get worse in the evening or > pretty > > > much > > > > > the same intensity throughout the day? > > > > > > > > > > Its worst in the evenings, especially after dinner. In the > > > morning > > > > > i feel better especially before i've eaten anything or done > > much > > > > > physical activity. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > I think i've been told by a couple of doctors that the > dampness > > > is a > > > > > result of my spleen being too weak. > > > > > > > > > > I'm in Hong Kong at the moment so theres no shortage of TCM > > > > > practitioners here. I don't seem to have improved at all > after > > > > > seeing a reputable TCM doctor for 3 weeks. Let me know if > you > > > have > > > > > any more questions. > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mindbodyacupuncture " > > > > > <mindbodyacupuncture> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sam! > > > > > > > > > > > > How is your bowel movement? Is it once a day? Is your > > > appetite > > > > > ok? > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your tongue have teeth imprints on the edges? > > > > > > Do you get heart palpitations when under stress (physical, > > > > > emotional)? > > > > > > Do your sensations of heat get worse in the evening or > pretty > > > much > > > > > > the same intensity throughout the day? > > > > > > > > > > > > From what you've said so far, it sounds like you may have > > > Heart > > > > > and > > > > > > Kidney Yin deficiency with empty heat rising, along with > > > dampness, > > > > > > the source of which is still unclear to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I say there is heart involvement because you feel anxiety, > > and > > > > > that > > > > > > usually points to the heart. > > > > > > A weak pulse is also indicative of the heart's pumping > > > function > > > > > being > > > > > > weak. Also, restless sleep can also be a result of the > heart > > > > > spirit > > > > > > not being anchored. > > > > > > > > > > > > Herbs would be very beneficial to your condition. My > teacher > > > with > > > > > > whom I apprentice, he treats people with herbs alone, and > > they > > > > > only > > > > > > get better each week. > > > > > > That is not to say that other forms of treatment cannot do > > > just as > > > > > > well... > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mei > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " sam_ng2 " > > > <sam_ng2> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou all for your contributions. I deeply appreciate > > it. > > > I > > > > > was > > > > > > > away from the computer for a couple of days so i only > > > managed to > > > > > > > read the replies today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I kept my original message short but i can expand on my > > > > > condition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had the problem of fatigue and feeling hot for > at > > > least > > > > > 7 > > > > > > > years now. I seem to get overheated if i go into a warm > > > > > > > environoment, perform moderate activity or sit down for > a > > > hot > > > > > meal. > > > > > > > Its usually accompanied by sweating on the face and > scalp > > > and > > > > > > > flushing too. It usually passes within a minute but it > > makes > > > me > > > > > > feel > > > > > > > dizzy and unable to focus. My skin is oily and i have a > lot > > > of > > > > > > > dreams when i sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get very anxious when i feel hot and the anxiety > usually > > > makes > > > > > it > > > > > > > worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding the condition of my tongue, the tip of my > tongue > > > is > > > > > > > covered in small red spots. The middle and back of my > > tongue > > > > > have > > > > > > > much larger red spots, like small bumps. The tongue > coating > > > is > > > > > > > uniform (not cracked) and tends to vary in thickness, > > > usually > > > > > the > > > > > > > thickist when i wake up in the morning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about whether i have hyperthyroidism. I am > > > still > > > > > > trying > > > > > > > to figure out what is wrong with me. I seem to have some > of > > > the > > > > > > > symptoms such as back pain, chronic fatigue, aversion to > > > heat. > > > > > > > Anything remotely stimulating seems to make me feel hot > > > whether > > > > > it > > > > > > > is food, physical activity or emotion. (I have to cut > back > > > on a > > > > > lot > > > > > > > of swimmming, sprinting and football because it takes me > a > > > long > > > > > > time > > > > > > > to recover physically). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think my pulse is weak and hard to feel. I recall that > > the > > > > > rate > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the pulse is slightly fast but the doctor felt it was > > > acceptable > > > > > > for > > > > > > > someone of my age (I'm male and 22). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope that wasn't too much to read Thankyou all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , marcos > <ishk18> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > the lower back pain indicates kidney deficiency, the > > > spleen > > > > > def. > > > > > > > > can give rise to damp and that CAN account for the > chronic > > > > > > > > fatigue(plus the kd,yang def.). Now the red tongue is > it > > > vivid > > > > > > > > red or more purplish? the rate of the pulse is telling > > > too. Is > > > > > > > > the tongue coating peeled or intact? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hyperthyroid involves usually a pattern of kidney yin > > > def.with > > > > > > > > empty heat, liver yin def, also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marcos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- sam_ng2 <sam_ng2> escreveu: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen various TCM practitioners for about a 18 > > > months > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > total. > > > > > > > > > I seemed to have been diagnosed with mainly spleen > > > > > difficiency > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > dampness (damp heat?). I've taken the herbs for a > few > > > months > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > each doctor but don't seem to be progressing much > apart > > > from > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stool being much firmer than at the start. I still > get > > > hot > > > > > > > > > easily > > > > > > > > > and suffer from chronic fatigue. I get chronic lower > > > back > > > > > pain > > > > > > > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had a blood test for my thyroid but they came > back > > > fine. > > > > > > > > > Thing > > > > > > > > > i want to know is how accurate it is as I am > suspecting > > > that > > > > > i > > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > have hyperthyroidism. Should i ask my GP for further > > > tests? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would appreciate any advice, thx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (My pulse is weak, thickish white coating on tongue > > > which is > > > > > > > > > red all > > > > > > > > > over, pale complexion. i watch my diet) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Converse com seus amigos em tempo real com o > > > Messenger > > > > > > > > http://br.download./messenger/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 A reminder to those new to TCM that the TCM concept of Blood is not equivalent to anatomical blood. In other words, Western blood tests can be normal but according to TCM criteria, the person suffers from Blood Deficiency. (BTW, the reason so many common English words are captialized in TCM is to convey that there are special definitions in TCM.) TCM defines things according to functions and in terms of how they are related to other things. The main function of Blood is to nourish and moistens the body. And one does run into cases where there are mixed Dryness and Dampness problems because the Spleen is weak. Keep in mind that the Spleen plays a critical role not only in Qi accumulation but in the production of Blood. If one has one because of a weak Spleen, sooner or later the other also will develop. Sometimes the Qi Deficiency and Dampness symptoms will predominate - like swollen tongue and oily skin - but sometimes the Blood Deficiency will predominate - shriveled tongue, dry skin, a tendency to dehydration and thick blood. (That's thick anatomical blood. Lab technicians may even have trouble drawing blood on people with this problem and trouble getting an IV in. Especially if the person has small veins. Savvy lab technicians sometimes will instruct such people to tank up on water prior to a blood test in order to make the drawing of blood easier.) The key determination of Blood Deficiency rests on are the tissues being nourished and moistened? There is another function of Blood in TCM physiology. It provides a residence for and anchors the Mind. Yes, I know this sounds very weird to most Westerners, but bear with me for a while. " If the Blood is deficient, the Mind will lack its foundation and so become unhappy or uneasy. This is typically manifested by a " deficient restlessness " characterized by a vague anxiety, slight irritability, and a feeling of dissatisfaction. When we are asleep at night Blood naturally embraces the Mind, but if Blood is deficient the Mind " floats " and the person cannot sleep. " (Giovanni Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 50. It is critical that a person with Liver Blood Deficiency gets plenty of rest lying down. Not just sitting in a chair but lying down. This causes Blood to return to the Liver where it is regenerated. The catch-22 is that getting a person to lie down and rest who has Blood Deficiency and Yin Deficiency reslessness isn't always easy. The person is restless. The Mind, aka Shen, resides in the Heart (Blood) and is anchored by adequate Blood. " The Blood is the root of the Mind. This concept is important in practice as Heart-Blood roots and Mind, it embraces it and achors it, so that the Mind will be peaceful and happy. If Heart Blood is deficient and does not root the Mind, this will result in mental restlessness, depression, anxiety and insomnia. Conversely, mental restlessness, emotional problems and sadness can induce a deficiency of Blood of the Heart causing palpitations, a pale complexion and a weak or irregular pulse. " (Maciocia, p. 72.) Note how Chinese medicine recognizes that not only can Heart Blood Deficiency trigger these emotions, but these emotions can trigger Heart Blood Deficiency. It's a snowballing situation. Shen refers specifically to the Mind which resides in the Heart, but the word also " is used to indicate the whole sphere of emotional, mental and spiritual aspects of a human being. In this sense, it is related not only to the Heart, but it encompasses the emotional, mental and spiritual phenomena of all the other organs, notably the Yinb organs. (Maciocia, p. 720 (The Yin Organs are the Heart, Spleen, Lungs, Kidneys, and Liver.) " Since the Heart stores the Mind, it is very closely related to sleep. The Mind should reside in the Heart and if the Heart (particularly Heart-Blood) is strong, a person will fall asleep easily and the sleep will be sound. If the Heart is weak, the Mind has no residnce and it will " float " at night causing inability to fall asleep, disturbed sleep or excessive dreaming. All dreams therefore are, in a way, related to the Heart. (Maciocia, p. 75) BTW, back when I was very sick, my dreams were like mini-series AND their sequels each night. I had a very severe Blood Deficiency. Something else to think about, in particular regarding this case: " Furthermore any profuse and continuous sweating in a patient with Heart deficiency should be treated without delay, as a loss of sweat implies loss of Body Fluids which, in turn, will lead to a deficiency of Blood because of the coninuous interchange between Blood and Body Fluids. " (Maciocia, p. 75.) Keep in mind that Sam reported that he gets anxious when he sweats. What may be happening is that the sweating is making a Blood Deficiency worse, and because Blood anchors the Mind, the Mind is less anchored and more anxiety results. A reminder for TCM students: If the person is very sensitive to cold, suspect and rule in or rule out Qi Deficiency (and Yang Deficency). If the person is very sensitive to heat, suspect and rule in or out Blood Deficiency (and Yin Deficiency). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Greetings: I recently joined this discussion group. I was happy to find it because I have an ailment that is perplexing and I'm not getting the information needed. This is not painful and is not inhibiting any aspect of my life, but I feel it might have some long term repercussions. Thus I would like to get a proper diagnosis and have it taken care of. A few months ago (last fall) I noticed that I have a lump in my throat, left side. I went to my gp. He thought it was my thyroid and sent me to a pathologist. This dr withdrew about 5 viles of substance from my thyroid ( primarily blood, but it's brownish color led me to believe there is other substances in it. ) It was concluded that it was not cancerous and therefore " nothing serious " . The pathologist said to return, if it became engorged again. It did, and I returned, after Christmas for the same procedure. I'd like to know why this is happening. I don't think this is supposed to be. Blood (etc) is not meant to be collected in thyroid, so I'm wondering why the blockage. Hopefully there is an ans, I haven't found one yet. My gp has not been able to: a. explain the cause b. explain the make-up of the substance b. provide a solution c. suggest some therapies For some reason, he doesn't seem to think it is a good idea for me to go to an endocrinologist. My research on the internet has been interesting but I have not found an answer to why its happening. I understand this is a rare condition. However, it is apparently common enough that some doctors and many alternative practitioners are aware of it. I did find a TCM site with some information on hypothyroidism and a cure, (can give you url). But I would like to find information that is more specifically related to my condition that may, or may not be a result of hypothyroidism. I have some symptoms that I think may be thyroid-related, but not sure because they aren't specifically as identified on sites I've found on the net. My questions are: 1. (all of the above, if any of these issues can be answered) 2. Chinese approach to this phenomena I have more questions but will leave them for later. thank you very much for any help Carol Tierney Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Hi Victoria, I don't mean to criticize you at all, please don't this the wrong way. However, after reading what you wrote below, I found a lot of errors. I don't even know where to begin. One thing I will say: Blood deficiency and yin deficiency has a lot of differences. Blood deficiency will most likely leave the person feeling cold, because without adequate blood, qi cannot warm the body. Blood is the vehicle for qi to move. The Qi and Blood always follow each other... Please don't take the textbooks too literally, they are just a guide to help you learn the basics, but please don't misunderstand them. Very often, disease will not present like the texts, because you can have various combinations of TCM patterns going on at the same time, as each person is so unique. But textbooks have to separate each pattern, this way it is easier to teach the basics. I think it is great that you have such an enthusiasm to learn TCM. Have you ever thought of going to school to learn TCM? I think you would do very well, because you seem extremely intelligent. You are very versed in a lot of Western biomedical info---which is good too, but when you start studying TCM, keep in mind not to let the biomedical info confuse you...you'll know what I mean. Peace and lots of luck, Mei Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon> wrote: > > > A reminder to those new to TCM that the TCM concept of Blood is not > equivalent to anatomical blood. In other words, Western blood tests > can be normal but according to TCM criteria, the person suffers from > Blood Deficiency. (BTW, the reason so many common English words are > captialized in TCM is to convey that there are special definitions > in TCM.) > > TCM defines things according to functions and in terms of how they > are related to other things. The main function of Blood is to > nourish and moistens the body. And one does run into cases where > there are mixed Dryness and Dampness problems because the Spleen is > weak. Keep in mind that the Spleen plays a critical role not only > in Qi accumulation but in the production of Blood. If one has one > because of a weak Spleen, sooner or later the other also will > develop. Sometimes the Qi Deficiency and Dampness symptoms will > predominate - like swollen tongue and oily skin - but sometimes the > Blood Deficiency will predominate - shriveled tongue, dry skin, a > tendency to dehydration and thick blood. (That's thick anatomical > blood. Lab technicians may even have trouble drawing blood on people > with this problem and trouble getting an IV in. Especially if the > person has small veins. Savvy lab technicians sometimes will > instruct such people to tank up on water prior to a blood test in > order to make the drawing of blood easier.) The key determination of > Blood Deficiency rests on are the tissues being nourished and > moistened? > > There is another function of Blood in TCM physiology. It provides a > residence for and anchors the Mind. Yes, I know this sounds very > weird to most Westerners, but bear with me for a while. > > " If the Blood is deficient, the Mind will lack its foundation and so > become unhappy or uneasy. This is typically manifested by > a " deficient restlessness " characterized by a vague anxiety, slight > irritability, and a feeling of dissatisfaction. When we are asleep > at night Blood naturally embraces the Mind, but if Blood is > deficient the Mind " floats " and the person cannot sleep. " (Giovanni > Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 50. > > It is critical that a person with Liver Blood Deficiency gets plenty > of rest lying down. Not just sitting in a chair but lying down. > This causes Blood to return to the Liver where it is regenerated. > The catch-22 is that getting a person to lie down and rest who has > Blood Deficiency and Yin Deficiency reslessness isn't always easy. > The person is restless. > > The Mind, aka Shen, resides in the Heart (Blood) and is anchored by > adequate Blood. " The Blood is the root of the Mind. This concept is > important in practice as Heart-Blood roots and Mind, it embraces it > and achors it, so that the Mind will be peaceful and happy. If > Heart Blood is deficient and does not root the Mind, this will > result in mental restlessness, depression, anxiety and insomnia. > Conversely, mental restlessness, emotional problems and sadness can > induce a deficiency of Blood of the Heart causing palpitations, a > pale complexion and a weak or irregular pulse. " (Maciocia, p. 72.) > > Note how Chinese medicine recognizes that not only can Heart Blood > Deficiency trigger these emotions, but these emotions can trigger > Heart Blood Deficiency. It's a snowballing situation. > > Shen refers specifically to the Mind which resides in the Heart, but > the word also " is used to indicate the whole sphere of emotional, > mental and spiritual aspects of a human being. In this sense, it is > related not only to the Heart, but it encompasses the emotional, > mental and spiritual phenomena of all the other organs, notably the > Yinb organs. (Maciocia, p. 720 (The Yin Organs are the Heart, > Spleen, Lungs, Kidneys, and Liver.) > > " Since the Heart stores the Mind, it is very closely related to > sleep. The Mind should reside in the Heart and if the Heart > (particularly Heart-Blood) is strong, a person will fall asleep > easily and the sleep will be sound. If the Heart is weak, the Mind > has no residnce and it will " float " at night causing inability to > fall asleep, disturbed sleep or excessive dreaming. All dreams > therefore are, in a way, related to the Heart. (Maciocia, p. 75) > > BTW, back when I was very sick, my dreams were like mini-series AND > their sequels each night. I had a very severe Blood Deficiency. > > Something else to think about, in particular regarding this case: > > " Furthermore any profuse and continuous sweating in a patient with > Heart deficiency should be treated without delay, as a loss of sweat > implies loss of Body Fluids which, in turn, will lead to a > deficiency of Blood because of the coninuous interchange between > Blood and Body Fluids. " (Maciocia, p. 75.) > > Keep in mind that Sam reported that he gets anxious when he sweats. > What may be happening is that the sweating is making a Blood > Deficiency worse, and because Blood anchors the Mind, the Mind is > less anchored and more anxiety results. > > A reminder for TCM students: If the person is very sensitive to > cold, suspect and rule in or rule out Qi Deficiency (and Yang > Deficency). If the person is very sensitive to heat, suspect and > rule in or out Blood Deficiency (and Yin Deficiency). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 I'm very glad you went into it deeper. Please keep in mind that there are people on the list who are new to TCM and those who are first year students. So sometimes I don't go into some of the details so as not to confuse them. (But it's ok to go into deeper details for others. It's just that I do a lot of posts for the list members who are new to TCM and the first year students.) A good general rule of thumb IS to suspect Qi (and possibly Yang Deficiency) when the person is very sensitive to cold, and to suspect Blood Deficiency (and Yin Deficiency) when the person is sensitive to heat. You'll note that I said rule in or rule out because other things can cause these things. Like the example you gave of Blood Deficiency sometimes manifesting as limbs feeling cold. Also note that I said " sensitivity to " . Another way I could word this is " bothered by " . What I'm talking about here in large part is environmental conditions and external invasion (though it can also apply to sips of cool water or drinking something hot having more extreme effects on the body in people who are Deficient than in those who are not.) For example I an very sensitive to cold weather. Although I'm also bothered by hot weather somewhat, cold weather has a much more extreme effect on me than hot weather does. For one thing, I slow down a lot more than is normal for people when the weather turns cold. My energy level goes way down when the weather turns cold. I have had some very long-term problems with Kidney Yang Deficiency. I had an aversion to drinking anything but hot soups because even a couple of sips of room temperature water chilled me. In Sam's case, even though he has some problems with cold, he's far more bothered by heat than cold. This points toward Blood Deficiency (and possibly Yin Deficiency). This being bothered a lot by heat fits in with an analysis of Blood Deficiency. It all fits - the being bothered more by heat than by cold but at the same time having cold limbs and a pale complexion. (This is not the only problem he has, but Blood Deficiency accounts for certain symptoms.) Please explain what you consider to be in error in what was posted. That way it can be discussed and elaborated upon. Otherwise many readers are going to be uncertain about all the information. Please keep in mind that I often explain things to those who are new to TCM. Also that when I see a particularly good post by one of the professionals or advanced students that I often will explain basics so those new to TCM can follow along, know that the information is important, and appreciate some of the finer parts of the post. Also, keep in mind that there are several Western health care professionals on the list as well as professional TCM healers. MDs, DOs, chiropractors, nurses, psychologists, etc. Having healers who are experts in " knotty " (complex) problems is increasingly critical. Think of them as specialists. They are the healers that other TCM healers turn to when a case is particularly complex and isn't responding as expected. But in most cases students first have to learn the basic, textbook view of the different imbalances before they can move onto looking at the total picture at once and learning to anaglyze complex cases. I want to make another point for those who are considering becoming TCM students. At first analysis can seem overwhelming. So much to remember. Also, on here, by necessity, analysis is presented as a very slow, laborious, step by step, sometimes going down deadend alleys, flow chart-like process. This is a stage of learning for many people. As you become more familiar and comfortable with the basics, patterns will start to leap out at you. Instead of having to consider each symptom separately - like considering the individual pieces of a jigsaw puzzle and testing to see where each piece will fit - you start to immediately see where certain symptoms and signs fit into patterns. You move from your focus being primarily on the indivdual symptoms and signs and trying to figure out what imbalances they represent to spotting the patterns (imbalances) very quickly. Chinese Traditional Medicine , " mindbodyacupuncture " <mindbodyacupuncture> wrote: > > > Hi Victoria, > I don't mean to criticize you at all, please don't this the wrong way. > However, after reading what you wrote below, I found a lot of errors. > I don't even know where to begin. One thing I will say: Blood > deficiency and yin deficiency has a lot of differences. Blood > deficiency will most likely leave the person feeling cold, because > without adequate blood, qi cannot warm the body. Blood is the vehicle > for qi to move. The Qi and Blood always follow each other... > > Please don't take the textbooks too literally, they are just a guide > to help you learn the basics, but please don't misunderstand them. > Very often, disease will not present like the texts, because you can > have various combinations of TCM patterns going on at the same time, > as each person is so unique. But textbooks have to separate each > pattern, this way it is easier to teach the basics. > I think it is great that you have such an enthusiasm to learn TCM. > Have you ever thought of going to school to learn TCM? I think you > would do very well, because you seem extremely intelligent. You are > very versed in a lot of Western biomedical info---which is good too, > but when you start studying TCM, keep in mind not to let the > biomedical info confuse you...you'll know what I mean. > > Peace and lots of luck, > Mei > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon " > <victoria_dragon> wrote: > > > > > > A reminder to those new to TCM that the TCM concept of Blood is not > > equivalent to anatomical blood. In other words, Western blood tests > > can be normal but according to TCM criteria, the person suffers from > > Blood Deficiency. (BTW, the reason so many common English words are > > captialized in TCM is to convey that there are special definitions > > in TCM.) > > > > TCM defines things according to functions and in terms of how they > > are related to other things. The main function of Blood is to > > nourish and moistens the body. And one does run into cases where > > there are mixed Dryness and Dampness problems because the Spleen is > > weak. Keep in mind that the Spleen plays a critical role not only > > in Qi accumulation but in the production of Blood. If one has one > > because of a weak Spleen, sooner or later the other also will > > develop. Sometimes the Qi Deficiency and Dampness symptoms will > > predominate - like swollen tongue and oily skin - but sometimes the > > Blood Deficiency will predominate - shriveled tongue, dry skin, a > > tendency to dehydration and thick blood. (That's thick anatomical > > blood. Lab technicians may even have trouble drawing blood on people > > with this problem and trouble getting an IV in. Especially if the > > person has small veins. Savvy lab technicians sometimes will > > instruct such people to tank up on water prior to a blood test in > > order to make the drawing of blood easier.) The key determination of > > Blood Deficiency rests on are the tissues being nourished and > > moistened? > > > > There is another function of Blood in TCM physiology. It provides a > > residence for and anchors the Mind. Yes, I know this sounds very > > weird to most Westerners, but bear with me for a while. > > > > " If the Blood is deficient, the Mind will lack its foundation and so > > become unhappy or uneasy. This is typically manifested by > > a " deficient restlessness " characterized by a vague anxiety, slight > > irritability, and a feeling of dissatisfaction. When we are asleep > > at night Blood naturally embraces the Mind, but if Blood is > > deficient the Mind " floats " and the person cannot sleep. " (Giovanni > > Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 50. > > > > It is critical that a person with Liver Blood Deficiency gets plenty > > of rest lying down. Not just sitting in a chair but lying down. > > This causes Blood to return to the Liver where it is regenerated. > > The catch-22 is that getting a person to lie down and rest who has > > Blood Deficiency and Yin Deficiency reslessness isn't always easy. > > The person is restless. > > > > The Mind, aka Shen, resides in the Heart (Blood) and is anchored by > > adequate Blood. " The Blood is the root of the Mind. This concept is > > important in practice as Heart-Blood roots and Mind, it embraces it > > and achors it, so that the Mind will be peaceful and happy. If > > Heart Blood is deficient and does not root the Mind, this will > > result in mental restlessness, depression, anxiety and insomnia. > > Conversely, mental restlessness, emotional problems and sadness can > > induce a deficiency of Blood of the Heart causing palpitations, a > > pale complexion and a weak or irregular pulse. " (Maciocia, p. 72.) > > > > Note how Chinese medicine recognizes that not only can Heart Blood > > Deficiency trigger these emotions, but these emotions can trigger > > Heart Blood Deficiency. It's a snowballing situation. > > > > Shen refers specifically to the Mind which resides in the Heart, but > > the word also " is used to indicate the whole sphere of emotional, > > mental and spiritual aspects of a human being. In this sense, it is > > related not only to the Heart, but it encompasses the emotional, > > mental and spiritual phenomena of all the other organs, notably the > > Yinb organs. (Maciocia, p. 720 (The Yin Organs are the Heart, > > Spleen, Lungs, Kidneys, and Liver.) > > > > " Since the Heart stores the Mind, it is very closely related to > > sleep. The Mind should reside in the Heart and if the Heart > > (particularly Heart-Blood) is strong, a person will fall asleep > > easily and the sleep will be sound. If the Heart is weak, the Mind > > has no residnce and it will " float " at night causing inability to > > fall asleep, disturbed sleep or excessive dreaming. All dreams > > therefore are, in a way, related to the Heart. (Maciocia, p. 75) > > > > BTW, back when I was very sick, my dreams were like mini-series AND > > their sequels each night. I had a very severe Blood Deficiency. > > > > Something else to think about, in particular regarding this case: > > > > " Furthermore any profuse and continuous sweating in a patient with > > Heart deficiency should be treated without delay, as a loss of sweat > > implies loss of Body Fluids which, in turn, will lead to a > > deficiency of Blood because of the coninuous interchange between > > Blood and Body Fluids. " (Maciocia, p. 75.) > > > > Keep in mind that Sam reported that he gets anxious when he sweats. > > What may be happening is that the sweating is making a Blood > > Deficiency worse, and because Blood anchors the Mind, the Mind is > > less anchored and more anxiety results. > > > > A reminder for TCM students: If the person is very sensitive to > > cold, suspect and rule in or rule out Qi Deficiency (and Yang > > Deficency). If the person is very sensitive to heat, suspect and > > rule in or out Blood Deficiency (and Yin Deficiency). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Hi Carol, to reach a diagnosis in western or chinese medicine is 50 per cent of the treatment, as they say, and takes lots of information to get to the 'bottom of things'. All you informed us up to now is that you have a lump in the throat, in the thytoid area(I guess). That is very little, if you read older posts here you will see that there are questions on tongue, puse, skin colour, heat and cold and lots more...But normally(not always), in TCM,'lumps', are phlegm, in this case, non-substantial phlegm under the skin(thyroid), linked with spleen deficiency, with possible lung involvement(throat). There are acupunture points to treat that(like Zhizheng and Pianli), and herbs. Marcos --- ct <ctcomm escreveu: > > Greetings: > > > I recently joined this discussion group. I was happy to find > it because I have an ailment that is perplexing and I'm not > getting the information needed. This is not painful and is not > inhibiting any aspect of my life, but I feel it might have some > long term repercussions. Thus I would like to get a proper > diagnosis and have it taken care of. > > A few months ago (last fall) I noticed that I have a lump in my > throat, left side. I went to my gp. He thought it was my > thyroid and sent me to a pathologist. This dr withdrew about > 5 viles of substance from my thyroid ( primarily blood, but > it's brownish color led me to believe there is other substances > in it. ) It was concluded that it was not cancerous and > therefore " nothing serious " . The pathologist said to return, > if it became engorged again. It did, and I returned, after > Christmas for the same procedure. > > I'd like to know why this is happening. I don't think this is > supposed to be. Blood (etc) is not meant to be collected in > thyroid, so I'm wondering why the blockage. Hopefully there is > an ans, I haven't found one yet. > > My gp has not been able to: > > a. explain the cause > b. explain the make-up of the substance > b. provide a solution > c. suggest some therapies > > For some reason, he doesn't seem to think it is a good idea for > me to go to an endocrinologist. > > My research on the internet has been interesting but I have not > found an answer to why its happening. I understand this is a > rare condition. However, it is apparently common enough that > some doctors and many alternative practitioners are aware of > it. I did find a TCM site with some information on > hypothyroidism and a cure, (can give you url). But I would > like to find information that is more specifically related to > my condition that may, or may not be a result of > hypothyroidism. I have some symptoms that I think may be > thyroid-related, but not sure because they aren't specifically > as identified on sites I've found on the net. > > My questions are: > 1. (all of the above, if any of these issues can be answered) > 2. Chinese approach to this phenomena > > > I have more questions but will leave them for later. > > thank you very much for any help > > > Carol Tierney > Canada > Converse com seus amigos em tempo real com o Messenger http://br.download./messenger/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 > > " Furthermore any profuse and continuous sweating in a patient with > Heart deficiency should be treated without delay, as a loss of sweat > implies loss of Body Fluids which, in turn, will lead to a > deficiency of Blood because of the coninuous interchange between > Blood and Body Fluids. " (Maciocia, p. 75.) > > Keep in mind that Sam reported that he gets anxious when he sweats. > What may be happening is that the sweating is making a Blood > Deficiency worse, and because Blood anchors the Mind, the Mind is > less anchored and more anxiety results. > > A reminder for TCM students: If the person is very sensitive to > cold, suspect and rule in or rule out Qi Deficiency (and Yang > Deficency). If the person is very sensitive to heat, suspect and > rule in or out Blood Deficiency (and Yin Deficiency). Loss of jing fluids will further deplete yin - and yang - this must be supplemented with jing building substances emphasizing the yin side but yang support will also be necessary. Avoid dehydration at all costs - also astringent herbs will help to keep the fluids from flowing out of the body so freely. Inability to hold the fluids is a serious chronic disease and it indicates a severe kidney disorder - as mentioned mainly kidney yin - this must be corrected - consult an expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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