Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Hello Victoria Thank you for your answer. No I have not considered these meridians for I am not knowledgeable enough and I do not know which ones to use; I suppose the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic one; The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close to be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor circulation is obvious) which points do you suggest i could work on ? Thanks Frédéric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2006 Report Share Posted May 26, 2006 Chinese Traditional Medicine , frederic lecut <fredlecut wrote: > > No I have not considered these meridians for I am not knowledgeable enough and I do not know which ones to use; I suppose the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic one; The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close to be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. > There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor circulation is obvious) > which points do you suggest i could work on ? I'm going to quote your original post as well as my answer so list members who are new to TCM and the beginning TCM students can follow along. Frederic: " My father who is 73 has problems with his fingers - at times they swell to the point that he cannot write anymore, at times he has cramps, painful ones, in the thumb, or other fingers. " I was able to quickly releave cramps in a thumb by massaging Large Intestine 4, then cramps in other fingers by massaging middle of the palm. But this only brought releaf and we would like to remove the cause; " Victoria: " Have you considered any points on the Kidney and Spleen meridians? (And maybe the Triple Heater?) Points for Blood Deficiency and Blood Stasis? Possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome with underlying Blood Deficiency and Stasis? " Why am I considering possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Blood Deficiency, and Blood Stasis? Because edema by itself usually is not painful. At least not that painful. The kind of pain that Frederic is describing points to POS and/or Blood Stasis. Suspect Blood Deficiency and rule in or rule out when someone mentions " cramps " . There is not enough Blood reaching the area for Blood to adequately perform its function of moistening and nourishing the tissues. Blood Deficiency can be systemic (there's an overall lack of enough Blood in the body), or it can be localized (something is interfering with enough Blood getting to a specific area). Blood Stasis is one possible cause of not enough Blood reaching an area. But this too is a two-way street. Not enough Blood eventually can result in Blood Stasis. Frederic mentions that his father is 73-years-old. Older people are more prone to Blood Stasis than younger people are. Though younger people also can develop Blood Stasis. However, older people are especially prone to it. There's even a book that traces many of the common problems of aging to Blood Stasis: Aging & Blood Stasis: A New TCM Approach to Geriatrics by Yan De-Xin, translated by Tang Guo- shun & Bob Flaws. The Chinese see Painful Obstruction Syndrome, aka Bi Syndrome, aka arthritis/ rheumatism as being due to invasion by Wind, Cold, and/or Damp. Large Intestine-4 is one of the acupoints for dispel Wind and releasing the Exterior. It " Removes obstructions from the channel " and it " Stimulates the dispersing function of the Lungs. Giovanni Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 376. We can see from Maciocia's description how this point could be very useful in cases of Painful Obstruction Syndrome with a component of Wind Invasion. However, there is something else to consider. LI-4 is a point that gets used a lot in cases of constipation. Refer to the previous post on the Descending of Lung Qi and how problems in the Large Intestine can interfere with the Descending of Lung Qi because it can interfere with abdominal muscles being able to relax and contract in turn. It's also a point that gets used a lot in cases of edema. " The three Yin organs most involved in oedema are the Lungs, Spleen and Kidneys as these are the three organs responsible for dispersing, transforming, transporting and excreting fluids. " (Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of , p. 538.) One of the functions of the Spleen Qi is to " transport and transform " liquids in the body. One of the functions of the Lung Qi is to cause Qi and fluids to Descend. If fluids do not properly Descend, edema can result. Edema can be due to Excess and/or Deficiency. The Deficiency aspect of edema is Spleen and/or Kidney Deficiency, specifically Spleen- Yang Deficiency and/or Kidney-Yang Deficiency. The Excess (aka " Full " , aka " Yang edema " ) includes invasion by Wind - Wind Cold or Wind Heat. This is something that too few Western MDs and DOs have caught onto. That some of the cases of edema they're seeing very much have a weather or other environmental component. The tendency in the West is to think of edema as being due solely to something within the person. " The most important distinction with oedema, as with all other diseases, is that between Full type and Empty type. Oedema of the Full type, also called Yang oedema, derives from external Wind- Water, external Dampness or Fire-Poison. Oedema of the Empty type, also called Yin oedema, arises from a deficiency of the Spleen and/or Kidneys. " (Maciocia, Practice, p. 538.) Maciocia goes on to say that Yang edema can become Yin edema, and vice versa. For example, the retained fluids due to external invasion eventually are going to weakened the Spleen and/or Kidneys, and the characteristic of the edema will switch from Yang edema (Excess) to Yin edema (Deficiency). As a person is assaulted over and over by Exterior Dampness, Yin edema can change to Yang edema. (p. 538). Maciocia then stressed that the edema itself - the manifestation - is classified as Full (Excess). (p. 538.) Any edema is too much; hence, the classification of edema as Excess. When writers talk about edema being Yang/ Full or Yin/ Deficiency, what they are talking about is the Root of the edema. Treatment is going to vary according to what the Root (cause) of the edema is. " From a diagnostic point of view, Yin oedema is characterized by marked pitting on pressure, with the skin being very slow to bounce back to normal. In Yang oedema there is little or no pitting on pressure. " (p. 538.) Why do I suspect Wind as a factor? Because Frederick's description is of something that moves. " (A)t times he has cramps, painful ones, in the thumb, or other fingers. " But that kind of pain is not coming from just Wind alone. There is Cold and/or Damp involved. Or Blood Stasis. Here are the points Maciocia recommends for Yang edema: Large Intstine-4, Triple Burner-5, Bladder- 12, and Bladder- 13 " release the Exteior, expel Wind and restroe the Lung's dispersing nad descending function. " (Note the mention of the Lung's descending function " .) Large Intestine - 6 " opens the Water passages and resolves acute oedema of the upper limbs and face. Large Intestine-10 " is an important local point for the arms, used here to resolve oedema. " Du-26 is used as a local point for facial oedema. The old name of this point was Shuigou which means " water ditch " . Ren-17 stimulates the descending of Lung-Qi. " ( " Ren " is the Conception Vessel that runs up the center of the front of the body; " Du " is the Governing Vessel that runs up the center of the back.) (Again, not the mention of " descending of Lung-Qi " .) Stomach-36 " harmonizes Nutritive and Defensive Qi and removes fluids from the space between skin and muscles. " (p. 539.) I also would mention that St-36 not only strengthens the Stomach, it strengthens the Spleen as well. This is a point which covers any underlying Deficiency of the Spleen as well as the Excess manifestation. Over in the chapter on Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Maciocia says, " Pain and swelling of the fingers is a common complaint. It is usually due to Cold or Damp Painful Obstruction Syndrome, and is frequently caused by prolonged exposure to cold water or rain over many years (e.g. farmers or cleaners). " (p. 597.) Maciocia recommends the following points (I'm leaving out the needling technique as you said you're using massage): Large Intestine-3 - " expels Wind, Cold and Dampness from the fingers. " Triple Burner-3 " also expels Wind, Cold, and Dampness from the finger. It is also effective for Heat Painful Obstruction Syndrome. " Small Intestine-3 " expels Wind from the finger. " (I want to point out that this also is an important point for treating headaches caused by Wind Cold or Wind Heat. These are the points he gives for acute cases. With chronic cases he recommends those plus: Triple Burner-5 " is an important adjacent point for Painful Obstruction Syndrome of the fingers. It expels Wind and stimulates the ciruclation of Qi and Blood in the fingers. " (It will help any local Qi Stagnation and Blood Stasis problems.) Lung 7 " can be used especially when the pain is located mostly along the base of the thumb. This occurs frequently in old people when the invasion of pathogenic factors is combined with a decline of Qi affecting the Lung channel. In young people it occurs in piano or flute players. " Small Intestine-5 " is effective in expelling Dampness and is therefore particularly useful when the fingers are swollen. " (p. 597.) Lung 7 is one of those points that get used so often that beginning students may want to go ahead and study it in some detail. Please remember that very important Dispersal and Descending of Qi and fluids. There is something else that needs to be mentioned in regards to Lu-7: " In my experience, LU-7 is a very important point from the psychological and emotional point of view, and can be used in emotional problems caused by worry, grief or sadness. LU-7 is particularly indicated in cases in which the person bears his or her problems in silence and keeps them inside. LU-7 tends to stimulate a beneficial outpouring of repressed emotions. Weeping is the sound associated with the Lungs acording to the 5 Elements, and those who have been suppressing their emotions may burst out crying when this point is used or shortly after. " (p. 372.) In other words, don't be surprised if a client starts crying. It doesn't always happen, but sometimes it does. You may need to reassure clients that this reaction is healing and a sign the treatment is working. In addition, for cases of Qi not Descending properly, the point Kidney-27 (or Kidney-25) may need to be used. When it comes to the proper Descending of Qi, the Lungs and Kidneys work together. The Kidneys have to be able to " Receive " or " Grasp " the Qi that the Lungs send down. If they aren't, this is a condition called " Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi " or " Kidneys Refusing to Grasp Qi " . Usually, there will be breathing problems. The condition is a special case of Kidney Yang Deficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2006 Report Share Posted May 26, 2006 Victoria Thank you for this outstanding answer. I do appreciate greqtly the time and effort spent on it. I will study and take action on Monday when I see my fqther again, And will let you know the result Frédéric >victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon >May 26, 2006 4:07 PM >Chinese Traditional Medicine >[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: swollen fingers - cramps > >Chinese Traditional Medicine , frederic lecut ><fredlecut wrote: >> > >> No I have not considered these meridians for I am not >knowledgeable enough and� I do not know which ones to use; I suppose >the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic one; >The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close to >be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. >> There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor circulation is >obvious) >> which points do you suggest i could work on ? > >I'm going to quote your original post as well as my answer so list >members who are new to TCM and the beginning TCM students can follow >along. > >Frederic: " My father who is 73 has problems with his fingers - at >times they swell to the >point that he cannot write anymore, at times he has cramps, painful >ones, in the >thumb, or other fingers. > > " I was able to quickly releave cramps in a thumb by massaging Large >Intestine 4, >then cramps in other fingers by massaging middle of the palm. But >this only >brought releaf and we would like to remove the cause; " > >Victoria: " Have you considered any points on the Kidney and Spleen >meridians? >(And maybe the Triple Heater?) Points for Blood Deficiency and Blood >Stasis? Possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome with underlying Blood >Deficiency and Stasis? " > >Why am I considering possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Blood >Deficiency, and Blood Stasis?� Because edema by itself usually is >not painful. At least not that painful. The kind of pain that >Frederic is describing points to POS and/or Blood Stasis. > >Suspect Blood Deficiency and rule in or rule out when someone >mentions " cramps " . There is not enough Blood reaching the area for >Blood to adequately perform its function of moistening and >nourishing the tissues.� Blood Deficiency can be systemic (there's >an overall lack of enough Blood in the body), or it can be localized >(something is interfering with enough Blood getting to a specific >area). Blood Stasis is one possible cause of not enough Blood >reaching an area.� But this too is a two-way street.� Not enough >Blood eventually can result in Blood Stasis. > >Frederic mentions that his father is 73-years-old. Older people are >more prone to Blood Stasis than younger people are.� Though younger >people also can develop Blood Stasis. However, older people are >especially prone to it.� There's even a book that traces many of the >common problems of aging to Blood Stasis:� Aging & Blood Stasis: A >New TCM Approach to Geriatrics by Yan De-Xin, translated by Tang Guo- >shun & Bob Flaws. > >The Chinese see Painful Obstruction Syndrome, aka Bi Syndrome, aka >arthritis/ rheumatism as being due to invasion by Wind, Cold, and/or >Damp. Large Intestine-4 is one of the acupoints for dispel Wind and >releasing the Exterior. It " Removes obstructions from the channel " >and it " Stimulates the dispersing function of the Lungs. Giovanni >Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 376. > >We can see from Maciocia's description how this point could be very >useful in cases of Painful Obstruction Syndrome with a component of >Wind Invasion. However, there is something else to consider. LI-4 is >a point that gets used a lot in cases of constipation. Refer to the >previous post on the Descending of Lung Qi and how problems in the >Large Intestine can interfere with the Descending of Lung Qi because >it can interfere with abdominal muscles being able to relax and >contract in turn.� It's also a point that gets used a lot in cases >of edema. > > " The three Yin organs most involved in oedema are the Lungs, Spleen >and Kidneys as these are the three organs responsible for >dispersing, transforming, transporting and excreting fluids. " >(Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of , p. 538.) One >of the functions of the Spleen Qi is to " transport and transform " >liquids in the body.� One of the functions of the Lung Qi is to >cause Qi and fluids to Descend. If fluids do not properly Descend, >edema can result. > >Edema can be due to Excess and/or Deficiency. The Deficiency aspect >of edema is Spleen and/or Kidney Deficiency, specifically Spleen- >Yang Deficiency and/or Kidney-Yang Deficiency. > >The Excess (aka " Full " , aka " Yang edema " ) includes invasion by Wind - > Wind Cold or Wind Heat. This is something that too few Western MDs >and DOs have caught onto.� That some of the cases of edema they're >seeing very much have a weather or other environmental component. >The tendency in the West is to think of edema as being due solely to >something within the person. > > " The most important distinction with oedema, as with all other >diseases, is that between Full type and Empty type.� Oedema of the >Full type, also called Yang oedema, derives from external Wind- >Water, external Dampness or Fire-Poison.� Oedema of the Empty type, >also called Yin oedema, arises from a deficiency of the Spleen >and/or Kidneys. " (Maciocia, Practice, p. 538.) > >Maciocia goes on to say that Yang edema can become Yin edema, and >vice versa. For example, the retained fluids due to external >invasion eventually are going to weakened the Spleen and/or Kidneys, >and the characteristic of the edema will switch from Yang edema� >(Excess) to Yin edema (Deficiency). As a person is assaulted over >and over by Exterior Dampness, Yin edema can change to Yang edema. >(p. 538). > >Maciocia then stressed that the edema itself - the manifestation - >is classified as Full (Excess).� (p. 538.) Any edema is too much; >hence, the classification of edema as Excess. When writers talk >about edema being Yang/ Full or Yin/ Deficiency, what they are >talking about is the Root of the edema. Treatment is going to vary >according to what the Root (cause) of the edema is. > > " From a diagnostic point of view, Yin oedema is characterized by >marked pitting on pressure, with the skin being very slow to bounce >back to normal.� In Yang oedema there is little or no pitting on >pressure. " (p. 538.) > >Why do I suspect Wind as a factor?� Because Frederick's description >is of something that moves. " (A)t times he has cramps, painful ones, >in the thumb, or other fingers. " But that kind of pain is not coming >from just Wind alone.� There is Cold and/or Damp involved. Or Blood >Stasis. > >Here are the points Maciocia recommends for Yang edema: > >Large Intstine-4, Triple Burner-5, Bladder- 12, and Bladder- >13 " release the Exteior, expel Wind and restroe the Lung's >dispersing nad descending function. " � (Note the mention of the >Lung's descending function " .) > >Large Intestine - 6 " opens the Water passages and resolves acute >oedema of the upper limbs and face. > >Large Intestine-10 " is an important local point for the arms, used >here to resolve oedema. > > " Du-26 is used as a local point for facial oedema.� The old name of >this point was Shuigou which means " water ditch " . > >Ren-17 stimulates the descending of Lung-Qi. " ( " Ren " is the >Conception Vessel that runs up the center of the front of the >body; " Du " is the Governing Vessel that runs up the center of the >back.) (Again, not the mention of " descending of Lung-Qi " .) > >Stomach-36 " harmonizes Nutritive and Defensive Qi and removes fluids >from the space between skin and muscles. " (p. 539.) I also would >mention that St-36 not only strengthens the Stomach, it strengthens >the Spleen as well. This is a point which covers any underlying >Deficiency of the Spleen as well as the Excess manifestation. > >Over in the chapter on Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Maciocia >says, " Pain and swelling of the fingers is a common complaint.� It >is usually due to Cold or Damp Painful Obstruction Syndrome, and is >frequently caused by prolonged exposure to cold water or rain over >many years (e.g. farmers or cleaners). " (p. 597.) > >Maciocia recommends the following points (I'm leaving out the >needling technique as you said you're using massage): > >Large Intestine-3 - " expels Wind, Cold and Dampness from the >fingers. " > >Triple Burner-3 " also expels Wind, Cold, and Dampness from the >finger.� It is also effective for Heat Painful Obstruction Syndrome. " > >Small Intestine-3 " expels Wind from the finger. " (I want to point >out that this also is an important point for treating headaches >caused by Wind Cold or Wind Heat. > >These are the points he gives for acute cases.� With chronic cases >he recommends those plus: > >Triple Burner-5 " is an important adjacent point for Painful >Obstruction Syndrome of the fingers.� It expels Wind and stimulates >the ciruclation of Qi and Blood in the fingers. " (It will help any >local Qi Stagnation and Blood Stasis problems.) > >Lung 7 " can be used especially when the pain is located mostly along >the base of the thumb.� This occurs frequently in old people when >the invasion of pathogenic factors is combined with a decline of Qi >affecting the Lung channel.� In young people it occurs in piano or >flute players. " > >Small Intestine-5 " is effective in expelling Dampness and is >therefore particularly useful when the fingers are swollen. " (p. >597.) > >Lung 7 is one of those points that get used so often that beginning >students may want to go ahead and study it in some detail. Please >remember that very important Dispersal and Descending of Qi and >fluids. There is something else that needs to be mentioned in >regards to Lu-7: > > " In my experience, LU-7 is a very important point from the >psychological and emotional point of view, and can be used in >emotional problems caused by worry, grief or sadness. LU-7 is >particularly indicated in cases in which the person bears his or her >problems in silence and keeps them inside.� LU-7 tends to stimulate >a beneficial outpouring of repressed emotions.� Weeping is the sound >associated with the Lungs acording to the 5 Elements, and those who >have been suppressing their emotions may burst out crying when this >point is used or shortly after. " (p. 372.) In other words, don't be >surprised if a client starts crying. It doesn't always happen, but >sometimes it does. You may need to reassure clients that this >reaction is healing and a sign the treatment is working. > >In addition, for cases of Qi not Descending properly, the point >Kidney-27 (or Kidney-25) may need to be used.� When it comes to the >proper Descending of Qi, the Lungs and Kidneys work together. The >Kidneys have to be able to " Receive " or " Grasp " the Qi that the >Lungs send down. If they aren't, this is a condition called " Kidneys >Refusing to Receive Qi " or " Kidneys Refusing to Grasp Qi " .� Usually, >there will be breathing problems. The condition is a special case of >Kidney Yang Deficiency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >� Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine >� Subscribe:��� Chinese Traditional Medicine- >� Un:� Chinese Traditional Medicine- >� List owner:�� Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner > >Shortcut URL to this page: >� /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 Massage also the Ting points, on the tips of the fingers. Very good. Marcos --- victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon escreveu: > Chinese Traditional Medicine , frederic lecut > <fredlecut wrote: > > > > > No I have not considered these meridians for I am not > knowledgeable enough and I do not know which ones to use; I > suppose > the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic > one; > The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close > to > be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. > > There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor > circulation is > obvious) > > which points do you suggest i could work on ? > > I'm going to quote your original post as well as my answer so > list > members who are new to TCM and the beginning TCM students can > follow > along. > > Frederic: " My father who is 73 has problems with his fingers - > at > times they swell to the > point that he cannot write anymore, at times he has cramps, > painful > ones, in the > thumb, or other fingers. > > " I was able to quickly releave cramps in a thumb by massaging > Large > Intestine 4, > then cramps in other fingers by massaging middle of the palm. > But > this only > brought releaf and we would like to remove the cause; " > > Victoria: " Have you considered any points on the Kidney and > Spleen > meridians? > (And maybe the Triple Heater?) Points for Blood Deficiency and > Blood > Stasis? Possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome with underlying > Blood > Deficiency and Stasis? " > > Why am I considering possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome, > Blood > Deficiency, and Blood Stasis? Because edema by itself usually > is > not painful. At least not that painful. The kind of pain that > Frederic is describing points to POS and/or Blood Stasis. > > Suspect Blood Deficiency and rule in or rule out when someone > mentions " cramps " . There is not enough Blood reaching the area > for > Blood to adequately perform its function of moistening and > nourishing the tissues. Blood Deficiency can be systemic > (there's > an overall lack of enough Blood in the body), or it can be > localized > (something is interfering with enough Blood getting to a > specific > area). Blood Stasis is one possible cause of not enough Blood > reaching an area. But this too is a two-way street. Not > enough > Blood eventually can result in Blood Stasis. > > Frederic mentions that his father is 73-years-old. Older people > are > more prone to Blood Stasis than younger people are. Though > younger > people also can develop Blood Stasis. However, older people are > > especially prone to it. There's even a book that traces many > of the > common problems of aging to Blood Stasis: Aging & Blood > Stasis: A > New TCM Approach to Geriatrics by Yan De-Xin, translated by > Tang Guo- > shun & Bob Flaws. > > The Chinese see Painful Obstruction Syndrome, aka Bi Syndrome, > aka > arthritis/ rheumatism as being due to invasion by Wind, Cold, > and/or > Damp. Large Intestine-4 is one of the acupoints for dispel Wind > and > releasing the Exterior. It " Removes obstructions from the > channel " > and it " Stimulates the dispersing function of the Lungs. > Giovanni > Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 376. > > We can see from Maciocia's description how this point could be > very > useful in cases of Painful Obstruction Syndrome with a > component of > Wind Invasion. However, there is something else to consider. > LI-4 is > a point that gets used a lot in cases of constipation. Refer to > the > previous post on the Descending of Lung Qi and how problems in > the > Large Intestine can interfere with the Descending of Lung Qi > because > it can interfere with abdominal muscles being able to relax and > > contract in turn. It's also a point that gets used a lot in > cases > of edema. > > " The three Yin organs most involved in oedema are the Lungs, > Spleen > and Kidneys as these are the three organs responsible for > dispersing, transforming, transporting and excreting fluids. " > (Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of , p. 538.) > One > of the functions of the Spleen Qi is to " transport and > transform " > liquids in the body. One of the functions of the Lung Qi is to > > cause Qi and fluids to Descend. If fluids do not properly > Descend, > edema can result. > > Edema can be due to Excess and/or Deficiency. The Deficiency > aspect > of edema is Spleen and/or Kidney Deficiency, specifically > Spleen- > Yang Deficiency and/or Kidney-Yang Deficiency. > > The Excess (aka " Full " , aka " Yang edema " ) includes invasion by > Wind - > Wind Cold or Wind Heat. This is something that too few Western > MDs > and DOs have caught onto. That some of the cases of edema > they're > seeing very much have a weather or other environmental > component. > The tendency in the West is to think of edema as being due > solely to > something within the person. > > " The most important distinction with oedema, as with all other > diseases, is that between Full type and Empty type. Oedema of > the > Full type, also called Yang oedema, derives from external Wind- > Water, external Dampness or Fire-Poison. Oedema of the Empty > type, > also called Yin oedema, arises from a deficiency of the Spleen > and/or Kidneys. " (Maciocia, Practice, p. 538.) > > Maciocia goes on to say that Yang edema can become Yin edema, > and > vice versa. For example, the retained fluids due to external > invasion eventually are going to weakened the Spleen and/or > Kidneys, > and the characteristic of the edema will switch from Yang edema > > (Excess) to Yin edema (Deficiency). As a person is assaulted > over > and over by Exterior Dampness, Yin edema can change to Yang > edema. > (p. 538). > > Maciocia then stressed that the edema itself - the > manifestation - > is classified as Full (Excess). (p. 538.) Any edema is too > much; > hence, the classification of edema as Excess. When writers talk > > about edema being Yang/ Full or Yin/ Deficiency, what they are > talking about is the Root of the edema. Treatment is going to > vary > according to what the Root (cause) of the edema is. > > " From a diagnostic point of view, Yin oedema is characterized > by > marked pitting on pressure, with the skin being very slow to > bounce > back to normal. In Yang oedema there is little or no pitting > on > pressure. " (p. 538.) > > Why do I suspect Wind as a factor? Because Frederick's > description > is of something that moves. " (A)t times he has cramps, painful > ones, > in the thumb, or other fingers. " But that kind of pain is not > coming > from just Wind alone. There is Cold and/or Damp involved. Or > Blood > Stasis. > > Here are the points Maciocia recommends for Yang edema: > > Large Intstine-4, Triple Burner-5, Bladder- 12, and Bladder- > 13 " release the Exteior, expel Wind and restroe the Lung's > === message truncated === _____ Novidade no Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu celular. Registre seu aparelho agora! http://br.mobile./mailalertas/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Based on Victoria's mail, this is what I did : 1 - I found some acupuncture needles 2 - Monday afternoon, I worked on Large Intestine - 6 Large Intestine-10 Stomach-36 Large Intestine-3 - Triple Burner-3 Small Intestine-3 Triple Burner-5 Lung 7 Insertion 2 to 6 mm, twirl 2 or 3 times over 1/2 hour. The result was amazing : 1/2 hour after the treatment, the edema was reduced, 3 hours after, the edema was gone, and all sign of blood stasis equally gone (purple color of the fiongers), and my Father could write again. Which he seldom had been able to do in the last 6 month. The improvement lasted until tyhe next morning. After breakfast, the edema appeared again, then the purple color.Could the edema provoke the blood stasis ? 3 - I did the same points on Tuesday afternoon, + LI4. Good result also, but not as spectacular as on Monday. By Thursday evening, the problem was preesent again, and I am not there to try to work on it (I came back to the US, my Father lives in France, but he has taken an appointment with a Doctor in Chinese Medecine in Paris... Victoria, I wanted to thank you profusely for your help, I really appreciate the time and effort to get this tigether. For it worked very well, and helped convince my father of the power of acupuncture and Chinese Medecine. THank you again Frederic victoria_dragon wrote: > Chinese Traditional Medicine , frederic lecut > <fredlecut wrote: > > > > > No I have not considered these meridians for I am not > knowledgeable enough and I do not know which ones to use; I suppose > the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic one; > The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close to > be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. > > There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor circulation is > obvious) > > which points do you suggest i could work on ? > > I'm going to quote your original post as well as my answer so list > members who are new to TCM and the beginning TCM students can follow > along. > > Frederic: " My father who is 73 has problems with his fingers - at > times they swell to the > point that he cannot write anymore, at times he has cramps, painful > ones, in the > thumb, or other fingers. > > " I was able to quickly releave cramps in a thumb by massaging Large > Intestine 4, > then cramps in other fingers by massaging middle of the palm. But > this only > brought releaf and we would like to remove the cause; " > > Victoria: " Have you considered any points on the Kidney and Spleen > meridians? > (And maybe the Triple Heater?) Points for Blood Deficiency and Blood > Stasis? Possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome with underlying Blood > Deficiency and Stasis? " > > Why am I considering possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Blood > Deficiency, and Blood Stasis? Because edema by itself usually is > not painful. At least not that painful. The kind of pain that > Frederic is describing points to POS and/or Blood Stasis. > > Suspect Blood Deficiency and rule in or rule out when someone > mentions " cramps " . There is not enough Blood reaching the area for > Blood to adequately perform its function of moistening and > nourishing the tissues. Blood Deficiency can be systemic (there's > an overall lack of enough Blood in the body), or it can be localized > (something is interfering with enough Blood getting to a specific > area). Blood Stasis is one possible cause of not enough Blood > reaching an area. But this too is a two-way street. Not enough > Blood eventually can result in Blood Stasis. > > Frederic mentions that his father is 73-years-old. Older people are > more prone to Blood Stasis than younger people are. Though younger > people also can develop Blood Stasis. However, older people are > especially prone to it. There's even a book that traces many of the > common problems of aging to Blood Stasis: Aging & Blood Stasis: A > New TCM Approach to Geriatrics by Yan De-Xin, translated by Tang Guo- > shun & Bob Flaws. > > The Chinese see Painful Obstruction Syndrome, aka Bi Syndrome, aka > arthritis/ rheumatism as being due to invasion by Wind, Cold, and/or > Damp. Large Intestine-4 is one of the acupoints for dispel Wind and > releasing the Exterior. It " Removes obstructions from the channel " > and it " Stimulates the dispersing function of the Lungs. Giovanni > Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 376. > > We can see from Maciocia's description how this point could be very > useful in cases of Painful Obstruction Syndrome with a component of > Wind Invasion. However, there is something else to consider. LI-4 is > a point that gets used a lot in cases of constipation. Refer to the > previous post on the Descending of Lung Qi and how problems in the > Large Intestine can interfere with the Descending of Lung Qi because > it can interfere with abdominal muscles being able to relax and > contract in turn. It's also a point that gets used a lot in cases > of edema. > > " The three Yin organs most involved in oedema are the Lungs, Spleen > and Kidneys as these are the three organs responsible for > dispersing, transforming, transporting and excreting fluids. " > (Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of , p. 538.) One > of the functions of the Spleen Qi is to " transport and transform " > liquids in the body. One of the functions of the Lung Qi is to > cause Qi and fluids to Descend. If fluids do not properly Descend, > edema can result. > > Edema can be due to Excess and/or Deficiency. The Deficiency aspect > of edema is Spleen and/or Kidney Deficiency, specifically Spleen- > Yang Deficiency and/or Kidney-Yang Deficiency. > > The Excess (aka " Full " , aka " Yang edema " ) includes invasion by Wind - > Wind Cold or Wind Heat. This is something that too few Western MDs > and DOs have caught onto. That some of the cases of edema they're > seeing very much have a weather or other environmental component. > The tendency in the West is to think of edema as being due solely to > something within the person. > > " The most important distinction with oedema, as with all other > diseases, is that between Full type and Empty type. Oedema of the > Full type, also called Yang oedema, derives from external Wind- > Water, external Dampness or Fire-Poison. Oedema of the Empty type, > also called Yin oedema, arises from a deficiency of the Spleen > and/or Kidneys. " (Maciocia, Practice, p. 538.) > > Maciocia goes on to say that Yang edema can become Yin edema, and > vice versa. For example, the retained fluids due to external > invasion eventually are going to weakened the Spleen and/or Kidneys, > and the characteristic of the edema will switch from Yang edema > (Excess) to Yin edema (Deficiency). As a person is assaulted over > and over by Exterior Dampness, Yin edema can change to Yang edema. > (p. 538). > > Maciocia then stressed that the edema itself - the manifestation - > is classified as Full (Excess). (p. 538.) Any edema is too much; > hence, the classification of edema as Excess. When writers talk > about edema being Yang/ Full or Yin/ Deficiency, what they are > talking about is the Root of the edema. Treatment is going to vary > according to what the Root (cause) of the edema is. > > " From a diagnostic point of view, Yin oedema is characterized by > marked pitting on pressure, with the skin being very slow to bounce > back to normal. In Yang oedema there is little or no pitting on > pressure. " (p. 538.) > > Why do I suspect Wind as a factor? Because Frederick's description > is of something that moves. " (A)t times he has cramps, painful ones, > in the thumb, or other fingers. " But that kind of pain is not coming > from just Wind alone. There is Cold and/or Damp involved. Or Blood > Stasis. > > Here are the points Maciocia recommends for Yang edema: > > Large Intstine-4, Triple Burner-5, Bladder- 12, and Bladder- > 13 " release the Exteior, expel Wind and restroe the Lung's > dispersing nad descending function. " (Note the mention of the > Lung's descending function " .) > > Large Intestine - 6 " opens the Water passages and resolves acute > oedema of the upper limbs and face. > > Large Intestine-10 " is an important local point for the arms, used > here to resolve oedema. > > " Du-26 is used as a local point for facial oedema. The old name of > this point was Shuigou which means " water ditch " . > > Ren-17 stimulates the descending of Lung-Qi. " ( " Ren " is the > Conception Vessel that runs up the center of the front of the > body; " Du " is the Governing Vessel that runs up the center of the > back.) (Again, not the mention of " descending of Lung-Qi " .) > > Stomach-36 " harmonizes Nutritive and Defensive Qi and removes fluids > from the space between skin and muscles. " (p. 539.) I also would > mention that St-36 not only strengthens the Stomach, it strengthens > the Spleen as well. This is a point which covers any underlying > Deficiency of the Spleen as well as the Excess manifestation. > > Over in the chapter on Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Maciocia > says, " Pain and swelling of the fingers is a common complaint. It > is usually due to Cold or Damp Painful Obstruction Syndrome, and is > frequently caused by prolonged exposure to cold water or rain over > many years (e.g. farmers or cleaners). " (p. 597.) > > Maciocia recommends the following points (I'm leaving out the > needling technique as you said you're using massage): > > Large Intestine-3 - " expels Wind, Cold and Dampness from the > fingers. " > > Triple Burner-3 " also expels Wind, Cold, and Dampness from the > finger. It is also effective for Heat Painful Obstruction Syndrome. " > > Small Intestine-3 " expels Wind from the finger. " (I want to point > out that this also is an important point for treating headaches > caused by Wind Cold or Wind Heat. > > These are the points he gives for acute cases. With chronic cases > he recommends those plus: > > Triple Burner-5 " is an important adjacent point for Painful > Obstruction Syndrome of the fingers. It expels Wind and stimulates > the ciruclation of Qi and Blood in the fingers. " (It will help any > local Qi Stagnation and Blood Stasis problems.) > > Lung 7 " can be used especially when the pain is located mostly along > the base of the thumb. This occurs frequently in old people when > the invasion of pathogenic factors is combined with a decline of Qi > affecting the Lung channel. In young people it occurs in piano or > flute players. " > > Small Intestine-5 " is effective in expelling Dampness and is > therefore particularly useful when the fingers are swollen. " (p. > 597.) > > Lung 7 is one of those points that get used so often that beginning > students may want to go ahead and study it in some detail. Please > remember that very important Dispersal and Descending of Qi and > fluids. There is something else that needs to be mentioned in > regards to Lu-7: > > " In my experience, LU-7 is a very important point from the > psychological and emotional point of view, and can be used in > emotional problems caused by worry, grief or sadness. LU-7 is > particularly indicated in cases in which the person bears his or her > problems in silence and keeps them inside. LU-7 tends to stimulate > a beneficial outpouring of repressed emotions. Weeping is the sound > associated with the Lungs acording to the 5 Elements, and those who > have been suppressing their emotions may burst out crying when this > point is used or shortly after. " (p. 372.) In other words, don't be > surprised if a client starts crying. It doesn't always happen, but > sometimes it does. You may need to reassure clients that this > reaction is healing and a sign the treatment is working. > > In addition, for cases of Qi not Descending properly, the point > Kidney-27 (or Kidney-25) may need to be used. When it comes to the > proper Descending of Qi, the Lungs and Kidneys work together. The > Kidneys have to be able to " Receive " or " Grasp " the Qi that the > Lungs send down. If they aren't, this is a condition called " Kidneys > Refusing to Receive Qi " or " Kidneys Refusing to Grasp Qi " . Usually, > there will be breathing problems. The condition is a special case of > Kidney Yang Deficiency. > > > > > > > Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine > Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- > Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- > List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Hi Frederic. Hope your father is much improved. Yes, edema can trigger Blood Stasis and Qi Stagnation and vice versa. Could something your father is eating be aggravating the problem? Chinese Traditional Medicine , Frederic Lecut <fredlecut wrote: > > Based on Victoria's mail, this is what I did : > 1 - I found some acupuncture needles > 2 - Monday afternoon, I worked on > Large Intestine - 6 > Large Intestine-10 > Stomach-36 > Large Intestine-3 - > Triple Burner-3 > Small Intestine-3 > Triple Burner-5 > Lung 7 > > Insertion 2 to 6 mm, twirl 2 or 3 times over 1/2 hour. > > The result was amazing : 1/2 hour after the treatment, the edema was > reduced, 3 hours after, the edema was gone, and all sign of blood stasis > equally gone (purple color of the fiongers), and my Father could write > again. Which he seldom had been able to do in the last 6 month. > The improvement lasted until tyhe next morning. After breakfast, the > edema appeared again, then the purple color.Could the edema provoke the > blood stasis ? > 3 - I did the same points on Tuesday afternoon, + LI4. > Good result also, but not as spectacular as on Monday. > > By Thursday evening, the problem was preesent again, and I am not there > to try to work on it (I came back to the US, my Father lives in France, > but he has taken an appointment with a Doctor in Chinese Medecine in > Paris... > > > > Victoria, I wanted to thank you profusely for your help, I really > appreciate the time and effort to get this tigether. For it worked very > well, and helped convince my father of the power of acupuncture and > Chinese Medecine. > > THank you again > Frederic > > > > victoria_dragon wrote: > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , frederic lecut > > <fredlecut@> wrote: > > > > > > > > No I have not considered these meridians for I am not > > knowledgeable enough and I do not know which ones to use; I suppose > > the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic one; > > The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close to > > be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. > > > There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor circulation is > > obvious) > > > which points do you suggest i could work on ? > > > > I'm going to quote your original post as well as my answer so list > > members who are new to TCM and the beginning TCM students can follow > > along. > > > > Frederic: " My father who is 73 has problems with his fingers - at > > times they swell to the > > point that he cannot write anymore, at times he has cramps, painful > > ones, in the > > thumb, or other fingers. > > > > " I was able to quickly releave cramps in a thumb by massaging Large > > Intestine 4, > > then cramps in other fingers by massaging middle of the palm. But > > this only > > brought releaf and we would like to remove the cause; " > > > > Victoria: " Have you considered any points on the Kidney and Spleen > > meridians? > > (And maybe the Triple Heater?) Points for Blood Deficiency and Blood > > Stasis? Possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome with underlying Blood > > Deficiency and Stasis? " > > > > Why am I considering possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Blood > > Deficiency, and Blood Stasis? Because edema by itself usually is > > not painful. At least not that painful. The kind of pain that > > Frederic is describing points to POS and/or Blood Stasis. > > > > Suspect Blood Deficiency and rule in or rule out when someone > > mentions " cramps " . There is not enough Blood reaching the area for > > Blood to adequately perform its function of moistening and > > nourishing the tissues. Blood Deficiency can be systemic (there's > > an overall lack of enough Blood in the body), or it can be localized > > (something is interfering with enough Blood getting to a specific > > area). Blood Stasis is one possible cause of not enough Blood > > reaching an area. But this too is a two-way street. Not enough > > Blood eventually can result in Blood Stasis. > > > > Frederic mentions that his father is 73-years-old. Older people are > > more prone to Blood Stasis than younger people are. Though younger > > people also can develop Blood Stasis. However, older people are > > especially prone to it. There's even a book that traces many of the > > common problems of aging to Blood Stasis: Aging & Blood Stasis: A > > New TCM Approach to Geriatrics by Yan De-Xin, translated by Tang Guo- > > shun & Bob Flaws. > > > > The Chinese see Painful Obstruction Syndrome, aka Bi Syndrome, aka > > arthritis/ rheumatism as being due to invasion by Wind, Cold, and/or > > Damp. Large Intestine-4 is one of the acupoints for dispel Wind and > > releasing the Exterior. It " Removes obstructions from the channel " > > and it " Stimulates the dispersing function of the Lungs. Giovanni > > Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 376. > > > > We can see from Maciocia's description how this point could be very > > useful in cases of Painful Obstruction Syndrome with a component of > > Wind Invasion. However, there is something else to consider. LI- 4 is > > a point that gets used a lot in cases of constipation. Refer to the > > previous post on the Descending of Lung Qi and how problems in the > > Large Intestine can interfere with the Descending of Lung Qi because > > it can interfere with abdominal muscles being able to relax and > > contract in turn. It's also a point that gets used a lot in cases > > of edema. > > > > " The three Yin organs most involved in oedema are the Lungs, Spleen > > and Kidneys as these are the three organs responsible for > > dispersing, transforming, transporting and excreting fluids. " > > (Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of , p. 538.) One > > of the functions of the Spleen Qi is to " transport and transform " > > liquids in the body. One of the functions of the Lung Qi is to > > cause Qi and fluids to Descend. If fluids do not properly Descend, > > edema can result. > > > > Edema can be due to Excess and/or Deficiency. The Deficiency aspect > > of edema is Spleen and/or Kidney Deficiency, specifically Spleen- > > Yang Deficiency and/or Kidney-Yang Deficiency. > > > > The Excess (aka " Full " , aka " Yang edema " ) includes invasion by Wind - > > Wind Cold or Wind Heat. This is something that too few Western MDs > > and DOs have caught onto. That some of the cases of edema they're > > seeing very much have a weather or other environmental component. > > The tendency in the West is to think of edema as being due solely to > > something within the person. > > > > " The most important distinction with oedema, as with all other > > diseases, is that between Full type and Empty type. Oedema of the > > Full type, also called Yang oedema, derives from external Wind- > > Water, external Dampness or Fire-Poison. Oedema of the Empty type, > > also called Yin oedema, arises from a deficiency of the Spleen > > and/or Kidneys. " (Maciocia, Practice, p. 538.) > > > > Maciocia goes on to say that Yang edema can become Yin edema, and > > vice versa. For example, the retained fluids due to external > > invasion eventually are going to weakened the Spleen and/or Kidneys, > > and the characteristic of the edema will switch from Yang edema > > (Excess) to Yin edema (Deficiency). As a person is assaulted over > > and over by Exterior Dampness, Yin edema can change to Yang edema. > > (p. 538). > > > > Maciocia then stressed that the edema itself - the manifestation - > > is classified as Full (Excess). (p. 538.) Any edema is too much; > > hence, the classification of edema as Excess. When writers talk > > about edema being Yang/ Full or Yin/ Deficiency, what they are > > talking about is the Root of the edema. Treatment is going to vary > > according to what the Root (cause) of the edema is. > > > > " From a diagnostic point of view, Yin oedema is characterized by > > marked pitting on pressure, with the skin being very slow to bounce > > back to normal. In Yang oedema there is little or no pitting on > > pressure. " (p. 538.) > > > > Why do I suspect Wind as a factor? Because Frederick's description > > is of something that moves. " (A)t times he has cramps, painful ones, > > in the thumb, or other fingers. " But that kind of pain is not coming > > from just Wind alone. There is Cold and/or Damp involved. Or Blood > > Stasis. > > > > Here are the points Maciocia recommends for Yang edema: > > > > Large Intstine-4, Triple Burner-5, Bladder- 12, and Bladder- > > 13 " release the Exteior, expel Wind and restroe the Lung's > > dispersing nad descending function. " (Note the mention of the > > Lung's descending function " .) > > > > Large Intestine - 6 " opens the Water passages and resolves acute > > oedema of the upper limbs and face. > > > > Large Intestine-10 " is an important local point for the arms, used > > here to resolve oedema. > > > > " Du-26 is used as a local point for facial oedema. The old name of > > this point was Shuigou which means " water ditch " . > > > > Ren-17 stimulates the descending of Lung-Qi. " ( " Ren " is the > > Conception Vessel that runs up the center of the front of the > > body; " Du " is the Governing Vessel that runs up the center of the > > back.) (Again, not the mention of " descending of Lung-Qi " .) > > > > Stomach-36 " harmonizes Nutritive and Defensive Qi and removes fluids > > from the space between skin and muscles. " (p. 539.) I also would > > mention that St-36 not only strengthens the Stomach, it strengthens > > the Spleen as well. This is a point which covers any underlying > > Deficiency of the Spleen as well as the Excess manifestation. > > > > Over in the chapter on Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Maciocia > > says, " Pain and swelling of the fingers is a common complaint. It > > is usually due to Cold or Damp Painful Obstruction Syndrome, and is > > frequently caused by prolonged exposure to cold water or rain over > > many years (e.g. farmers or cleaners). " (p. 597.) > > > > Maciocia recommends the following points (I'm leaving out the > > needling technique as you said you're using massage): > > > > Large Intestine-3 - " expels Wind, Cold and Dampness from the > > fingers. " > > > > Triple Burner-3 " also expels Wind, Cold, and Dampness from the > > finger. It is also effective for Heat Painful Obstruction Syndrome. " > > > > Small Intestine-3 " expels Wind from the finger. " (I want to point > > out that this also is an important point for treating headaches > > caused by Wind Cold or Wind Heat. > > > > These are the points he gives for acute cases. With chronic cases > > he recommends those plus: > > > > Triple Burner-5 " is an important adjacent point for Painful > > Obstruction Syndrome of the fingers. It expels Wind and stimulates > > the ciruclation of Qi and Blood in the fingers. " (It will help any > > local Qi Stagnation and Blood Stasis problems.) > > > > Lung 7 " can be used especially when the pain is located mostly along > > the base of the thumb. This occurs frequently in old people when > > the invasion of pathogenic factors is combined with a decline of Qi > > affecting the Lung channel. In young people it occurs in piano or > > flute players. " > > > > Small Intestine-5 " is effective in expelling Dampness and is > > therefore particularly useful when the fingers are swollen. " (p. > > 597.) > > > > Lung 7 is one of those points that get used so often that beginning > > students may want to go ahead and study it in some detail. Please > > remember that very important Dispersal and Descending of Qi and > > fluids. There is something else that needs to be mentioned in > > regards to Lu-7: > > > > " In my experience, LU-7 is a very important point from the > > psychological and emotional point of view, and can be used in > > emotional problems caused by worry, grief or sadness. LU-7 is > > particularly indicated in cases in which the person bears his or her > > problems in silence and keeps them inside. LU-7 tends to stimulate > > a beneficial outpouring of repressed emotions. Weeping is the sound > > associated with the Lungs acording to the 5 Elements, and those who > > have been suppressing their emotions may burst out crying when this > > point is used or shortly after. " (p. 372.) In other words, don't be > > surprised if a client starts crying. It doesn't always happen, but > > sometimes it does. You may need to reassure clients that this > > reaction is healing and a sign the treatment is working. > > > > In addition, for cases of Qi not Descending properly, the point > > Kidney-27 (or Kidney-25) may need to be used. When it comes to the > > proper Descending of Qi, the Lungs and Kidneys work together. The > > Kidneys have to be able to " Receive " or " Grasp " the Qi that the > > Lungs send down. If they aren't, this is a condition called " Kidneys > > Refusing to Receive Qi " or " Kidneys Refusing to Grasp Qi " . Usually, > > there will be breathing problems. The condition is a special case of > > Kidney Yang Deficiency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- > > Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- > > List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 Hello Victoria I am now back in the US. My Father lives in France. His diet is very reasonable and balanced in my opinion. He drinks tea in the morning and I had thought this could drain some of his minerals, hence the cramps, so I suggested that he quits for a while, but he did not like the idea. Are certain food conducive to this kind of situation ? Actually, my father is also hyupocondriac, and sometimes it is difficult to know what is wrong, and what is really wrong. But in this case, I know that he was really handicapped. Also one point I am not sure I had mentioned in my posting is a certain sadness on his part. I cannot say that he is pessimistic, simplu rather sad, with no apparent reason. He did not use to be like this. He has an appointment with a TCM Doctor of good reputation next monday, and I am very hopeful this gentleman will be able to help him. Once again, thank you for your precious help. Frederic victoria_dragon wrote: > Hi Frederic. > > Hope your father is much improved. > > Yes, edema can trigger Blood Stasis and Qi Stagnation and vice versa. > > Could something your father is eating be aggravating the problem? > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, Frederic Lecut > <fredlecut wrote: > > > > Based on Victoria's mail, this is what I did : > > 1 - I found some acupuncture needles > > 2 - Monday afternoon, I worked on > > Large Intestine - 6 > > Large Intestine-10 > > Stomach-36 > > Large Intestine-3 - > > Triple Burner-3 > > Small Intestine-3 > > Triple Burner-5 > > Lung 7 > > > > Insertion 2 to 6 mm, twirl 2 or 3 times over 1/2 hour. > > > > The result was amazing : 1/2 hour after the treatment, the edema > was > > reduced, 3 hours after, the edema was gone, and all sign of blood > stasis > > equally gone (purple color of the fiongers), and my Father could > write > > again. Which he seldom had been able to do in the last 6 month. > > The improvement lasted until tyhe next morning. After breakfast, > the > > edema appeared again, then the purple color.Could the edema > provoke the > > blood stasis ? > > 3 - I did the same points on Tuesday afternoon, + LI4. > > Good result also, but not as spectacular as on Monday. > > > > By Thursday evening, the problem was preesent again, and I am not > there > > to try to work on it (I came back to the US, my Father lives in > France, > > but he has taken an appointment with a Doctor in Chinese Medecine > in > > Paris... > > > > > > > > Victoria, I wanted to thank you profusely for your help, I really > > appreciate the time and effort to get this tigether. For it worked > very > > well, and helped convince my father of the power of acupuncture > and > > Chinese Medecine. > > > > THank you again > > Frederic > > > > > > > > victoria_dragon wrote: > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>, frederic lecut > > > <fredlecut@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > No I have not considered these meridians for I am not > > > knowledgeable enough and I do not know which ones to use; I > suppose > > > the ones I used has a mechanical effects rather than energetic > one; > > > The one in the middle of the palm is Pericardium 8, it is close > to > > > be opposed to the Triple Heater 3, but this is all i know. > > > > There probably is blood deficiency and stasis (poor > circulation is > > > obvious) > > > > which points do you suggest i could work on ? > > > > > > I'm going to quote your original post as well as my answer so > list > > > members who are new to TCM and the beginning TCM students can > follow > > > along. > > > > > > Frederic: " My father who is 73 has problems with his fingers - at > > > times they swell to the > > > point that he cannot write anymore, at times he has cramps, > painful > > > ones, in the > > > thumb, or other fingers. > > > > > > " I was able to quickly releave cramps in a thumb by massaging > Large > > > Intestine 4, > > > then cramps in other fingers by massaging middle of the palm. But > > > this only > > > brought releaf and we would like to remove the cause; " > > > > > > Victoria: " Have you considered any points on the Kidney and > Spleen > > > meridians? > > > (And maybe the Triple Heater?) Points for Blood Deficiency and > Blood > > > Stasis? Possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome with underlying > Blood > > > Deficiency and Stasis? " > > > > > > Why am I considering possible Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Blood > > > Deficiency, and Blood Stasis? Because edema by itself usually is > > > not painful. At least not that painful. The kind of pain that > > > Frederic is describing points to POS and/or Blood Stasis. > > > > > > Suspect Blood Deficiency and rule in or rule out when someone > > > mentions " cramps " . There is not enough Blood reaching the area > for > > > Blood to adequately perform its function of moistening and > > > nourishing the tissues. Blood Deficiency can be systemic > (there's > > > an overall lack of enough Blood in the body), or it can be > localized > > > (something is interfering with enough Blood getting to a specific > > > area). Blood Stasis is one possible cause of not enough Blood > > > reaching an area. But this too is a two-way street. Not enough > > > Blood eventually can result in Blood Stasis. > > > > > > Frederic mentions that his father is 73-years-old. Older people > are > > > more prone to Blood Stasis than younger people are. Though > younger > > > people also can develop Blood Stasis. However, older people are > > > especially prone to it. There's even a book that traces many of > the > > > common problems of aging to Blood Stasis: Aging & Blood Stasis: > A > > > New TCM Approach to Geriatrics by Yan De-Xin, translated by Tang > Guo- > > > shun & Bob Flaws. > > > > > > The Chinese see Painful Obstruction Syndrome, aka Bi Syndrome, > aka > > > arthritis/ rheumatism as being due to invasion by Wind, Cold, > and/or > > > Damp. Large Intestine-4 is one of the acupoints for dispel Wind > and > > > releasing the Exterior. It " Removes obstructions from the > channel " > > > and it " Stimulates the dispersing function of the Lungs. Giovanni > > > Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 376. > > > > > > We can see from Maciocia's description how this point could be > very > > > useful in cases of Painful Obstruction Syndrome with a component > of > > > Wind Invasion. However, there is something else to consider. LI- > 4 is > > > a point that gets used a lot in cases of constipation. Refer to > the > > > previous post on the Descending of Lung Qi and how problems in > the > > > Large Intestine can interfere with the Descending of Lung Qi > because > > > it can interfere with abdominal muscles being able to relax and > > > contract in turn. It's also a point that gets used a lot in > cases > > > of edema. > > > > > > " The three Yin organs most involved in oedema are the Lungs, > Spleen > > > and Kidneys as these are the three organs responsible for > > > dispersing, transforming, transporting and excreting fluids. " > > > (Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of , p. 538.) > One > > > of the functions of the Spleen Qi is to " transport and transform " > > > liquids in the body. One of the functions of the Lung Qi is to > > > cause Qi and fluids to Descend. If fluids do not properly > Descend, > > > edema can result. > > > > > > Edema can be due to Excess and/or Deficiency. The Deficiency > aspect > > > of edema is Spleen and/or Kidney Deficiency, specifically Spleen- > > > Yang Deficiency and/or Kidney-Yang Deficiency. > > > > > > The Excess (aka " Full " , aka " Yang edema " ) includes invasion by > Wind - > > > Wind Cold or Wind Heat. This is something that too few Western > MDs > > > and DOs have caught onto. That some of the cases of edema > they're > > > seeing very much have a weather or other environmental component. > > > The tendency in the West is to think of edema as being due > solely to > > > something within the person. > > > > > > " The most important distinction with oedema, as with all other > > > diseases, is that between Full type and Empty type. Oedema of > the > > > Full type, also called Yang oedema, derives from external Wind- > > > Water, external Dampness or Fire-Poison. Oedema of the Empty > type, > > > also called Yin oedema, arises from a deficiency of the Spleen > > > and/or Kidneys. " (Maciocia, Practice, p. 538.) > > > > > > Maciocia goes on to say that Yang edema can become Yin edema, and > > > vice versa. For example, the retained fluids due to external > > > invasion eventually are going to weakened the Spleen and/or > Kidneys, > > > and the characteristic of the edema will switch from Yang edema > > > (Excess) to Yin edema (Deficiency). As a person is assaulted over > > > and over by Exterior Dampness, Yin edema can change to Yang > edema. > > > (p. 538). > > > > > > Maciocia then stressed that the edema itself - the > manifestation - > > > is classified as Full (Excess). (p. 538.) Any edema is too much; > > > hence, the classification of edema as Excess. When writers talk > > > about edema being Yang/ Full or Yin/ Deficiency, what they are > > > talking about is the Root of the edema. Treatment is going to > vary > > > according to what the Root (cause) of the edema is. > > > > > > " From a diagnostic point of view, Yin oedema is characterized by > > > marked pitting on pressure, with the skin being very slow to > bounce > > > back to normal. In Yang oedema there is little or no pitting on > > > pressure. " (p. 538.) > > > > > > Why do I suspect Wind as a factor? Because Frederick's > description > > > is of something that moves. " (A)t times he has cramps, painful > ones, > > > in the thumb, or other fingers. " But that kind of pain is not > coming > > > from just Wind alone. There is Cold and/or Damp involved. Or > Blood > > > Stasis. > > > > > > Here are the points Maciocia recommends for Yang edema: > > > > > > Large Intstine-4, Triple Burner-5, Bladder- 12, and Bladder- > > > 13 " release the Exteior, expel Wind and restroe the Lung's > > > dispersing nad descending function. " (Note the mention of the > > > Lung's descending function " .) > > > > > > Large Intestine - 6 " opens the Water passages and resolves acute > > > oedema of the upper limbs and face. > > > > > > Large Intestine-10 " is an important local point for the arms, > used > > > here to resolve oedema. > > > > > > " Du-26 is used as a local point for facial oedema. The old name > of > > > this point was Shuigou which means " water ditch " . > > > > > > Ren-17 stimulates the descending of Lung-Qi. " ( " Ren " is the > > > Conception Vessel that runs up the center of the front of the > > > body; " Du " is the Governing Vessel that runs up the center of the > > > back.) (Again, not the mention of " descending of Lung-Qi " .) > > > > > > Stomach-36 " harmonizes Nutritive and Defensive Qi and removes > fluids > > > from the space between skin and muscles. " (p. 539.) I also would > > > mention that St-36 not only strengthens the Stomach, it > strengthens > > > the Spleen as well. This is a point which covers any underlying > > > Deficiency of the Spleen as well as the Excess manifestation. > > > > > > Over in the chapter on Painful Obstruction Syndrome, Maciocia > > > says, " Pain and swelling of the fingers is a common complaint. > It > > > is usually due to Cold or Damp Painful Obstruction Syndrome, and > is > > > frequently caused by prolonged exposure to cold water or rain > over > > > many years (e.g. farmers or cleaners). " (p. 597.) > > > > > > Maciocia recommends the following points (I'm leaving out the > > > needling technique as you said you're using massage): > > > > > > Large Intestine-3 - " expels Wind, Cold and Dampness from the > > > fingers. " > > > > > > Triple Burner-3 " also expels Wind, Cold, and Dampness from the > > > finger. It is also effective for Heat Painful Obstruction > Syndrome. " > > > > > > Small Intestine-3 " expels Wind from the finger. " (I want to point > > > out that this also is an important point for treating headaches > > > caused by Wind Cold or Wind Heat. > > > > > > These are the points he gives for acute cases. With chronic > cases > > > he recommends those plus: > > > > > > Triple Burner-5 " is an important adjacent point for Painful > > > Obstruction Syndrome of the fingers. It expels Wind and > stimulates > > > the ciruclation of Qi and Blood in the fingers. " (It will help > any > > > local Qi Stagnation and Blood Stasis problems.) > > > > > > Lung 7 " can be used especially when the pain is located mostly > along > > > the base of the thumb. This occurs frequently in old people when > > > the invasion of pathogenic factors is combined with a decline of > Qi > > > affecting the Lung channel. In young people it occurs in piano > or > > > flute players. " > > > > > > Small Intestine-5 " is effective in expelling Dampness and is > > > therefore particularly useful when the fingers are swollen. " (p. > > > 597.) > > > > > > Lung 7 is one of those points that get used so often that > beginning > > > students may want to go ahead and study it in some detail. Please > > > remember that very important Dispersal and Descending of Qi and > > > fluids. There is something else that needs to be mentioned in > > > regards to Lu-7: > > > > > > " In my experience, LU-7 is a very important point from the > > > psychological and emotional point of view, and can be used in > > > emotional problems caused by worry, grief or sadness. LU-7 is > > > particularly indicated in cases in which the person bears his or > her > > > problems in silence and keeps them inside. LU-7 tends to > stimulate > > > a beneficial outpouring of repressed emotions. Weeping is the > sound > > > associated with the Lungs acording to the 5 Elements, and those > who > > > have been suppressing their emotions may burst out crying when > this > > > point is used or shortly after. " (p. 372.) In other words, don't > be > > > surprised if a client starts crying. It doesn't always happen, > but > > > sometimes it does. You may need to reassure clients that this > > > reaction is healing and a sign the treatment is working. > > > > > > In addition, for cases of Qi not Descending properly, the point > > > Kidney-27 (or Kidney-25) may need to be used. When it comes to > the > > > proper Descending of Qi, the Lungs and Kidneys work together. The > > > Kidneys have to be able to " Receive " or " Grasp " the Qi that the > > > Lungs send down. If they aren't, this is a condition called " > Kidneys > > > Refusing to Receive Qi " or " Kidneys Refusing to Grasp Qi " . > Usually, > > > there will be breathing problems. The condition is a special > case of > > > Kidney Yang Deficiency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine > <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> > > > Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- > <Chinese Traditional Medicine-%40> > > > Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- > <Chinese Traditional Medicine-%40> > > > List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner > <Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner%40> > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine > </community/Chinese Traditional Medicine> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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