Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi all. I found that some cases of Interstitial Cystitis (without bacteria) were connected to imbalance between Ren and Du Mai, due to the contact of upper and lower incisives; I suggest that - because incisives have not to touch together(upper with lower)- this may cause a sort of " congestion " between the channels, that cause another kind of energetical congestion at the beginning of them, in Hui Yin; this can give pain sensation in bladder (dysuria, cystalgia and so on). I found only six cases with this problems. All of them, after dental treatment (bite) never had more cystic pain. In december, the 28th, 2003 a 29 years old lady presented true cystitis (with bacteria) in the past four months. All antibioticals trials failed. I found no contact in the teeth, but visiting her, she asked why I was testing her teeth. I explained her my theory and she told me that, just two weeks before the beginning of cystitis, she had a dental intervention, with a " screw " (just behind GV 28!) for a further future prosthesis; as I injected Procaine 1% in the gum, while I was giving her the drug, the pain disappeared, thus confirming my theory. Of course I sent her to the dentist, who found a small abscess, and healed it, without (at the present time) any cystic symptom more.I think it could be very important in some IC, not in all cases, of course. Thank you for your kind attention, Gabriel Saudelli, Italy -----Messaggio originale----- Da: heylaurag [heylaurag] Inviato: martedì 1 giugno 2004 0.52 A: Chinese Medicine Oggetto: Re: To Holger Hi Holger, If you respond to this post maybe you should email me directly so we don't bother others, my email is: heylaurag So where are you from (you said English isn't your primary language)? This story is really convoluted (in other words, complex and moving in many directions), so I can imagine how hard it would be to follow in a second language! So I will try to be clear: I don't really have " stabbing pain " , I wrote that I slept ON a needle which was in Ren 4, so it was stabbing me at the time that the incident happened. See? I used the word, " Stabbing " so that people would know that I actually slept ON the needle (other practitioners that I have seen have often thought that I just slept through the night with the needle in me, so I was trying to be clear). IC is interstitial cystitis. It is different from a urinary tract infection because there is no infection, but you feel the pain as if you have an infection and you urinate frequently. It is an inflammation of the lining of the bladder. I had this problem when I was 20 years old, but TCM worked to get rid of it. But ever since I slept on the needle it has been back, worse than ever. And every evening during the bladder time I get a coating on the back of my tongue, which I don't have at any other time of the day. The coating on my tongue started after I slept on the needle also. I think that you are right that there is a deficiency and an excess pathogen at the same time. For one thing, I had a dampcold stomach EPI at the time, so I drained the EPI with herbs through my traumatized bladder. I also wonder about blood stagnation from the trauma of sleeping on a needle. The thing that confuses me about this idea of " balancing yin and yang " in Richard Tan is that I then wonder if I need to eg: use a yang point on the other side of the body if I've used a yin point on the other. But I think it just means that I use a paired yang channel point if there is yin channel pain, and vise versa. Right? Thanks for the additional tips. I will try them and let you know how it goes! Laura Chinese Medicine , Holger Wendt <holger.wendt@t...> wrote: > Hi Laura > ... > > and I wanted to tell you that it is cold. > Stabbing pain usually is blood stagnation and most often in my > experience caused by cold. > > > I know > > that IC is generally heat, but mine has always been cold (I had IC > > years before the incident, but had been healed by TCM (eg: moxa on > > Kidney 3 helped) until this happened). > I must have lost the beginning somewhere. You mean when you slept on > the needle? > What do you think happened as a result of that? A " vacuity " that > invited a patogen factor? > > And please clarify for me as english is not my first language; what is > IC? > > > Also, I've tried some of the > > points that you talked about, and I wanted to ask you a question > > about them. I use Richard Tan points a lot with great success, but I > > don't feel like I have a deep understanding of the theory. > > the theories by Tan are always based on a balancing of Yin and Yang as > I see it. > He balances Tai Yin with Tai yang, hand with foot, anterior with > posterior, Shao Yang with Shao Yin eg. and every other possible way of > balancing. > > The legs and arms as mirrors of the abdomen is one way that also > connects with the ECIWO idea (look it up on the internet) of a distinct > part heving its own embryonic life and therefore also reflecting the > whole. > > By the way a location close to Hegu-LI4 could also be used as the 2nd > metacarpal bone is used a lot in ECIWO (wonder if it starts to throb > now?) as a reflexion of the whole body (head at the distal end, feet at > the proximal end). If so Ren 4 should be located close to that bone, > midway between the ends. > > > I've used > > mirror points along the SI by the elbow and one on the dorsum of the > > hand at a " ren 4 " location. Actually after I first read your ideas > > both areas started to throb, aching to be needled! The treatment was > > helpful. Should I just needle one side, and if so should it be the > > more achey side (I'm assuming that is correct)? > > I think so to, more painful is probably a good indication > But maybe you can needle both > or moxa there > > > Also, should I use > > points on the other side to balance the treatment? Dr. Tan often > > talks in his books about adding points to the other side to balance, > > but I don't think I understand the theory well. > I never read his books, only attended a seminar. But in the case of > using the hand as a reflexion of the body, my experience is it is > enough to use one hand. Of course you can alternate. > > > > Thanks again for your time! > > > > Laura > > > You are welcome > and I enjoy it when you do! > > Holger > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Gabriele Thanks for that information. I do in fact have dental problems. I smoked in my youth, and one of the ways that I quit was to replace the habit of smoking with chewing a lot of gum, thus I wound up with a lot of cavities, including a few root canals. But I've been to the dentist and from their perspective everything has been taken care of. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Dott. Gabriele Saudelli " <gabrielesaudelli@t...> wrote: > Hi all. > I found that some cases of Interstitial Cystitis (without bacteria) were > connected to imbalance between Ren and Du Mai, due to the contact of upper > and lower incisives; I suggest that - because incisives have not to touch > together(upper with lower)- this may cause a sort of " congestion " between > the channels, that cause another kind of energetical congestion at the > beginning of them, in Hui Yin; this can give pain sensation in bladder > (dysuria, cystalgia and so on). I found only six cases with this problems. > All of them, after dental treatment (bite) never had more cystic pain. In > december, the 28th, 2003 a 29 years old lady presented true cystitis (with > bacteria) in the past four months. All antibioticals trials failed. I found > no contact in the teeth, but visiting her, she asked why I was testing her > teeth. I explained her my theory and she told me that, just two weeks before > the beginning of cystitis, she had a dental intervention, with a " screw " > (just behind GV 28!) for a further future prosthesis; as I injected Procaine > 1% in the gum, while I was giving her the drug, the pain disappeared, thus > confirming my theory. Of course I sent her to the dentist, who found a small > abscess, and healed it, without (at the present time) any cystic symptom > more.I think it could be very important in some IC, not in all cases, of > course. > Thank you for your kind attention, > Gabriel Saudelli, Italy > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: heylaurag [heylaurag@h...] > Inviato: martedì 1 giugno 2004 0.52 > A: Chinese Medicine > Oggetto: Re: To Holger > > > Hi Holger, > > If you respond to this post maybe you should email me directly so we > don't bother others, my email is: heylaurag@h... > > So where are you from (you said English isn't your primary > language)? This story is really convoluted (in other words, complex > and moving in many directions), so I can imagine how hard it would be > to follow in a second language! So I will try to be clear: I don't > really have " stabbing pain " , I wrote that I slept ON a needle which > was in Ren 4, so it was stabbing me at the time that the incident > happened. See? I used the word, " Stabbing " so that people would > know that I actually slept ON the needle (other practitioners that I > have seen have often thought that I just slept through the night with > the needle in me, so I was trying to be clear). > > IC is interstitial cystitis. It is different from a urinary tract > infection because there is no infection, but you feel the pain as if > you have an infection and you urinate frequently. It is an > inflammation of the lining of the bladder. I had this problem when I > was 20 years old, but TCM worked to get rid of it. But ever since I > slept on the needle it has been back, worse than ever. And every > evening during the bladder time I get a coating on the back of my > tongue, which I don't have at any other time of the day. The coating > on my tongue started after I slept on the needle also. > > I think that you are right that there is a deficiency and an excess > pathogen at the same time. For one thing, I had a dampcold stomach > EPI at the time, so I drained the EPI with herbs through my > traumatized bladder. I also wonder about blood stagnation from the > trauma of sleeping on a needle. > > The thing that confuses me about this idea of " balancing yin and > yang " in Richard Tan is that I then wonder if I need to eg: use a > yang point on the other side of the body if I've used a yin point on > the other. But I think it just means that I use a paired yang > channel point if there is yin channel pain, and vise versa. Right? > > Thanks for the additional tips. I will try them and let you know how > it goes! > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Holger Wendt > <holger.wendt@t...> wrote: > > Hi Laura > > ... > > > and I wanted to tell you that it is cold. > > Stabbing pain usually is blood stagnation and most often in my > > experience caused by cold. > > > > > I know > > > that IC is generally heat, but mine has always been cold (I had IC > > > years before the incident, but had been healed by TCM (eg: moxa on > > > Kidney 3 helped) until this happened). > > I must have lost the beginning somewhere. You mean when you slept > on > > the needle? > > What do you think happened as a result of that? A " vacuity " that > > invited a patogen factor? > > > > And please clarify for me as english is not my first language; what > is > > IC? > > > > > Also, I've tried some of the > > > points that you talked about, and I wanted to ask you a question > > > about them. I use Richard Tan points a lot with great success, > but I > > > don't feel like I have a deep understanding of the theory. > > > > the theories by Tan are always based on a balancing of Yin and Yang > as > > I see it. > > He balances Tai Yin with Tai yang, hand with foot, anterior with > > posterior, Shao Yang with Shao Yin eg. and every other possible way > of > > balancing. > > > > The legs and arms as mirrors of the abdomen is one way that also > > connects with the ECIWO idea (look it up on the internet) of a > distinct > > part heving its own embryonic life and therefore also reflecting > the > > whole. > > > > By the way a location close to Hegu-LI4 could also be used as the > 2nd > > metacarpal bone is used a lot in ECIWO (wonder if it starts to > throb > > now?) as a reflexion of the whole body (head at the distal end, > feet at > > the proximal end). If so Ren 4 should be located close to that > bone, > > midway between the ends. > > > > > I've used > > > mirror points along the SI by the elbow and one on the dorsum of > the > > > hand at a " ren 4 " location. Actually after I first read your > ideas > > > both areas started to throb, aching to be needled! The treatment > was > > > helpful. Should I just needle one side, and if so should it be > the > > > more achey side (I'm assuming that is correct)? > > > > I think so to, more painful is probably a good indication > > But maybe you can needle both > > or moxa there > > > > > Also, should I use > > > points on the other side to balance the treatment? Dr. Tan often > > > talks in his books about adding points to the other side to > balance, > > > but I don't think I understand the theory well. > > I never read his books, only attended a seminar. But in the case of > > using the hand as a reflexion of the body, my experience is it is > > enough to use one hand. Of course you can alternate. > > > > > > Thanks again for your time! > > > > > > Laura > > > > > You are welcome > > and I enjoy it when you do! > > > > Holger > > > > > > > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, > spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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