Guest guest Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 How does one differentiate? The phlegm pulse should be slippery, but at times scripture describes it as wiry. Clinically, both look perilously the same, but one may moxa the damp to dry it, and not the phlegm. If phlegm, which is by half Fire, feels Heat, it will dislodge and rise and cause mischief. And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole is more than the parts. Please share your experiences. How to differentiate in terms of pulse, tongue and palpatory findings? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > How does one differentiate? > > The phlegm pulse should be slippery, but at times scripture describes it as > wiry. Scripture??? Phlegm and damp yes can share the same pulse qualities. > > Clinically, both look perilously the same, but one may moxa the damp to dry > it, > and not the phlegm. I disagree... > > If phlegm, which is by half Fire, feels Heat, it will dislodge and rise and > cause mischief. Not true.. Phlegm can be hot or cold. > > And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole is more than the > parts. What are yuou getting at? can you reiterate. > > Please share your experiences. How to differentiate in terms of pulse, > tongue > and palpatory findings? I think you need to look at some basic theory on phlem and damp, I suggest Clavey's book " Fluid physiology " or just Wiseman intro text to Chinese MEdicial theory, or of course his dictionary has some basic descriptions. Hope this helps... - > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 > > Scripture??? > texts, pulse classic > > Clinically, both look perilously the same, but one may moxa the damp > > to dry it, and not the phlegm. > > I disagree... > can you elaborate? > > If phlegm, which is by half Fire, feels Heat, it will dislodge and > > rise and > > cause mischief. > > Not true.. Phlegm can be hot or cold. > > OK, cold phlegm when heated may rise and go wayward. > > And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole is more than the > > parts. > > What are yuou getting at? can you reiterate. > > what am I getting at? I am not getting at anything other than having a clinical discussion. Deadman: In cases of phlegm always LU and SP are culpable. > > Please share your experiences. How to differentiate in terms of pulse, > > tongue > > and palpatory findings? > > > I think you need to look at some basic theory on phlem and damp, I > suggest Clavey's book " Fluid physiology " or just Wiseman intro text to > Chinese MEdicial theory, or of course his dictionary has some basic > descriptions. Hope this helps... not really. I wanted the rich experience of TCM professionals, not more textx. I have always been intrigued with the phlegm-damp connection, and don't think I know as much as I should. I wanted others to share. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > > > > Clinically, both look perilously the same, but one may moxa the damp > > > to dry it, and not the phlegm. > > > > I disagree... > > > > can you elaborate? It is very simple it is just not true...People moxa phlegm conditions all the time. > > > > > If phlegm, which is by half Fire, feels Heat, it will dislodge and > > > rise and > > > cause mischief. > > > > Not true.. Phlegm can be hot or cold. > > > > > > OK, cold phlegm when heated may rise and go wayward. I have to ask where is this coming from...? Basic theory states you apply heat to counteract cold and this is certainly true for cold-phlegm. > > > > > And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole is more than the > > > parts. > > > > What are yuou getting at? can you reiterate. > > > > > what am I getting at? > I am not getting at anything other than having a clinical discussion. > > Deadman: In cases of phlegm always LU and SP are culpable. Well deadman says this, but of course there is so much more that just that,... That is totally oversimplified... I just didn't understand your statement " And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole is more than the parts. " - I don't understand what you are getting at... > > > I think you need to look at some basic theory on phlem and damp, I > > suggest Clavey's book " Fluid physiology " or just Wiseman intro text to > > Chinese MEdicial theory, or of course his dictionary has some basic > > descriptions. Hope this helps... > > not really. I wanted the rich experience of TCM professionals, not more > textx. > > I have always been intrigued with the phlegm-damp connection, and don't > think I know as much as I should. Well this is very interesting to me... You don't want to read the fundamental basics of a topic that you don't understand, yet you are making things up about it, like phlegm has heat, and if you moxa it goes wayward, or even if you heat phlegm-cold it will rise and go wayward.. etc, etc… What is this??? Please tell me what the source is for `your' ideas. IMO, here is the downside... You just want someone's clinical experience. Chinese medicine has a very sound theoretical framework that supports it. If you have a clinical discussion with people that DO NOT have this framework, you get statements and ideas like what you are talking about. And this is just MSUing… This is like 10 monkey's standing around a rocket and discussing how it was made. Or more correctly I should point out that if you do not have the fundamental understanding of a CM concept, you will have no conceptual model to make sense of clinical experience (by you or others). Or if you have completely wrong model then clinical information will be distorted and be misfiled. But you are right, phlegm-damp is an interesting topic. It is so interesting that I have a 400 page book in Chinese (about 1200 pages in English). Meaning there is simple black and white answers to many issues, BUT there are clearly fundamental definitions etc that one should know to discuss such a topic. Remember that traditionally doctors memorized a teacher's texts before studying with them, I suggest you check out the basic theories on phlegm and damp and then if you have some questions I am sure I and others would be happy to engage… Respectfully, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 In Chinese medicine, one term is tan yin or phlegm-rheum (or thin mucus, according to Clavey). They are usually used together, and are mainly caused by failure of the qi to transform the clear yang and turbid yin, leading to accumulation of fluids (rheum), that eventually thicken and form phlegm. Phlegm and rheum are further broken down into sub-categories, such as suspended rheum, damp phlegm, dryness phlegm, etc. Shi or dampness is a more generalized concept, referring to the overall phenomena of dampness as an evil in the body. It can gather in the body and form phlegm over time, but it can also be related to other phenomena such as diarrhea, sweating, urination, edema, etc. On Jul 18, 2004, at 9:03 AM, homi kaikobad wrote: > I have always been intrigued with the phlegm-damp connection, and don't > think I know as much as I should. > > I wanted others to share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " > <aryaone@e...> wrote: > > > > > > > Clinically, both look perilously the same, but one may moxa the damp > > > > to dry it, and not the phlegm. > > > > > > I disagree... > > > > > > > can you elaborate? > > It is very simple it is just not true...People moxa phlegm conditions > all the time. Are you " making this up " ? I would not call this an " elaboration " nor would you. " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " is not a statement of fact in nor are you backing up any of your statements with the sources you are always asking others to provide. There are many schools of thought in Asian Medicine and I think we all agree that many times these are contradictory. That does not mean that there are not many ways to skin the proverbial cat. I think we all come to this group with the hope of garnering many points of view and learning more about the various practices of , both modern and ancient. One is not all right while the others all wrong. > > > OK, cold phlegm when heated may rise and go wayward. > > I have to ask where is this coming from...? Basic theory states you > apply heat to counteract cold and this is certainly true for cold- phlegm. And some schools of thought believe that because phlegm is congealed and condensed, that adding further heat could further dehydrate and congeal it. I think it could be a matter of which points one is to moxa and where the phlegm is located and if the blood is also static and weather static blood predated the phlegm or vice versa. To moxa St 36 to increase the function of the St and Sp would be appropriate according to my training to help in the transformation of phlegm due to weak Spleen function. To moxa Sp 10 to invigorate blood which has caused accumulation of phlegm would also be appropriate. In Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion or CAM, a basic TCM text, Cheng XinNong Chief editor, states: The functions of moxa are: " 1. To warm meridians and expel cold. 2. To induce the smooth flow of qi and blood. 3. To strengthen yang from collapse. 4. To prevent diseases and keep healthy. " The contraindications are: " 1. Excess " (phlegm is an excess syndrome or at least a combo excess/deficiency stndrome) " syndrome, and heat syndrome 2. scarring moxa should not be applied to the face and head and vicinity of the large blood vessels. 3. The abdominal region and lumbo-sacral region of pregnant women. In Introduction to Meridian Therapy by Shudo Denmei, Shudo quotes Honma Shohaku from Discourse on Meridian therapy as follows: " Needles adjust the Qi. In moxibustion, the Qi is adjusted by moving the Blood. Even if moxibustion is part of merdian therapy, it is a mistake to burn moxa at L9 or Sp3. Tenderness appears at associated points, connecting points, and some source points, or otherwise along the yang meridians. Moxibustion is indicated for tender points. " > > > > > > > > > And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole is more > than the > > > > parts. > > > > > > What are yuou getting at? can you reiterate. > > > > > > > > what am I getting at? > > I am not getting at anything other than having a clinical discussion. > > > > Deadman: In cases of phlegm always LU and SP are culpable. > > Well deadman says this, but of course there is so much more that just > that,... That is totally oversimplified... I just didn't understand > your statement " And there is the LU-SP connection by which the whole > is more than the parts. " - I don't understand what you are getting at... > > > > > > I think you need to look at some basic theory on phlem and damp, I > > > suggest Clavey's book " Fluid physiology " or just Wiseman intro text to > > > Chinese MEdicial theory, or of course his dictionary has some basic > > > descriptions. Hope this helps... > > > > not really. I wanted the rich experience of TCM professionals, not more > > textx. > > > > I have always been intrigued with the phlegm-damp connection, and don't > > think I know as much as I should. > > Well this is very interesting to me... You don't want to read the > fundamental basics of a topic that you don't understand, yet you are > making things up about it, like phlegm has heat, and if you moxa it > goes wayward, or even if you heat phlegm-cold it will rise and go > wayward.. etc, etc… What is this??? Please tell me what the source is > for `your' ideas. > > IMO, here is the downside... You just want someone's clinical > experience. Chinese medicine has a very sound theoretical framework > that supports it. If you have a clinical discussion with people that > DO NOT have this framework, you get statements and ideas like what you > are talking about. And this is just MSUing… Sorry, I don't know what MSUing is. Could you please elaborate? This is like 10 monkey's > standing around a rocket and discussing how it was made. > > Or more correctly I should point out that if you do not have the > fundamental understanding of a CM concept, you will have no conceptual > model to make sense of clinical experience (by you or others). Or if > you have completely wrong model then clinical information will be > distorted and be misfiled. > > But you are right, phlegm-damp is an interesting topic. It is so > interesting that I have a 400 page book in Chinese (about 1200 pages > in English). Meaning there is simple black and white answers to many > issues, BUT there are clearly fundamental definitions etc that one > should know to discuss such a topic. > > Remember that traditionally doctors memorized a teacher's texts before > studying with them, I suggest you check out the basic theories on > phlegm and damp and then if you have some questions I am sure I and > others would be happy to engage… > > Respectfully, >> - I think you need a 400 page book in Chinese (1200 in English) on " respect " . Then maybe I and others would be happy to engage. I don't think you are aware of how painful and unnecessary your tonguelashings are to others. You demand sources and accuse others of " making things up " and then don't quote sources and make things up. You truly don't know the meaning of the word " respect " and I find it ironic you close your post that way. It's like the father who beats his child to a pulp and then kisses him afterward. Shameful. Or perhaps you are just a clumsy writer. Is this how you treat your patients? Shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 There are many types of phlegm, Shanna, and it depends on the type of phlegm on whether moxa is appropriate. There is heat phlegm, cold phlegm, qi phlegm, phlegm-rheum, phlegm from wind-cold, damp phlegm. Each has its own definition, pathomechanism, and treatment. The problem is when there are generalizations, such as 'never moxa phlegm'. And, as Robert Hayden pointed out in his post, many traditions say you can moxa heat conditions as well. On Jul 19, 2004, at 8:28 PM, shannahickle wrote: > Are you " making this up " ? I would not call this an " elaboration " nor > would you. " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " is not a > statement of fact in nor are you backing up any of > your statements with the sources you are always asking others to > provide. There are many schools of thought in Asian Medicine and I > think we all agree that many times these are contradictory. That > does not mean that there are not many ways to skin the proverbial > cat. I think we all come to this group with the hope of garnering > many points of view and learning more about the various practices of > , both modern and ancient. One is not all right > while the others all wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Thanks, Zev. As I said, I don't doubt or worry that there are many perspectives on such matters as moxa and its appropriate use. I do realize it is a very strong treatment and if used inappropriately can cause damaging side-effects which I have seen in the clinic. What sources do you recommend me studying to further my knowledge in this area? English, unfortuantely, is at present my only fluent language though I am working on medical Spanish to better serve my local population. Is Clavey's book any good? Is the 2nd edition the newest? Which of the translated classics might be accessible for a 3rd year practitioner on this subject? Thanks, Shanna Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > There are many types of phlegm, Shanna, and it depends on the type of > phlegm on whether moxa is appropriate. There is heat phlegm, cold > phlegm, qi phlegm, phlegm-rheum, phlegm from wind-cold, damp phlegm. > Each has its own definition, pathomechanism, and treatment. The > problem is when there are generalizations, such as 'never moxa phlegm'. > And, as Robert Hayden pointed out in his post, many traditions say you > can moxa heat conditions as well. > > > On Jul 19, 2004, at 8:28 PM, shannahickle wrote: > > > Are you " making this up " ? I would not call this an " elaboration " nor > > would you. " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " is not a > > statement of fact in nor are you backing up any of > > your statements with the sources you are always asking others to > > provide. There are many schools of thought in Asian Medicine and I > > think we all agree that many times these are contradictory. That > > does not mean that there are not many ways to skin the proverbial > > cat. I think we all come to this group with the hope of garnering > > many points of view and learning more about the various practices of > > , both modern and ancient. One is not all right > > while the others all wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Clavey's book is simply one of the best texts in english for TCM; especially dampness and phlegm topics. If you are after moxa details, look elsewhere........perhaps japanese style acupuncture texts would be your best bet. TCM is general does not come close to the japanese acu/moxa schools in this area. Best Wishes, Steve On 20/07/2004, at 3:37 PM, shannahickle wrote: > Thanks, Zev. As I said, I don't doubt or worry that there are many > perspectives on such matters as moxa and its appropriate use. I do > realize it is a very strong treatment and if used inappropriately > can cause damaging side-effects which I have seen in the clinic. > What sources do you recommend me studying to further my knowledge in > this area? English, unfortuantely, is at present my only fluent > language though I am working on medical Spanish to better serve my > local population. Is Clavey's book any good? Is the 2nd edition the > newest? Which of the translated classics might be accessible for a > 3rd year practitioner on this subject? > > Thanks, Shanna > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > There are many types of phlegm, Shanna, and it depends on the type > of > > phlegm on whether moxa is appropriate. There is heat phlegm, cold > > phlegm, qi phlegm, phlegm-rheum, phlegm from wind-cold, damp > phlegm. > > Each has its own definition, pathomechanism, and treatment. The > > problem is when there are generalizations, such as 'never moxa > phlegm'. > > And, as Robert Hayden pointed out in his post, many traditions > say you > > can moxa heat conditions as well. > > > > > > On Jul 19, 2004, at 8:28 PM, shannahickle wrote: > > > > > Are you " making this up " ? I would not call this an " elaboration " > nor > > > would you. " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " is not a > > > statement of fact in nor are you backing up any > of > > > your statements with the sources you are always asking others to > > > provide. There are many schools of thought in Asian Medicine and > I > > > think we all agree that many times these are contradictory. That > > > does not mean that there are not many ways to skin the proverbial > > > cat. I think we all come to this group with the hope of garnering > > > many points of view and learning more about the various > practices of > > > , both modern and ancient. One is not all right > > > while the others all wrong. > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link > page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop > being delivered. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hi Shanna, The best English-language source for learning about Japanese moxibustion is Junji Mizutani's " Practical Moxibustion Therapy " . It is a collection of articles he wrote for the North American Journal of Oriental Medicine. To obtain a copy you can contact him by email at najom ... It's US$10 including shipping to the USA, C$15 to Canada, and US$12 elsewhere. robert hayden Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Thanks, Zev. As I said, I don't doubt or worry that there are many > perspectives on such matters as moxa and its appropriate use. I do > realize it is a very strong treatment and if used inappropriately > can cause damaging side-effects which I have seen in the clinic. > What sources do you recommend me studying to further my knowledge in > this area? English, unfortuantely, is at present my only fluent > language though I am working on medical Spanish to better serve my > local population. Is Clavey's book any good? Is the 2nd edition the > newest? Which of the translated classics might be accessible for a > 3rd year practitioner on this subject? > > Thanks, Shanna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 'Phlegm is the cooler part of Fire. Fire is the hotter part of phlegm.' This presumes that in any particle of phlegm there is a sleeping seed of Fire, and this may come awake at the heat of burning herb. Any kind of phlegm, cold, damp, stagnated or still, would have a fiery element, which can come awake and go wayward. The mother of Damp is Earth, but the mother of Phlegm is Damp and Dryness. Damp is wholesale wet and lives in a continuum. Phlegm is wet in part and dry in part, and lives as an admixture of the two. The Phlegm particle, whether in the armpit as a lipoma, or in the discharge in the bronchus, or as the mantle of restriction in the staggering heart which cannot beat by it's own cadence, or as the compacted nodule on the calcaneum which will not move come what may, is already Heated, even when the Fire is sleeping. Phlegm sleeping is bad enough, for it obstructs and gives no free passage to qi or blood or movement or transition of tissue. Phlegm awake is worse, because it is essentially now a loose cannonball, dislodged and ready to hit where it will. Phlegm, once let loose, will not come under restrain. The one terrifying aspect of phlegm which all have seen, when it is overt as in bronchial discharge, is it's obstinate mucoid character. This is Damp in which Dryness has instilled. Often a cold cyst which is phlegmatic in nature, may render a feel of almost, this is a bad slimily, crepitation; or at least a peculiar 'give' which you may nowhere else. This is the Dry in Damp, different from the familiar spongy feel of the latter. It may seem that the LU has instilled air particles, bubbles, in the damp mass. Actually it is Emptiness, created by Dryness which has come into the Wetness of the original Damp. Dry is half a skip and a whole jump away from Heated, whereby the Fiery nature in phlegm. Can one work with thread moxa to dislodge impacted Phlegm? Perhaps, if there is a lesser hell for the inadvertent, but well meaning healer. Can one work with the conventional moxa instead? Only at peril to the patient. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > > Are you " making this up " ? I would not call this an " elaboration " nor > would you. " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " is not a > statement of fact in nor are you backing up any of > your statements with the sources you are always asking others to > provide. There are many schools of thought in Asian Medicine and I > think we all agree that many times these are contradictory. That > does not mean that there are not many ways to skin the proverbial > cat. I think we all come to this group with the hope of garnering > many points of view and learning more about the various practices of > , both modern and ancient. One is not all right > while the others all wrong. Shanna, I have to say that your logic is most perplexing... The statement was made 1) you cannot moxa phlegm conditions. This is clearly a wrong statement... I am quite aware there are many schools of thought in CM, and that is the point! Such black and white statements are what I am clearly pointing out is not true because of the other schools of thought. And, once again you miss the most important point of the discussion. IF one's theory is lacking, and one has the wrong assumption that phlegm has to be hot, then one can come up with the wrong black and white statements that phlegm cannot be moxaed. This is not being about different points of views. For this to be the case, and your problem with my post, you would have to show me where in the CM literature it says phlegm has to be hot AND cannot be moxa. Everybook Chinese and English I have read says otherwise – So I am sure I represent the mainstream view on this one… Once again, it is common practice for people to moxa phlegm conditions, I don't think anyone that has studied moxa would disagree, and the previous posts have demonstrated some sources. If you actually don't believe this and need something to read let me know. So logic goes like this: if you make a black and white statement (as was made) and you clearly see multiple avenues of CM that disagree then the black and white `fact' is a falsehood. Simple logic… That is all I said… > > > > > > OK, cold phlegm when heated may rise and go wayward. > > > > I have to ask where is this coming from...? Basic theory states > you > > apply heat to counteract cold and this is certainly true for cold- > phlegm. > > And some schools of thought believe that because phlegm is congealed > and condensed, that adding further heat could further dehydrate and > congeal it. I think it could be a matter of which points one is to > moxa and where the phlegm is located and if the blood is also static > and weather static blood predated the phlegm or vice versa. To moxa > St 36 to increase the function of the St and Sp would be appropriate > according to my training to help in the transformation of phlegm due > to weak Spleen function. So you clearly agree that some points can be used for phlegm, I never said you can moxa any point anyway for phlegm… So you proved my point exactly! Thanx, (Now I completely question your response)… To moxa Sp 10 to invigorate blood which has > caused accumulation of phlegm would also be appropriate. In Chinese > Acupuncture and Moxibustion or CAM, a basic TCM text, Cheng XinNong > Chief editor, states: > > The functions of moxa are: " 1. To warm meridians and expel cold. 2. > To induce the smooth flow of qi and blood. 3. To strengthen yang > from collapse. 4. To prevent diseases and keep healthy. " > The contraindications are: " 1. Excess " (phlegm is an excess syndrome > or at least a combo excess/deficiency stndrome) " syndrome, and heat > syndrome 2. scarring moxa should not be applied to the face and head > and vicinity of the large blood vessels. 3. The abdominal region and > lumbo-sacral region of pregnant women. Unfortunately I don't even consider CAM a CM text, it was discarded years ago and replaced by books that represent a higher level (for me).. In the beginning it is common to teach people black and white's so there mind can wrap around a subject, but then these are discarded, especially when the clinic comes in to play… SO thanx for the quote it is interesting, but IMO does not hold much weight… Furthermore it is also common knowledge that you can moxa hot conditions, contrary to what CAM says… These kind of C.I.'s are for people who don't really know how to use moxa… It is the same for CI of herbs, they are for the lowest common denominator of practitioner. I.e. – If you don't know what is up you should follow these rules… MOST CI, as Bensky will agree, are just guidelines and in the clinic are taken with a grain of salt. > > In Introduction to Meridian Therapy by Shudo Denmei, Shudo quotes > Honma Shohaku from Discourse on Meridian therapy as follows: > " Needles adjust the Qi. In moxibustion, the Qi is adjusted by moving > the Blood. Even if moxibustion is part of merdian therapy, it is a > mistake to burn moxa at L9 or Sp3. Tenderness appears at associated > points, connecting points, and some source points, or otherwise > along the yang meridians. Moxibustion is indicated for tender > points. " So this quote says nothing about our topic, or did I miss something… > > I think you need a 400 page book in Chinese (1200 in English) > on " respect " . Then maybe I and others would be happy to engage. I > don't think you are aware of how painful and unnecessary your > tonguelashings are to others. I am aware, but they are necessary IMO see below...... > Well… I do have to apologize about my tone, this is though left over from the obvious ignorance of basic theory, when you (shanna) and I had a convo on the CHA. I just got frustrated with people making blatantly wrong statements, and acting like they know something. IT was clear here that Dr. K (as he admitted) did not know anything, yet such black and white statements came up and they were defended… In your case you were making up more crap than I could shovel out of my computer. (no offense, just the truth) when someone says stuff like " I (along with CM physicians for thousands of years before us) said chai hu enters the SJ... " This shows you are talking out of your butt, as with about 80% of your statements.. You have no idea, and this is what pisses me off about the profession. There is a basic amount of theory that everyone should know, unfortunately the people that don't know it just start MSUing (Making Stuff up)… Saying oh, Chinese medicine is creative I can expand the theory anyway that my mind likes etc… This is something that everyone should think about, because it is endemic in the US, because people don't have a firm grounding and feel it is there right to MSU… BTW- Channels of herbs were created in the Qing dynasty, and chai hu by most sources does not go to the SJ, and only very few sources assign it to the SJ and this is because of the GB link, no by clearing the 3 burners, and yes I have a source. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: >> > Can one work with thread moxa to dislodge impacted Phlegm? > Perhaps, if there is a lesser hell for the inadvertent, but well meaning > healer. > guess i'm headed for hell then........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > BTW- Channels of herbs were created in the Qing dynasty, IIRC channel entry was an idea from the Song-Jin-Yuan period, especially associated with Zhang Yuansu in the twelfth century, long before the Qing. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Sadly, There are few good books on moxabustion as a stand-alone modality in English, Shanna. I do think that Clavey's book is excellent. On Jul 19, 2004, at 10:37 PM, shannahickle wrote: > Thanks, Zev. As I said, I don't doubt or worry that there are many > perspectives on such matters as moxa and its appropriate use. I do > realize it is a very strong treatment and if used inappropriately > can cause damaging side-effects which I have seen in the clinic. > What sources do you recommend me studying to further my knowledge in > this area? English, unfortuantely, is at present my only fluent > language though I am working on medical Spanish to better serve my > local population. Is Clavey's book any good? Is the 2nd edition the > newest? Which of the translated classics might be accessible for a > 3rd year practitioner on this subject? > > Thanks, Shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Ok let's look at this... Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > 'Phlegm is the cooler part of Fire. Fire is the hotter part of phlegm.' 1st- where is this from (source)...? and what is the context! This is 1 sentence (only) which sounds like it is talking about 1 kind of phlegm Phlegm-Heat (fire...) Remeber there are many kinds of phlegm... > > This presumes that in any particle of phlegm there is a sleeping seed of > Fire, > and this may come awake at the heat of burning herb. This is the leap (IMO)... Can you substantiate this from a source, because I don't make this conclusion based on my knowledge and my sources. > > Any kind of phlegm, cold, damp, stagnated or still, would have a fiery > element, > which can come awake and go wayward. Again source? I disagree... > > The Phlegm particle, whether in the armpit as a lipoma, or in the discharge > in the > bronchus, or as the mantle of restriction in the staggering heart which > cannot beat > by it's own cadence, or as the compacted nodule on the calcaneum which will > not move come what may, is already Heated, even when the Fire is sleeping. Source? > > Phlegm awake is worse, because it is essentially now a loose cannonball, > dislodged and ready to hit where it will. Can you supply a source for this idea of sleeping and awake phlegm... > > Phlegm, once let loose, will not come under restrain. > > The one terrifying aspect of phlegm which all have seen, when it is overt as > in > bronchial discharge, is it's obstinate mucoid character. This is Damp in > which > Dryness has instilled. > > Often a cold cyst which is phlegmatic in nature, may render a feel of > almost, > this is a bad slimily, crepitation; or at least a peculiar 'give' which you > may > nowhere else. This is the Dry in Damp, different from the familiar spongy > feel of the > latter. > > It may seem that the LU has instilled air particles, bubbles, in the damp > mass. > Actually it is Emptiness, created by Dryness which has come into the Wetness > of the original Damp. > > Dry is half a skip and a whole jump away from Heated, whereby the Fiery > nature > in phlegm. Unclear on this whole passage... ??? Where is this from?? I am having a very difficult understanding your thought process, can you quote something or point me to a place I can read it for myself…? One should remember there is also hidden phlegm and many others as Z'ev points out... > > Can one work with thread moxa to dislodge impacted Phlegm? What kind? Dr. H _ i am curious what you are a doctor in? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 The structure of Phlegm. How different is Damp from Phlegm? What are the common elements, which not so? Where does the Fire come from? If 'ignited', where will phlegm fly? What is it's likely trajectory? If phlegm substantial? If so what constitutes it? Is it mutable? To what will it sublimate? Will it construct? Destrusct? Obstruct? Why do they say, " Any inexplicable illness is probably originated in Phlegm? " Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Really? What bad side effects from improper moxa treatments? John Garbarini --- <zrosenbe wrote: > Sadly, > There are few good books on moxabustion as a > stand-alone modality in > English, Shanna. I do think that Clavey's book is > excellent. > > > On Jul 19, 2004, at 10:37 PM, shannahickle wrote: > > > Thanks, Zev. As I said, I don't doubt or worry > that there are many > > perspectives on such matters as moxa and its > appropriate use. I do > > realize it is a very strong treatment and if used > inappropriately > > can cause damaging side-effects which I have seen > in the clinic. > > What sources do you recommend me studying to > further my knowledge in > > this area? English, unfortuantely, is at present > my only fluent > > language though I am working on medical Spanish to > better serve my > > local population. Is Clavey's book any good? Is > the 2nd edition the > > newest? Which of the translated classics might be > accessible for a > > 3rd year practitioner on this subject? > > > > Thanks, Shanna > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 > Ok let's look at this... Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > 'Phlegm is the cooler part of Fire. Fire is the hotter part of phlegm.' 1st- where is this from (source)...? and what is the context! This is 1 sentence (only) which sounds like it is talking about 1 kind of phlegm Phlegm-Heat (fire...) Remeber there are many kinds of phlegm... > > OK, let's. Manual of Acupuncture, Deadman et al; ST 40, p. 166; commentary. Incidentally, I don't write to be agreed with. This is a beautiful forum which allows voicing of the practice of TCM, a rich experience of many dedicated healers. I revel in the knowledge and experience they ahve and share. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " " < <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:24 AM Re: Phlegm Vs Damp > > This presumes that in any particle of phlegm there is a sleeping seed of > Fire, > and this may come awake at the heat of burning herb. This is the leap (IMO)... Can you substantiate this from a source, because I don't make this conclusion based on my knowledge and my sources. > > Any kind of phlegm, cold, damp, stagnated or still, would have a fiery > element, > which can come awake and go wayward. Again source? I disagree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hi John I was trained in Traditional by doctors from mainland China so this is my perspective. As Zev said, there is little information in English on moxa as a stand alone treatment, though I have certainly heard the legends of Japanese practitioners who are quite skillful at using this powerful modality much more widely than is recognized in China. As for the side effects which I have witnessed, one especially comes to mind. While a TA for the Acupuncture Techniques class, the students were practicing using loose moxa on each other. In CAM, the editors mention that moxa is contraindicated for Yin Xu conditions. One menopausal, yin xu student volunteered to test this theory. Her partner burned one small cone on each of her BL 23 points. At the next class, the woman claimed to have intensified hot flashes and night sweating and trouble sleeping for several days. She was otherwise a pretty healthy person and recovered from the side effects quickly. This has always stuck in my mind and made me careful about the applicaton of moxa for anything other than those conditions suggested in CAM which, so far, is the only English language resource I have on the subject. Again, I am very interested to learn about the other schools of thought with respect to moxa and its use and would be very glad to hear of anyone else's experiences and sources. As a side note, I must also say that while doing a post graduate study at Cheng Du University, I attended a lecture by a doctor who uses moxa more widely than most and she absolutely balked at the idea that moxa is contraindicated in yin xu conditions. Like I said, CM is full of varying schools of thought and ideas about everything from diagnosis to application of acu/moxa and formulas. Although it would be comfortable and safe for all of us to think that somebody is " right " , I think it's sort of like religion where they all may be somewhat right and all are working toward the same goals. To try and actually capture the Tao is foolhardy. It is ceaseless in its motion and hides and reveals itself in a flash. Thanks, Shanna Thanks, Shanna Chinese Medicine , John Garbarini <johnlg_2000> wrote: > Really? What bad side effects from improper moxa > treatments? > John Garbarini > > > > > > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 dragonslive wrote: " TCM is general does not come close to the japanese acu/moxa schools in this area. " Ehhh... excuse me, but I think your generalization is perhaps limited by the books or practices accessible/understandable by you. Wouldn't you admit? Respectfully, Mike L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 While this may be your opinion, based on your experience, it is not based in fact or the Chinese medical literature, or in the clinical practice of the Japanese. There have been critiques of those on this list who say there should be accountability, clear sources for ideas. A statement like this, if taken as fact, when it is opinion, leads to a narrowing of practice, not an expansion. On Jul 20, 2004, at 6:23 AM, homi kaikobad wrote: > Can one work with thread moxa to dislodge impacted Phlegm? > Perhaps, if there is a lesser hell for the inadvertent, but well > meaning > healer. > > Can one work with the conventional moxa instead? > Only at peril to the patient. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I am trying to follow your logic on phlegm, but fail to understand what it is you are trying to convey, or what sources you are using. What is the source of the statement " phlegm is the cooler part of fire " ? What theory are you espousing? Is it mingmen fire theory of Zhang Jing-yue? Is it spleen-stomach theory of Li Dong-yuan? Or your own ideas? On Jul 20, 2004, at 6:23 AM, homi kaikobad wrote: > 'Phlegm is the cooler part of Fire. Fire is the hotter part of phlegm.' > > This presumes that in any particle of phlegm there is a sleeping seed > of > Fire, > and this may come awake at the heat of burning herb. > > Any kind of phlegm, cold, damp, stagnated or still, would have a fiery > element, > which can come awake and go wayward. > > The mother of Damp is Earth, but the mother of Phlegm is Damp and > Dryness. > Damp is wholesale wet and lives in a continuum. Phlegm is wet in part > and > dry > in part, and lives as an admixture of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hi Robert Thanks for the reference. As you can see, however, this group's software (I guess) doesn't permit the full listing of the website information. Could you please reprint this with a space to fool the computer into letting this information through? Thanks, Shanna Chinese Medicine , " kampo36 " <kampo36> wrote: > Hi Shanna, > > The best English-language source for learning about Japanese moxibustion is Junji > Mizutani's " Practical Moxibustion Therapy " . It is a collection of articles he wrote for > the North American Journal of Oriental Medicine. To obtain a copy you can contact > him by email at najom@s... ... It's US$10 including shipping to the USA, C$15 to > Canada, and US$12 elsewhere. > > robert hayden > > --- In Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " > <shannahickle> wrote: > > Thanks, Zev. As I said, I don't doubt or worry that there are many > > perspectives on such matters as moxa and its appropriate use. I do > > realize it is a very strong treatment and if used inappropriately > > can cause damaging side-effects which I have seen in the clinic. > > What sources do you recommend me studying to further my knowledge in > > this area? English, unfortuantely, is at present my only fluent > > language though I am working on medical Spanish to better serve my > > local population. Is Clavey's book any good? Is the 2nd edition the > > newest? Which of the translated classics might be accessible for a > > 3rd year practitioner on this subject? > > > > Thanks, Shanna > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dr. Holmes, I read the reference, a very good discussion on the nature of phlegm. So, let's continue the discussion a bit. I think you are arguing that qi depression, yin vacuity, or stagnation can produce heat that can congeal phlegm and produce more heat. This is correct. However, kidney or spleen yang vacuity leads to a lack of fire, and the inability of the qi transformation to separate clear from turbid. This can lead to phlegm-rheum or cold phlegm, without any heat or dryness involved. You mention the relationship of phlegm and dryness. While this is certainly possible, it is not an 'all-the-time' scenario. Perhaps you are talking about a five phase relationship here? If so, please clarify. Thank you, On Jul 20, 2004, at 9:45 AM, homi kaikobad wrote: > OK, let's. > > Manual of Acupuncture, Deadman et al; ST 40, p. 166; commentary. > > Incidentally, I don't write to be agreed with. This is a beautiful > forum > which allows > voicing of the practice of TCM, a rich experience of many dedicated > healers. > > I revel in the knowledge and experience they ahve and share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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