Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Yes, this is certainly possible as my chinese reading ability is limited at this stage. However, from my experience with clinic in CHina and my numerous Chinese teachers I stand by this statement. I specifically said " TCM in general " deliberately; because I am sure there are texts in chinese that delve more deeply into moxa than those in english. BUT......... " generally " ; moxa is not practiced in depth in modern " TCM " when compared to the Japanese styles. If you disagree, fine. Basic TCM education contains little on moxa therapies........and contains many statements that severely restrict its use as can been seen by this thread. The japanese however do not make such generalizations and have a far deeper theory in practice in " general " than modern TCM. Best Wishes, Steve On 21/07/2004, at 3:51 AM, Mike Liaw wrote: > > dragonslive wrote: > > " TCM is general does not come close to the japanese > acu/moxa schools in this area. " > > Ehhh... excuse me, but I think your generalization is perhaps limited > by > the books or practices accessible/understandable by you. Wouldn't you > admit? > > Respectfully, > > Mike L. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 sure... najom @ shaw . ca or najom at shaw dot ca rh Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hi Robert > > Thanks for the reference. As you can see, however, this group's > software (I guess) doesn't permit the full listing of the website > information. Could you please reprint this with a space to fool the > computer into letting this information through? > > Thanks, Shanna > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " > <shannahickle> wrote: > > > > Are you " making this up " ? I would not call this an " elaboration " nor > > would you. " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " is not a > > statement of fact in nor are you backing up any of > > your statements with the sources you are always asking others to > > provide. There are many schools of thought in Asian Medicine and I > > think we all agree that many times these are contradictory. That > > does not mean that there are not many ways to skin the proverbial > > cat. I think we all come to this group with the hope of garnering > > many points of view and learning more about the various practices of > > , both modern and ancient. One is not all right > > while the others all wrong. > > Shanna, > > I have to say that your logic is most perplexing... The statement was > made 1) you cannot moxa phlegm conditions. This is clearly a wrong > statement... I am quite aware there are many schools of thought in > CM, and that is the point! Such black and white statements are what I > am clearly pointing out is not true because of the other schools of > thought. And, once again you miss the most important point of the > discussion. IF one's theory is lacking, and one has the wrong > assumption that phlegm has to be hot, then one can come up with the > wrong black and white statements that phlegm cannot be moxaed. This > is not being about different points of views. For this to be the > case, and your problem with my post, you would have to show me where > in the CM literature it says phlegm has to be hot AND cannot be moxa. > Everybook Chinese and English I have read says otherwise Please, share your sources with us. I would like to learn. – So I am > sure I represent the mainstream view on this one… Once again, it is > common practice for people to moxa phlegm conditions, I don't think > anyone that has studied moxa would disagree, and the previous posts > have demonstrated some sources. If you actually don't believe this > and need something to read let me know. I don't know what I believe yet. Please recommend a good source if you would. So logic goes like this: if > you make a black and white statement (as was made) and you clearly > see multiple avenues of CM that disagree then the black and white > `fact' is a falsehood. Simple logic… That is all I said… > > > > > > > > > > > OK, cold phlegm when heated may rise and go wayward. > > > > > > I have to ask where is this coming from...? Basic theory states > > you > > > apply heat to counteract cold and this is certainly true for cold- > > phlegm. > > > > And some schools of thought believe that because phlegm is congealed > > and condensed, that adding further heat could further dehydrate and > > congeal it. I think it could be a matter of which points one is to > > moxa and where the phlegm is located and if the blood is also static > > and weather static blood predated the phlegm or vice versa. To moxa > > St 36 to increase the function of the St and Sp would be appropriate > > according to my training to help in the transformation of phlegm due > > to weak Spleen function. > > So you clearly agree that some points can be used for phlegm, I never > said you can moxa any point anyway for phlegm… So you proved my point > exactly! Thanx, (Now I completely question your response)… I never took exception to your knowledge. Only your tone and failure to cite sources while demanding them of others. Please, teach me. > > To moxa Sp 10 to invigorate blood which has > > caused accumulation of phlegm would also be appropriate. In Chinese > > Acupuncture and Moxibustion or CAM, a basic TCM text, Cheng XinNong > > Chief editor, states: > > > > The functions of moxa are: " 1. To warm meridians and expel cold. 2. > > To induce the smooth flow of qi and blood. 3. To strengthen yang > > from collapse. 4. To prevent diseases and keep healthy. " > > The contraindications are: " 1. Excess " (phlegm is an excess syndrome > > or at least a combo excess/deficiency stndrome) " syndrome, and heat > > syndrome 2. scarring moxa should not be applied to the face and head > > and vicinity of the large blood vessels. 3. The abdominal region and > > lumbo-sacral region of pregnant women. > > Unfortunately I don't even consider CAM a CM text, it was discarded > years ago and replaced by books that represent a higher level (for > me).. Again, " books " . What books? I was only offered CAM in my education. I need help here, please. In the beginning it is common to teach people black and white's > so there mind can wrap around a subject, but then these are discarded, > especially when the clinic comes in to play… SO thanx for the quote it > is interesting, but IMO does not hold much weight… I agree. I think CAM is lame. Help me out here. Sources, please? Furthermore it is > also common knowledge that you can moxa hot conditions, contrary to > what CAM says… These kind of C.I.'s My computer ignorance, again. CI's? are for people who don't really > know how to use moxa… It is the same for CI of herbs, they are for the > lowest common denominator of practitioner. I.e. – If you don't know > what is up you should follow these rules… MOST CI, as Bensky will > agree, are just guidelines and in the clinic are taken with a grain of > salt. > > > > > In Introduction to Meridian Therapy by Shudo Denmei, Shudo quotes > > Honma Shohaku from Discourse on Meridian therapy as follows: > > " Needles adjust the Qi. In moxibustion, the Qi is adjusted by moving > > the Blood. Even if moxibustion is part of merdian therapy, it is a > > mistake to burn moxa at L9 or Sp3. Tenderness appears at associated > > points, connecting points, and some source points, or otherwise > > along the yang meridians. Moxibustion is indicated for tender > > points. " > > So this quote says nothing about our topic, or did I miss something… No, you missed nothing. It is, in fact, the only other reference to rules concerning the use of moxa I could find in my limited library. Other sources would be highly appreciated. BTW, do you practice Japanese acupuncture and follow its precepts or have you found Chinese sources on the subject? Do you read Chinese? > > > > > I think you need a 400 page book in Chinese (1200 in English) > > on " respect " . Then maybe I and others would be happy to engage. I > > don't think you are aware of how painful and unnecessary your > > tonguelashings are to others. > > I am aware, but they are necessary IMO see below...... > > > > > Well… I do have to apologize about my tone, this is though left over > from the obvious ignorance of basic theory, when you (shanna) and I > had a convo on the CHA. I was referring to your tone with respect to your dialogue with Homi, although it goes for the many times I'd like to think you could do better and still get your point across. Yes, I am a novice and ignorant of many things. That's why I continue to put up with you. A superior teacher and practitioner has nothing to prove. I just got frustrated with people making > blatantly wrong statements, and acting like they know something. You do seem quite frustrated by people who are wrong and by people who act like they might know something. I can tell that you have great love and respect for this medicine and that you would like to become a superior practitioner. But, how can any of us learn if he is not permitted to explain his thinking process--even if it is wrong. I'd like to be corrected if my statements are wrong. That's why I'm here; to refine my knowledge and find out where my wrong thinking lies. To do this I must expose myself. Please don't slash so hard. Truly, it isn't necessary. Perhaps you could try some meditation or formula for your frustration? A more gentle approach would be much appreciated. IT > was clear here that Dr. K (as he admitted) did not know anything This is a black and white statement. I truly doubt that Homi doesn't know anything. , yet > such black and white statements came up and they were defended… In > your case you were making up more crap than I could shovel out of my > computer. (no offense, just the truth) No offense? Since when is " crap " not offensive? when someone says stuff like " I > (along with CM physicians for thousands of years before us) said chai > hu enters the SJ... " This shows you are talking out of your butt, as > with about 80% of your statements.. You have no idea, Cite sources, teach me, please! and this is what > pisses me off about the profession. There is a basic amount of theory > that everyone should know, unfortunately the people that don't know it > just start MSUing (Making Stuff up)… Saying oh, Chinese medicine is > creative I can expand the theory anyway that my mind likes etc… This > is something that everyone should think about, because it is endemic > in the US, because people don't have a firm grounding and feel it is > there right to MSU… > BTW- Channels of herbs were created in the Qing dynasty, and chai hu > by most sources does not go to the SJ, and only very few sources > assign it to the SJ and this is because of the GB link, no by clearing > the 3 burners, and yes I have a source. Thank you for teaching me that only a very few sources assign Chai Hu to the SJ channel. Certainly food for thought. You have a source? Could you please name it so I, too, could learn these things. BTW, I never said Chai Hu cleared the three burners. You said you thought it must clear heat there in order to enter the SJ. I argued that Chai Hu might enter the SJ by virtue of it's role in harmonizing Shao Yang disease. I think you said you had got too tired to comment on that part of my last post. I really suspect your liver will destroy your spleen if you don't change your ways. Shanna > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 If a hypothetical patient comes with a condition in which phlegm plays a significant role, how safe will it be to use moxa? There is an intriguing line in Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture: " Phlegm is known as the 'substantial part of fire', and fire the 'non-substantial part of phlegm'. " [p. 166; commentary] Which is to say, Fire is within any particle of phlegm, be it cold or damp or stagnated. If moxa heats up a latent spark, a conflagration may set loose wayward qi which will rise and block whatever stands in the way. Phlegm, or phlegm-Fire, can easily mist the Heart portals causing anything from confusion to mania. I don't propose that a healer may treat with moxa or abstain. Speaking for myself, I am intrigued by this clinical manifestation, which has mystery for it's substance, and dire consequences for it's sustenance. Quoting the same source: " The hundred diseases all pertain to phlegm. " " There is no place phlegm cannot reach. " " Strange diseases involve phlegm. " Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Is a healer of cotemporary times the less than any of bygone years? What is in a book pales before what is in a live heart and a living hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > If a hypothetical patient comes with a condition in which phlegm plays a > significant role, how safe will it be to use moxa? > Speaking for myself, I think there is no hard-and-fast rule. Depends on the patient. After all the patterns and pathomechanisms have been sorted out, I try to keep in mind the words of Rollin Becker: the patient's body knows the problem and is outpicturing it in the tissues. I let my judgement of their body's suitability to moxibustion (admittedly based on only ten years of study and practice) guide me as to whether moxibustion will be safe and effective or not. Books are great. But you can take them too literally. For acumoxa I trust palpation. My herb skills are still fairly rudimentary, so for those I rely on books. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > > > > Please, share your sources with us. I would like to learn. Hopefully in the previous posts you have gotten the sources, will be happy to supply more... > > In the beginning it is common to teach people black and white's > > so there mind can wrap around a subject, but then these are > discarded, > > especially when the clinic comes in to play… SO thanx for the > quote it > > is interesting, but IMO does not hold much weight… > > > > I agree. I think CAM is lame. Help me out here. Sources, please? > > > > Furthermore it is > > also common knowledge that you can moxa hot conditions, contrary to > > what CAM says… These kind of C.I.'s > > > > My computer ignorance, again. CI's? Contra-indications... > > > > are for people who don't really > > know how to use moxa… It is the same for CI of herbs, they are for > the > > lowest common denominator of practitioner. I.e. – If you don't > know > > what is up you should follow these rules… MOST CI, as Bensky will > > agree, are just guidelines and in the clinic are taken with a > grain of > > salt. > > > > > > > > In Introduction to Meridian Therapy by Shudo Denmei, Shudo > quotes > > > Honma Shohaku from Discourse on Meridian therapy as follows: > > > " Needles adjust the Qi. In moxibustion, the Qi is adjusted by > moving > > > the Blood. Even if moxibustion is part of merdian therapy, it is > a > > > mistake to burn moxa at L9 or Sp3. Tenderness appears at > associated > > > points, connecting points, and some source points, or otherwise > > > along the yang meridians. Moxibustion is indicated for tender > > > points. " > > > > So this quote says nothing about our topic, or did I miss > something… > > No, you missed nothing. It is, in fact, the only other reference to > rules concerning the use of moxa I could find in my limited library. > Other sources would be highly appreciated. BTW, do you practice > Japanese acupuncture and follow its precepts or have you found > Chinese sources on the subject? Do you read Chinese? I practice TCM (acupuncture & Moxa), Japanese 5E toyohari (acupuncture & Moxa) And Chinese style herbs. Not many Chinese sources on Moxa are not translated into English, but there are many Chinese practitioners that treat pretty much all conditions with moxa (Personal experience and observation). Is it all about how and where you moxa (as you stated correctly previously). And I do read Chinese. > > > > > > > > > > I think you need a 400 page book in Chinese (1200 in English) > > > on " respect " . Then maybe I and others would be happy to engage. > I > > > don't think you are aware of how painful and unnecessary your > > > tonguelashings are to others. > > > > I am aware, but they are necessary IMO see below...... > > > > > > > > > Well… I do have to apologize about my tone, this is though left > over > > from the obvious ignorance of basic theory, when you (shanna) and I > > had a convo on the CHA. > > I was referring to your tone with respect to your dialogue with > Homi, although it goes for the many times I'd like to think you could do better and still get your point across. Yes, I am a novice and ignorant of many things. That's why I continue to put up with you. A superior teacher and practitioner has nothing to prove. > > > I just got frustrated with people making > > blatantly wrong statements, and acting like they know something. > > You do seem quite frustrated by people who are wrong and by people > who act like they might know something. I can tell that you have > great love and respect for this medicine and that you would like to > become a superior practitioner. But, how can any of us learn if he > is not permitted to explain his thinking process--even if it is > wrong. I'd like to be corrected if my statements are wrong. That's > why I'm here; to refine my knowledge and find out where my wrong > thinking lies. To do this I must expose myself. Please don't slash > so hard. Truly, it isn't necessary. Perhaps you could try some > meditation or formula for your frustration? A more gentle approach > would be much appreciated. Perhaps… Really I don't think people should take things so serious. These are just words... If I tell the Michael Jordan he is the worst basketball player ever, is he going to get mad at me? I think people get mad we they doubt themselves, and as evil as this tactic might be, it gets people looking at themselves and hopefully the *profession*. SO I am sorry I am shaking things up, don't take it personal, even though I did wrongly throw a couple of personal jabs in, in general I stand by my shaking… I really see a major concern with the future of the profession, things on the ground floor need to change, and this is one way to start. Maybe not the best, but aggressive tactics are sometimes needed. So I will try to gentrify my approach when possible, but otherwise unless I blatantly disrespect someone please don't take my words to mean anything serious… I am just ranting away behind some computer, and know none of you… > > > > when someone says stuff like " I > > (along with CM physicians for thousands of years before us) said > chai > > hu enters the SJ... " This shows you are talking out of your butt, > as > > with about 80% of your statements.. You have no idea, > > > Cite sources, teach me, please! > > > and this is what > > pisses me off about the profession. There is a basic amount of > theory > > that everyone should know, unfortunately the people that don't > know it > > just start MSUing (Making Stuff up)… Saying oh, Chinese medicine is > > creative I can expand the theory anyway that my mind likes etc… > This > > is something that everyone should think about, because it is > endemic > > in the US, because people don't have a firm grounding and feel it > is > Chai Hu might enter the SJ by virtue of it's role in harmonizing > Shao Yang disease. I think you said you had got too tired to comment > on that part of my last post. I really suspect your liver will > destroy your spleen if you don't change your ways. I have a strong spleen… Having fun yet? & #61514; - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > Is a healer of cotemporary times the less than any of bygone years? > > What is in a book pales before what is in a live heart and a living hand. > > What comes out of this application, placed in words becomes the > lore later generations will follow. > > This place is not, by and large, for quoting chapter and verse, to support > contentions and suppositions. Here views come to light and are shared, > so that discussion ensues and individual thoughts come to light. Homi, I respect your desire for real time information, but I am puzzled why you do not have a desire to hear the past (books, chapters etc) when they have used this medium to communicate what they have found to work, and at the same time you want our `discoveries' to be put in a book for future generations… Could you explain this supposed contradiction? Yes the live heart and hand is nice, but we have 2000 years of hearts and hands that built up out medicine, do we ignore this and start from scratch and reinvent the wheel. BTW- the moxa book and Steven CLavey's book (I referenced) are two people that I think are still alive. IS this information not valid? IS me typing a email more valid than 71 pages of personal experience & explanation on MOXA? I personally trust the moxa book, because this is his lifes work, as for me, I am just a moxa ant… I am (honestly) trying to understand your viewpoint… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 What you quote here is correct, but it is only part of the picture. Sources for a broader picture include the " Practical Dictionary of /Wiseman/Ye, and " Fluid Physiology and Pathology " /Clavey. Everything I know, have studied, and practices teaches that moxa is safe to use in phlegm conditions. Just recently I read a Chinese case report using direct moxa to back shu points for wind/cold pneumonia in the winter season with excellent results. On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:24 PM, homi kaikobad wrote: > If a hypothetical patient comes with a condition in which phlegm plays > a > significant role, how safe will it be to use moxa? > > There is an intriguing line in Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture: > > " Phlegm is known as the 'substantial part of fire', and fire the > 'non-substantial part > of phlegm'. " [p. 166; commentary] > > Which is to say, Fire is within any particle of phlegm, be it cold or > damp > or > stagnated. > Quoting the same source: > > " The hundred diseases all pertain to phlegm. " > > " There is no place phlegm cannot reach. " > > " Strange diseases involve phlegm. " Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Part of the story may be related to the character Tan, for Phlegm, which contains a double fire radical inside the illness radical, IIRC. Of course I gleefully ignore this interpretation and moxa patients freely, looking forward to the day when I can meet up with Sawada Dai-sensei in Dr K's Moxibustionists' Hell and learn a few more of his secrets to use in the next round of rebirth into Samsara. rh Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > What you quote here is correct, but it is only part of the picture. > Sources for a broader picture include the " Practical Dictionary of > /Wiseman/Ye, and " Fluid Physiology and > Pathology " /Clavey. > > Everything I know, have studied, and practices teaches that moxa is > safe to use in phlegm conditions. Just recently I read a Chinese case > report using direct moxa to back shu points for wind/cold pneumonia in > the winter season with excellent results. > > > On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:24 PM, homi kaikobad wrote: > > > If a hypothetical patient comes with a condition in which phlegm plays > > a > > significant role, how safe will it be to use moxa? > > > > There is an intriguing line in Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture: > > > > " Phlegm is known as the 'substantial part of fire', and fire the > > 'non-substantial part > > of phlegm'. " [p. 166; commentary] > > > > Which is to say, Fire is within any particle of phlegm, be it cold or > > damp > > or > > stagnated. > > Quoting the same source: > > > > " The hundred diseases all pertain to phlegm. " > > > > " There is no place phlegm cannot reach. " > > > > " Strange diseases involve phlegm. " > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Oft quoted aphorism in TCM: 'Strange afflictions are usually phlegm'. Zhu Dan-Xi: '[These illnesses] appear [the result of] an evil spirit; only when obstructed phlegm is expelled will the illness be allayed'. On this forum several difficult cases have been brought forth for discussion, and some of evil spirit invasion. How many of these could have been from phlegm as the pathogen? Phlegm to me seems the hidden culprit. It sits silently in some latent locations within, and a score of symptoms and signs accrue, at an area and in a system far removed. In that sense very many cases in which the diagnosis later proven off the mark could have been because of phlegm. When one does confront a phlegm illness and know it, does one address the phlegm and reduce, allay, transform it simply because it is there, or is there a deeper story to it? Wang Ang: 'To treat phlegm, first tonify the SP: if the SP's normal healthy transport is restored, phlegm will disperse by itself'. But can phlegm present even when SP may not be the primary cause? Organs involved as possible causes in creation of phlegm are SP, LU and K, with TW coming in as a silent cohort. In case say LU is the primary seat of etiology, and in time SP has been involved by the Weak Son draining the Mother iconogram, a simple tonification of SP would be amiss, as this would set off a restraining action on Water by the Ko cycle bond. Thus Wang Ang's suggestion seems arbitrary, if not somewhat off the mark. Zhang Jing-yue: 'The best principal of treatment in phlegm disease 'is to cause it to not be produced'. [ ... ] In certain long-term cases of stubborn phlegm, one needs to warm and tonify K Yang. Here is another, even if on the face of it, an arbitrary approach to treating phlegm. Should one narrow down the actual cause of phlegm in any complicated case with a score of symptoms, or should one get to toning SP, or K Yang, as a matter of course? Would this heal, when the actual cause is say in LU, or worse still, in TW? The question rises to the mind, should not one narrow down the first system that went wrong and then set up treatment, rather than simply 'reduce phlegm with reducing ST 40, and toning SP 3 as the horary Mother Earth on Earth channel?' I am not an herbalist, and the herbal repertoire is I am certain more sophisticated in the treating of phlegm. Nominally, the main causative systems for phlegm are SP, LU, K and SJ. But I have as often seen LV Stagnated involved, and much worse and far more dangerous, LV Heat and even Fire, especially when the nasty symptoms of globus hystericus and flank stagnation present. As often, HT is involved because of the Fire Water connect. Which means that multiple elements can be involved in creation of phlegm, one, maybe, more than the other. Read this with the other aphorism, 'Fire is the unsubstantial part of phlegm, and phlegm is the substantial part of fire'. K can be implicated in this sense by creating a Yin Xu Fire. LU can be implicated by creating a LU Yin Xu Dryness which becomes Fire. SP can be implicated by long term Damp congealing to become Fire. LV can be implicated by creating a Stagnation becoming heated and catching Fire. HT? Oddly it is the organ very vulnerable to phlegm attacks, [palpitations, arrhythmia, low or high BP, erratic BP, BP with a very narrow Pulse Pressure margin, insomnia, forgetfulness, erratic thought, mania, psychosis, behaviors bordering on insanity, coma and epilepsy] it is the zang least involved in it's creation. As oddly, " phlegm is never found in the Kidneys'. Simplistically 3 organs, SP, LU, and LV are involved in phlegm etiology and have the capacity to cause or espouse or engender one form of Fire or another. One more, K, can also cause a Fire by having it's yin run into xu. Theoretically at least, when treating phlegm caused by one or more of these organ systems, one skirts close to a Sleeping Fire. First dilemma: should one treat the actual element which is the primary cause of what led to phlegm accumulation? Or should one go for the simplistic, ST 40 - K 3 - SP 6 prescription? Second dilemma: if 'Fire is the unsubstantial part of phlegm', and if it so Cold, or Sleeping, if this term can be allowed, at what point will it decide to suddenly rise up and cause havoc? 'Phlegm goes wherever qi goes'. What this reads to a phobic healer is that if heating lets loose rising phlegm, it will travel by the path of least resistance, which is an Empty channel, and fly upwards, because that is the nature of Fire, it invariably rises, and impact into some crevice where it does the most damage. [continued] [Quoted courtesy of Phlegm: etiology and symptom. For referencing, visit: http://www.harcourt-international.com/e-books/pdf/443.pdf ] Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 I think a lot of your questions on treatment are already answered in the Clavey excerpt you cited -- i pasted part of it below. If you're interested in learning more, the book is highly recommended. IMO Phlegm theory and treatment, like a lot of things in TCM, doesn't begin to make much sense until you've studied Chinese herbal medicine. Robert Hayden Clavey, p308 (p44 of the already-cited pdf file): " To illustrate the importance of proper differentiation, a list of some of the possible treatment principles in phlegm disease is presented below. For a full discussion of these and other treatments, see both Chapter ?and Appendix ?on the history and development of phlegm disease theory in traditional Chinese medicine. ?. Weak Spleen transport, allowing phlegm to accumulate from damp, is treated by restoring normal transformation and transportation, while parching damp and transforming phlegm. ?. Kidney yang deficiency failing to support Spleen transformation of food and fluids is treated by warm transformation of damp and thin mucus, followed by tonification of both Spleen and Kidney yang. ?. Kidney yang deficiency failing to support Urinary Bladder qi transformation, allowing lower Jiao fluids to flood and become phlegm, is treated by restoration of Urinary Bladder qi transformation through tonification of Kidney yang. ?. Yin deficiency with fire drying fluids into phlegm is treated by moistening and transforming phlegm. ?. Pent-up heat in San Jiao drying fluids into phlegm is treated by cooling heat, moving qi and transforming phlegm.?? ?. Severe accumulation of thin mucus resulting from Spleen and/or Kidney yang deficiency is treated by first eliminating the thin mucus, then tonifying Spleen and Kidney yang. ?. Exogenous pathogenic factors invading the Lungs can bring about phlegm accumulation by disturbing the clearing and descending function of the Lungs. This must be treated by restoring Lung function and transforming phlegm. ?. Phlegm collecting into nodules must be softened with salty-cold herbs and then dispersed. ?. Food stagnation in the Stomach requires dispersal of the accumulated food and leading it downward into the Intestines for expulsion from the body. ??. Liver wind can be (and often is) complicated by phlegm, so that when Liver wind rises phlegm follows, and the mind is disturbed. Wind must be extinguished while phlegm is dispersed. ??. Phlegm obstructing the movement of Heart yang can cause chest pain, palpitations, epilepsy and depression. Phlegm must be scoured away to free Heart yang circulation. ??. Phlegm blocking the orifices is treated by opening the orifices and transforming phlegm. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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