RE: Tongue lashing and consideration

[Guest guest]

I don't think that Jason is the only contributor to this group who " tongue

lashes " other participants. I rarely contribute anything, because I don't

want to be ripped apart. It strikes me that there some people on the list

who are hear to learn and others who are hear to tell everyone else how much

they know and therefore how superior they are. People have many different

levels of knowledge and there are many different styles of acupuncture and

TCM, so its not clever to point at another and try and show them up, but it

is clever if you know a better way of doing something and can communicate it

with generosity and kindness and also encourage discussion which benefits

all of us.

Regards

Susie

 

>I think you need a 400 page book in Chinese (1200 in English)

>on " respect " . Then maybe I and others would be happy to engage. I

>don't think you are aware of how painful and unnecessary your

>tongue-lashings are to others. You demand sources and accuse others

>of " making things up " and then don't quote sources and make things

>up. You truly don't know the meaning of the word " respect " and I

>find it ironic you close your post that way. It's like the father

>who beats his child to a pulp and then kisses him afterward.

>Shameful. Or perhaps you are just a clumsy writer. Is this how you

>treat your patients?

 

>Shanna

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " susie "

<susie@p...> wrote:

> I don't think that Jason is the only contributor to this group who

" tongue

> lashes " other participants. I rarely contribute anything, because I

don't

> want to be ripped apart. It strikes me that there some people on

the list

> who are hear to learn and others who are hear to tell everyone else

how much

> they know and therefore how superior they are. People have many

different

> levels of knowledge and there are many different styles of

acupuncture and

> TCM, so its not clever to point at another and try and show them up,

but it

> is clever if you know a better way of doing something and can

communicate it

> with generosity and kindness and also encourage discussion which

benefits

> all of us.

> Regards

> Susie

>

 

I agree Susie, I would like to clarify my position. 1st – I am not

here to make any friends, I am not here to show any superiority, I am

here for 2 reasons: 1) to be involved in intelligent dialog about CM

and 2) to push the profession into a reality. Let me elaborate on #2

– Which is why I lash out. It is hard to have dialog when basic

knowledge is missing, and this is fine, because as you point out, we

are all at different levels. BUT, a major problem arises when people

purport expertise or make theories up or whatever without any tangible

grasp of reality, meaning knowledge of basic or higher level CM

theory. This is, as stated previous, one of the biggest problems with

practice in the West and makes our profession look like monkeys.

People take, IMO, too much liberty to expand upon theory when they do

not even know the basics and lack the massive amount of clinical

experience needed. – This is not directed at anyone, just the

profession as a whole… (I will be happy to discuss this idea further,

if people disagree)…

 

I for one do not purport anything that I cannot back up with

literature. I do not claim to `know it all', but I am clear what I

know and where it came from… This knowledge may or may not be wrong

(or right), but because I have a source and a pretty good grasp of the

basics we can have an intelligent discussion based on those ideas.

 

I will always point out when others are MSUing or ask for a source.

One should only be offended if they know they are MSUing ( and deny

it), so I suggest always say you are MSUing, or state something from a

source, or keep quite.

 

Furthermore, I said " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " -

Maybe this is worded poorly, but the intention is clear; Moxa is used

for phlegm conditions by many practitioners, meaning it is not

contradicted for Phlegm (conditions).. IS that hard to understand

(Shanna?)

 

So you ask for Respect, I will give it to anyone who respects the

medicine. IF you don't know, ask, and people will answer, but making

stuff up, IMO, is a quick way to lashing… I have never lashed anyone

who admitted what they didn't know and asked intelligent questions,

and I think that goes for most people… Happy to hear comments…

 

-

[Guest guest]

What justification to a rough, easily angered, perennially annoyed healer?

 

Healing presumes gentleness and restraint. The patient is already in pain,

sometimes bewildered, tired of wrong diagnosis and treatments which cost

time and money and suffering which have come to no avail.

 

He or she comes to the door asking to be diagnosed and healed, we are

alternative healers, supposedly more sensitive to the natural flow of

emotions.

 

What can justify a healer who is peremptory, abrupt and insensitive, if

not dictatorial, in dialogue and diagnosis?

 

Where is the kind word, the belated approach, the tolerance?

 

The one place this is not justifiable is with the patient.

The next one is in dialogue, in person or on forum.

 

A placid nature precedes a healing hand.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Ill times these, when one is not patient with the patient.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

I'm with you, Jason. John Garbarini

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason and John and Homi

 

I have no problem with people taking exception to others' opinions

or debating issues using kindness, logic, propriety and sources. I

do think we owe it to each other as professionals and as human

beings to use caution with our language, care in our tactics and to

keep degrading comments to oneself. I also think that using sweeping

generalizations such as " never moxa phlegm " is suspect. I only ask

that we treat each other with respect and always be able to suspend

disbelief with regard to making space for the possiblity, however

slight, that we as individuals, may not know everything and that

other approaches, though seemingly contradictory, may be

valid....just maybe. In this way, we continue to learn and correct

our own errors in judgement and practice. This has been the case

with the evolution of Asian Medicine for lo these many thousand

years. Respect, always.

 

Shanna

 

Chinese Medicine , John Garbarini

<johnlg_2000> wrote:

> I'm with you, Jason. John Garbarini

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason

 

Thanks for the elaboration with respect to your intentions

concerning the group. I do have two questions and readily admit that

I " don't know " .

One, what is MSUing? I'm new to computers!!

 

Two, could you please mention your sources? I do not find it " hard

to understand " what you have said, however, it still contradicts my

paltry few sources and I'd like to hear what your sources are so

that I could illuminate myself. I'd like to learn more about

this " moxa phlegm conditions all the time " and any other information

on phlegm or moxa in particular (other than the aforementioned

Clavey which I have ordered) Is the 2nd edition the newest?

 

Thanks for your consideration. I do still hope that you endeavor to

cultivate a more intelligent, compassionate voice on our groups. I

am sure we all have much to learn from you, however, you make it

very hard indeed. It is not intelligent to " lash " people all of whom

have at least some level of training in some tradition or other.

Your tone does not do your knowledge or training service I am sure.

It is inappropriate and unnecessary.

 

Shanna

 

> Furthermore, I said " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " -

> Maybe this is worded poorly, but the intention is clear; Moxa is

used

> for phlegm conditions by many practitioners, meaning it is not

> contradicted for Phlegm (conditions).. IS that hard to understand

> (Shanna?)

>

> So you ask for Respect, I will give it to anyone who respects the

> medicine. IF you don't know, ask, and people will answer, but

making

> stuff up, IMO, is a quick way to lashing… I have never lashed

anyone

> who admitted what they didn't know and asked intelligent questions,

> and I think that goes for most people… Happy to hear comments…

>

> -

[Guest guest]

To be honest guys this is starting to sound like the chiropractic profession all

over again.

 

I am a licensed chiropractor and also a licensed acupuncturist.

 

The acupncture / TCM professional is doing what the chiros have done for years

which has never progressed the chiropractic profession where it could be, due to

all the inner fighting and conflicts among themselves.

 

Who's technique is best, who has the best philosophy, who has the better

schools, etc.

 

There are so many different ways of practicing either TCM, acupuncture,

chiropractic, etc.

 

The bottom line is that it all works to some degree. Some patients may respond

to one technique over a different technique.

 

I haver never hesitated to refer a patient to another practioner who may be

better versed in a different technique if I am don't see my patient improving.

 

Case in point:

 

I have seen 3 different patients in the school acupuncture clinic being treated

for several months for tinnitus and dizziness without real good results. I was

asked to examine the patients from a western perspective. Upon doing an ear exam

I noticed an abundant of ear wax in all 3 patients. After removing the wax on a

couple of occasions the problems were solved.

 

I also seen patients who had been treated with chiropractic, massage and

physical therapy who were unreponsive to treatment. After a course of

acupuncture treatment they were symptom free.

 

I also had patients who were being treated with TCM and acupuncture for headache

and neck pain who were also unresponsive but became symptom free after a few

spinal manipulations.

 

There is a place for all techniques and several different therapies, some work

for some people, some don't work for other people. This does not mean the

techniques or therapy is useless, it only means it wasn't helpful for that

patient

 

I would hate to see the same thing happen to TCM practioners that has happened

to the chiros because someone or some group has a different belief system.

 

Even with the several degrees I have obtained, I am always open to learning what

works for others that I can learn from clinically. I don't always need the proof

that it works. If its valid then it should work, maybe not for everybody but it

should work enough to see the positive effects on the majority of people.

 

Brian

 

 

 

John Garbarini <johnlg_2000 wrote:I'm with you, Jason. John Garbarini

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John,

 

If this is the case, then you're not with me. If any one on this list has felt

lashed by my words on TCM, I apologize to you now. It's hard to know how people

take your words, when you can't see them. I do want to note that cleverness is

no excuse for rudeness.

 

I've gotten a paycheck over the past 20 years from teaching at a medical school

at the University of Texas, San Francisco State undergraduate and graduate

schools, and a variety of San Francisco area community colleges. Over the

years, I've had a chance to see what works in the learning process. My

experience has been that people are hardest on themselves when they are

genuinely trying to accomplish something. Having someone beat them additionally

does little to further the enterprise. It takes rewards to make the learning

process work. I'm as nurturing and as rewarding as possible in the context of

the classroom. I'm harsh when someone tests the boundaries of the community.

 

Whether in the classroom at a college or here online, my thesis is that we are

all volunteers ... and we're also all students. The issues of being " right " or

" wrong " get worked out with regard to cognition. Our job as community members

is to make it " safe " to have conversations sufficient for cognition to function.

 

In Service,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

John Garbarini

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:25 AM

Re: Re: Tongue lashing and consideration

 

 

I'm with you, Jason. John Garbarini

 

 

[Guest guest]

Brian,

With all due respect, the chiropractic issue is different, I think,

than what we are discussing here.

There are many techniques and methods that can be used to help

patients, but all of them are based on teachings that are agreed upon

by practitioners.

Don't all chiropractors agree on the anatomy and physiology of the

human body? Don't you all adjust the same vertabrae, and recognize the

same locations?

Chinese medicine also has basic principles that have been agreed

upon for centuries, and we are simply arguing that those criteria

should be addressed when making statements, not just make it up.

 

 

On Jul 20, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Brian Hardy wrote:

 

>

> The acupncture / TCM professional is doing what the chiros have done

> for years which has never progressed the chiropractic profession where

> it could be, due to all the inner fighting and conflicts among

> themselves.

>

> Who's technique is best, who has the best philosophy, who has the

> better schools, etc.

>

> There are so many different ways of practicing either TCM,

> acupuncture, chiropractic, etc.

>

> The bottom line is that it all works to some degree. Some patients may

> respond to one technique over a different technique.

[Guest guest]

Hi Shanna [and Susie],

 

I rarely put my self out on a limb by engaging in 'conversation' on this [or any

other group] due to exactly what is happening here. I have 30 years +

experience in TCM, Chinese Internal Martial Arts and 15 years as a

fire/paramedic and I still remain mostly silent, refusing to put my thoughts and

experience out there only to be scrutinized. Life is like a mighty horse with

the bridle made of love, the reigns respect and honor, fed on truth and ego as

the necessary waste. I am just a humble servant.

 

I applaud you. You have my ultimate respect. Your heart is in the right place

and I am out to make friends. Let me know if you ever make it to Seattle and we

will go out for Dim Sum.

 

Take care,

David

 

shannahickle <shannahickle wrote:

Hi Jason

 

Thanks for the elaboration with respect to your intentions

concerning the group. I do have two questions and readily admit that

I " don't know " .

One, what is MSUing? I'm new to computers!!

 

Two, could you please mention your sources? I do not find it " hard

to understand " what you have said, however, it still contradicts my

paltry few sources and I'd like to hear what your sources are so

that I could illuminate myself. I'd like to learn more about

this " moxa phlegm conditions all the time " and any other information

on phlegm or moxa in particular (other than the aforementioned

Clavey which I have ordered) Is the 2nd edition the newest?

 

Thanks for your consideration. I do still hope that you endeavor to

cultivate a more intelligent, compassionate voice on our groups. I

am sure we all have much to learn from you, however, you make it

very hard indeed. It is not intelligent to " lash " people all of whom

have at least some level of training in some tradition or other.

Your tone does not do your knowledge or training service I am sure.

It is inappropriate and unnecessary.

 

Shanna

 

> Furthermore, I said " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " -

> Maybe this is worded poorly, but the intention is clear; Moxa is

used

> for phlegm conditions by many practitioners, meaning it is not

> contradicted for Phlegm (conditions).. IS that hard to understand

> (Shanna?)

>

> So you ask for Respect, I will give it to anyone who respects the

> medicine. IF you don't know, ask, and people will answer, but

making

> stuff up, IMO, is a quick way to lashing… I have never lashed

anyone

> who admitted what they didn't know and asked intelligent questions,

> and I think that goes for most people… Happy to hear comments…

>

> -

 

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason

 

I have yet to hear you mention one source on any of your posts so

far in this discussion or the one we had on CHA. I do want to learn

from you and desire to know to what sources you are referring, for

instance, the 500 page Chinese/1200 page English language source

which remains unnamed.

 

> I for one do not purport anything that I cannot back up with

> literature. I do not claim to `know it all', but I am clear what I

> know and where it came from… This knowledge may or may not be wrong

> (or right), but because I have a source and a pretty good grasp of

the

> basics we can have an intelligent discussion based on those ideas.

>

> I will always point out when others are MSUing or ask for a

source.

> One should only be offended if they know they are MSUing ( and deny

> it), so I suggest always say you are MSUing, or state something

from a

> source, or keep quite.

>

> Furthermore, I said " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " -

> Maybe this is worded poorly, but the intention is clear; Moxa is

used

> for phlegm conditions by many practitioners, meaning it is not

> contradicted for Phlegm (conditions).. IS that hard to understand

> (Shanna?)

 

Just because " moxa is used for phlegm conditions by many

practitioners " does not constitute a source. Therefore, concluding

that it is or is not contraindicated for Phlegm conditions is

MSUing. Please, tell us your sources so we can all learn! I, in

fact, have been unable to find much information on the use of moxa

in general in English. I'm sure I just haven't bought the right

books yet. Could you please help me? I don't know enough about this

subject, obviously, to make further comments on the use of moxa. My

comments were, in general, trying to wake you up to the fact that

you were not citeing sources either and therefore, MSUing.

 

Shanna

 

 

>

> So you ask for Respect, I will give it to anyone who respects the

> medicine. IF you don't know, ask, and people will answer, but

making

> stuff up, IMO, is a quick way to lashing… I have never lashed

anyone

> who admitted what they didn't know and asked intelligent questions,

> and I think that goes for most people… Happy to hear comments…

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Hi Susie,

I agree with your points posted below words read ot of real time can easily

come across NOT as they are intended,although I think " lashing " does conjure

up an aggressive approach by and of its very meaning (I think originally

used by Jason?Im not sure)it was interesting to note that you used the word

hear " twice instead of " here " as that is exactly whats missing HERE IMO.

Regards Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, 21 July 2004 12:16:42 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Tongue lashing and consideration

 

I don't think that Jason is the only contributor to this group who " tongue

lashes " other participants. I rarely contribute anything, because I don't

want to be ripped apart. It strikes me that there some people on the list

who are hear to learn and others who are hear to tell everyone else how much

they know and therefore how superior they are. People have many different

levels of knowledge and there are many different styles of acupuncture and

TCM, so its not clever to point at another and try and show them up, but it

is clever if you know a better way of doing something and can communicate it

with generosity and kindness and also encourage discussion which benefits

all of us.

Regards

Susie

 

>I think you need a 400 page book in Chinese (1200 in English)

>on " respect " . Then maybe I and others would be happy to engage. I

>don't think you are aware of how painful and unnecessary your

>tongue-lashings are to others. You demand sources and accuse others

>of " making things up " and then don't quote sources and make things

>up. You truly don't know the meaning of the word " respect " and I

>find it ironic you close your post that way. It's like the father

>who beats his child to a pulp and then kisses him afterward.

>Shameful. Or perhaps you are just a clumsy writer. Is this how you

>treat your patients?

 

>Shanna

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Shanna,

 

Just for the heck of it, I did a quick google search and came up with

this from " Pushing the Envelope of Muxibustion " by Honora Lee Wolfe,

Dipl. Ac., Lic. Ac., FNAAOM. I like the opening paragraph because it

underscores the diverse nature of Asian medicine and the many ways

that it has been and is currently being practiced in many parts of the

world. My own personal views of Asian (Chinese) medicine are

constantly changing and have changed quite dramatically over the last

15 years. Here are a couple of paragaphs from the article. I give the

url at the end of the posting.

 

" For a number of years now I have been saying that the modern Chinese

teachings on moxibustion emanating from the People's Republic of China

have been overly narrow and doctrinaire. Having studied moxibustion

with pre-Liberation Chinese, Chinese from Hong Kong and Singapore, and

both Japanese and Korean practitioners, it is my experience that

moxibustion can be used to treat many more conditions than many

contemporary Chinese acupuncture and moxibustion textbooks suggest. As

part of my drive to broaden the Western understanding and scope of

moxibustion, I am always on the look-out for Chinese articles which

substantiate this point of view. In issue #11, 2002 of the Shang Hai

Zhong Yi Yao Za Zhi (Shanghai Journal of &

Medicinals), Xu Jie, of the Acupuncture & Moxibustion Orthopedic &

Tramatology Department of the Jiangxi College of ,

published an article titled, " Lifting the Borders of the Artemisia

Moxibustion Method of Treatment, " on pages 28-29 of that journal. A

precis of that article is given below. Hopefully it will help broaden

Western practitioners' use of this extremely important and effective

treatment modality. "

 

She continues later:

 

" 3. Dispelling phlegm & scattering fire

 

In terms of dispelling phlegm and scattering fire, Zhu Dan-xi used

this technique to treat runny nose with foul-smelling snivel when the

pulse is bowstring and small (i.e., fine), the right inch is slippery

and the left inch is choppy. This indicates a condition of " phlegm

depression fire and heat. " In this case, Zhu Dan-xi said to

moxibustion Shang Xing (GV 23), San Li (St 36), and He Gu (LI 4) to

cure this and he gave a case history of how he used moxibustion to

dispel phlegm and scatter fire. In the Ming dynasty, Gong Ju-zhong

said, " [When] phlegm diseases obtain fire, they can be resolved

because heat causes the qi to move and thus the fluids and humors

course and flow freely. " Likewise, Dr. Xu has used moxibstion in his

own clinical practice in order to dispel phlegm and scatter fire. "

 

The url of the full article is at:

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/journal/issues/articles/apr03/apr03_ezine_moxa_me\

thods.cfm

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle "

<shannahickle> wrote:

> Hi Jason

>

> I have yet to hear you mention one source on any of your posts so

> far in this discussion or the one we had on CHA. I do want to learn

> from you and desire to know to what sources you are referring, for

> instance, the 500 page Chinese/1200 page English language source

> which remains unnamed.

 

You have never asked. Like I said, If I say anything I will state the

source when asked. The book is & #30192; & #35777; & #35770; (tan zheng lun)

(sorry if the characters do not come through) published 1989 beijing.

It is not published in English, so the 1200 page is just an estimate.

 

>

> > I for one do not purport anything that I cannot back up with

> > literature. I do not claim to `know it all', but I am clear what I

> > know and where it came from… This knowledge may or may not be wrong

> > (or right), but because I have a source and a pretty good grasp of

> the

> > basics we can have an intelligent discussion based on those ideas.

> >

> > I will always point out when others are MSUing or ask for a

> source.

> > One should only be offended if they know they are MSUing ( and deny

> > it), so I suggest always say you are MSUing, or state something

> from a

> > source, or keep quite.

> >

> > Furthermore, I said " People moxa phlegm conditions all the time " -

> > Maybe this is worded poorly, but the intention is clear; Moxa is

> used

> > for phlegm conditions by many practitioners, meaning it is not

> > contradicted for Phlegm (conditions).. IS that hard to understand

> > (Shanna?)

>

> Just because " moxa is used for phlegm conditions by many

> practitioners " does not constitute a source.

 

Come on now – 1st, you never asked for a source... You have already

agreed and with most people on the list that moxa can be used for

phlegm... So do you really want a source or are trying to fight some

more? --> a) such a statement is backed up in the literature, but

also in personal experience. Like I said previous, anyone who has

studied moxa especially with Japanese Practitioners, knows such a

statement as true... I have observed too many practitioners to mention

treat phlegm with moxa, So this is a source… 1 type is personal

observations. (And if that is your type – just state it) But you want

an English source : Check out " Practical Moxibustion Therapy " by Junji

Mizutani - It is 71 pages of just moxa. Honestly such a statement is

just a statement of fact as far as I am concerned, similar to " Chinese

herbs are used by many practitioners to treat phlegm. " Also check out

the various Japanese meridian therapy books, but just because

something is not in English, means nothing. Remember this is CM… But

now you have your sources, happy?

 

Therefore, concluding

> that it is or is not contraindicated for Phlegm conditions is

> MSUing. Please, tell us your sources so we can all learn!

 

Not MSU… MSU= Making Stuff Up… I have not, you have the source, not

let's see the sources for all the other stuff on the other side. Dr.K

has showed us 1 from deadman, which now gives us something to discuss,

but now let's supply sources for the other stuff… Again anything I

have said that you want a source from just ask…

 

I, in

> fact, have been unable to find much information on the use of moxa

> in general in English. I'm sure I just haven't bought the right

> books yet. Could you please help me? I don't know enough about this

> subject, obviously, to make further comments on the use of moxa. My

> comments were, in general, trying to wake you up to the fact that

> you were not citeing sources either and therefore, MSUing.

 

I think it is common sense that you don't have to cite everything you

write. But if you say something out of the mainstream thought then

you should cite the source, or if don't fine, but if someone asks for

it then don't get offended and give it up… I, to my knowledge , have

not said anything out of the mainstream, so although I don't mind

supplying the sources, I did not find them necessary because so many

on people on the list provided support for the idea and no one asked

until now… SO for you knowledge MSU is different than just not

supplying a source.

 

-

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

> Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle "

> <shannahickle> wrote:

> > Hi Jason

> >

> > I have yet to hear you mention one source on any of your posts

so

> > far in this discussion or the one we had on CHA. I do want to

learn

> > from you and desire to know to what sources you are referring,

for

> > instance, the 500 page Chinese/1200 page English language source

> > which remains unnamed.

>

> You have never asked. Like I said, If I say anything I will state

the

> source when asked. The book is & #30192; & #35777; & #35770; (tan

zheng lun)

> (sorry if the characters do not come through) published 1989

beijing.

> It is not published in English, so the 1200 page is just an

estimate.

>

> >

> > > I for one do not purport anything that I cannot back up with

> > > literature. I do not claim to `know it all', but I am clear

what I

> > > know and where it came from… This knowledge may or may not be

wrong

> > > (or right), but because I have a source and a pretty good

grasp of

> > the

> > > basics we can have an intelligent discussion based on those

ideas.

> > >

> > > I will always point out when others are MSUing or ask for a

> > source.

> > > One should only be offended if they know they are MSUing ( and

deny

> > > it), so I suggest always say you are MSUing, or state

something

> > from a

> > > source, or keep quite.

> > >

> > > Furthermore, I said " People moxa phlegm conditions all the

time " -

> > > Maybe this is worded poorly, but the intention is clear; Moxa

is

> > used

> > > for phlegm conditions by many practitioners, meaning it is not

> > > contradicted for Phlegm (conditions).. IS that hard to

understand

> > > (Shanna?)

> >

> > Just because " moxa is used for phlegm conditions by many

> > practitioners " does not constitute a source.

>

> Come on now – 1st, you never asked for a source... You have

already

> agreed and with most people on the list that moxa can be used for

> phlegm... So do you really want a source or are trying to fight

some

> more? --> a) such a statement is backed up in the literature, but

> also in personal experience. Like I said previous, anyone who has

> studied moxa especially with Japanese Practitioners, knows such a

> statement as true... I have observed too many practitioners to

mention

> treat phlegm with moxa, So this is a source…

 

I have studied with no Japanese instructors. The last thing I want

to do is fight with you or anyone else and you can search the

archives and find this to be true. I truly am not aware of sources

on moxa--you assume we have all observed Japanese instructors which,

in my neck of the woods, is quite rare indeed. Mostly TCM here in

Texas, though I'm intrigued by Japanese methods.

 

1 type is personal

> observations. (And if that is your type – just state it) But you

want

> an English source : Check out " Practical Moxibustion Therapy " by

Junji

> Mizutani - It is 71 pages of just moxa. Honestly such a statement

is

> just a statement of fact as far as I am concerned

 

Thanks for the reference, finally. And I have actually asked you for

references before but you were too tired to answer. However, you are

not the author of any statements of fact as of yet so don't assume

something is one unless it is listed as such and you can reference

it. I am only trying to support the rigor which you claim to

support. Just because you consider something a statement of fact

doesn't necessarily make it so or not so.

 

 

 

, similar to " Chinese

> herbs are used by many practitioners to treat phlegm. " Also check

out

> the various Japanese meridian therapy books, but just because

> something is not in English, means nothing. Remember this is CM…

But

> now you have your sources, happy?

>

> Therefore, concluding

> > that it is or is not contraindicated for Phlegm conditions is

> > MSUing. Please, tell us your sources so we can all learn!

>

> Not MSU… MSU= Making Stuff Up… I have not, you have the source, not

> let's see the sources for all the other stuff on the other side.

Dr.K

> has showed us 1 from deadman, which now gives us something to

discuss,

> but now let's supply sources for the other stuff… Again anything I

> have said that you want a source from just ask…

 

I have exhausted my paltry supply of lame sources on the subject of

moxa. I support neither Homi's nor your arguments as yet since I am

still in the process of rounding up and reading said source

material. This is not a contest or a fight. It is merely a

scientific discussion.

 

 

>

> I, in

> > fact, have been unable to find much information on the use of

moxa

> > in general in English. I'm sure I just haven't bought the right

> > books yet. Could you please help me? I don't know enough about

this

> > subject, obviously, to make further comments on the use of moxa.

My

> > comments were, in general, trying to wake you up to the fact

that

> > you were not citeing sources either and therefore, MSUing.

>

> I think it is common sense that you don't have to cite everything

you

> write. But if you say something out of the mainstream thought then

> you should cite the source, or if don't fine, but if someone asks

for

> it then don't get offended and give it up… I, to my knowledge ,

have

> not said anything out of the mainstream, so although I don't mind

> supplying the sources, I did not find them necessary because so

many

> on people on the list provided support for the idea and no one

asked

> until now… SO for you knowledge MSU is different than just not

> supplying a source.

 

I think that discussion of Japanese methods, while germane,

interesting and most welcome, might not be considered mainstream by

all on a group called Traditional . It would be

easier for me (and maybe others?) if you would cite a source now and

then when talking about topics considered mainstream in Japanese

Medicine on this group. Again, I'm most interested in this topic and

grateful to finally sort all this out with you and get some valuable

information, albeit hard-won. I think I have stopped the bleeding

from the left side of my heart and the bruises to my spirit will, no

doubt, heal in time. You are, indeed, a brutal teacher; however not

the first I have encountered in my wide studies. I am sorry if I

have come across as antagonistic: I am, indeed, a precocious student

with a hunger for learning which borders on the voracious.

 

thanks, Shanna

>

> -

[Guest guest]

As far as I'm concerned, let people say what they want

to say. Some are brusk, others are polite, and I can't

play cop and judge to every person who is horrified

every time someone backs into a lamppost.

 

 

--- shannahickle <shannahickle wrote:

> Hi Jason and John and Homi

>

> I have no problem with people taking exception to

> others' opinions

> or debating issues using kindness, logic, propriety

> and sources. I

> do think we owe it to each other as professionals

> and as human

> beings to use caution with our language, care in our

> tactics and to

> keep degrading comments to oneself. I also think

> that using sweeping

> generalizations such as " never moxa phlegm " is

> suspect. I only ask

> that we treat each other with respect and always be

> able to suspend

> disbelief with regard to making space for the

> possiblity, however

> slight, that we as individuals, may not know

> everything and that

> other approaches, though seemingly contradictory,

> may be

> valid....just maybe. In this way, we continue to

> learn and correct

> our own errors in judgement and practice. This has

> been the case

> with the evolution of Asian Medicine for lo these

> many thousand

> years. Respect, always.

>

> Shanna