Acupuncture in Japan

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I found this article concerning acupuncture in Japan.

 

http://www.ejom.co.uk/backissues/vol3no2/feature2.html

 

Here is a brief exerpt from the article describing some of the more

commonly used techniques that deffer from the TCM approach. The

article describes some possible reasons that non-TCM approaches are

not adopted in other countries such as the U.S. Of interest to me was

the use of palation to select treatment points, since this is similar

to the way I am learning tuina. Also the use of non-inserted needles

and moxibustion would equate to the use of qigong (warm and intent

techniques). Do others us palpation to locate points?

 

Rich

 

From the article:

 

" Some of the methods that seem to be found regardless of the model of

practice or that are found more commonly in Japan than elsewhere are

the following:

 

-'the use of palpation, especially abdominal diagnosis and pulse

diagnosis in diagnosis and treatment selection. But several systems of

unusual palpation can also be found (see for example Manaka et al,

1995 -pages 139-141).

 

-'the use of palpation as a point location method. This is almost

universally used, and is additionally used in the discrimination of

the most effective treatment points for each patient.

 

-'the use of palpation as a tool for obtaining direct feedback as to

the immediate effects of an applied treatment technique.

 

-'the regular use of thinner needles, less deeply inserted.

 

-'the regular use of non-inserted needling techniques in some systems

of practice (e.g. Fukushima, 1991, Ono, 1988).

 

-'highly specialised uses of moxibustion with separate licensure and

many practitioners using only moxibustion for all patients that

present for treatment, regardless of condition.

 

-'the specialised uses of other methods such as cupping (Meguro,

1991), bloodletting (Maruyama, Kudo, 1982), etc., where that therapy

may be used alone in the treatment of patients regardless of condition.

 

-'the adaptation and modification of techniques (methods of

application, doses of stimulation, etc) so that they can be used

widely on any patient that presents for therapy (Birch, Ida, 1998). "

[Guest guest]

read all about it

http://jabinet.net

 

rh

 

Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...>

wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I found this article concerning acupuncture in Japan.

>

> http://www.ejom.co.uk/backissues/vol3no2/feature2.html

>

> Here is a brief exerpt from the article describing some of the more

> commonly used techniques that deffer from the TCM approach. The

> article describes some possible reasons that non-TCM approaches are

> not adopted in other countries such as the U.S. Of interest to me was

> the use of palation to select treatment points, since this is similar

> to the way I am learning tuina. Also the use of non-inserted needles

> and moxibustion would equate to the use of qigong (warm and intent

> techniques). Do others us palpation to locate points?

>

> Rich

>

> From the article:

>

> " Some of the methods that seem to be found regardless of the model of

> practice or that are found more commonly in Japan than elsewhere are

> the following:

>

> -'the use of palpation, especially abdominal diagnosis and pulse

> diagnosis in diagnosis and treatment selection. But several systems of

> unusual palpation can also be found (see for example Manaka et al,

> 1995 -pages 139-141).

>

> -'the use of palpation as a point location method. This is almost

> universally used, and is additionally used in the discrimination of

> the most effective treatment points for each patient.

>

> -'the use of palpation as a tool for obtaining direct feedback as to

> the immediate effects of an applied treatment technique.

>

> -'the regular use of thinner needles, less deeply inserted.

>

> -'the regular use of non-inserted needling techniques in some systems

> of practice (e.g. Fukushima, 1991, Ono, 1988).

>

> -'highly specialised uses of moxibustion with separate licensure and

> many practitioners using only moxibustion for all patients that

> present for treatment, regardless of condition.

>

> -'the specialised uses of other methods such as cupping (Meguro,

> 1991), bloodletting (Maruyama, Kudo, 1982), etc., where that therapy

> may be used alone in the treatment of patients regardless of condition.

>

> -'the adaptation and modification of techniques (methods of

> application, doses of stimulation, etc) so that they can be used

> widely on any patient that presents for therapy (Birch, Ida, 1998). "

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " kampo36 "

<kampo36> wrote:

> read all about it

> http://jabinet.net

 

Thanks for the link Robert. I have read some of the articles on your

site and find them very interesting. I have some questions concerning

Japanese Acupuncture and bodywork vs. the way TCM approaches certain

joint/spine problems. Possibly you can provide some brief insight (I

do not want to take up too much of your time).

 

In my experiences, there are almost always " obstruction " issues with

people's spines and joints. From what I have seen, these obstruction

patterns are in some way related to problems that may be occuring

throughout the body - both physical and mental. In some cases these

obstructions make that part of the body downright immobile - i.e. the

situation is extremely severe. Different bodywork therapies, e.g. Thai

Massage, Tuina, Shiatsu, attempt to address these obstruction patterns

in different ways - I like experimenting with different practitioners

and practices. :-)

 

In my experiences, TCM acupuncturists do not seem to refer patients

for bodywork treatments. I could be wrong about this since admittedly

my experience is limited myself, my family, and my

friends/acquaintences - though I have had a 15 year history utilizing

TCM. If you, or anyone else, have had different experiences I would be

very interested in hearing about it.

 

My question is, have you found acupunture sufficient to remove these

" very hard " obstructions in joints and the spine? Moxabustion,

cupping, gua sha could also be used but sometimes it appears that

direct physical manipulation is often necessary. Do you agree and if

so do you suggest bodywork (whether it be Asian or otherwise) to

patients who you think may need to have joint/spinal manipulation? Do

you do such bodywork yourself? How often do you see such occassions in

your own practice and how do Japanese view the issue in general - e.g.

acupuncture used in conjuction with Shiatsu?

 

Thanks for any insight that you can provide. Any other comments by

other forum members are welcome.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...>

wrote:

>

>

> My question is, have you found acupunture sufficient to remove these

> " very hard " obstructions in joints and the spine?

 

sometimes yes, sometimes no, it varies depending on the case.

 

>Moxabustion,

> cupping, gua sha could also be used but sometimes it appears that

> direct physical manipulation is often necessary. Do you agree and if

> so do you suggest bodywork (whether it be Asian or otherwise) to

> patients who you think may need to have joint/spinal manipulation?

 

oh, sure i'll refer if i think they need it, no question. every therapy and

every practitioner

has their limits. as ones experience grows one can handle more complex and

stubborn

cases but a very important role for the practitioner is to help guide the

patient to their

best possible options.

 

problem is that the standards of training and practice are so variable in CAM

that i don't

have too many people that i trust to refer to. by trust i mean that they are

not only

knowledgeable and technically proficient but also honest with themselves and the

patient.

the people to whom i do refer have earned my trust and respect.

 

>Do

> you do such bodywork yourself?

 

meaning spinal and joint manipulation? no. i do bodywork, sotai, structural

acupressure,

light traction, etc, integrated with the non-inserted and non-needle therapies

but spinal

and joint manipulation is not part of my practice. also it is not allowed

within my legal

scope of practice, so even if i wanted to do it i could really get myself into

trouble.

 

 

>How often do you see such occassions in

> your own practice and how do Japanese view the issue in general - e.g.

> acupuncture used in conjuction with Shiatsu?

 

hard to say how often i refer out. can't really speak to the second question,

either...

shiatsu, acupuncture, and moxibustion are all separately licensed in Japan

though a lot of

people have licenses in all three. i've heard acupuncturists in Japan mention

that they

need to keep doing shiatsu to make ends meet -- a lot of people don't like

needles and

moxa. most of the people in Japan i studied with don't do shiatsu and never

really

mentioned it in conjunction with acumoxa. some of the people in n. america that

i respect

the most (Stephen Brown, Junji Mizutani, Jeffrey Dann) do actively combine

shiatsu with

acumoxa.

 

the disclaimer here is that i have had quite a bit of training with Japanese

practitioners and

Americans who have studied with Japanese practitioners but i've really mostly

been

exposed to meridian therapy and a couple of other styles. also i make no claims

that my

practice (or even my views on practice) reflects acupuncture practice in Japan.

i can only

report on what i've seen, heard or read and offer my limited opinion.

 

 

rh

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...>

wrote:

>> In my experiences, TCM acupuncturists do not seem to refer patients

> for bodywork treatments.

 

just wanted to mention too that i worked with a phenomenal tuina doctor at the

school in

Miami -- Gordon (Guorong) Xu. he did some pretty amazing stuff and when i was

clinic

director there i'd always try to get the tough musculoskeletal cases to come in

on his shift

to get checked out. i learned a lot about orthopedics from watching him. and

no, i would

never even think of attempting to do the stuff he does without years of

dedicated

supervised training -- i think you could hurt someone very easily never mind

getting sued.

but he really got some spectacular results.

 

his brother George is a well-known taiji instructor in SanFran, i think.

 

rh

[Guest guest]

--- Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

> My question is, have you found acupunture sufficient

> to remove these

> " very hard " obstructions in joints and the spine?

 

I haven't, but acupuncture plays about a 70 percent

role in my practice. The rest is through my

manipulation, another bodyworker or the patient's own

stretchign and exercise.

 

I can't overstate how important the Hua Tuo Jia Ji

points are in conjunction with the Governing channel

and Governing channel influential points.

 

Bye,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I suppose a more general question which this topic seems to lead to

is when are needles more effective or bodywork more effective. There

are a couple of situations where I've found tuina / shiatsu to be

more effective than needling. Namely, in liver qi stagnation and

sinus problems. Needling helps to move qi, but the best way to move

qi seems to be to move the flesh around. And in particular addressing

the back. This helps everyone. And I've had numerous patients with

clogged sinuses that needles didn't seem to do much for but five

minutes of tuina could free up.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply Robert. Very much appreciate it.

 

Regards,|

Rich