Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

>

> I, and many others on these Lists, have argued that there is NO

> ALTERNATIVE (even in China) to WM.

 

I haven't gone to a WM in 25 years and my wife hasn't gone in 20 years

- We made the mistake of choosing an hospital for childbirth - but

heck we were young and uniformed. :-) My son hasn't used WM in 15

years. We couldn't be healthier - though we all have our challenges in

life. So, for our family there is any alternative - i.e. don't go to a

WM hospital or doctor. :-) Now there are lots of people who believe

there is no alternative, and they will use WM. That's fine. It is

their life, not mine.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

If its any comfort,

WM nurses could earn CEUs at the National Qigong Association's

conference this past weekend. There were quite a few of them in the

classes I attended.

I also met a lot of grammar school teachers ...

 

I found myself sitting next to MD.s during lecture classes twice.

(The MDs didn't volunteer that they were MDs until I got them to chat

during break. I'd noticed during the presentations that they were

taking lots and lots of notes so I asked.)

 

Penel

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

I wrote earlier: " I, and many others on these Lists, have argued that

there is NO ALTERNATIVE (even in China) to WM " .

 

Rich replied:

> Hi Phil, I haven't gone to a WM in 25 years and my wife hasn't

> gone in 20 years - We made the mistake of choosing an hospital for

> childbirth - but heck we were young and uniformed. :-) My son

> hasn't used WM in 15 years. We couldn't be healthier - though we

> all have our challenges in life. So, for our family there is any

> alternative - i.e. don't go to a WM hospital or doctor. :-) Now

> there are lots of people who believe there is no alternative, and

> they will use WM. That's fine. It is their life, not mine.

> Regards, Rich

..

Rich, IMO, you and your family are very lucky indeed. I hope that

your luck holds out indefinitely.

 

Thank God, MY payments to hospitals or GPs over the 62 years of

my life so far are minimal, probably less than some unfortunates

pay in 1 year.

 

However, I am acutely aware of the great benefits of WM. In my

own family and circle of friends, WM has saved MANY lives that

otherwise would have been lost or seriously impaired.

 

Think of trauma- & burn- surgery / care, needed cosmetic surgery

(cleft lip / palate, etc), ICU, pacemakers, coronary arterial bypass

surgery, caesarean section, acute appendicitis, acute gallbladder /

ureteral calculi, cancer care, immunodiagnostics, scintigraphy,

CAT/MRI scans, etc.

 

As I said, I see no practical alternative to the massive infrastructure

& facilities of WM at this time.

 

I do, however, see a great role for integrating the best aspects of

TCM, AP, Hom, Osteo, etc into the WM model.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

> .

> Rich, IMO, you and your family are very lucky indeed. I hope that

> your luck holds out indefinitely.

 

I do not know what " luck " is. Julie and I are just open to new ideas

and we are willing to try them out. We try this and we try that - and

it makes for an interesting and healthful life. Life, I believe, is

about change. Where there is " stagnation " - whether in the mind,

spirit, or body - there is bound to be some problems. Why? Because it

is the nature of qi - of the Universe - to Change. :-)

 

>

> Think of trauma- & burn- surgery / care,

 

For some type of trauma, WM (meaning instrumentality) may be required.

Of course, there are many alternative methods that will speed up the

process of " repair " . So, I agree, for this aspect of crisis, traumatic

healing, instrumentality is useful. But on the otherhand, if it wasn't

there and I died, then I die. I am going to die sooner or later

anyway. :-) It is how I live my life and what I learn that counts for me.

 

 

.... needed cosmetic surgery

 

.... Hmmmm ... Well I guess before WM, people used all kinds of stuff

and sticked it in themselves, because they wanted to look better. I

have seen some really interesting documentaries of how people of all

kinds of cultures use their body as a laboratory. For them it was

necessary, for me it is not.

ICU, pacemakers, coronary arterial bypass

> surgery, caesarean section, acute appendicitis, acute gallbladder /

> ureteral calculi, cancer care, immunodiagnostics, scintigraphy,

> CAT/MRI scans, etc.

> As I said, I see no practical alternative to the massive

infrastructure & facilities of WM at this time.

 

You may believe that all this is necessary, but there are other

alternatives. Alternatives, come from Awareness and looking at things

in an entirely new way. Just like Einstein and Heisenberg did. :-)

 

>

> I do, however, see a great role for integrating the best aspects of

> TCM, AP, Hom, Osteo, etc into the WM model.

 

I do not believe that integration ever works because there is no

uniform underlying theory to draw upon to address new events as they

happen in our lives.

 

The health viewpoint system that I draw upon is pretty simple:

 

1) I change (move on) because it is my nature to change. This is

another way of saying that it is the nature of the universe change.

2) When I am ill, it is because my mind, my spirit, or qi (that which

creates me) is not flowing.

3) I maintain health - and thereby keep " growing " - by removing

obstructions (mind, spirit, physical body), and allowing myself to

change. There are always new obstructions - because these are what

make me Change. Obstructions -> Change -> and Obstructions -> and

Change. The Ups and Downs of Life. :-)

 

And you know what ... it works - for me, for my family, and for

others. Maybe it is this viewpoint that is what you call " luck " . :-)

Life can be simple .. when I allow it to be simple. Or it is complex

when I want it to be compelx. It's up to me.:-) Or as my friend always

says: " You gotta do, what you gotta do. " :-) Why else have a Life? :-)

 

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi Rich,

>

> I wrote earlier: " I, and many others on these Lists, have argued

that

> there is NO ALTERNATIVE (even in China) to WM " .

>

> Rich replied:

> > Hi Phil, I haven't gone to a WM in 25 years and my wife hasn't

> > gone in 20 years - We made the mistake of choosing an hospital for

> > childbirth - but heck we were young and uniformed. :-) My son

> > hasn't used WM in 15 years. We couldn't be healthier - though we

> > all have our challenges in life. So, for our family there is any

> > alternative - i.e. don't go to a WM hospital or doctor. :-) Now

> > there are lots of people who believe there is no alternative, and

> > they will use WM. That's fine. It is their life, not mine.

> > Regards, Rich

> .

> Rich, IMO, you and your family are very lucky indeed. I hope that

> your luck holds out indefinitely.

>

> Thank God, MY payments to hospitals or GPs over the 62 years of

> my life so far are minimal, probably less than some unfortunates

> pay in 1 year.

>

> However, I am acutely aware of the great benefits of WM. In my

> own family and circle of friends, WM has saved MANY lives that

> otherwise would have been lost or seriously impaired.

 

Phil,

 

You are so correct. WM is needed my many and Rich can only be

thankful (as can I) that he and his family hasn't needed WM. But

his 'story' is a far cry from representing any evidence that may

suggest that WM is not needed (for the public as a whole).

Furthermore, stats about how 'bad' WM drugs etc. can be are also not

representative of any evidence that WM is (again) not needed. The

logic is based IMO only on nonsense. The whole picture MUST be looked

at, not just 1 family's history. This bashing (or devaluing) of WM,

as said before, only makes our profession look immature - hey but

that is just my opinion...

 

-

[Guest guest]

At night the Yin self watches the designs of the day, and creates a

template,

which the next day, the Yang self enacts, and calls it 'das-ta-neh " *,

destiny.

 

Nothing ever happens to one, that one did not author the design of.

 

das-ta-neh - old Persian word

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

I can only quote a very valued Chinese Proverb:

 

" Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it " :-)

 

You know what you know and I know what I know. We are different people

leading different lives for different reasons. In my life there is no

need for WM - for me, my family and most of my friends - and it is not

because we are fortunate or lucky - it is because of who we are and

what we know from our own experiences. Not the experiences of someone

who lived 2000 years ago, or someone doing research in a

pharmaceutical company 2000 miles away. It is what we learned in our

lives. Everyone is different, and what is True for you, is just

something Different for me.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

> The whole picture MUST be looked

> at, not just 1 family's history. This bashing (or devaluing) of WM,

> as said before, only makes our profession look immature - hey but

> that is just my opinion...

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I have to disagree with you strongly on this issue you raise. There are some

points I would like to address:

 

1. You say that WM interventions have saved many people, and you have

personal experience of this within your family.

 

What you attribute to a successful WM intervention may have been in the

public domain for hundreds of years - WM has not cornered the market in any

particular technique. An awareness of the history of medicine east and west

would be useful! For example, there is archeological evidence to show that

tooth implants were done in Europe 2000 years ago. Surgery was practiced in

Ancient Egypt, India and China before Christ. A form of innoculation against

bacterial infection was used in China in the 17th century (using scabs from

an infected survivor). Even " caesarean section " was practiced thousands of

years ago! Indeed many successful WM interventions have been stolen from

other medical systems and dressed up as novel western scientific discovery.

In general, we should be a lot more humble and thankful for the global

origins of our conventional western medical system - which is already an

" integrative system " as you put it.

 

 

2. You cite WM interventions for medical problems that clearly have a strong

lifestyle component - e.g. " heart bypass " .

 

Heart disease is a 'disease of civilisation' that tobacco manufacturers have

exported worldwide. Stop smoking and reduce the chances of heart disease (

and hence the need for a bypass op) by 50% within two years (

http://www-depdb.iarc.fr/who/menu.htm ). History of WM is splitting at the

seams with examples of corrupt science. This corrupt science is as an

approach that seeks out non-existent problems for technological solutions

the industry has created. Put crudely this 'gee whiz fixit' mentality can

get us to the moon and back, but it cannot dig us out of the 'designer

disease' trap it creates with clever fixes like heart bypass operations, or

designer drugs like prozac and zoladex. Just go back a couple of months and

check out the 'prozac scandal' or the 'zoladex scandal' on Google. I rest my

case here by citing an article from this week's Sunday Times, P6 Aug 29 2004

" Drug firms branded 'disease-mongers' "

 

3. You say " I do, however, see a great role for integrating the best

aspects of TCM, AP, Hom, Osteo, etc into the WM model. "

 

The integrative medicine you are advocating is already here. " Integration "

is proceeding - already been done, is being done, and will be done by WM -

and just look at the mess it is making! WM is an eclectic (this is a polite

word for " thief " ) which will use anything it can get its hands on to

re-package and re-sell as the latest medical gizmo for the latest disease it

can invent. I agree with Tan Jit Kiat on a similar thread that TCM is being

mis-treated by WM. We should be more critical of western research

methodology, and a lot less inclined to be phazed by gee-whiz technobabble

coming out of the medical industry. TCM procedures of test and

verification stand on their own merit and should be insisted on when studies

are undertaken.

 

Putting TCM in a WM context is quite frankly an insult to a great treasure -

all that is left is an empty shell that can be half-heartedly applied in an

adjuvant or a palliative context after WM has done its damage.

Practitionersof this pseudo-TCM are riding on the backs of their victims who

are literally wired-up and plumbed-into the WM " heart-attack machine " (I

borrow this very appropro expression from " Desolation Row " by Bob Dylan).

This pseudo-TCM is quite frankly grotesque and disgusting.

 

Mao's regime may have been harsh, but he did the Chinese people a favour by

making them rely on homegrown resources such as TCM and wean themselves off

reliance on WM that is designed to enslave patients, not free them from

disease. TCM practitioners should be aware of this legacy and their

responsibility to pass on TCM to future generations untarnished.

Incidentally, this is not to say TCM cannot evolve within its own paradigm,

but that is NOT the same as integrating it within WM.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

" For the simple truth is that truth is very often hard to come by, and that

once found it may easily be lost again. Erroneous beliefs may have an

astonishing power to survive, for thousands of years, in defiance of

experience, with or without the aid of conspiracy. The history of science,

and especially of medicine, could furnish us with a number of good

examples. " Karl Popper, from his lecture " On the Sources of Knowledge and

Ignorance " first delivered before the British Academy in 1960. Proc Br Ac

46.

 

-

 

Chinese Medicine

Monday, August 30, 2004 9:07 PM

Re: Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

Hi Rich,

 

I wrote earlier: " I, and many others on these Lists, have argued that

there is NO ALTERNATIVE (even in China) to WM " .

 

Rich replied:

> Hi Phil, I haven't gone to a WM in 25 years and my wife hasn't

> gone in 20 years - We made the mistake of choosing an hospital for

> childbirth - but heck we were young and uniformed. :-) My son

> hasn't used WM in 15 years. We couldn't be healthier - though we

> all have our challenges in life. So, for our family there is any

> alternative - i.e. don't go to a WM hospital or doctor. :-) Now

> there are lots of people who believe there is no alternative, and

> they will use WM. That's fine. It is their life, not mine.

> Regards, Rich

..

Rich, IMO, you and your family are very lucky indeed. I hope that

your luck holds out indefinitely.

 

Thank God, MY payments to hospitals or GPs over the 62 years of

my life so far are minimal, probably less than some unfortunates

pay in 1 year.

 

However, I am acutely aware of the great benefits of WM. In my

own family and circle of friends, WM has saved MANY lives that

otherwise would have been lost or seriously impaired.

 

Think of trauma- & burn- surgery / care, needed cosmetic surgery

(cleft lip / palate, etc), ICU, pacemakers, coronary arterial bypass

surgery, caesarean section, acute appendicitis, acute gallbladder /

ureteral calculi, cancer care, immunodiagnostics, scintigraphy,

CAT/MRI scans, etc.

 

As I said, I see no practical alternative to the massive infrastructure

& facilities of WM at this time.

 

I do, however, see a great role for integrating the best aspects of

TCM, AP, Hom, Osteo, etc into the WM model.

[Guest guest]

Rich,

 

There is a major difference between you and I here. You are viewing the

world through the eyes of yourself, saying that 'it works for me why can't

it work for everyone.' But the problem here is there are people that aren't

like you, and will never be like you and your friends. It is IMO, totally

egocentric. In your world you would rather die that let WM touch you, this

is a personal issue you have. But there are millions of people that would

rather live and actually do live due to WM, and research / history/

anthropology supports that this would not have happened with alterative

medicine (and wasn't). One can easily look back and see what local medicine

was doing when WM came in and saved the day for many diseases etc... (BTW-

this is not saying that WM hasn't also caused harm, but that is a different

story.) I think it would be interesting for you to take a trip to Africa

and try the teach the people to meditate, practice qi gong, and chew on

wheat grass to cure their problems like AIDS and other real diseases. Not

only is alterative not able to handle the immense need of health care, in

many situations they just don't have the firepower. Antibiotics, for

example, are unparalleled in alternative medicine. Yes they have been

overused, but they work for many things, that alterative medicine really

cannot touch.

 

On the hand looking, I am trying to look at the world from a medical

anthropological perspective and I see how beneficial WM is and can be in

many situations - one's that alternative medicine (to date) has not proven

to beat. It is real easy to say , " hey I know this guy who beat Stage IV

Cancer by meditating and juicing, can't everyone do this??? " or " this gal

bought this hepatitis cure from the internet, and her hep c is now gone, see

there are alternatives one just has to look. " Granted one should always

look for alternatives to disease, and personal stories are also inspiring,

but that is a long way from actually working for the mass populous. IF you

don't see the problem which the above, please meditate on it for a couple of

days and let me know.

 

Furthermore, WM is not the world's most dominant medicine for no reason at

all.. But I am sure you have some conspiracy theory on why that is. My

theory is that for one reason, WM went into third world countries with force

and made immediate changes (saved lives fast) where people were just getting

slaughtered. Yes there are problems with WM, but extracting the good is IMO

a mature thing to do, instead of the knee jerk resistance because of some

personal belief or beef you have. This is nothing about who I am and who

you are, it is about the world as a whole and looking at the big picture.

 

Finally, A couple of weeks ago, I read at the bottom of someone's post, it

might have been you, but it was some joke about doctors " what is the

difference between doctors and GOD, - God doesn't think they are a doctor. "

This is so embarrassing and I thought about leaving the group, as you see I

didn't and especially because I have also probably said embarrassing things

also, but come on. But, such an attitude is quite disappointing. I don't

know what happened to you (or them) but there are many great MEDICAL doctors

out there that really care about health and healing. WM has great tools, you

may never see this because of close-mindedness, and that is fine, but

putting down the other camp will never help us heal the world, and

especially does not help alterative medicine, it makes one look immature and

bitter. A better strategy, IMO, is to try to prove how good alterative

medicine can be in certain scenarios and chip away at the block. Set up

trials, gather research etc. etc.

 

So I find it quite funny that you make this statement " and what is True for

you, is just something Different for me. " Yet you miss the whole essence of

the statement.You seem to be projecting your reality on everyone else. But

I do respect where you are coming from, and think that you are very

fortunate to have found a way of life that works for you. But do you think

it is beneficial to discount another's system, and one that have proven to

save lives, in exchange for your constructed paradigm?

 

-

 

_____

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

Monday, August 30, 2004 8:07 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

 

Jason,

 

I can only quote a very valued Chinese Proverb:

 

" Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it " :-)

 

You know what you know and I know what I know. We are different people

leading different lives for different reasons. In my life there is no

need for WM - for me, my family and most of my friends - and it is not

because we are fortunate or lucky - it is because of who we are and

what we know from our own experiences. Not the experiences of someone

who lived 2000 years ago, or someone doing research in a

pharmaceutical company 2000 miles away. It is what we learned in our

lives. Everyone is different, and what is True for you, is just

something Different for me.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

> The whole picture MUST be looked

> at, not just 1 family's history. This bashing (or devaluing) of WM,

> as said before, only makes our profession look immature - hey but

> that is just my opinion...

>

> -

[Guest guest]

The basic problem with WM is that its success in some areas has led to its

overuse -- with detrimental effects on health -- in others. Only the

inordinately obstinate would argue that when it comes to life-threatening

trauma & pathology, WM and its infrastructure is the best approach. On the

other hand, when it comes to the treatment of psychiatric disease, chronic

disorders and disease prevention, WM has at best a mixed record, and in many

cases, is an abysmal failure. In such instances, I would argue that an

alternative approach should be primary, while WM would be best reserved for

secondary or tertiary tx.

 

But let's look for a second at the four diagnoses most often seen at a WM

PCP's office. They are, according to " National Ambulatory Medical Care

Survey: 2002 Summary, " co-authored by David Woodwell and Donald Cherry at

the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS):

 

Hypertension

Common cold

Sore throat

Diabetes

Arthritis and joint disorders.

 

Would anyone argue that most of these disorders are not effectively

treatable by alternative methods, with far less risk to the patient? Of

course, if the condition should prove refractory to alternative tx, then

referral for treatment or co-management would, at that point, be in the

patient's best interest.

 

Unfortunately, our system has it backwards. Instead of the most common

problems being treated by the therapy posing the greatest benefit and least

risk first, the patients are initially subjected to the treatment with the

greatest risk and least efficacy.

 

Look, for example, at chiropractic. Multiple studies, including large-scale

reviews, have concluded that chiropractic management of low back pain is

more effective and less dangerous than medical treatment for the same

diagnoses. However, I, like most of the chiropractors in the U.S., weekly

receive patients who have been to the WM PCP, orthopedist, undergone months

of western physical therapy, and wind up on my doorstep, not by referral,

but out of desperation.

 

I should have seen them months, if not years ago, and in fact, in all such

cases, I should be the primary point of contact for the patient. Instead,

tens of thousands of dollars are wasted while the patient suffers.

 

Yes, WM is not useless. But it is vastly overrated and overutilized.

 

 

Avery L. Jenkins, DC, DACBN, FIAMA

Chiropractic Physician

Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition

Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncture

Kent, CT

www.docaltmed.com

 

 

" There is no meaning in life except the meaning that man gives his life by

the unfolding of his powers. "

--Erich Fromm

-

" "

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, August 30, 2004 6:12 PM

Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> <@e...> wrote:

> > Hi Rich,

> >

> > I wrote earlier: " I, and many others on these Lists, have argued

> that

> > there is NO ALTERNATIVE (even in China) to WM " .

> >

> > Rich replied:

> > > Hi Phil, I haven't gone to a WM in 25 years and my wife hasn't

> > > gone in 20 years - We made the mistake of choosing an hospital for

> > > childbirth - but heck we were young and uniformed. :-) My son

> > > hasn't used WM in 15 years. We couldn't be healthier - though we

> > > all have our challenges in life. So, for our family there is any

> > > alternative - i.e. don't go to a WM hospital or doctor. :-) Now

> > > there are lots of people who believe there is no alternative, and

> > > they will use WM. That's fine. It is their life, not mine.

> > > Regards, Rich

> > .

> > Rich, IMO, you and your family are very lucky indeed. I hope that

> > your luck holds out indefinitely.

> >

> > Thank God, MY payments to hospitals or GPs over the 62 years of

> > my life so far are minimal, probably less than some unfortunates

> > pay in 1 year.

> >

> > However, I am acutely aware of the great benefits of WM. In my

> > own family and circle of friends, WM has saved MANY lives that

> > otherwise would have been lost or seriously impaired.

>

> Phil,

>

> You are so correct. WM is needed my many and Rich can only be

> thankful (as can I) that he and his family hasn't needed WM. But

> his 'story' is a far cry from representing any evidence that may

> suggest that WM is not needed (for the public as a whole).

> Furthermore, stats about how 'bad' WM drugs etc. can be are also not

> representative of any evidence that WM is (again) not needed. The

> logic is based IMO only on nonsense. The whole picture MUST be looked

> at, not just 1 family's history. This bashing (or devaluing) of WM,

> as said before, only makes our profession look immature - hey but

> that is just my opinion...

>

> -

[Guest guest]

I agree with Sammy that WM has stolen a wide range of disease treatments

from other healthcare systems around the world.

 

Another point I would like to raise to the group is the constant outpour by

WM P.R. sections as to what WM is gonna treat effectively in the future.

We're being bombarded with constant claims to futuristic cures from

genetics, to molecular, that simply haven't happened and probably won't

happen. If TCM did that, we'd be accused of false claims, propaganda, sued

and expelled. Why is it that WM can get away with it?

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

 

 

sammy_bates [sammy_bates]

31 August 2004 10:54

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

What you attribute to a successful WM intervention may have been in the

public domain for hundreds of years - WM has not cornered the market in any

particular technique. An awareness of the history of medicine east and west

would be useful! For example, there is archeological evidence to show that

tooth implants were done in Europe 2000 years ago. Surgery was practiced in

Ancient Egypt, India and China before Christ. A form of innoculation against

bacterial infection was used in China in the 17th century (using scabs from

an infected survivor). Even " caesarean section " was practiced thousands of

years ago! Indeed many successful WM interventions have been stolen from

other medical systems and dressed up as novel western scientific discovery.

In general, we should be a lot more humble and thankful for the global

origins of our conventional western medical system - which is already an

" integrative system " as you put it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

> Rich,

>

> There is a major difference between you and I here. You are viewing

> the world through the eyes of yourself,

 

That is all any of us can do - unless someone has figured out how to

view the world through someone else's eyes - Hun Mind. :-)

 

> saying that 'it works for me why can't it work for everyone.'

 

What I am saying is what works for me, works for me. What works for my

family, works for my family, and what works for my friends, works for

my friends. My family doesn't use WM. You can choose to use it if you

wish. But it certainly is not necessary in my life, just because it is

necessary in yours. I figured out how to do without it.

 

> In your world you would rather die that let WM touch you, this

> is a personal issue you have.

 

Actually, the reason I do not use WM is because I think I will live a

longer and happier life. So far, so good. Knock wood. :-) You know,

there are many, many people living today and in the past who lived

glorious lives without ever going to WM doctors. It is possible.

There is quality, quantity - and both. I am shooting for both. :-)

 

 

> But there are millions of people that would rather live and actually

> do live due to WM, and research / history/ > anthropology supports >

>that this would not have happened with alterative medicine (and

wasn't).

 

This is your belief, and that's fine. No way to know if people as a

whole are worse off or better off. But all those who want to rely on

WM are free to do so. Most of my friends who rely on it are very sick

with chronic illnesses due to lifelong " suppression " or chronic pain

due to unnecessary surgery, etc. Some have died. I am in great shape

and living a great life - at 53. So, what works for me works for me. I

rather be me than them right now. But I am not suggesting that they be

like me. They are who they are. I hope the pills, surgery, and scans

work out for them.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5868785/

 

However, I like to keep things simple. Moving, sleeping, eating small

amounts of food, not taking things too seriously, and enjoying.

 

> Furthermore, WM is not the world's most dominant medicine for no

>reason at all.. But I am sure you have some conspiracy theory on why

>that is.

 

I think WM offers the promise of " health in a box " and it is very

appealing to people who rather spend their time " making money " than

" make health " . I have lots of friends in China who use WM instead of

CM. Why? Because CM takes " too much time " . They want to spend their

time in front of a computer making money or traveling around making

deals. :-) The irony is that people end up spending all the money they

made at the doctors office or nursery home, hoping someone else can

make them well where they themselves have failed. I see it happening

around me all the time. It is a crazy universe we live in. :-) Be that

as it may. We all are here to learn our own lessons in Life. As for

me, I spend my time breathing and enjoying and leave the " rat race " to

others. I actually prefer it this way. :-)

 

 

> I don't know what happened to you (or them) but there are many

>great MEDICAL doctors out there that really care about health and

>healing. WM has great tools, you

> may never see this because of close-mindedness

 

What makes you think I have never seen the " great tools " of WM? Of

course I have and then I moved on and found something better. This is

how I learn. Some people may move on and others may choose to stick

with WM. It is up to each individual to decide for himself/herself.

Unfortunately, as you have stated, we in Western world have took it

upon ourselves to Save the rest of the world. Well, maybe we should

work on ourselves first before we take on the lives of others. Are we

so happy as a culture that we can now say what is best for everyone

else in this world? I don't see it.

 

 

> So I find it quite funny that you make this statement " and what is >

True for

> you, is just something Different for me. " Yet you miss the whole

essence of

> the statement.You seem to be projecting your reality on everyone else.

 

As far as I can tell, I am saying what is good for me, is good for me.

I am making no judgements about what is " good " for others. People can

go to the WM doctor and take as many pills as they want. The only cost

to me is that I have to pay additional insurance and taxes to pay for

this endless thirst by others for " health in a box " , but such is life.

I think the current percentage of GNP going to " healthcare " is over

15% and climbing. Far more than anywhere else in the world with no

obvious benefits. I think the people in Italy are far happier and they

get 5 weeks vacation very year! Now that is Living a Life. :-)

 

 

But

> I do respect where you are coming from, and think that you are very

> fortunate to have found a way of life that works for you. But do

you think

> it is beneficial to discount another's system, and one that have

proven to

> save lives, in exchange for your constructed paradigm?

 

I just discounted in for myself because I have found alternatives as

have my family and friends. Everyone is free to do what they want in

Life. We all have something to Learn. :-) Thanks for your comments!

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Surely there is a clear role for both Western Medicine and Oriental Medicine

in our world and that the can co-exist to everyone's benefit? I have to say

that many conspiracy theories about Western medicine really don't hold up

and when you meet representatives of " Western " medicine - the nurses and

doctors who work tirelessly in hospitals, how could you ever imagine that

these people do not value the wellfare of their patients? The advances in

medical science have been estounding over the last 50 years.

 

Simplistically in my own context I see playing a powerful

role in preventing illness arriving to my doorstep. However, if I'm ever

unfortunate enough to have a severe heart attack or a stroke I won't be

looking up acupuncturists in the Yellow Pages. Maybe use of Chinese

Medicine will mean that I never need to make that phonecall.

 

Dermot

 

-

" "

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:09 PM

RE: Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

>

> Rich,

>

> There is a major difference between you and I here. You are viewing the

> world through the eyes of yourself, saying that 'it works for me why

can't

> it work for everyone.' But the problem here is there are people that

aren't

> like you, and will never be like you and your friends. It is IMO, totally

> egocentric. In your world you would rather die that let WM touch you,

this

> is a personal issue you have. But there are millions of people that would

> rather live and actually do live due to WM, and research / history/

> anthropology supports that this would not have happened with alterative

> medicine (and wasn't). One can easily look back and see what local

medicine

> was doing when WM came in and saved the day for many diseases etc... (BTW-

> this is not saying that WM hasn't also caused harm, but that is a

different

> story.) I think it would be interesting for you to take a trip to Africa

> and try the teach the people to meditate, practice qi gong, and chew on

> wheat grass to cure their problems like AIDS and other real diseases. Not

> only is alterative not able to handle the immense need of health care, in

> many situations they just don't have the firepower. Antibiotics, for

> example, are unparalleled in alternative medicine. Yes they have been

> overused, but they work for many things, that alterative medicine really

> cannot touch.

>

> On the hand looking, I am trying to look at the world from a medical

> anthropological perspective and I see how beneficial WM is and can be in

> many situations - one's that alternative medicine (to date) has not proven

> to beat. It is real easy to say , " hey I know this guy who beat Stage IV

> Cancer by meditating and juicing, can't everyone do this??? " or " this

gal

> bought this hepatitis cure from the internet, and her hep c is now gone,

see

> there are alternatives one just has to look. " Granted one should always

> look for alternatives to disease, and personal stories are also inspiring,

> but that is a long way from actually working for the mass populous. IF

you

> don't see the problem which the above, please meditate on it for a couple

of

> days and let me know.

>

> Furthermore, WM is not the world's most dominant medicine for no reason at

> all.. But I am sure you have some conspiracy theory on why that is. My

> theory is that for one reason, WM went into third world countries with

force

> and made immediate changes (saved lives fast) where people were just

getting

> slaughtered. Yes there are problems with WM, but extracting the good is

IMO

> a mature thing to do, instead of the knee jerk resistance because of some

> personal belief or beef you have. This is nothing about who I am and who

> you are, it is about the world as a whole and looking at the big picture.

>

> Finally, A couple of weeks ago, I read at the bottom of someone's post, it

> might have been you, but it was some joke about doctors " what is the

> difference between doctors and GOD, - God doesn't think they are a

doctor. "

> This is so embarrassing and I thought about leaving the group, as you see

I

> didn't and especially because I have also probably said embarrassing

things

> also, but come on. But, such an attitude is quite disappointing. I don't

> know what happened to you (or them) but there are many great MEDICAL

doctors

> out there that really care about health and healing. WM has great tools,

you

> may never see this because of close-mindedness, and that is fine, but

> putting down the other camp will never help us heal the world, and

> especially does not help alterative medicine, it makes one look immature

and

> bitter. A better strategy, IMO, is to try to prove how good alterative

> medicine can be in certain scenarios and chip away at the block. Set up

> trials, gather research etc. etc.

>

> So I find it quite funny that you make this statement " and what is True

for

> you, is just something Different for me. " Yet you miss the whole essence

of

> the statement.You seem to be projecting your reality on everyone else.

But

> I do respect where you are coming from, and think that you are very

> fortunate to have found a way of life that works for you. But do you

think

> it is beneficial to discount another's system, and one that have proven to

> save lives, in exchange for your constructed paradigm?

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Jenkins,

 

> Look, for example, at chiropractic. Multiple studies, including

>large-scale reviews, have concluded that chiropractic management of

>low back pain is more effective and less dangerous than medical

>treatment for the same diagnoses.

 

In my own experiences, the spine has to be unobstructed in order to

achieve good health - that is smooth flow of qi throughout the body.

My qigong/tuina doctor considers it the root of all chronic ailments -

housing both inherited and environmentally induced obstructions - what

he calls " cold qi " . I am very interested in how doctors, who do not do

utilize direct spinal manipulation in their practice, " unblock " highly

fused areas in the spine. Do they refer their patients to those who do

for examination and assistance? I have found that self-exercise (e.g.,

qigong, yoga, other movement exercises) helps, but is not necessarily

sufficient in many situations.

 

For those who are interested in the Tuina approach, Brian has lent me

a course book called " Tom Tam Healing System " , which is available at:

 

http://www.easternhealingcenter.com/tomtam/

 

This book includes a description of the relationship of the vertebrae

to various chronic and acute problems. It maps very well to the system

that my doctor uses.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

I think this is an informed point of view. Medicine as a phenomenon is

extremely complex, and we have to be careful not to fall into any ruts.

I also have little interaction with WM in terms of my own family's

health care, Chinese medicine does quite well for us, thank you.

However, I also would use the existing health care system for the

crises you describe. I also don't think our profession can take on

the burden of centralized health care systems at this point, at least

in the west. There is a difference between the dedicated western

health care professionals you describe and the ravenous pharmaceutical

industry on the other hand.

 

 

On Aug 31, 2004, at 7:20 AM, Dermot O'Connor wrote:

 

> Surely there is a clear role for both Western Medicine and Oriental

> Medicine

> in our world and that the can co-exist to everyone's benefit? I have

> to say

> that many conspiracy theories about Western medicine really don't hold

> up

> and when you meet representatives of " Western " medicine - the nurses

> and

> doctors who work tirelessly in hospitals, how could you ever imagine

> that

> these people do not value the wellfare of their patients? The

> advances in

> medical science have been estounding over the last 50 years.

>

> Simplistically in my own context I see playing a

> powerful

> role in preventing illness arriving to my doorstep. However, if I'm

> ever

> unfortunate enough to have a severe heart attack or a stroke I won't be

> looking up acupuncturists in the Yellow Pages. Maybe use of Chinese

> Medicine will mean that I never need to make that phonecall.

>

> Dermot

>

> -

> " "

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:09 PM

> RE: Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

>

>

>>

>> Rich,

>>

>> There is a major difference between you and I here. You are viewing

>> the

>> world through the eyes of yourself, saying that 'it works for me why

> can't

>> it work for everyone.' But the problem here is there are people that

> aren't

>> like you, and will never be like you and your friends. It is IMO,

>> totally

>> egocentric. In your world you would rather die that let WM touch you,

> this

>> is a personal issue you have. But there are millions of people that

>> would

>> rather live and actually do live due to WM, and research / history/

>> anthropology supports that this would not have happened with

>> alterative

>> medicine (and wasn't). One can easily look back and see what local

> medicine

>> was doing when WM came in and saved the day for many diseases etc...

>> (BTW-

>> this is not saying that WM hasn't also caused harm, but that is a

> different

>> story.) I think it would be interesting for you to take a trip to

>> Africa

>> and try the teach the people to meditate, practice qi gong, and chew

>> on

>> wheat grass to cure their problems like AIDS and other real diseases.

>> Not

>> only is alterative not able to handle the immense need of health

>> care, in

>> many situations they just don't have the firepower. Antibiotics, for

>> example, are unparalleled in alternative medicine. Yes they have been

>> overused, but they work for many things, that alterative medicine

>> really

>> cannot touch.

>>

>> On the hand looking, I am trying to look at the world from a medical

>> anthropological perspective and I see how beneficial WM is and can be

>> in

>> many situations - one's that alternative medicine (to date) has not

>> proven

>> to beat. It is real easy to say , " hey I know this guy who beat

>> Stage IV

>> Cancer by meditating and juicing, can't everyone do this??? " or

>> " this

> gal

>> bought this hepatitis cure from the internet, and her hep c is now

>> gone,

> see

>> there are alternatives one just has to look. " Granted one should

>> always

>> look for alternatives to disease, and personal stories are also

>> inspiring,

>> but that is a long way from actually working for the mass populous.

>> IF

> you

>> don't see the problem which the above, please meditate on it for a

>> couple

> of

>> days and let me know.

>>

>> Furthermore, WM is not the world's most dominant medicine for no

>> reason at

>> all.. But I am sure you have some conspiracy theory on why that is. My

>> theory is that for one reason, WM went into third world countries with

> force

>> and made immediate changes (saved lives fast) where people were just

> getting

>> slaughtered. Yes there are problems with WM, but extracting the good

>> is

> IMO

>> a mature thing to do, instead of the knee jerk resistance because of

>> some

>> personal belief or beef you have. This is nothing about who I am and

>> who

>> you are, it is about the world as a whole and looking at the big

>> picture.

>>

>> Finally, A couple of weeks ago, I read at the bottom of someone's

>> post, it

>> might have been you, but it was some joke about doctors " what is the

>> difference between doctors and GOD, - God doesn't think they are a

> doctor. "

>> This is so embarrassing and I thought about leaving the group, as you

>> see

> I

>> didn't and especially because I have also probably said embarrassing

> things

>> also, but come on. But, such an attitude is quite disappointing. I

>> don't

>> know what happened to you (or them) but there are many great MEDICAL

> doctors

>> out there that really care about health and healing. WM has great

>> tools,

> you

>> may never see this because of close-mindedness, and that is fine, but

>> putting down the other camp will never help us heal the world, and

>> especially does not help alterative medicine, it makes one look

>> immature

> and

>> bitter. A better strategy, IMO, is to try to prove how good

>> alterative

>> medicine can be in certain scenarios and chip away at the block. Set

>> up

>> trials, gather research etc. etc.

>>

>> So I find it quite funny that you make this statement " and what is

>> True

> for

>> you, is just something Different for me. " Yet you miss the whole

>> essence

> of

>> the statement.You seem to be projecting your reality on everyone else.

> But

>> I do respect where you are coming from, and think that you are very

>> fortunate to have found a way of life that works for you. But do you

> think

>> it is beneficial to discount another's system, and one that have

>> proven to

>> save lives, in exchange for your constructed paradigm?

>>

>> -

>

>

>

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

> delivered.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

[Guest guest]

There are two issues that need to be distinguished here.

 

1) The vast majority of WM docs & nurses, I'm sure do value the

wellfare of their patients and say they want the best for them.

 

2) It seems that most of these people think that WM and only WM

offers that to them, and think in arrogance they have the only path

to wellness.

 

By and large, #2 is the problem, not #1.

 

A friend of mine just went to see a GP complaining of numbness and

tingling in her hands (she wouldn't listen to me, but then found out

I was right). The GP says - oh, you have carpal tunnell syndrome

(WITHOUT DOING A SINGLE TEST!!!!). Then she says oh by the way, I

have neck tension also. He responds in a condescending fashion, as

if to blame her for his incompetence in doing an adequate

intake " Well why didn't you say so, you probably have a mis-alignment

in your neck " . So she says, " how about if I see a chiropractor " . He

then proceeds to tell her that all chiro's are quacks and she should

never see one. But this same guy is perfectly willing to give her

muscle relaxers.

 

--brian

 

> I have to say

> that many conspiracy theories about Western medicine really don't

hold up

> and when you meet representatives of " Western " medicine - the

nurses and

> doctors who work tirelessly in hospitals, how could you ever

imagine that

> these people do not value the wellfare of their patients?

[Guest guest]

Brian,

 

I agree that its arrogant for ANYONE to think that they have the only path

to wellness, be they doctor, nurse, acupuncturist, qigong practitioner or

chiropractor. The majority of WM docs and nurses that I know are very

interested in Chinese medical insights, indeed many are clients of mine,

however when they deliver their service the obviiously have to operate

within the realms of their own professional skills.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

-

" briansbeard " <brian_s_beard

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 9:45 PM

Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

> There are two issues that need to be distinguished here.

>

> 1) The vast majority of WM docs & nurses, I'm sure do value the

> wellfare of their patients and say they want the best for them.

>

> 2) It seems that most of these people think that WM and only WM

> offers that to them, and think in arrogance they have the only path

> to wellness.

>

> By and large, #2 is the problem, not #1.

>

> A friend of mine just went to see a GP complaining of numbness and

> tingling in her hands (she wouldn't listen to me, but then found out

> I was right). The GP says - oh, you have carpal tunnell syndrome

> (WITHOUT DOING A SINGLE TEST!!!!). Then she says oh by the way, I

> have neck tension also. He responds in a condescending fashion, as

> if to blame her for his incompetence in doing an adequate

> intake " Well why didn't you say so, you probably have a mis-alignment

> in your neck " . So she says, " how about if I see a chiropractor " . He

> then proceeds to tell her that all chiro's are quacks and she should

> never see one. But this same guy is perfectly willing to give her

> muscle relaxers.

>

> --brian

>

> > I have to say

> > that many conspiracy theories about Western medicine really don't

> hold up

> > and when you meet representatives of " Western " medicine - the

> nurses and

> > doctors who work tirelessly in hospitals, how could you ever

> imagine that

> > these people do not value the wellfare of their patients?

[Guest guest]

<snip>

> 2) It seems that most of these people think that

> WM and only WM offers that to them, and think in

> arrogance they have the only path to wellness.

 

WM is a commercial insurance driven industry.

Yes, some integrative medical practices might be paid for by some

insurance companies but,

MDs have a hard enough time getting some of their WM suggestions

accepted by the insurance companies.

 

WM is also painfully aware of how much they pay for malpractice

insurance.

Dare they refer to a modality with unproven by Western scientific

process and should that modality fail, they too might be held

accountable in that inevitable suit.

 

Penel

[Guest guest]

Dermot,

 

You do not need to posit a conspiracy to explain what WM is doing, any more than

you need to a conspiracy theory to explain why a ball rolls downhill.

 

> The advances in medical science have been astounding over the last 50 years

 

Sorry. Not in my neck of the woods they haven't. Castration is still a dominant

form of treatment for prostate cancer. It was documented 60 years ago and the

treatment has not changed since then except that now designer drugs replace the

scalpel. This is in spite of the known fact that androgen does not cause

prostate cancer, and that indeed androgen replacement therapy can reverse it.

Nevertheless we still get designer antiandrogens coming on the market (Avodart /

dutasteride ) which reduce androgen, and we get 'names' in the business (i.e.

famous urologists / oncologists like Martin Gleave ) advertising these drugs to

make them more saleable to general practitioners and the public.

 

> However, if I'm ever unfortunate enough to have a severe heart attack or a

stroke

 

If that happens then my advice to you is to immediately take an aspirin ;-)

 

Sammy.

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:20 PM

Re: Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

Surely there is a clear role for both Western Medicine and Oriental Medicine

in our world and that the can co-exist to everyone's benefit? I have to say

that many conspiracy theories about Western medicine really don't hold up

and when you meet representatives of " Western " medicine - the nurses and

doctors who work tirelessly in hospitals, how could you ever imagine that

these people do not value the wellfare of their patients? The advances in

medical science have been estounding over the last 50 years.

 

Simplistically in my own context I see playing a powerful

role in preventing illness arriving to my doorstep. However, if I'm ever

unfortunate enough to have a severe heart attack or a stroke I won't be

looking up acupuncturists in the Yellow Pages. Maybe use of Chinese

Medicine will mean that I never need to make that phonecall.

 

Dermot

 

-

" "

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:09 PM

RE: Re: Qigong and the paradigm of integrative medicine

 

 

>

> Rich,

>

> There is a major difference between you and I here. You are viewing the

> world through the eyes of yourself, saying that 'it works for me why

can't

> it work for everyone.' But the problem here is there are people that

aren't

> like you, and will never be like you and your friends. It is IMO, totally

> egocentric. In your world you would rather die that let WM touch you,

this

> is a personal issue you have. But there are millions of people that would

> rather live and actually do live due to WM, and research / history/

> anthropology supports that this would not have happened with alterative

> medicine (and wasn't). One can easily look back and see what local

medicine

> was doing when WM came in and saved the day for many diseases etc... (BTW-

> this is not saying that WM hasn't also caused harm, but that is a

different

> story.) I think it would be interesting for you to take a trip to Africa

> and try the teach the people to meditate, practice qi gong, and chew on

> wheat grass to cure their problems like AIDS and other real diseases. Not

> only is alterative not able to handle the immense need of health care, in

> many situations they just don't have the firepower. Antibiotics, for

> example, are unparalleled in alternative medicine. Yes they have been

> overused, but they work for many things, that alterative medicine really

> cannot touch.

>

> On the hand looking, I am trying to look at the world from a medical

> anthropological perspective and I see how beneficial WM is and can be in

> many situations - one's that alternative medicine (to date) has not proven

> to beat. It is real easy to say , " hey I know this guy who beat Stage IV

> Cancer by meditating and juicing, can't everyone do this??? " or " this

gal

> bought this hepatitis cure from the internet, and her hep c is now gone,

see

> there are alternatives one just has to look. " Granted one should always

> look for alternatives to disease, and personal stories are also inspiring,

> but that is a long way from actually working for the mass populous. IF

you

> don't see the problem which the above, please meditate on it for a couple

of

> days and let me know.

>

> Furthermore, WM is not the world's most dominant medicine for no reason at

> all.. But I am sure you have some conspiracy theory on why that is. My

> theory is that for one reason, WM went into third world countries with

force

> and made immediate changes (saved lives fast) where people were just

getting

> slaughtered. Yes there are problems with WM, but extracting the good is

IMO

> a mature thing to do, instead of the knee jerk resistance because of some

> personal belief or beef you have. This is nothing about who I am and who

> you are, it is about the world as a whole and looking at the big picture.

>

> Finally, A couple of weeks ago, I read at the bottom of someone's post, it

> might have been you, but it was some joke about doctors " what is the

> difference between doctors and GOD, - God doesn't think they are a

doctor. "

> This is so embarrassing and I thought about leaving the group, as you see

I

> didn't and especially because I have also probably said embarrassing

things

> also, but come on. But, such an attitude is quite disappointing. I don't

> know what happened to you (or them) but there are many great MEDICAL

doctors

> out there that really care about health and healing. WM has great tools,

you

> may never see this because of close-mindedness, and that is fine, but

> putting down the other camp will never help us heal the world, and

> especially does not help alterative medicine, it makes one look immature

and

> bitter. A better strategy, IMO, is to try to prove how good alterative

> medicine can be in certain scenarios and chip away at the block. Set up

> trials, gather research etc. etc.

>

> So I find it quite funny that you make this statement " and what is True

for

> you, is just something Different for me. " Yet you miss the whole essence

of

> the statement.You seem to be projecting your reality on everyone else.

But

> I do respect where you are coming from, and think that you are very

> fortunate to have found a way of life that works for you. But do you

think

> it is beneficial to discount another's system, and one that have proven to

> save lives, in exchange for your constructed paradigm?

>

> -

[Guest guest]

> However, if I'm ever

> unfortunate enough to have a severe heart attack or a stroke I won't be

> looking up acupuncturists in the Yellow Pages.

 

Maybe an herbalist with a cup of strong chilli tea might do the trick

 

stephen

[Guest guest]

Operating within one's realm of professional service and being

cautious about recommendations due to liability are certainly

concerns.

 

But it would be nice if what was in the best interest of the patient

were what dominated the decision of what to them, and this will

surely improve with time as more awareness takes place. It seems to

me that for this coexistence that was mentioned earlier in this

thread to take place MD's should be referring to acupuncturists some

of the time as well as alternative health care practitioners

referring to them. If the patient is not in any immediate danger,

then trying an alternative when MD's know they have limited results

should be suggested, especially for areas that have such proven

results.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Brian & Dermot,

 

Dermot wrote:

> Brian, I agree that its arrogant for ANYONE to think that they

> have the only path to wellness, be they doctor, nurse,

> acupuncturist, qigong practitioner or chiropractor. Most WM docs

> and nurses that I know are very interested in Chinese medical

> insights, indeed many are clients of mine. However, when they

> deliver their servicey they obviiously must operate within the

> realms of their own professional skills. Kind regards, Dermot

 

Dermot, I agree 100%. No matter how much we think that we

know, we actually know very little of the HUGE knowledge-base

underpinning medicine and healing.

 

Chinese Proverb: What can frog in well know about outside world?

See: http://users.compaqnet.be/cn111132/chuang-tzu/17.htm

 

[For those interested, the Complete Works of Chuang Tzu are

online at: http://users.compaqnet.be/cn111132/chuang-tzu/ [great

and easy reading!]

 

A more recent essay on the Frog topic says: " The analogy has

been given of Dr. Frog. A frog often lives in a well. The well is one

meter wide, it is in the middle of a field and above the well is a tree

and Dr. Frog has spent his whole life in that well. He has no

experience beyond that one meter diameter well. But he has seen

so much through the hole in the top of his well. Sometimes he

sees nice blue sky and trees with green leaves, sometimes he

sees clouds in the sky, sometimes rain comes through the top of

his well, sometimes the leaves from the tree fall into his well. So

Dr. Frog has experienced many things, he's seen so much. As a

result of all of his observation he has been able to come up with his

own particular universal view, " The universe according to Dr. Frog. "

He doesn't know there is any more than he has seen. He has only

seen what is visible through the hole in the top of his well, so he

thinks that's all there is, he thinks that's the universe. He has

developed so much philosophy, so many theories to describe what

is happening in his universe. But what can he see? So what is the

value of his conclusions? His conclusions are useless. The

difficulty is if somebody comes from outside to tell him about the

actual universe he won't be able to understand it because it's

outside the scope of his world. "

 

For more detail see: http://krishna.org/sudarsana/a031.html

It has most fascinating insights into Ayurveda and into the

problems of WM and its blindness to other modes of healing.

 

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil, and All,

 

>A more recent essay on the Frog topic says: " The analogy has

>been given of Dr. Frog. A frog often lives in a well. The well is one

>meter wide, it is in the middle of a field and above the well is a tree

>and Dr. Frog has spent his whole life in that well.

 

There were 2 Chinese idioms, (literary quotation) pronounced as " Jing (well) di

(bottom) zhi (...of) wa (frog) " and " zuo(sit) Jing(well) guan (look at, or

watch) tian (sky) " .

 

" Jing(well)di (bottom) zhi (...of) wa (frog) " means a person with a very

limited outlook

 

" zuo(sit) Jing(well) guan (look at, or watch) tian (sky) means " have a very

narrow view "

 

Regards

 

Xu