Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Z'ev, Doc, Robert and Ming, I believe we must be mindful of the ethical quandary that occurs when we blame the patient's behavior for a clinical failure. To hold such a position is to be powerless as the physician. Why is it that one physician fails at influencing a patient to change while another succeeds? In my estimation it is a failure in leadership....we failed to lead the patient to the correct behavior. This might be because our treatment was focused on treating symptoms instead of the issues that Robert cites " from a Buddhist perspective, people are sick due to karma and have poisons of greed, anger, and stupidity and a false sense of self. " Or, from an ayurvedic perspective, suffering is related to the four pillars of life that include right livelihood, right relationship, material sustenance and spiritual development. Or, disease can be examined from the perspective of the Daoist movement, the Way of Great Peace originating in the late Han Dynasty. However, that movement shunned any medical interventions rather, confession of sins was the primary intervention. From the Sanguo zhi (Record of the Three Kingdoms) [Taoist Identity, History, Lineage, and Ritual; Kohn and Roth; University of Hawaii Press]: " In the Way of Great Peace, the leader wrote talismans and wove spells, holding on to a bamboo staff of nine sections. He told the sick people to knock their heads to the ground and remember their sins, then give them a talisman, burned and dissolved in water, to drink. Those who got gradually better and were healed by this treatment were called good believers in the Dao. Those who showed no improvement were considered faithless. " This approach presents from my perspective a very similar ethical quandary as the practice of blaming patient behavior for clinical failure. This time, failure is attributed to faith regardless of the cause. To me the question remains as to the physician's ability to understand the nature of the patient's condition and the causes of behavior. Then through love, trust and compassion the physician builds a bridge of increased capacity for the patient to change and heal. Best - Will > You miss the entire point of the RHETORICAL question. > This was a question posed by my GrandFather (a practitioner of over 80 years > at the time of his death). It was addressed to an arrogant MD but could as > well have been addressed to members of the TCM profession. Too often people > claim a superiority for their type of medicine. (ie Alopathic medicine is > useless and a fraud... TCM is the only worthwhile form of medicine ...) > OK -asked my Zaide- if your system of medicine is so great and superior why > has it not cured all of humankind? > and if your answer is one pointed at the patients role in their own healing > then why have you not educated them, after all your system is so > superior.... > The Rombom said it is not possible for a succesful doctor to enter heaven. > Why one asks. A doctor who has succesfuly cured so much pain and suffering > should be assured heaven. > But a doctor who is succesful begins to forget that all of our skills and > arts and knowledge and we ourselves are no more than tools in the hands of G-d. > The healing does not come from us it comes from the universal source (i > choose to call Ha Shem or G-d) > > Doc > > " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer wrote: > Then there is stress which can compromise one's immune system, not getting > enough sleep for a good period of time, not dressing more warmly when the > weather gets cold, and my personal favorite: People walking around with wet hair > and complaining of headaches. > > The list is endless.............................................. > > Chu <chusauli wrote: > From the Buddhist perspective, people are sick due to karma and have the > poisons of greed, anger, and stupity and a false sense of self. > > Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD > chusauli > > See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > > > >WMorris116 > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > > why are there still sick people? > >Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:36:50 EDT > > > >Hi Z'ev... > > > >I had Tiande Yang write a formula for me that was remarkably helpful > >and I listened in as one of our senior supervisors who follow Dr Yang > >remarked on her appreciation for the blessing of his teaching. After she > >left, he > >said to me " my suffering is the patient who doesn't respond to my > >treatments. " > > > >Will > William R. Morris, LAc, OMD, MSEd Dean of Educational Advancement Emperor's College of Oriental Medicine 310-453-8300 phone 310-829-3838 fax will http://emperors.edu/doctoral/doc_mission.html This message is a PRIVATE communication. This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy, or use it, and do not disclose it to others. Please notify the sender of the delivery error by replying to this message with the word delete in the subject column, and then delete it and any attachments from your system. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 (WILL) Z'ev, Doc, Robert and Ming, I believe we must be mindful of the ethical quandary that occurs when we blame the patient's behavior for a clinical failure. To hold such a position is to be powerless as the physician. (MING) The scenario that I have provided is related to ones in which the acupuncturist has provided proper diagnosis and treatment, provided all available information relating to the patient’s illness and advised the patient’s of all of the do’s and don’t’s to get him/her on track of healing and recovery. So, when you say “blame the patient's behavior for a clinical failure”, were you speaking specifically about situations in which acupuncturists failed to provide proper diagnosis and treatment and in his/her frustration blame the patient? If it is, then this would be an entirely different scenario from what I have described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Ming, IMO My bottom line is that it is the duty of the practitioner to educate the patient. I consider the failure to do this the fault/failure of the practitioner. I do not expect to be able to educate or help everyone, but my part of the responsibilty is in no way mitigated by the patients failure to do their part. If the patient does not learn i see it as my responsibilty. >(MING) The scenario that I have provided is<SNIP> provided all available information relating to the patient’s illness and advised the patient’s of all of the do’s and don’t’s to get him/her on track of healing and recovery. < WE must always learn new ways to transmit the information. WE must take the responsibilty for the patient not understanding the need to follow our recomendations. I understand your point but disagree. Doc Doc " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer wrote: (WILL) Z'ev, Doc, Robert and Ming, I believe we must be mindful of the ethical quandary that occurs when we blame the patient's behavior for a clinical failure. To hold such a position is to be powerless as the physician. Mail is new and improved - Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 Doc wrote: Ming, IMO My bottom line is that it is the duty of the practitioner to educate the patient. I consider the failure to do this the fault/failure of the practitioner. I do not expect to be able to educate or help everyone, but my part of the responsibilty is in no way mitigated by the patients failure to do their part. If the patient does not learn i see it as my responsibilty. > > To educate is indeed part of healing, but the question remains, is one altogether himself or herself enough to offer guidance? The situation places the healer in a position of power, and if this aspect of well-being is not self assessed, prospects for horrendous harm arrive. If the healer is unstable in emotions, is irritable, brooding, self righteous, vicious, brutal or cruel, and does not know this, the patient does not stand a chance of walking away undamaged, physically and emotionally, with more problems than what he or she came in with. And he or she had to pay for the privilege. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Doc " <Doc <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:23 AM Re: why are there still sick people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 (Doc) IMO My bottom line is that it is the duty of the practitioner to educate the patient. (Ming) I agree with you fully on this. (Doc) I consider the failure to do this the fault/failure of the practitioner. I do not expect to be able to educate or help everyone, but my part of the responsibilty is in no way mitigated by the patients failure to do their part. If the patient does not learn i see it as my responsibilty. (Ming) I admire your sense of responsibility, and it is one that we all share as conscientious professionals. However, you seem to forget one thing. A patient is a human being. That means each patient has an independent mind of their own and is capable of thinking for himself/herself and making his/her own choice, informed or not, for himself/herself. Given that, I believe the responsibility for the failure of a patient to heed to the physician's good words is shared by both the physician and the patient. As such, the success of a patient's full-recovery is also shared between the physician and the patient, partly because the patient listened and followed the physician's good words of wisdom. You are also assuming that all patients will make the correct choice when given the appropriate information. In the real world, this simply does not happen " all of the time " , because there is an inherent " rebel streak " embedded in each human being. As we all know, some express it more than others. Some people just don't like to be told to do things. These are challenges, and I agree with you that we must always learn new ways to transmit the information and overcome those challenges, but it is simply unrealistic to expect physicians to have total control over every single variable involved in the success of treating a patient. It takes two to be successful. (Doc) WE must take the responsibilty for the patient not understanding the need to follow our recomendations. (Ming) We share this responsibility with the patient, but I strongly disagree with the idea that the physician solely bears all of the responsibility. New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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