RE: Emotions

[Guest guest]

, " " <

@h...> wrote:

> , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

> wrote:

> > Also, if someone is " suffering " grief in the pathological sense,

> then

> > that alone is a LU symptom.

>

> Can you state a source on this? Yes classically lungs relate to

> lungs, fear to the kidney yada yada, but can we consider these to be

> symptoms?

 

some of these are listed as chief complaints in sionneau: fear, fright,

irascibility, joy

 

however frequent sorrow, defined as tendency to low spirits and grieving,

include qi, yin and blood vacuity plus liver fire as causes

 

And furthermore symptoms that `alone' point to organ

> vacuity.

 

both excess and vacuity patterns are listed for all these emotions, however

only irascibility appears a keynote symptom of its associated organ - the liver

- when diagnosing complaints other than emotional. In other words, joy is a

chief complaint, but not used to diagnose other heart patterns in sionneau

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> My understanding is that you MUST have other lung signs to dx a lung

> issue. I am with Alon on this one. To comment on below, you never

> dx spleen not holding the blood without other spleen signs, at least

> I don't… How would you do this?? So the question should be this, If

 

There may very well be a difference between what is going on with a

system, such as the LU, and one's own ability to diagnose.

 

In other words, any system may possibly be faulty in just one way. If

your system of diagnosis requires more signs or symptoms in order to

state a diagnosis and initiate a responsible treatment, this still

does not detract from the reality of the one symptom and it's cause.

 

I am not saying that I would necessarily diagnose anything based on

just one symptom, but it should be clear that the symptom still has a

cause, even if no other symptoms exist.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> are always taken in context. Second, It is my understanding that

> worry, fear, grief etc, are etiologies not necessarily symptoms.

 

I agree that it is a common idea that they are etiologies, but I have

read many references of them as symtoms.

 

This is from the 1st book I looked in -

page 7 of the Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxibustion

(English translation):

 

" The merger of essence and qi in the spleen leads to hunger "

" The merger of essence and qi in the lung leads to sorrow "

" The merger of essence and qi in the kidney leads to apprehension "

 

This classic source sources the Su Wen and the Jiu Juan for all 3 of

those comments. There are many more references to sorrow in the

SCofA & M, some of which relate it as a symtom caused by other things in

the body, including insufficiencies of either spirit or blood, things

other than the LU.

 

I am sure I could open other books and give more information, but I am

also sure that you probably have the same books and could easily look

for yourself.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > are always taken in context. Second, It is my understanding that

> > worry, fear, grief etc, are etiologies not necessarily symptoms.

>

> I agree that it is a common idea that they are etiologies, but I

have

> read many references of them as symtoms.

>

> This is from the 1st book I looked in -

> page 7 of the Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxibustion

> (English translation):

>

> " The merger of essence and qi in the spleen leads to hunger "

> " The merger of essence and qi in the lung leads to sorrow "

> " The merger of essence and qi in the kidney leads to apprehension "

>

> This classic source sources the Su Wen and the Jiu Juan for all 3

of

> those comments.

 

This is a given... Meaning we know that the suwen etc say these

basic correlations, but is this reality and how much of this is true

in modern texts. Can you or others show where under a lung pattern

grief/ sorrow is listed as a symptom (in modern or pre-mordern

texts)? I do not know what you refer to below so if you could

expand that would be great. Please if you have time, open the other

books, because I have yet to find such references... I think this

whole discussion comes back to your statement (and many others) that

if one has sorrow/ grief than that is definitely a lung indicator.

Also I am making a distinction between a Chief complaint and a

symptom to defining a pattern.

 

-

 

There are many more references to sorrow in the

> SCofA & M, some of which relate it as a symtom caused by other

things in

> the body, including insufficiencies of either spirit or blood,

things

> other than the LU.

>

> I am sure I could open other books and give more information, but

I am

> also sure that you probably have the same books and could easily

look

> for yourself.

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> , " " <

> @h...> wrote:

> > , " bcataiji "

<bcaom@c...>

> > wrote:

> > > Also, if someone is " suffering " grief in the pathological

sense,

> > then

> > > that alone is a LU symptom.

> >

> > Can you state a source on this? Yes classically lungs relate to

> > lungs, fear to the kidney yada yada, but can we consider these to

be

> > symptoms?

>

> some of these are listed as chief complaints in sionneau: fear,

fright,

> irascibility, joy

>

> however frequent sorrow, defined as tendency to low spirits and

grieving,

> include qi, yin and blood vacuity plus liver fire as causes

>

 

It seems to me that particular body constitutions and varying

conditions of contextual experience would obviously always play a

role in determining the zang-fu involved.

For example, the idea of someone losing their partner, feeling

upset and this leading to liver depression(unfufilled desires) and

the frustration of the loss transforming into anger(liver fire) is

quite reasonable. The liver fire scorches the lungs, and so the

primary focus of treatment is too resolve depression and clear heat.

Sionneau uses a modified version of Si Ni san adding herbs like zhi

zi and huang qin to clear depressive heat, drain fire and clear the

lungs while also adding herbs like jie geng and xing ren to open and

diffuse the lungs which are crushed by liver depression stagnating in

the chest.

He amounts grief and crying for no particular reason and excess

sentimentality to yin-blood vacuity of the viscera and prescribes Gan

mai da zao tang with herbs like bai he, suan zao ren, mai dong, tian

dong etc..

In this scenario, the liver depression isn't predominant. The

grief is there but without any particular reason and so there is

perhaps no particular object of desire out of reach. Here there is a

need for construction and nourishment.

Perhaps in philosophy, we can amount grief to the lungs, but in the

clinic it seems much more neccesary to find a confluence of symptoms,

determining the predominant disharmony.

I think though in the west at least pure vacuity cases of grief

such as heart and lung qi vacuity are rarely seen without

accompanying liver depression. Most people suffering in grief wish

for a much different time and place to hang their weary heads.

matt

[Guest guest]

both excess and vacuity patterns are listed for all these emotions, however

only irascibility appears a keynote symptom of its associated organ - the liver

- when diagnosing complaints other than emotional. In other words, joy is a

chief complaint, but not used to diagnose other heart patterns in sionneau

 

>>>>>As far as being both Excess and Deficiency PU also makes the point that it

may be more of theory imposed on reality for the sake of systematic theory

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am not saying that I would necessarily diagnose anything based on

just one symptom, but it should be clear that the symptom still has a

cause, even if no other symptoms exist.

 

Brian C. Allen

 

>>>>And this is a major question. How do we start to evaluate our system of

beliefs on these questions?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am sure I could open other books and give more information, but I am

also sure that you probably have the same books and could easily look

for yourself.

 

Brian C. Allen

>>>>Brian you can also find different emotional attribution to the same

mechanism with the same classics

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> books, because I have yet to find such references... I think this

> whole discussion comes back to your statement (and many others) that

> if one has sorrow/ grief than that is definitely a lung indicator.

> Also I am making a distinction between a Chief complaint and a

> symptom to defining a pattern.

 

The original post commented that if their is grief, he does not see

any more LU symptoms than anything else. Given my basic belief in

this aspect of the classics, I stated that there is at least that one

LU symptom - the grief.

 

However, the key to my post was what I wrote later when I posed the

question as to whether or not treating the LU directly or indirectly

could help pathological grief.

 

This question, I think, is the key to the discussion. If such a

treatment were to work, not just once, but in many cases, over time,

then it might be an indication that the classics were on to something.

If the treatments do not work, then maybe you are corrected about

other motivations for the coorespondances.

 

I tried to switch the focus to something more tangible than

speculation by providing a simple method by which to test the

classical notion.

 

 

> There are many more references to sorrow in the

> > SCofA & M, some of which relate it as a symtom caused by other

> things in

> > the body, including insufficiencies of either spirit or blood,

> things

> > other than the LU.

 

I'd have to re-open the book to give you the page #'s. Sorrow is in

the index of the book, and I just checked out some of the pages.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > books, because I have yet to find such references... I think

this

> > whole discussion comes back to your statement (and many others)

that

> > if one has sorrow/ grief than that is definitely a lung

indicator.

> > Also I am making a distinction between a Chief complaint and a

> > symptom to defining a pattern.

>

> The original post commented that if their is grief, he does not see

> any more LU symptoms than anything else. Given my basic belief in

> this aspect of the classics, I stated that there is at least that

one

> LU symptom - the grief.

 

Bingo! I am unclear about the meaning of your above statement, but

how can we say grief is a " Lung symptom " …? I do not consider it a

Lung symptom. IT may relate to the lung and it may not. Without

other signs it is not a lung symptom. I think this is what Todd was

getting at with his original inquiry, and where I am going with

this. Show us where it says this. It has been pointed out that

classically and in modern times grief is associated with other

organs besides the lung.

Here is a quote from you (Brian) ,

" Also, if someone is " suffering " grief in the pathological sense,

then that alone is a LU symptom. "

This is what I am questioning.

Am I missing something?

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

>

> However, the key to my post was what I wrote later when I posed the

> question as to whether or not treating the LU directly or

indirectly

> could help pathological grief.

 

This is the key… So when a test is done and you (or others) can

conclude that treating the Lung (that has no other lung pathology)

enables one to process grief better then let me know. But this kind

of study is almost impossible. For example, how do we know that a

person treated processed the grief any faster or smoothly than

without treatment… I think it would be one of the harder less

tangible studies one could do in the realm of CM.

 

>

> This question, I think, is the key to the discussion. If such a

> treatment were to work, not just once, but in many cases, over

time,

> then it might be an indication that the classics were on to

something.

 

Yes the classics were on to things, but they we also off on many

things.

>

> I tried to switch the focus to something more tangible than

> speculation by providing a simple method by which to test the

> classical notion.

 

This is not simple…

 

>

>

> > There are many more references to sorrow in the

> > > SCofA & M, some of which relate it as a symtom caused by other

> > things in

> > > the body, including insufficiencies of either spirit or blood,

> > things

> > > other than the LU.

>

> I'd have to re-open the book to give you the page #'s. Sorrow is

in

> the index of the book, and I just checked out some of the pages.

>

 

What book are you referring to? And please show us some citations.

Thanx,

 

-

[Guest guest]

 

 

Which Sionneau book are you referring to?

 

Andrea Beth

 

< wrote:

, " " <

@h...> wrote:

> , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

> wrote:

> > Also, if someone is " suffering " grief in the pathological sense,

> then

> > that alone is a LU symptom.

>

> Can you state a source on this? Yes classically lungs relate to

> lungs, fear to the kidney yada yada, but can we consider these to be

> symptoms?

 

some of these are listed as chief complaints in sionneau: fear, fright,

irascibility, joy

 

however frequent sorrow, defined as tendency to low spirits and grieving,

include qi, yin and blood vacuity plus liver fire as causes

 

And furthermore symptoms that `alone' point to organ

> vacuity.

 

both excess and vacuity patterns are listed for all these emotions, however

only irascibility appears a keynote symptom of its associated organ - the liver

- when diagnosing complaints other than emotional. In other words, joy is a

chief complaint, but not used to diagnose other heart patterns in sionneau

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Brian,

 

What is the SC of A & M you refer to?

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

bcataiji <bcaom wrote:

 

> There are many more references to sorrow in the

> > SCofA & M, some of which relate it as a symtom caused by other

> things in

> > the body, including insufficiencies of either spirit or blood,

> things

> > other than the LU.

 

I'd have to re-open the book to give you the page #'s. Sorrow is in

the index of the book, and I just checked out some of the pages.

 

Brian C. Allen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> " Also, if someone is " suffering " grief in the pathological sense,

> then that alone is a LU symptom. "

> This is what I am questioning.

> Am I missing something?

 

While it is fine to question, it is not important enough to me to

answer because it is still speculation.

 

Again, this is why I preposed that it be tested.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> What book are you referring to? And please show us some citations.

> Thanx,

 

I was referring solely to the Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and

Moxibustion (SCofA & M). I gave you the initial site of page 7. Like I

said, the index shows many references to sorrow, which is where I got

the bit about sorrow being caused by insufficiencies of either spirit

or blood. So, there is no need to remind me that sorrow is attributed

to things other than the LU because I have already stated it,

correcting myself. If you do not have the book, me giving you the

page #'s will be of no use. If you do have the book, check out the index.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Seems to me we have a chicken and egg problem here. Is grief a symptom of lung

pathology or does grief damage the lungs? On the

one hand, it is a symptom (zheng); on the other it is a disease cause (bing

yin). I think the Chinese literature is quite clear about grief

being a disease cause. However, I'm not so sure about the classical literature

in terms of grief being a symptom. This may be an

overly simplistic and doctrinaire use of five phase theory.

 

As a disease cause, unambiguous and authoritative statements of fact in CM say

that grief scatters (san) the qi, and scattering is

akin to dispersing (xiao) and draining (xie). As such, grief scatters of drains

the lung qi (or the ancestral/gathered qi in the chest, i.e.,

the heart and lung qi). Further, other well known statements of fact in CM say

that it is specifically " great " (da) grief that damages the

lungs. This is commonly interpreted as either excessive in amount grief or

prolonged in duration grief.

 

As someone who once experienced three months of continuous, great, weeping,

wailing, head-pounding grief, I would agree that great

grief does damage the heart-lung qi. Twenty-some years later, I still have daily

heart palpitations that were initiated by this extreme

grief and which have failed to respond to anything any Chinese or Western doctor

has tried.

 

In any case, for citations for the above statements of fact, see my and James

Lake's Chinese Medical Psychiatry.

 

BTW, non-Chinese readers should be aware that other ancient Chinese medical

texts do say that several of the five affects damage

different viscera than those found in the Nei Jing. My point being that these

correspondences are only one opinion and that different

opinions are attributed to other extremely credible and authoritative Chinese

sources.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Who is the author of this book? This is the first I've heard of it.

 

Andrea Beth

 

bcataiji <bcaom wrote:

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> What book are you referring to? And please show us some citations.

> Thanx,

 

I was referring solely to the Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and

Moxibustion (SCofA & M). I gave you the initial site of page 7. Like I

said, the index shows many references to sorrow, which is where I got

the bit about sorrow being caused by insufficiencies of either spirit

or blood. So, there is no need to remind me that sorrow is attributed

to things other than the LU because I have already stated it,

correcting myself. If you do not have the book, me giving you the

page #'s will be of no use. If you do have the book, check out the index.

 

Brian C. Allen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

,

<> wrote:

> Brian,

>

> What is the SC of A & M you refer to?

 

 

I'm sorry. I spelled out Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and

Moxibustion earlier in that same post, so later I shortened it to SCofA & M.

 

Again, I am sorry that it was not clear, as others were also confused.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> As a disease cause, unambiguous and authoritative statements of fact

in CM say that grief scatters (san) the qi, and scattering is

> akin to dispersing (xiao) and draining (xie). As such, grief

scatters of drains the lung qi (or the ancestral/gathered qi in the

chest, i.e.,

> the heart and lung qi). Further, other well known statements of fact

in CM say that it is specifically " great " (da) grief that damages the

> lungs. This is commonly interpreted as either excessive in amount

grief or prolonged in duration grief.

 

I am glad you stepped in here because it made the following pop into

my head.

 

If great grief damages the LU, then great grief can be considered a

" sign " (rather than symptom) of LU pathology.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

,

<> wrote:

> Who is the author of this book? This is the first I've heard of it.

>

 

It is a great 700 page book. It was a Jin Dynasty (265-420 CE) text.

It gives much information on disease cause, diagnosis, and treatment

principles. It also details the classical point locations, needle

depth and retention duration, moxa perscriptions, point combinations, etc.

 

The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxibustion

by Huang-fu Mi

A Translation of the Jia Yi Jing by Yang Shou-zhong and Charles Chace

published by Blue Poppy Press

ISBN 0-936185-29-5

 

I apologize in advance for this straying from the intent of the CHA.

I just want to provide this information as requested.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Can you state a source on this? Yes classically lungs relate to

> lungs, fear to the kidney yada yada, but can we consider these to

be symptoms? And furthermore symptoms that `alone' point to organ

> vacuity. I would think not. Firstly I do not believe any symptom,

> in and of it self, guarantees primary organ involvement. >>>

 

 

Jason:

 

You are correct in saying that an emotion doesn't necessarily point

to an " organ vacuity " . In the pulses, each are found at their own,

seperate depths using the Nan Jing pulse method. Somatasization of

an emotion may occur and can effect an organ in time---long or short-

term. Two examples, fear may make the patient lose control over

their bowels or bladder; and we often find worry or neediness that

started in childhood still unconsciously affecting the spleen when

an adult.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > " Also, if someone is " suffering " grief in the pathological

sense,

> > then that alone is a LU symptom. "

> > This is what I am questioning.

> > Am I missing something?

>

> While it is fine to question, it is not important enough to me to

> answer because it is still speculation.

>

> Again, this is why I preposed that it be tested.

>

> Brian C. Allen

 

Brian, sorry maybe I got confused here. So you are saying that your

comment about grief being 'alone a lung symptom' was speculation,

therefore you have no desire in pursuing the truth in this unless we

test it??? Therefore, I was just questioning your speculation,

which you later retracted to be a false statement, therefore not

important enough to answer????? Confused?

 

So do we all agree that grief is NOT alone equivalent to a lung

symptom, therefore back to Todd's original question, it is not a

keynote symptom. Agreed?

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " wrote:

> There may very well be a difference between what is going on with a

> system, such as the LU, and one's own ability to diagnose.

>

> In other words, any system may possibly be faulty in just one way.

If your system of diagnosis requires more signs or symptoms in order

to state a diagnosis and initiate a responsible treatment, this

still does not detract from the reality of the one symptom and it's

cause.

>

> I am not saying that I would necessarily diagnose anything based on

> just one symptom, but it should be clear that the symptom still

has a cause, even if no other symptoms exist. >>>

 

 

Brian:

 

You make a very good point, here. One that I find in a patient's

pulses. The one symptom or emotion may be transient and become

resolved in time by the patient alone.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > What book are you referring to? And please show us some

citations.

> > Thanx,

>

> I was referring solely to the Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and

> Moxibustion (SCofA & M). I gave you the initial site of page 7.

Like I

> said, the index shows many references to sorrow, which is where I

got

> the bit about sorrow being caused by insufficiencies of either

spirit

> or blood. So, there is no need to remind me that sorrow is

attributed

> to things other than the LU because I have already stated it,

> correcting myself. If you do not have the book, me giving you the

> page #'s will be of no use. If you do have the book, check out

the index.

>

> Brian C. Allen

 

Yes I do have the SCofA & M and it, from my understanding, is just

sourced from the `ming tang' and mainly the 'neijing.' It does

little to further discussion of this matter. Primarily because we

know that classically things are too murky on this topic. There are

contradictions left and right. So we really need citations from

modern or pre-modern sources if there is going to be any proof of

the matter, therefore warranting even that we should test such a

hypothesis. So the way I see it, 'grief equaling a lung symptom' is

only a hypothesis at the current moment.

Bob, do you find grief listed as a symptom along with SOB, cough

etc?? This seems to me should be the question of the moment…

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> So do we all agree that grief is NOT alone equivalent to a lung

> symptom, therefore back to Todd's original question, it is not a

> keynote symptom. Agreed?

>

> -

 

 

Yes, I agree; however, I am still interested in the idea of treating

the LU in cases of pathological grief.

 

Does anyone here have personal experience in this? Are there case

studies in books?

 

Also, my comment in question was not speculation, grief CAN be a LU

symptom (I already gave one reference), however, as I later added, I

realize that grief can come from elsewhere. As Bob Flaws pointed out,

it is a statement of fact that great grief damages the LU, so this

kind of grief can be considered a sign, rather than a symptom.

Furthermore, if grief has damaged the LU, and no other LU symptoms can

be found, then what functioning aspect of the LU has been damaged? I

do not know; this would be speculation and is along the lines at what

I was trying to address earlier but decided that it was just an

exercise in spinning one's wheels.

 

Brian C. Allen