Guest guest Posted September 17, 2002 Report Share Posted September 17, 2002 Which is why I say I am a Christian. Period. Not Catholic, not Baptist, not Methodist. Not anything else. I'm a Christian. It's a way of life. A shaken way of life after 9/11, but still strong. Meet them with peace. Dale Sending you great vibes from NYC for your trip to the Apache stomping grounds - Butch Owen Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:03 AM OT: Islam and Moslem Hey Lynette, > Hey Butch - > In one of your past posts you seemed to make a distinction between > Muslim & Islamic. Can you explain this for me? Yes .. maybe .. I hope so. ;-p Its an extremely subtle difference to a Westerner or to one who writes dictionaries .. but not to one who lives with or around the difference. I'll try to explain without rambling but it might not be possible because it is not something that one can write in 100 words or less and allow to stand alone and with meaning. Islam is one of the three monotheistic religions and the religion of the Moslems. If taken in a fundamentalist manner, it becomes a WAY of life and one totally submits themself to God and the teachings of the Koran as revealed through Mohammed (Turkish spelling .. Arabs prefer to write it as Muhammad) the Prophet of Allah (God). Islam came along around 600 years after the birth of Christ and it recognizes and holds in great esteem all of the Holy personages worshiped by Christians .. with one exception .. Mohammed fulfilled the prophacies and is the LAST Prophet; Jesus Christ was just a great Prophet .. and not the Son of God. If not taken in such a fundamentalist manner, it becomes a PART of life rather than a WAY of life. All followers of Islam are Moslems but all Moslems are not Islamists or have not been Islamized. A true follower of Islam will, during the period of fasting, work hard to ensure they don't swallow their own saliva .. they would consider it a sin and a violation of the fasting to do so. Touching pork would also be considered a dreaded sin .. as would drinking alcohol. In the Old Testament, alcohol was forbidden .. but in the New Testament, folks are drinking wine are every turn. As I was raised a Baptist, my Sunday School teachers tried to rationalize that with all kinds of smoke and mirrors .. the water was bad and really all they were drinking was grape juice and the like .. but we know what they were drinking. Can we say that a Baptist or Methodist is a better or worse Christian than a Mennonite? I don't think so .. but the Mennonite is not likely to allow wine to pass his lips .. he is a fundamentalist. The Mennonite is not, however, a radical fundamentalist .. I think it would be danged hard to find one that is and I was raised in a county where a third of the population was Mennonite. Not the same for the fundamentalist Islamic .. he can easily become a radical and accept the concept of Jehad .. or Holy War. Islamism and Islamic fundamentalism are serious crimes in Turkey - have been for over 78 years since one of the most advant garde individuals of last century formed the secular Republic from the ashes of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was a man for all times. Its not easy to imagine turning the seat of Islam into a secular, democratic, western minded Republic. Woman had equal rights (in his time) long before they had to fight for them in the USA. Check this site .. click on the upper left side when you get there .. where it says A Brief Intro to Mustafa Kemal .. and then when it opens, check the links on the left hand side. http://www.ataturk.com/ The difference between Islamic or Islamism and being a devout Moslem is Sorta like the difference twixt a Suth'ran Fried Baptist preacher giving out Kool-Aid at a Sunday Pot Luck supper and that served by Reverend Jim Jones, in 1978, to 914 so-called Christian Fundamentalist followers at the People's Temple in Guyana. I hope my opinions do not upset or hurt the feelings of anyone on this list. If they do, I will apologize for the hurt .. but I will not back off the opinions I've stated here. I've spent more than half my life living/working in Moslem countries .. some places longer than others. I've felt comfortable in Egypt, Oman, Jordan, Somalia, and Turkey and have visited others like Tunisia, Morocco, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq. I was married to a western thinking Turkish lady for 21 + years .. her family was generally educated in England and the USA .. and she is now in the US while I'm in Turkey .. gotta keep at least one ocean betwixt us we do. ;-p But I can say that she was never a true Moslem as she had not been in a mosque until I took her into the Grand Mosque in Istanbul when she was 25 years old .. and now she's a Protestant. > Namaste - Lynette of Terralyn in Philadelphia, PA Ask a simple question and get a long answer. But not as long as I could give and maybe not as long as I'd like to give. One of these days when I have more time, I'll repost some of the many articles I've written on Turkey .. the only secular, democratic, western Moslem country in the world .. and the only one where you will find mosques, churches, temples and synogogues side by side on the streets .. As Rome is the seat of the Vatican, the Holy Church, Istanbul is STILL TODAY the seat of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch and the Armenian Patriarch. Turkey is the site of the world's first Christian Church as well as the Seven Churches of the Revelation. I've visited all the ancient sites and have them on video - with the appropriate background music and narration. It's also the stomping grounds of Saint Nicolas - the modern-day Santa. I'll tell y'all a bit more some day .. there is much to tell. :-p Y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2002 Report Share Posted September 18, 2002 Hey Lynette, > Hey Butch - > In one of your past posts you seemed to make a distinction between > Muslim & Islamic. Can you explain this for me? Yes .. maybe .. I hope so. ;-p Its an extremely subtle difference to a Westerner or to one who writes dictionaries .. but not to one who lives with or around the difference. I'll try to explain without rambling but it might not be possible because it is not something that one can write in 100 words or less and allow to stand alone and with meaning. Islam is one of the three monotheistic religions and the religion of the Moslems. If taken in a fundamentalist manner, it becomes a WAY of life and one totally submits themself to God and the teachings of the Koran as revealed through Mohammed (Turkish spelling .. Arabs prefer to write it as Muhammad) the Prophet of Allah (God). Islam came along around 600 years after the birth of Christ and it recognizes and holds in great esteem all of the Holy personages worshiped by Christians .. with one exception .. Mohammed fulfilled the prophacies and is the LAST Prophet; Jesus Christ was just a great Prophet .. and not the Son of God. If not taken in such a fundamentalist manner, it becomes a PART of life rather than a WAY of life. All followers of Islam are Moslems but all Moslems are not Islamists or have not been Islamized. A true follower of Islam will, during the period of fasting, work hard to ensure they don't swallow their own saliva .. they would consider it a sin and a violation of the fasting to do so. Touching pork would also be considered a dreaded sin .. as would drinking alcohol. In the Old Testament, alcohol was forbidden .. but in the New Testament, folks are drinking wine are every turn. As I was raised a Baptist, my Sunday School teachers tried to rationalize that with all kinds of smoke and mirrors .. the water was bad and really all they were drinking was grape juice and the like .. but we know what they were drinking. Can we say that a Baptist or Methodist is a better or worse Christian than a Mennonite? I don't think so .. but the Mennonite is not likely to allow wine to pass his lips .. he is a fundamentalist. The Mennonite is not, however, a radical fundamentalist .. I think it would be danged hard to find one that is and I was raised in a county where a third of the population was Mennonite. Not the same for the fundamentalist Islamic .. he can easily become a radical and accept the concept of Jehad .. or Holy War. Islamism and Islamic fundamentalism are serious crimes in Turkey - have been for over 78 years since one of the most advant garde individuals of last century formed the secular Republic from the ashes of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was a man for all times. Its not easy to imagine turning the seat of Islam into a secular, democratic, western minded Republic. Woman had equal rights (in his time) long before they had to fight for them in the USA. Check this site .. click on the upper left side when you get there .. where it says A Brief Intro to Mustafa Kemal .. and then when it opens, check the links on the left hand side. http://www.ataturk.com/ The difference between Islamic or Islamism and being a devout Moslem is Sorta like the difference twixt a Suth'ran Fried Baptist preacher giving out Kool-Aid at a Sunday Pot Luck supper and that served by Reverend Jim Jones, in 1978, to 914 so-called Christian Fundamentalist followers at the People's Temple in Guyana. I hope my opinions do not upset or hurt the feelings of anyone on this list. If they do, I will apologize for the hurt .. but I will not back off the opinions I've stated here. I've spent more than half my life living/working in Moslem countries .. some places longer than others. I've felt comfortable in Egypt, Oman, Jordan, Somalia, and Turkey and have visited others like Tunisia, Morocco, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq. I was married to a western thinking Turkish lady for 21 + years .. her family was generally educated in England and the USA .. and she is now in the US while I'm in Turkey .. gotta keep at least one ocean betwixt us we do. ;-p But I can say that she was never a true Moslem as she had not been in a mosque until I took her into the Grand Mosque in Istanbul when she was 25 years old .. and now she's a Protestant. > Namaste - Lynette of Terralyn in Philadelphia, PA Ask a simple question and get a long answer. But not as long as I could give and maybe not as long as I'd like to give. One of these days when I have more time, I'll repost some of the many articles I've written on Turkey .. the only secular, democratic, western Moslem country in the world .. and the only one where you will find mosques, churches, temples and synogogues side by side on the streets .. As Rome is the seat of the Vatican, the Holy Church, Istanbul is STILL TODAY the seat of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch and the Armenian Patriarch. Turkey is the site of the world's first Christian Church as well as the Seven Churches of the Revelation. I've visited all the ancient sites and have them on video - with the appropriate background music and narration. It's also the stomping grounds of Saint Nicolas - the modern-day Santa. I'll tell y'all a bit more some day .. there is much to tell. :-p Y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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