Hydrosol Questions - Long

[Guest guest]

Hi Butch,

 

 

Butch Writes:

One thing about long posts with lots of

questions .. they generally go

to the bottom of the stack when folks answer

cause they become major projects. ;-p But I'm

happy to see that you have so many questions and

also that they are very pertinent questions.

 

My answer:

I was afraid after I wrote it that is what would

happen. ; )

 

Butch Writes:

Hawhawhaw ... Many folks think nothing of adding

EOs to their food ... but that's not really

ingesting - is it? ;-p

 

My answer:

Well I ate it... : ) but I also took a tablespoon

of Olive Oil with 2 drops of your O. dubium

(Linalool type). Tasted nasty so I bought some

honey and took it once a day too.

 

 

Butch Writes:

But I expect that inhalation is more rapid than

ingestion .. though its not just a matter of

getting them into the bloodstream at this point

... that is, when we're trying to kick Big Bad Bug

Butts.

 

My answer:

That is interesting. I thought ingesting would

be quicker than inhalation. It is great to learn

new things on a daily basis.

 

Butch Writes:

Marilyn Nicolson and her husband do this

regularly .. Butch Owen drinks Oregano Hydrosol

weekly .. as does Professor Dr. Husnu Baser and

his family (says he) .. and so do many of the

people in Turkey. Oregano Hydrosol is available

in supermarkets. Its great for stomach problems

and is a immune system builder .. among other

things.

 

My answer:

So for someone like me who has been ill 90% of

their life and whose immune system is totally out

of wack would benefit from drinking it.

 

You say you drink it once a week. Do you believe

that drinking it once daily for a week is too

much? Not asking for recommendation because

neither of us are licensed to practice medicine

but your opinion is highly regarded.

 

Butch Writes:

Since its the only book out on Hydrosols its the

one folks use .. but I am sure she will make many

corrections if/when she reprints it. There's

a need for that. Suzanne Catty's book is not

perfect - like every other book in print, it has

problems and we gotta be careful not try to

create

doctrine based on a book. Just in the first few

pages we find ...

 

I didn't get past page 15 yet, and I'm not one to

get down on folks who write books because its a

very difficult undertaking. BUT, the errors I

speak of add to the ignorance, rumor,

misinformation and disinformation that is common

in this cottage-industry. I don't think avoiding

comment or challenge is right. When we write a

book, we are open for criticism.

 

My answer:

A few months ago you commented on the errors and

I had ordered the book but not received it. Your

comments as well as knowing how much

extrapolation is in many books on the market were

kept in the front of my mind as I read it.

 

Butch Writes:

What are we testing for?

 

My answer:

Testing the pH to see if it has gone bad. Or at

least that was my understanding from reading this

book and all the information sent me from Jeanne

Rose's Aromatic Plant Project.

 

Butch Writes:

When Martin Watt visited me here in Turkey, I

took him to the lab of my Rose Otto producer ..

they produce Rose Creams, Shampoos and such ..

and

we had the chemist test the pH on my new Rose

Hydrosol. We could read the results on his pH

meter and neither of us had special training.

 

My answer:

Do you recall the name of the meter? I would like

to research this further as I am trying to

understand chemistry a bit better and those

little strips are so little I can not read them!

 

Butch writes:

Rock Rose or Labdanum (Cistus ladanifer)

essential oil is RARE .. its produced from

distillation of the gum. Concrete and Absolutes

are the norm for this aromatic. But to say that

the existence of a Hydrosol means there is an EO

is not necessarily a good conclusion .. like the

folks selling Jasmine hydrosol. ;-) If we wanna

find Jasmine hydrosol we gotta make it ourselves

cause its not commercially viable. We can

make it ourselves .. and many other things .. if

we have a table top still .. see

http://www.AV-AT.com/stovestill2.html

 

My answer:

Yes I can see where my assumption - (nope won't

say it here - you and I both know what the word

'assume' means (grins)), is incorrect.

 

I have looked at your stills many times and maybe

in the future I will buy one just to check out

the distillation process on my own. That would be

extremely expensive though so maybe I should just

make a trip to visit you and the rose fields some

year during distillation.

 

> Is so would someone be kind enough to direct me

to a source > (off-list of course)?

 

I'd like for them to do it on-list. Might be

interesting. ;-p

 

My answer: It would be very interesting and that

is what I would like to have happen. I mixed up

my lists. It is on ATFE that requests names of

suppliers be kept off the list.

 

Butch Writes:

Acceptable range for what .. dermal application?

 

 

My answer:

Both Suzanne and Jeanne discuss the pH as being

necessary to determine the shelf life of the

hydrosol.

 

On page 141 Suzanne states: Hydrosols, unlike

most essential oils, have a finite shelf life.

Although it is true that some oils, notable the

conifer and expressed citrus oils, do have a

shelf life of around two years, most oils will,

if stored correctly, last indefinitely. ....

However, hydrosols are a different kettle of

fish, and we must develop a new way of thinking

to fully understand their needs.

 

Establishing and monitoring the shelf life of

hydrosols has, until now, been largely a matter

of experience combined with guesswork. The

result has been that if a distill or seller of

hydrosols actually gives them a best-before date,

it seems to be regardless of bottling standards,

storage conditions, or plant-material source.

Some people say one on everything, others say

three years on everything - they can't both be

right and they're not. Each hydrosol is totally

unique, just like the oil and plant from which it

is derived. The shelf life of each hydrosol is

also unique and is affected considerably by

storage conditions, packaging and a few chemistry

factors.

 

My conclusion would be that I will store all

hydrosols in the refrigerator same as most of my

eo's. But I would also like to test the results

that she has gotten. Why? Because I like to do

things like that and I believe, for me, that

doing so helps me to understand chemistry better.

 

 

If someone has a better way for me to determine

the shelf life of hydrosols - please tell me. I

am very curious.

 

You confirmation of sensitization with hydrosols

is appreciated. Anyone out there that has become

sensitized since using hydrosols?

 

 

> Drug Interactions: Page 185

 

Butch Writes:

 

I don't understand how or why ??? Prescription

or OTC drugs will almost always be cloned or

isolated component mixtures whereas the EO will

be

as close to a natural synergy as we can get

through distillation .. which of course, is not a

natural state of affairs in the first place.

But the important thing is that through a process

of natural selection and evolution - or survival

of the fittest .. the natural product will

contain counterbalances to its own negative

sides. Not true for the synthetic. Also, man

has evolved along with plants and the DNA of man

most closely resembles that of plants. So

between synthetics and the naturals, which one

should we think will cause the most side-effects

... or contraindications? Easy to answer this one

is.

 

My answer:

Yes the answer is easy for the scenario that you

have written. But, if a person is taking a

prescription drug to balance their serotonin

levels and they started using essential oils (or

hydrosols) that help with depression, would they

not interact? I am not saying that the

interaction would be bad for everyone but still

should a person not find out if they should use a

certain eo or hydrosol if they are taking

prescription medicines for a health problem? In

many of the herbal books I read and comments I

have heard on many of the lists is that with

homeopath medicines - a person must inform of the

prescription medicines so that they do not have

problems with the homeopathic remedy.

 

Butch Writes:

OK. ;-p I'm glad you took the time to ask these

questions. Learning comes from inquiry .. and

replying to inquiry. I had to put my dusty

thinking cap on to reply to this. ;-)

 

My answer:

 

hehehe - good glad I was able to help....

 

Butch writes:

 

Welcome you are .. and I wish I had more to add.

I can refer you to an article written by Martin

Watt .. it was published in the last edition

of the IFA journal.

 

My answer: I am not a r to the IFA

Journal. I will send Martin an email asking

about a copy. Maybe he will post it on his

website.

 

 

Thank you for the time you took to answer this.

I highly appreciate it.

 

Cheryl Smith

Anchorage AK

 

 

 

 

Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site

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[Guest guest]

Hey Cheryl,

 

One thing about long posts with lots of questions .. they generally go

to the bottom of the stack when folks answer cause they become major

projects. ;-p But I'm happy to see that you have so many questions and

also that they are very pertinent questions.

 

> Hi everyone,

>

> Hope this finds you feeling a bit better Chris. We just got over

> the flu up here. I re-read all of Butch's posts and the additional

> testimonies about using Oregano. I must say it worked great for me.

 

Glad they do .. I hope Oregano EO continues to work well for you and I

believe it will.

 

> I added some to my soup everyday.

 

Hawhawhaw ... Many folks think nothing of adding EOs to their food ...

but that's not really ingesting - is it? ;-p

 

> My life partner did not feel comfortable ingesting so he sniffed

> from the bottle. It took him twice as long to feel better.

 

It'll work .. of course, the quickest way to get something into the

blood is injection .. not pertinent for essential oils. But I expect

that inhalation is more rapid than ingestion .. though its not just a

matter of getting them into the bloodstream at this point .. that is,

when we're trying to kick Big Bad Bug Butts.

 

> My question is: Does anyone drink water with oregano hydrosol

> (actually any of the hydrosols)added to it? If not why not? If

> so is it safe to do so and how did it help you?

 

Marilyn Nicolson and her husband do this regularly .. Butch Owen drinks

Oregano Hydrosol weekly .. as does Professor Dr. Husnu Baser and his

family (says he) .. and so do many of the people in Turkey. Oregano

Hydrosol is available in supermarkets. Its great for stomach problems

and is a immune system builder .. among other things.

 

> I like Suzanne Catty's book on 'Hydrosols The Next Aromatherapy',

> but would like other opinions.

 

Since its the only book out on Hydrosols its the one folks use .. but I

am sure she will make many corrections if/when she reprints it. There's

a need for that. Suzanne Catty's book is not perfect - like every other

book in print, it has problems and we gotta be careful not try to create

doctrine based on a book. Just in the first few pages we find ...

 

On page 12:

 

" Water with fragrance oil or other synthetic comnpounds added to it is

not hydrosol, nor are the cohobated distillation waters, with the

exception of rose and melissa, which are virtually unavailable in any

other form. "

 

My comments .. TRUE and FALSE. TRUE that the two mentioned are always

cohobated but they are not necessarily the only ones cohobated. FALSE

in that cohobation is not an issue that would preclude ANY cohobated

waters from being hydrosols. Cohobation is only undertaken when an

inordinately high percentage of an expensive EO remains in the waters.

Depending on cost of the oil, energy and labor cost, and the percentage

of oil that could probably be recovered versus those overhead costs, a

decision is made to cohobate or not to cohobate.

 

Then Suzanne Catty writes: " Cohobation means the hydrosols are recycled

repeatedly through the plant material in the still to extract the

maximum amount of water-soluable components.

 

My comments: This is FALSE - it is not done that way and I think she

must have asked someone's opinion on this rather than having witnessed

what she is writing about herself. The reasons it is untrue are:

 

1. There is no repeated recycling.

 

2. The waters are not recycled though the spent plant material.

 

3. There would be no reason to do it as the plant materials have given

up all the essential oil they will give with the first distillation. It

is not a matter of trying to recover more EO from the spent plant matter

but rather an exercise to recover more EO from the distilled waters.

 

4. The plant materials remaining from a hydro-distillation of rose

petals, for example, are such that it couldn't be done if one wanted to

because they are packed solid as a rock after distillation.

 

The facts on cohobation following production of Rose Otto: The heavily

oil-laden waters are cohobated in a separate still ONE TIME to retrieve

the lion's share (75% or more) of the Rose Otto - Rose Otto is (I think)

a bit more hydrophilic than some other essential oils.

 

I didn't get past page 15 yet, and I'm not one to get down on folks who

write books because its a very difficult undertaking. BUT, the errors I

speak of add to the ignorance, rumor, misinformation and disinformation

that is common in this cottage-industry. I don't think avoiding comment

or challenge is right. When we write a book, we are open for criticism.

 

> 1. On page 46 (top of the page) she says that drinking neroli

> hydrosol in your water will help relieve stress.

 

I have no personal info on that .. it might be true and it might be

extrapolation based on the known therapeutic properties of Neroli.

Search AT books and we'll find lots of extrapolation .. and much of it

is based on attempts to transfer therapeutic values of plant materials

to the distilled oils.

 

If we find someone who claims to have experience with all the oils and

what they do for us, we'll find a world class BS'er .. methinks.

 

> 2. On the same page under Hydrosol Remedies she states "

> Hydrosols can be used the same way as the tincture in homeopathy. "

 

I don't know beans about homeopathy. Lots of folks on this list do.

 

> 3. What is the best way for someone to test the hydrosols in

> their home? Especially those people who have difficulty reading

> those chemical strips.

 

What are we testing for? The percentage of EO in a hydrosol depends on

the hydrosol. Those that are produced from expensive materials, like

Rose Otto and Melissa, are always cohobated so the percentage will be

like 1% or so .. less expensive ones like Tea Tree, Rosemary, Oregano

and the like can go much higher .. as much as 10% or more. I don't test

my hydrosols because I test the oils from which the hydrosol remained

after distillation .. to me, testing further would be a waste of money

as it would not tell me about purity and quality .. or EO percentage.

 

> 4. On page 143 she discusses a meter for measuring pH content.

> Does anyone know what this meter is and if it is easy to read by

> the non-chemist?

 

When Martin Watt visited me here in Turkey, I took him to the lab of my

Rose Otto producer .. they produce Rose Creams, Shampoos and such .. and

we had the chemist test the pH on my new Rose Hydrosol. We could read

the results on his pH meter and neither of us had special training.

 

> I would love to check out Rock Rose. Suzanne talks about a

> hydrosol which means that there is eo, correct?

 

Rock Rose or Labdanum (Cistus ladanifer) essential oil is RARE .. its

produced from distillation of the gum. Concrete and Absolutes are the

norm for this aromatic. But to say that the existence of a Hydrosol

means there is an EO is not necessarily a good conclusion .. like the

folks selling Jasmine hydrosol. ;-) If we wanna find Jasmine hydrosol

we gotta make it ourselves cause its not commercially viable. We can

make it ourselves .. and many other things .. if we have a table top

still .. see http://www.AV-AT.com/stovestill2.html

 

> Is so would someone be kind enough to direct me to a source

> (off-list of course)?

 

I'd like for them to do it on-list. Might be interesting. ;-p

 

> 5. Has anyone come up with a range of pH of different hydrosols

> that would assist home users to know their hydrosols are within

> acceptable ranges?

 

Acceptable range for what .. dermal application? A hydrosol is going

to have pretty much the same pH everytime .. its just a matter of what

it is when it exits that still. One reason to test pH is to see if the

seller has added a synthetic preservative (there exists NO safe, natural

preservatives) to the hydrosol. Many do .. and still claim that their

products are natural. Methinks adding synthetics to something takes

away the ability to claim they're totally natural .. and I don't use

preservatives in my hydrosols. But the main point is that the addition

of a preservative will lower the pH .. any EO chemist can detect it.

 

> 6. Suzanne states, (page 169), that hydrosols are safe undiluted

> on the skin. If hydrosols are safe to use undiluted on the skin,

> should we still not watch out for sensitizing?

 

YES ... we should be concerned with sensitization .. depending on the

frequency of use if we are not sensitized already and if we are, then

one time will probably be enough to kick our butt. Its NOT TRUE that

all hydrosols are safe to use undiluted on the skin. Its a matter of

the approximate percentage of EO in the hydrosol. I can tell you that

my Oregano Hydrosol has a higher percentage of EO than has been tested

as a safe for dermal application .. per Plant Aromatics.

 

> Many aromatherapists have used lavender neat and as Marge says,

> become sensitized.

 

Yep ... and there's more and more cases of Aussies becoming sensitized

to Tea Tree for the same reason. Nothing bothers me more than seeing

(50 times a month) folks saying NO essential oils should be used neat

EXCEPT Lavender and Tea Tree. Its just not true and they don't even go

to the trouble of identifying the botanical name of the Lavender they

claim is safe. Try to argue with them and they get upset .. say they

have been doing it for years and humma-humma. Fact is, they've just

been lucky .. like folks who drive drunk for years and haven't died yet.

 

> Wouldn't these people be unable to use Lavender Hydrosol neat

> because hydrosols still contain essential oils even if they

> don't contain " all " the properties of the oil?

 

CORRECT .. they should NOT use them. The fact that a Hydrosol will more

closely resemble the actual chemical profile of the plant than will an

EO is not the point here. Granted, the EO will only have the non-water

soluable chemical components .. and the Hydrosol will have that plus the

water soluable components. But odds are better than great that a person

who became sensitized in the first place did so from using an EO .. not

from using a hydrosol. And the EO is in the Hydrosol. Beside that, it

is not the EO the person is sensitized to .. its one or more of the

chemical components of the EO. Those same chemical compounds might be

found in their favorite food and they will react the same way then.

 

> Drug Interactions: Page 185

>

> quote: " There are many reference books available on pharmaceutical

> drugs, which include their side effects and information about

> contraindications and possible effects in combination with other

> drugs and chemicals. " ..... " So cross-referencing eo's with

> pharmaceuticals can be very important.

 

I don't understand how or why ??? Prescription or OTC drugs will almost

always be cloned or isolated component mixtures whereas the EO will be

as close to a natural synergy as we can get through distillation ..

which of course, is not a natural state of affairs in the first place.

But the important thing is that through a process of natural selection

and evolution - or survival of the fittest .. the natural product will

contain counterbalances to its own negative sides. Not true for the

synthetic. Also, man has evolved along with plants and the DNA of man

most closely resembles that of plants. So between synthetics and the

naturals, which one should we think will cause the most side-effects ..

or contraindications? Easy to answer this one is.

 

> Many phytomedicine texts and books on phytopharmacology will

> also include information on possible interactions and

> contraindications between various herbs and herbal preparations. "

 

Maybe .. I can't comment on this as I don't read many phytomedicine

texts. Hopefully someone else can comment.

 

> Question: Out of the many reference books available at places

> like The American Botanical Council to cross-reference eo's with

> pharmaceutical drugs, what are some recommendations that I might

> study further? I do not wish to spend money on books that are not

> correct or really helpful.

 

I have no idea.

 

> Well this has gotten long enough even though I am sure there are

> many more questions that I have.

 

OK. ;-p I'm glad you took the time to ask these questions. Learning

comes from inquiry .. and replying to inquiry. I had to put my dusty

thinking cap on to reply to this. ;-)

 

> Thanks in advance,

 

Welcome you are .. and I wish I had more to add. I can refer you to an

article written by Martin Watt .. it was published in the last edition

of the IFA journal. I don't totally agree with his opinion on drinking

hydrosols .. but I agree with pretty much everything else. And the need

to test hydrosols is a logical given though I doubt you'll find many

folks around who can show you a certificate of testing .. we have ours

tested every 90 days at Superior Laboratories, Inc. which has EPA and

USDA Accreditation, located at 2514 Billingsley Rd, Columbus, OH, (614)

793-8778. The last testing was conducted on 30 September 2002.

 

http://www.aromamedical.demon.co.uk/new/hydrolates.htm

 

> Cheryl Smith

> Anchorage AK

 

Regards and y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

 

Bulk/Wholesale/Retail GC Tested EO, Rose Otto, Hydrosols and other nice

things shipped to you from downtown Friendsville, MD .. pop: 600